Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER "STRESSED," INMATES NONSTOP HARRASS THRU AIR VENTS, FED TO SEEK DEATH PENALTY?

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

Bryan Kohberger complains inmates are harassing him through vents in the prison. He was moved to solitary confinement, according to the Idaho Department of Corrections, housed in restrictive housing of the J Block in the Idaho Maximum Security Institution. Inmates live in single-person cells, provided a shower every other day and allowed one hour of outdoor recreation daily, according to IDOC.  As more evidence is release, we see more than 200 crime scene photos and videos which  show how Kohberger prepared and the brutality of the murders. One photo show a blurred,  bloodY bed. Another shows a full hand print outline on a window.    We also learn, the mother of one of the four victims received a threatening text message during Kohberger 's sentencing.    Joining Nancy Grace today, Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive   Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Worked over 300 Homicides in 25 year career, Trained the first Native American Homicide Task Force; & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Susan Hendricks- Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks  Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger stressed behind bars. Really? Inmates constantly harassing Coburger through the air vents, boo-hoo. As we learn who Coburger and his fleet of attorneys plan to blame for the murders at trial, this, as we learned, the feds could seek the death penalty even now. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

Chilling crime scene photos released in the Brian Cobur case detailing the tragic murders of the four University of Idaho students killed in the attack. The irony that now we are learning about the true brutality of these four murders after the deal is done. This, as we are learning, Brian Kerberger, is stressed behind bars. Inmates constantly harassing him through the air vents and more. But before I get to those facts, I want to go straight out to her now Psycho-Alan's, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us out of Beverly Hills. Author of Deal Breaker, you can see her now on Peacobot.

and you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, you know, I'm just a trial lawyer. You're the shrink. This is completely bass ackwards. He's stressed behind bars and he's whining because inmates are whispering to him and yelling at him through the air vents. I mean, I'm not exactly sure what a narcissist is when the whole world revolves around me,

me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. But I think that would be him. A sociopath is a narcissist on steroids. It is the same disorder, Nancy. It's a spectrum disorder. Just like narcissists lack empathy. Sociopaths have no feeling for other human beings or even for themselves, Nancy. So this whole idea that he's stressed behind bars could mean only one of two things.

One is that he's just manipulating the judge. That's it. because I don't think he feels much at all. The other is that maybe he's getting some kind of pleasure from all the attention he's getting and he just wants to talk about. The other is that he probably has not received any consequences for his actions thus far in life. So the fact that he's actually having consequences is surprising to him.

And so he has to talk about it. You know, I'm learning so much. It's all pouring out now that the deal is done. I'll tell you is probably stressed which I'm going to get to in just a moment with Susan Hendricks and Dave Mack the people that Brian Coburger

was planning to blame at trial forget about him being not guilty according to him of course which is a lie but he was actually going to compound by blaming somebody else for the murders knowing full well he's

guilty and I don't mean just some hey there was another burglar down the street the week before. No, he was actually going to blame a specific friend of the victims. And that friend of the victims would have those allegations hanging over his head the rest of his life, even though Coburger knew he was guilty. That takes a certain mindset. You're not just claiming I'm guilty, don't seem me to the death penalty.

You're actually blaming another person. And Philip DuBay, without going to DefCom 4 in the law, Well, guys, Dubay, a veteran trial lawyer joining us out of the L.A. jurisdiction, Dubay, for a defendant to blame a third person. It's the Saad Defense. SOD, some other dude did it. You can't just say, hey, crime statistics are up in this neighborhood with burglary, so it's one of them. To bring in some other dude did it, you have to have an actual dude. You have to have. It can't be an amorphous.

