Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER TO SUE? DID HE ACT ALONE? DEMANDS BETTER JAIL?

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

Bryan Kohberger’s incessant complaints are driving Idaho prison staff to possible drastic measures.The now 31-year-old threatens to harm himself over other inmates harassment, and writesformal complaints about his access to commissary items and the quality of his food, down tothe “type of bananas” served to him in his cell. Inside sources claim IDOC officials are so fed upwith Kohberger’s “diva” antics, they’ve approached several states to try see if he can betransferred elsewhere. Meanwhile, speculation continues that Kohberger did not murder alone due to the injuries caused to the victims. Unsealed records detail Kaylee stabbed roughly 38 times as she sleeps next to Maddie, stabbed 28 times. Ethan suffers 17 sharp force wounds while he sleeps, but Xana, clearly awake, is stabbed 67 times as she fights for her life. Xana is the only victim with blood on her feet, indicating she stood or sat upright during the attack. Kaylee and Maddie both died as a result of their stab wounds, but Kaylee also suffered asphyxial and blunt force injuries to her head. Kaylee was stabbed in her face, head, and neck at least 24 times, 11 times in the chest, and three more times in her arms. Some of the stabs punctured the outer table of her skull, and perforated her subclavian artery and vein, causing hemorrhaging in her chest. She also suffered injuries to her teeth and tongue. Investigators say it’s possible Kaylee was attacked with more than just the Kabar knife. Maddie is stabbed in her face, head, and neck 13 times, her arms 10 times, and five times in herchest, causing wounds to her lung and liver and perforations of her subclavian vein and artery.Maddie’s septum was sliced and her tongue perforated. .Joining Nancy Grace today:   Philip Dubé  - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Bethany Marshall -  Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker”  featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Chris McDonough  -  Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective,  Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room”, website: www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough  Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)   Howard Blum  - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders", website: HowardBlum.com, Instagram: howard_blum_author , Twitter/X: howardblum Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks Sydney Sumner  - Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger to sue? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Brian Coburger is suing somebody for money after he's convicted of murdering four people. He's suing. And tonight, there is a growing sentiment, not by me, but by them, that Coburger did not

act alone? This as, even in the last hours, Brian Coburger is demanding he be moved to better accommodations. You're not getting the Penn House Sweet, Coburger. That's not going to happen. Enjoy your gruel. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. You may have received A's in high school and college, but you're going to be getting big ds in prison. Brian Epping Coburger. He is whining? I wish for the items to be called for when this something something, the nutritional standards are not being upheld.

I don't care. It's like, blah, don't care. He doesn't like broccoli, get used to it. All rhetoric aside regarding Brian at Coburger, in the last hours, Kiela on some saws his family posted and it is heart wrenching and I want you to see it. So I'm going through some of Kaylee's things and just wet shirt that she was wearing that night. And in the pocket is her grub truck number 78.

It's the first thing that I really found that I've been looking for. It was in the top of a box. And then when I looked in the pocket and I found that ticket, I was, just takes you back to those hours, those hours right before. I had no idea what was going to happen to them. That is Kelly Gonzalez's mother, Christy, who has joined us in many, many nights.

I see holding and smelling the sweatshirt of Kelly Gonzalez. And I got to tell you something. When my daughter hugs me, it's not perfume. She just smells good. She smells like the outdoors kind of and fresh air, sun and everything good. Just watching this, I don't even hear her right now. It just makes my stomach hurt.

And it takes me back to some probative evidence that could have been used at trial if the prosecutor had any backbone of the Idaho students at that grub hub. Look, look, they're going out right now. Grub truck number 78 ticket. There they are, and they're having so much fun. It's super late at night. And they're just live in life, you know, just having so much fun with me. is Chris McDonough. He is the star over at the Cole Case Foundation. He is a former homicide detective who has worked over 300 homicide cases. He is the star of the interview room on the YouTube channel where I found him. But for my purposes tonight, he has walked every square

inch all around that King Road address to wear the trucks or the food trucks. And Chris, seeing Christy Gonzalez holding Kelly's sweatshirt, it's, it, I just feel broken in half, broken in half, Chris. You know, Nancy, this brings back so much, so many memories for many parents who have lost children, myself included. And the fact that she is embracing that sweatshirt just to smell her daughter gives us an understanding of a depth of pain that nobody should ever experience. And then when I shift into out from a personal experience to an investigator's hat, and she pulls out of the pocket the Grubhubb receipt on that receipt as a time. And why that receipt was not in evidence for me, anyway, as an investigator, again, shows