Maybe this person did it. Maybe you have to have somebody you're going to blame under the law. That's the law in every jurisdiction. So Coburger's defense had actually picked out somebody to blame. It's not enough. You have to show more than means, motive, and opportunity. You have to show that there is corroborating evidence linking that alternate perpetrator, if you go, to the crime itself. And that's why you have a judge.

and it says, look, if you can't link the two, then you're really asking a jury to find unreasonable doubt as to who the real perpetrator is. And the judge will step in and shut it. You know, what I'm taking that to mean that you're trying to say, yes, the defendant must point to a specific person. And in this case, the defense had created a lot of links between that person and the victims, knowing, full, well, and ultimately pleading guilty to the murders? I mean, Dr. Bethany Marshall, back to me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, Brian Coburger,

who is stressed behind bars. He actually had a scapegoat that he was willing to take down for that person forever to have that dark cloud over them. Hey, maybe he did it. For the rest of his life, for the rest of his family's lives. So Coburger could walk free. That's a whole other layer of evil right there. Not just I didn't do it.

Believe me, Jerry, but he did it. Blame him. That's pretty bold. Wouldn't you say that to me? Oh, yeah. Nancy, you referenced narcissism earlier. You know, the primary feature, again, is lack of empathy towards others. The second feature of malignant narcissism is destructiveness.

People who are malignant narcissists want to take everything. down around them. The destruction could be committing homicide or for anybody who's married to a malignant narcissist. It could be destroying your friends, isolating you from other people, total lack of remorse over what happens to you. And then when you get a sociopath on steroids, you have the addition of cruelty, which is not just dragging other people in because you don't care about them, but you enjoy seeing other people sweat, cry, bleed, whatever it is, get pleasure from that. Straight out to Dave Matt, crime stories, investigative reporter. Who exactly was Brian Coburger planning to blame for four vicious murders? This is a whole

another layer of evil. As just now, after the deal is already done, Syndtelden delivered on that guilty plea to escape the death penalty, now we're learning about the brutal nature of the crimes more and more details of him lying in wait, walking around the murder scene, even finding and tracing his trail footsteps in the snow. Coburger left behind. But we're learning his defense. His defense was to blame an innocent person.

Dave Mack, who did Coburger plan to blame? Of the four people he planned to blame, one of them was Kaylee Gonzovett's ex-boyfriend, known as J.D., who, she shared the dog Murphy with. They actually had that as their first child. And that's who he planned to put all of this

on. Dave, Mac, did I hear you say that there were four people he planned to blame? They did. And Nancy, three of the four, by the way, we don't have the names of any of them, but three of the four had an acquaintance or some type of social

or other media involvement with one of the roommates. But it came out that Kayla Gonzalez had an ex-boyfriend who she actually tried to contact that morning. If you remember, there were several phone calls that Kaylee and Maddie made to the ex-boyfriend. And it was, you know, talking of, they had a good relationship, even though they were broken up. Their families actually fully expected them to get back together. They were just going through a down phase.

But they did share the dog, Murphy. That was a mutually owned pet. And that's what they were communicating about. So, Coburger plan, his offense team was to. Roll this ex-boyfriend under the bus and blame him for everything. Guys, earlier, you heard Dubay, and he was correct, where the defense creates links between the phantom perpetrator and the crime. And in this case, and correct me if I'm wrong, Susan Hendricks joining us and Dave Mack,

there were four individuals, Coburger, planned to blame for the murders. one, the ex-boyfriend, and the other, speaking of those links that Dubay brought up, the judge even noticed that three of the friends lived within walking distance of the King Road scene, right? So it's placing them in the scene. They were friends, and they had likely been in the home, and their fingerprints or their DNA would be in the home. Clearly, the ex-boyfriend fingerprints or DNA would be in the home. The point is, those links between some other dude and the murders could easily be demonstrated by fingerprints and DNA, three living within walking distance, one having had a romantic relationship with one of the victims. Those would be the links that Koberger would capitalize upon to blame somebody else.

And what I'm saying, Susan Hendricks with us now, investigative reporter and author of an incredible book, Down the Hill, My Descented to the Double Murder in Delphi, Susan, blaming somebody else and naming them by name to have that forever hanging over their head, that's not why he's stressed behind bars, that he was going to stab somebody else in the back. He stressed behind bars because the inmates are whispering to him through the vents, calling him the killer and he's whining about it. Seriously? Absolutely. It's all about Brian Koberger and it always has been. And sadly, it doesn't surprise me. The finger pointing, Nancy, I saw it in Delphi with the Odinus theory and names were named. Meanwhile, the judge said, hey, there's no connection. He can't

use the third party dissent. But he didn't care. And bringing up Kaylee's ex, they were on and off high school sweetheart, Jack Declure. They called each other several times that night. Also, Maddie tried to call him. And he was cleared by police and he just disappeared because he was being harassed and there was finger pointing. This is before Coburger was arrested. But it doesn't surprise me at all that Coburger only cares about himself and being stressed because of what he's going through, not the lives he destroyed. I mean, Dr. Bethany Marshall, don't you know that Brian Coburger and his defense team were just salivating, drooling when they learned. the ex-boyfriend was scheduled to come in and give fingerprints at the Moscow police station.

They're like, hey, jackpot, let's blame him. Regardless of what would do to the ex-boyfriend and the three other friends they planned to blame, what it would do to their lives. That meant nothing to them. It was like, oh, happy day for them. It meant absolutely nothing that these kids and these are college kids, their reputations would be ruined for the rest of their life. But you know what it also shows, Nancy, is that.

the level of methodical planning that Koberger engaged in. His whole life was organized around eventually committing this crime, from being a criminology student to being a security guard, to getting girls' numbers at bars, to trying to be, you know, more outward and outgoing than he really was. He thought about this for years, Nancy. So I wouldn't be surprised if learning who was living on that block and who the girls were dating and the ins and outs of the, their lives were also a part of the sick, twisted fantasy life that he engaged in. Probably, this is so sick, I hate to even say it, but even imagining the sex lives of these girls with their boyfriends and the nature of the interactions and maybe even in a cruel sadistic

way wanting to throw those boys under the bus because they got the girl, not him. Okay, you know what? Very often when trying cases, I would ask a witness to repeat something, something that was particularly probative or impactful? I need to hear what you just said because we have uncovered a friend of Coburgers that said, Coburg, incessantly talked about wanting a girlfriend. I think he was an in-cell and voluntary celibate. That's neither here nor there at this juncture. But it fits in with what you just said. Okay, very slowly. Say that again because it just hit me as he was digging up and trying to create who they're going to blame the sexual enjoyment he may have had about thinking of the friend what were you saying he wasn't just

a sadist nancy he was a voyeur and incels hate women because they can't get them and he had a long history of not being able to get a girlfriend or to have a satisfactory relationship so part of the preparation for the crime was a lurid fascination with the sex lives of these girls. And part of that was identifying their boyfriends, men who may have lived on the block, spying on them, being incredibly seethingly envious and jealous of those relationships, wanting to destroy them, and wanting to throw these young men under the bus to get them out of the way as sexual rivals. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dave Mack joining us.

Dave Mack, it went a long way. It went a good distance as far as defenses go, trying to frame the other four individuals. Tell me about it. What were they digging up in order to blame the other people? The defense claimed that three of the four suspects were within walking distance of the King Road House. So they had, you know, an opportunity to be right there when they needed to be. So that was one of the big things that they had about these possible alternate suspects. Philip DeBay, have you ever had a twin case?

And what I mean by that is when you're defendant, it's every prosecutor's worst nightmare and it's every defense attorney's favorite dream. when the PURP actually has a twin, and the DNA is extremely similar. I actually had a murder case where there was a twin. Yeah. So the point is they, the defendant will do anything to blame somebody else. And in this case, you've got the texting to the ex-boyfriend, you've got the friends down the street. I'm sure they could have dredged up some type of a misunderstanding or a disagreement or anything to support those theories. Of course. And by the way, I've had that. Not often, I believe

twice in my career, one was a sex trafficking murder where they found a prostitute dumped in a hefty bag off the freeway here in Southern California. And fortunately, legally, the defendant had an identical twin. They filed nonetheless because they had ample evidence. evidence, putting him in his car at the scene where the body was done. Now, having said that, even if you want to blame an identical twin, there has to be more than just the motive means and opportunity and matching DNA. There has to be something that links that twin to the crime, not necessarily socially or interactively with the victim or victims.