potentially some shortcomings with the totality of this investigation. I was wondering, Chris McDonough, when you were going to bring that up. When I found out the receipt from that night, which is part of the timeline, was still in her pocket. I nearly fell over. But I want to show you something. I carry around a lot of times. And we've been wall-to-wall

trying to help our friends Savannah Guthrie. And these are my dad's shirts. Sometimes I just carry them around. Sometimes I sleep in them. It just kind of depends. And I can just feel when Christy Gonzalez is talking about her daughter, just that empty moment when the trial, or in this case, the cheap plea is over, and everybody leaves and nobody's talking about it anymore, and nobody cares anymore,

and there you are with that sweatshirt. just the silence is deafening for this family. Yes, and it doesn't get any better, right? Nancy, you know from personal experience of loss, they now have to learn the coping mechanisms to get them through the next birthday, the next, you know, item that they pull out of a box that was handed to them from the authorities. And everything turns into the next.

next piece of where is my child, but there will never, ever be that personal hug, that, that mom, I love you, dad, I love you, hearing it. It's over. And so you learn how to cope with it. But there really, that's as far as you can go as a parent, as a, you know, in your circumstances, as your fiance, you just have to empower yourself and then put it towards a positive end and hopefully great things will come out of it. Tonight, a, let me say, unique theory as far as I'm concerned, regarding the murders of four beautiful University of Idaho students. And in the backdrop of that analytical discussion is Koeberger, preparing him,

himself to sue, really? What does he want? Nine, ten million dollars over what? But tonight, did Coburger act alone? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's the only one that got up in court and pled guilty. He's the only one that was prosecuted. But now a growing tide of legal eagles insist Coburger did not act alone. I poop. who poot it when I would see it on Twitter and Insta and Facebook. I would discount it. But for some reason, there is a legion of legal eagles that say, yes, he had an accomplice. But I want you to see Lieutenant Daring Gilbertson with Idaho State Police as he approached

Koeberger. I feel like you probably know why we're here. We're detected from Idaho. And we're here because of the case in Moscow. And as soon as we mentioned that, then he stopped. And he said, I don't want to talk anymore. From our friends at ABC, that is Lieutenant Darren Gilbertson describing what happened when he first approached Coburgar following the murders. The moment he identified himself as I am from the Idaho State Police, Coburger immediately said, I don't want to talk.

I don't want to talk. So Philip Dubay joining me, veteran trial lawyer out of L.A. County. Philip, you know, when a cop asked me a question, I respond. I don't call my lawyer in. Why? Depends. I mean, most people ask for a lawyer if they feel whatever they're going to say is going to incriminate themselves.

Even if you believe that getting the truth off your chest might help you. In fact, prosecutors can use whatever you're saying to tailor guilt based on their narrative of what happened. So rather than say anything, you should remain quiet and silent to keep all your options open so that you can review all the evidence in its totality and decide what, if anything, you should say at trial on the witness stand, but not to cops. I don't know, but when I see a cop approach, I don't hit the gas and take off 110 MPH. I don't try to get away. I don't try to avoid the questions. And I certainly don't worry about a potential jury trial. So, you know, I'm taking everything you say with a box of salt,

Philip Dubei. Now, the theory that Brian Coburger did not act alone. What? Before Coburger removed from his parents Albrightville, Pennsylvania home, he asked officers a single question. Was anyone else arrested? Though many believe Coburger asked out of concern for his family after the late night raid, Bloom believes Coburger wanted to know if his accomplice, was already in custody. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Leading the throng of legal eagles that insist Coburger did not act alone is renowned author Howard Bloom.

He wrote the definitive book on the Idaho murders when the night comes falling, a requiem for the Idaho student murders. Howard, explain yourself. Well, first let me offer up a caveat to what you just said. I'm not saying he acted alone. I'm saying the theory deserves attention. And it deserves attention after all the documents we've seen in recent days, which include an analysis of what happened by the defense's own witness, Dr. Brent Turvey. He raises many of the questions that I came about. independently. If you look at the devastation, this wasn't just a stabbing. This was a massacre. The four students were stabbed over 150 times in totality. I mean, try raising your hand 150 times,

and this happens. The police say within a 13-minute window. Wait a minute. Hold on, hold on, can I see the photo of Brian Koberger thinking he looks all buff showing off all of his muscles? This guy worked out all the time and was constantly flexing himself. So you're telling me, oh, dear Lord in heaven, I asked for it, and boy did I get it. A skinny kid, but whatever. So you don't see those muscles on his, he's got some guns going on right there. So you're telling me, you're basing your theory on the fact that he's too skinny and scrawny to raise his arm 150 times. I mean, women do that.

I'm not saying that. hour all the time. And two floors of the house in the darkness and also both the prosecution and defense have said that there's a possibility that another weapon was used. That were, Kelly received wounds from another weapon that there was, they also are to both agree that there is a possibility that there was staging that the, the victims were covered up with a comforter and they moved them around that also that there was a they clean up afterwards. The prosecution is not denying that that's a possibility too. I think all

these elements, as are laid out by the defense statements, raise questions that need to be looked at. I think we're seeing things when we look at the new evidence that really don't fit into the timeline. You know, I really believe Susan Hendricks is joining us, a journalist, investigative reporter, author of Down the Hill, my descent into the double murder in Delphi. Susan, maybe a UFO flew over and little green men transported down into the King Road address and murdered them along with Coburger. Maybe that happened. Is it possible? Yes, possible. Is it probable? No, it's not probable. You know, Howard Bloom is renowned as an investigative journalist. as an author. But I think he's way off. And I think that somehow this alternate suspect theory

got planted in his head by Coburger's defense. I mean, other than him saying he couldn't raise his arm 150 times, I've raised my arm 35 times while he was talking. Okay. So no, he's saying, was there a cleanup? Well, based on the crime scene photos that I saw, that I refuse to publish because of their gory nature out of respect to the victim's families? I didn't see much of a cleanup going on. I think he's been infected by the defense bug. Yeah, I go back to the odinous theory, Nancy, when you can argue anything in public online, but in court. And of course, the expert witness of the defense, it's going to be in there that, yes, there could be a second person. And co-worker, he studied serial killers. So he may have thought about this for months, maybe even years,

what he's going to say was anyone else arrested. I believe he acted alone. Yes, there was bloodshed. It's horrific considering the amount of times he stabbed people. But I believe the prosecution would have proved that, that it is doable by one person's happened. Straight out to special guests joining us, Chris McDonough, homicide detective, former homicide detective.

What do you make of the theory that Bloom is asserting that Coburger had an accomplice? Or maybe Coburger was the accomplice, not the perp in chief? Well, I think the first thing that needs obvious consideration is the defense is going to hire experts that are going to say what they want them to say. And they're going to create those theories that those roads are going to run down. However, I've examined all of the photographs that are available. And I've come to my own conclusions that based on some of the evidence that we can see is Koviger acted alone. and there's a whole bunch of reasons behind that. I believe he straddled both of those girls

who were intoxicated, sound asleep in the bed, and he blitzkrieed and attacked them. And we used to have a terminology that said the knife went on full auto because of the rage. And then when you take that into Coburger's personality type, he sees people like bugs. He does not see them with, empathy or anything like that.

And then while he was killing both of those girls who were struggling and fighting backwards, i.e. they were kicking from underneath the blankets. The blood evidence showed that I believe at that point his sheath became, you know, dislodged from wherever it was and because Xana had come in and come into the room. When Zana got in the room, he chased her into her room and the blood evidence show because there's blood on the doorway going into the room. I believe he caught her, stabbed her, and she fell against the wall between the bed and the nightstand.

And it was at that point, Ethan woke up on his right elbow, leaned forward, and Kauberger gave him a quick coup de grah. Ethan was out probably within six or seven seconds, even also trying to kick. and Zana began to fight, and that's where he straddled her on the ground against, you know, her chair where she was subsequently found. And that was brutal. So two people doing this, I personally do not believe the evidence showed that. Okay, now let me understand this. This all tipped off, started, ignited in your mind, Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling,

Because at the time of arrest, Koeberger said, who else was arrested? That's what got you going? No, not at all. What got me going was, were the crime scene photographs, the discussion of a cleanup, the discussion of the number of wounds, the Bill Thompson talking about his second weapon, and are still trying to grapple with the question of a motive. Why would he have picked that house? The defense still wonders why the prosecution was going to say, well, he just picked it at random.

Well, nothing Kohlberger did that night seems randomish. He had planned the event. He had turned off his phone. He had obviously brought some cleanup materials, either he was wearing baggies or a suit to cover the blood. And yet he picks a house where there are a number of cars. I think it's five cars parked in front. There's a door dash delivery. Why does he go there? Why is he go there? Why is he going? up to the third floor, I think there was a motive involved and the motive involved someone else. And as you said before, maybe Kohlberger was the accomplished. Maybe he was helping someone who had a genuine motive commit the perfect crime. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She's the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now

on Peacock and you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I find it very, very difficult to believe that anyone would go along with Brian Koeberger's Zany Theory to go murder horribly, horribly, horrifically murder for innocent students. He didn't even know. Who is he going to rope into that scheme? Let's just think about that for a moment. You know, Nancy, he wanted the glory all for himself, right? Why would he share the moment of victory with another person? I mean, And as I've said so many times on your show, he wanted to triumph over and dominate these beautiful young students who were having the kind of life he could never hope to have, right? He had to blot them out of existence because he could never achieve what they achieved.