They have to be linked to the... Wait, wait, can I just save your breath? We got a lot to get into the program tonight. night. They had that link because they had fingerprints and DNA of all four of the potential suspects at the crime scene because they had been probably more than they had of Koberger. Of course, their DNA wasn't on the knife hilt. I mean, you know, Joe Scott Morgan, joining me, Professor Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics Jacksonal State University, author of Blood beneath my feet on Amazon and start of a hit new series body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

We are also now learning about the horrific brutality of these crimes, but my point to you for right now anyway, Joe Scott, is that none of those four individuals, DNA or fingerprints, were anywhere connected to the crime, not on the victim's bodies, not in a bloody fingerprint, not on the murder weapon sheath. So, you know what? Technical legal term, I don't know if you've ever heard this. Coburger was screwed because his DNA was on the knife sheath. And not just the sheath on where he had pressed in the snap.

I mean. Yeah, it's a major problem for them. But here, like that, let me give you this. And this is so disgusting to me on the part of the defense. Okay, so you've got action. says you being the defense to all of this imagery you see everything inside of that house you know how brutal this event was i'm not going to say event massacre was inside of that thank you i was about my head was blowing off when you called it an event like it's a church social or a bridal shower

it's not an event it's a quadruple murder where ethan's arterial blood squirted up on the ceiling and now learning Joe Scott, he was half hanging off the bed, half hanging off Zana's bed, where his jugular had been slashed. Yeah, right, you are. And it was, the environment was just super saturated with blood. The defense was aware of this. So you're telling me going down this road as long as they'd gone, remember, it was just a few days before they reached this deal that they were still, you know, kind of putting this out there that there was somebody else involved. Why is it that you care so little about the community around this location that's never experienced anything like this,

that you're not climbing up onto the roof of every house there screaming it, that there is still a murderer out there, we have their name, we have the information. No, you're allowing the people in this area to walk around in fear. And that's what's so obscene about this, Nancy, that they go down this road and they believe that there is somebody out there that has the ability to commit this level of violence, but yet they're not going to interdict it. They're not going to help the community at all.

They just let this person roam loose. So if you've got that information, let it go. I don't care about the fantasy world of courtroom right here. I'm talking about the real environment at the scene. And there's a major disconnect here. I don't know where their moral compass is because I've got to tell you, the needle's broken. on it, Nancy. Unrecognizable because of the stabs to her face.

So many stab wounds. So many stab wounds. It's unbelievable. He brutalized each and every one of them. Only now is the brutality of these crimes leaking. We're now finding out how horrific the crime scene really was after being told at the get-go they were killed in their sleep. They probably didn't even know what hit them.

B.S. Now, will the feds seek the death penalty on Brian Koberger? Listen to this. Over objections from the victim's families, the Moscow Police Department releases hundreds of crime scene photos and videos related to the investigation. One of the shocking photos is blurred as it is a picture of a bed where one victim was murdered. We have all heard of double jeopardy. Which means, for instance, Ordenthal James Simpson, O.J. Simpson,

was acquitted of double murder. Even if he later confessed, such as in his video and book, if I did it, please stop. Still couldn't retry him at the state level. However, feds have a death penalty. It is not considered double jeopardy because the feds are considered a different jurisdiction, so to speak, a different sovereign,

as opposed to the state system where he took the weak plea. Example, Luigi Mangione. The feds swooped in and are prosecuting him on what could have been state charges. We all remember the Rodney King case and more. So straight out to Philip Dubay joining us, DeBay, it is entirely possible for the feds to seek the death penalty in this case, for many reasons, including crossing state lines from Pullman, Moscow. But explain in a nutshell, this is not a law review article, just explain in a nutshell how this could happen. And obviously, Coburger's doctoral curriculum did not include federal jurisdiction.

The bottom line is this, that the Feds have authority to prosecute any murder where a defendant uses interstate travel or interstate communications lines because there is a federal interest to capture, apprehend, and prosecute anybody that does that. And as soon as he got in the car and went from Moscow or from Pullman to Moscow and returned then to Pullman, he immediately triggered federal jurisdiction. And there are other situations as well, you know, like for example, maritime admiralty, you know, that kind of stuff. But he is absolutely at risk. Now, as a practical matter, I sincerely doubt that they will go after him. And if they did, they could seek death and the method of execution would be from the last. law of the state. And in this case, because Idaho has the firing squad, he would be subjected to that if the feds went after him. But because he pled, it pretty much closed the case out. But had he

had gone to trial, and let's say he would have been acquitted, the feds would have swooped in and gone after him. Or let's say he would have been convicted and the case is on appeal. And the feds had some concern that maybe it could get reversed, maybe because of his autism spectrum disorder, they would then come after him federally. But those would be... Wait, whoa, whoa, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on before you continue. Dr. Bethany Marshall, can we stop with the spectrum? Because that was never in all the years of him being tested and getting his Ph.D.

for Pete's sake, never was autism brought up until his defense team brought it up after he committed quadruple murder. I don't want to hear any more about all of his mental defects, his emotional problems, or the spectrum. All of that has never been proved. Those are just arguments made up by the defense, just like the argument that the ex-boyfriend and three friends committed the murders. Those are lies. Hey, look, has he been on medication for autism spectrum disorder? I haven't heard anything about that. And also, is there any medical record? He went through a Ph.D. program.

I think this is an insult to people who are neurodiverse. It's linking a mental condition with being homicidal and the two have nothing to do with each other. You know, two special guests joining us, Chris McDonough, who has been to the scene many, many times. He is the star of the interview room on YouTube, former homicide detective with over 300 homicide. investigations under his belt. You know, Chris McDonough, at this juncture with so many people, including some of the victim's families, revolting against this guilty plea, why wouldn't the feds seek justice? You know, I think it's still on the table that they could because there is a great push

from the family, specifically Kaylee's family, that wants this justice in terms of of the death penalty. So if he does, like, you know, counselor said here a bit ago, if in fact he starts pushing an appeal, I could see the feds going, hey, wait a minute, this could get out of control really fast and step in.

Could a legal loophole bring Brian Coburger to the federal death penalty, despite his weak plea deal? Yes, a legal loophole could see, Coburger faced the death penalty despite the plea deal. Why? He crossed state lines. That puts him in the crosshairs of federal charges, but will it happen? Straight out to Susan Hendricks, joining us, investigative reporter. What, if anything, do you know about the possibility the feds could still swoop in? Absolutely, as you said, there is a possibility, and I know who's hoping for that.

Kaylee's father because as we're getting more information, it's being uncovered that he said, look, this investigation was bossed in terms of the prosecution, what the families wanted. He even went on to say that he believes they were separating the families and hitting them against each other so they wouldn't bond together and say, no, we want to go to trial. We want the death penalty. And he believes the prosecution wanted this gone. And now he said he's offended because the prosecutors on a media tour. You know, exacerbating everything is that we are learning during the sentencing that Kelly Gonzalez's mother gets a death threat.

Listen. During Coburger sentencing, someone claiming to be inside the courtroom was terrorizing the mother of Kaylee Gonzalez. Christy Gonzalez received an anonymous death threat on her phone during the sentencing hearing. The text reads, sitting near you in court and watching you is a joke. You know that Brian is innocent. But that is in all. The message continues,

I am in contact with a lot of serial killers, including BTK, and I've been in contact with a wannabe serial killer who is in Moscow, Idaho, and I have given him your address. Kaylee's dad, Steve, says authorities are investigating the messages. And then let me ask you, did you, on November 13, 2022, Enter the residence at 1122 King Road in Moscow, Idaho, with the intent to commit the felony crime with her name. Can you know what? I hope they just have to help.