He wanted to insert himself into their lives. And they probably didn't even have the time of day for him. I mean, metaphorically, it's not like he really maybe contacted them or maybe he did. on social media and they didn't get back. So why would he want to bring in another co-conspirator to blot out their lives when that was his biggest achievement in his own life? It doesn't make sense. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I feel like you probably know why we're here. We're detectives from Idaho and we're here because of the case in Moscow. And as soon as we mentioned that, then he stopped. And he said, I don't want to talk

anymore. From ABC. He slaughtered them. I don't care why he did it. I don't care about his motive. They're never coming home and they died a horrible death. And what Brian's about to understand is that his virginity is being traded for half a cigarette and that his mother had better packed some commissary orders so that he has items to trade. insisting tonight, Brian Koberger did not act alone. But I'd like to direct everyone's attention to what Dylan Mortensen, who survived Coburger's murder rampage, what she said about the attacker. Listen.

And then ultimately her walking up, I heard a scream and she ran downstairs because she saw someone. That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She said someone's here and she screamed and just ran downstairs. And I called for her name, but I, jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And I heard someone in the bathroom when I heard her crying. And I heard some guys say that you're going to be okay.

I'm going to help you. Susan Hendricks, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she describe one assailant? She does. She describes someone dressed in black, pretty tall, described him as a basketball player physique with bushy eyebrows. Just one. Sydney Sunro joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. I want to reiterate.

what Dylan Mortensen said that night. And I want to make sure Howard Bloom and Philip Dubay's earpaces are working. Sydney Sumner, what was said at the time by Dylan Mortensen? Mortensen described hearing and seeing a man walking around in her home. She at some point hears one of her roommates say, someone's here. And then she overhears a male voice saying, I'm going to help you. At this point, she steps out of her room trying to understand what's going on. And she sees this man walk past her, and she describes him as wearing all black in a mask that shows just his eyes.

And she speaks with the officer trying to give a rough description of this man taller than her, lanky. That's who she sees in her home. There's no mention of a second person. Philip Dubay, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney. I mean, Philip DuBae, this is what you do for a living. You find somebody else to blame. There is absolutely no way that this one scrawny man can take down four people merely because he has a knife.

Look at him. At a minimum, one person probably could have knocked him down, maybe somehow rested the knife away from him, kicked him, punched him, held him, and prevented all that carnage. So obviously he had a Confederate on St. Dale Mount because he knew that they were going to be met by multiple people in that house.

I mean, let's face it, this is a reputed party house, and there's going to be at least four or five people living there, and you have to be prepared. So what do you do? You bring a co-confederate with you to get the job done. And I think the reason why we haven't heard from that co-confederate, if you will, is because, that person is likely a fifth victim as dead man tell no tale.

Okay, wait, wait, wait. Please put him up. So now not only is there another co-defendant, but that co-defendant is dead, killed by Brian Coburger, but we just haven't found his body yet. So you're really taking this all, you're running with it. So you think, okay, you know, can we deal with reality? Let me go to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County.

That's Fort Worth, never a lack of business in the morgue there. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, and he's a star of a hit podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall Crowns, with this number of wounds, okay, 150 all in, we think, because as you've told me many times, knife wounds can overlap on a victim to the the point where it's like stabbing jello. You can't really tell how many times it's been stabbed. Due to the movable nature of human flesh, how could you possibly tell that more than one weapon was used? So with the stab wounds, sometimes you can tell that if it's a single edge or a double edge and get an idea of different type of knives being used.

used but the problem with stab wounds is they can look very similar so different knives may leave the same injuries now with the description of the individuals that were killed one of them has been possibly strangled and had her head kind of smashed in hit several times in the head fractures with skull that could have been done with a K bar knife the the handle of the K bar knife was actually quite sick and he could have used the actual knife that he was stabbing them with to also beat them as well as he was stabbing them. So to me, I think all those wounds could have happened in a very short period of time. It's fairly easy to stab someone and then he can be switching up,

hitting them with his fists, hitting them with the handle of the knife as well, giving the blunt force injuries that's described on one of the victims. I think that it's easily you could have him shifting up how he is stabbing and hitting them and then it's easily done by one person. Could you, could it be done by two people with different weapons. Stab wounds are a little hard to differentiate as far as types of weapons. So back to you, Howard Bloom, and I've yet to get to the DNA issue. And the only fact that is somewhat disturbing to me is I think the prosecutor was just so happy to just wrap this up with a bow and get rid of the case.