They're not helping no place. Can you imagine after everything the Gonzalva's family has lived through and are still living through, along with the other victim's families, that Mrs. Gonzalez was actually gets a death threat as she, is sentencing in the sentencing hearing to you, Susan Hendricks investigative reporter, therefore the sentencing exactly what happened. Yeah, absolutely. There was a threat sent to Kelly's mother during this. I was inside of that courtroom and we didn't know it at the time, but now it's starting to make sense.

Why Speed stood behind his wife during her victim impact statement, I think to say, hey, I'm protecting my wife. imagine the worst day you could ever imagine in your life facing the monster that did this to your daughter and someone inside is threatening you but the woman next to me the public was allowed in they had to wait in line as did I hours before the night before she believed that he was not guilty the Brian co-worker was not guilty and so I'm thinking now was it her who wrote that who wrote it I'm thinking who was in that courtroom and who had the audacity the nerve To send that to Kaylee's mother, it's shit.

Of all people, Dr. Bethany Marshall, to send that to a victim's mother in the middle of sentencing? What? Who are these people? Nancy, there want to be sociopathic killers. I mean, it is not surprising to me at all that a court trial like this would draw other little mini-cobergers who are admiring him, who are living. salaciously off of the details of the crime, want to hear every little minute of it and even put their toe over the line by making a death threat themselves. So this does not surprise me at all. And in fact, I think in court cases like this, people should be more carefully screened to see what

their background is, what their interest is, because a lot of them are what we call offender identified. You know what's interesting, Dr. Bethany? This is at the Senate. where he has already pled guilty and he's being sentenced, yet people are still deluded and insisting that he is innocent and going so far as to make a death threat on the mom. I mean, exactly what was the threat, Susan Hendricks? What did the threat say to Mrs. Consolvis? The threat said something to the effect of that they know

that Coburger is innocent and threatening harm against the family. I mean, the lowest of the low, but I've seen it in other cases as well. I go back to Daupha. I mean, people are sick. Even when he pled guilty, he said he's guilty. And they're saying, no,

not so. It says, I'm sitting near you in court and watching you is a joke. That's what they're saying to Kili's mom. You know, Brian is innocent. That's not all the message said. It says, quote, I am in contact with a lot of serial killers, including

BTK, buying torture, killed Dennis Rader, and I've been put in contact with a wannabe serial killer who is in Moscow, and I've given him your address. Yeah, that threat should be taken seriously. That is an overt threat. And what I don't get to you, Chris McDonough, the same people that are responsible for this weak plea deal are investigating that threat? How hard can it be to find out who sent a text? Yeah, you know, this is one sick puppy, whoever this individual is. And it is not very hard at all to track that number down. A lot of people believe that once you get a burner phone, that there's no way of getting, you know, a connection back to who may have that in their position. But in fact, there is. And it's a system called Hooster, W-H-O-O-O-S-T-E-R, and they will find you.

This as now we're learning about the true brutality of these crimes. Why was that not released sooner? Because there would have been a riot at the courthouse. As a result of these, please, listen. Many of the photos released are so gruesome, they are heavily blurred. In surveillance video from a neighboring house, time is documented that appears to show Coburger driving around the neighborhood for 15 minutes before stopping. The video documents what seems to be noise coming from 1122 King Road at 417 and 40 seconds. What sounds like a thud, followed by a person crying, then a dog begins barking.

You just heard about video that is now just being released. The video is accompanied with audio, and it is actually painful to listen to, because you hear what sounds like a thud, which is clearly one of the four victims falling to the ground. Some enhanced versions, you hear a whimper, and then you hear the dog. Murphy began barking violently, I wonder what Coburger's reaction would be hearing this. Listen. You know, Joe Scott Morgan just hearing that, I'm only going to play it once. I don't want to hear it over and over and over. It's the sound of one of the victims getting stabbed and falling to the ground. I don't know which victim.

One of the victims, one of the female victims, stabbed 20, 30 times in the face. Was it her? and you hear the dog going berserk, it's just to put yourself at that moment knowing that's what's happening. Right then, it's excruciating to me. Yes, it is. Yeah, it is, Nancy.

And, you know, there's been these little bits of information that have come out that when you take them all in context, it just, it's like a gut punch. For me, when I first watched the surveillance video, that raw video, there's not much that makes me uncomfortable any longer at this point in my life. This did, because when you get to that mark on this recording where you know that this is going down, it's quite chilling. But Nancy, kind of a redirect on me, I've got to tell you something. Those images from inside of the house, and this is coupled with this video, Nancy, when you look at Kaylee's room,

there's a shot of the floor in there. And if you look very carefully, look straight down, see those droplets of blood right there? Do you know what that means? Those are passive blood droplets. He was standing there with a knife in his hand, not moving. For each one of those droplets that you see, that's a passive drop that comes off of the tip of that blade or off of his clothing and just drips. Think about how long he lingered there and just kind of observing what he had done

thinking about it. Where do I go next? What do I do? And yet, I haven't seen, obviously, the horrific images of blood, but just that alone, coupled with a timestamp on that video that's rolling, you know the dynamic in this house. He's in control at that moment in time, and he has just butchered these precious kids one by one, and he's contemplating where to go next, what to do next. You know, Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist and author. Everyone said, why didn't the dog bark? The dog barked his head off. Yeah. And I think that barking as I'm listening to it may have saved Dylan's life because at that point I'm thinking he thought, okay, I've got to get out of here at this time. And as we're listening and watching

Nancy, what shocked me as well, I listen to Steve Gonzalez, talk about, I guess I automatically think they take the families aside and say, okay, we're going to release this now. No, they're seeing this on the news as we are. And he said, I believe that everyone should have information, but of course not the most gruesome photos of their children. And it's part of the course. I mean, this family's been through hell, and they continue to be blindsided by all of this.

And they have to go through FOIA requests in court if they want to block anything from being released. It's just making everything more difficult and horrific for the family. As you just heard, investigative reporter Susan Hendrick state, All of these horrific photos, videos, audios are being released without the family's consent. Just like the plea deal was reached without the family's consent. All done in secret.

Why? When things are done in secret, that makes me very suspicious about the motive. To Justice Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author and star of Body Baggs with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, I want to talk about what we are learning regarding the brutality of these crimes. Every time there's another data dump, it just gets worse.

And I imagine there's a lot more that hasn't been released yet. Yeah, there has been. And, you know, I think that I think that kind of the tranche of images that have been released to this point, maybe less than 200, I would suspect in forensics, Nancy, when we're documented scene, and you well know this, there's going to be thousands of these images that have been taken all over the course of this thing. But what we can establish here, I think, is a pattern of movement on the part of this perpetrator as they move through this residence, killing one by one, these kids. That's the most striking thing. And look,

Look, listen, I know the family doesn't want these photos out there, but I have to give high marks to the police in this bit. They're in control of these images because they have, I think, strategically released them as opposed to these things just coming out on the Internet and being dumped all at once. And this is kind of a slow, slow burn. I think that we'll probably see more. They're in control of these images. I think there's a lot more information that we would all like to know. But you have to think about the families at the end of the day. They are, the kids are gone, but the families remain, and they are the true victims now that the kids are gone.

They are the true victims, and they're going to be paying the price for this for the remainder of their days. And now they can think about all the weirdos pouring over the graphic videos and photos of their children. Listen. Shocking crime scene photos taken hours after the massacre shows a horrifying scene. Blood splatter, clearly visible on the walls and doors, blood drops and cast off photographed on the hardwood floors, and blood on the victim's bedding. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining a psychoanalyst, how many times do you think Brian Coburger poured over these photos and why? Oh, he poured over them continuously, as are the wannabe coburgers who are going to. to court. You know, Nancy, these co-burger wannabes, the reason they sent the death threat is that the

mighty king has fallen and now they are stepping in to take his place. That's one point. The other point is the indignities that these families are suffering. There's one aspect we haven't talked about. And that is the fact that Ethan's throat was slashed, but the other girls were stabbed multiple times. This tells me that Ethan, that that Coburg wanted to get Ethan, the only male in the house, out of the way. He was just dispensing with him. He didn't get the same sadistic pleasure stabbing him multiple times. He wanted to do that to the girls. Just like he's throwing all the rivals, the men in the neighborhood under the bus. This is one sick man, Nancy. His whole, like his guiding principle in cell as you said earlier like principle get the other men out of the way

so I can have access to the women who are rejecting me and now I hate them I'm going behind bars I am going to whine I'm going to beg I'm going to complain but all my little minions are coming into court they're stepping in after me because they're Nancy there are a lot of other co-workers behind him And that's what worries me about these crime scene photos. Not only is it disturbing and retramatizing to the families, it's stimulating to other perpetrators. They have a lot of material in their hands now to incite them to commit similar crimes. What you just said is very disturbing in that, to you, Chris McDonough, we saw Coburger pouring over prior serial killers. He was especially obsessed with Bundy and I think BTK.

His life works was studying what they did and how they got caught. And now, don't you know, serial killer wannabes all over the world are saying, note to self, don't leave knife sheath behind. And what they learned from him about disposing of the weapon, stalking the victims ahead of time, pre-planning and pre-planning and pre-planning, and only now we're learning about the brutality of the murders. Just the fact that what Dr. Bethany just said, this is giving a primer, a how-to to other serial killer wannabes. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy, and isn't that disturbing in of itself?

And let's not also forget that he has access to all of the. those digital photographs of that crime scene because the defense and the defendant get access to all of that information. So if he's even thinking about an appeal, let's think about this for a moment. He gets to take that to the Department of Corrections and have that in his cell as legal documents. And that's disturbing in of itself because he's reliving those very nights and that very crime while incarcerated. That's disturbing in of itself. Like Doc Morgan was talking about that photograph right there, he stood there and that knife, every, from that blood groove on that knife, that drop is a 90 degree, what we call 90 degree blood spatter. If you look at the other

photograph, that is arterial spray where Ethan's throat was cut and every heartbeat created that pattern of blood on the wall. Philip Dubay, defense attorney, why should Koberger get to keep these crime scene photos and pour over them and delight in them, even sexually, behind bars? Why should he get that? When the case is over, they're allowed to have it. And the reason why is it's their file. Counsel does not own the file.

We're the mere custodian of it, the guardian of it while their case is pending. but afterwards, it is theirs to have. Unfortunately, that is the law. And in fact, if you don't give it to them, the attorney can be in trouble with the state bar. Dr. Bethany Marshall, this is so wrong that these photos, graphic photos of the victims, are being released without the families okay.

And Koberger gets the photos. Can you imagine what he's doing with the photos? And they're much worse than what we're showing right now. They're photos of the dead bodies lying prone. It's much worse than what we're showing on air. Nancy, these photos are like a serial killer's pornography. Let's think about the MO of these types of crimes. It is to inflict maximum cruelty in order to achieve sexual pleasure.

That is the MO. Sadism is a perversion. People need to know that. a perversion voyeurism looking through the windows that is a perversion so now this perverse sadistic want to be serial killer has the crime scene photos what is he going to do he's going to sit in jail and masturbate all day long and we've talked about the families the indignities inflicted upon them they know this they're not stupid they're listening to the news they've studied psychopaths they know what's happening with their children's photos crime scene photos

they have to live with this for the rest of their lives now tell me exactly what's going on um one of our one of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last and she's not like you up okay oh and they saw some man in their house that's nice yeah hi and are you with the patient okay i need someone to keep the phone stop passing it around Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know for it pretty much at 4 a.m.

Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone is passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, let me go check. What will you have to? Will the feds intervene and seek the federal death penalty? Will Coburger continue to whine me, me, me, me? because the other inmates are harassing him behind bars through the air vents.

What more will we learn about the night? These four students were brutally murdered, not in their sleep. We wait as justice unfolds. And now we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Ned Bird, Wake County sheriffs, North Carolina, shot in the line of duty after 13 years in L.E. leaving behind grieving sister Mignon, American hero, deputy sheriff, Ned Bird. Nancy Gray signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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