That's disturbing to me. and the thought that there could be a second assailant. He just doesn't want to be bothered with that. I do not want an assailant walking free. I want Coburger to go down, but if he had help, I want that person behind bars for the rest of their life or the death penalty. That said, nothing has convinced me at all that there are two assailants. why is it beyond the realm of possibility that Kovberger did use two weapons?

The idea that he carried two weapons in seems to me a bit absurd, but also the whole two weapon theory. That's not mine. That's Bill Thompson, the prosecutor in the case, said there's a very good possibility that two weapons were used. Two weapons to me, 150 knife wounds. That leads to there being two suspects. Also, staging of the bodies, cleaning up afterwards, the lack of any sort of motive.

All these pieces come together not to say that there was another accomplice, but that raises the possibility that needs to be explored. Also, as you pointed out quite clearly, and there was a rush to judgment in this case. Everyone involved wanted this whole case to disappear. They couldn't wait to tear down the house. They couldn't wait to settle the case. Let's try to get some real answers. They even made that they accepted the settlement without having any kind of allocution,

trying to get the answers to where the knife is, at least. I say there are mysteries that still exist there, and I think we owe a responsibility to the victims and to the taxpayers of Idaho who funded this investigation to try to get to the bottom of things. And I don't know on location of your emergency? Hi, something is happening. I don't know what. What is he?

address of the emergency? 112. The rest of the address? Oh, Kings Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right?

I'll talk to you guys. We're, um, we live at the lights where we're next to them. This guy who slaughtered, who ripped apart, four beautiful co-eds, ripped them apart with a military cable. Bart Knight. That guy is whining about his broccoli and the other inmates. Here's a call coming in, Brian. This is not a hotel. One thing we have to address in this theory that Brian Koeberger did not act alone. I don't buy it. Nothing has convinced me otherwise yet. But believe me, if there is another

assailant, I want them behind bars. That is why I feel that we have to examine it. Does it amount to anything? Maybe not. But still, we have to examine it. I want to talk about not only the 150 stab wounds and Howard Bloom's assertion. One person could not do that. I mean, wait just a minute. Susan Hendricks, don't you recall the case of a female murdering a male with 100 plus stab wounds during some crazy sex play?

Remember that? Oh, yes, yes. I believe it is possible here, and clearly we've seen it in other cases as well. And by the way, the two weapons, I think it was the back of the knife and the blade. I think that's what the prosecutor meant. What do you mean? With Kaylee, she had some injuries that may have been, she was injured by the back of the knife in her facial area and her teeth. That explains a lot. Okay, Dr. Kendall Crowns, hearing. Susan Hendricks explanation of the back or the hilt of the knife being used, would that make a

difference in your analysis at all? So the back of the health of the knife being used, to me, it could go along with the injuries you're seeing the blunt force injuries, and also it could be the knife being driven in all the way to the hilt, being a very deep stab wound leaving injuries as well. So to me, it just all goes along with the fact that it's a single individual causing all these wounds. They just switch up what they're doing with their one weapon. You know, I believe her name was Bryn Specher, Susan Hendricks, who was convicted of stabbing her boyfriend over 100 times. And then, of course, there's Jody Arias, who stabbed Travis Alexander 30 plus times and didn't have a problem with it at all. But for some reason,

and Howard Bloom, you seem to think that while these two women could murder with a knife stabbing over and over and over, you don't think Hoburger could do it. Well, the cases you're talking about involves just one victim. Here we're talking about four different victims on two floors of the house in darkness, and we know that at least two of them fought back. and the prosecution itself has raised the possibility of a second weapon. All these pieces come together, I think, to raise the possibility that there might well have been another assailant, added on to the motive, added on to Coburger's statement,

was anyone else arrested? It raises a lot of doubts. And to use Dylan Mortensen as a witness, well, her testimony has been very mercurial. It's changed throughout the many interviews she's given with the police. I mean, I feel for her. She's a victim in all this. But at the same time, she is not the most reliable witness. Put him up.

Howard Bloom, you've got a nerve saying Dylan Mortensen was not a reliable witness. She barely survived by the skin of her teeth, as she described, one assailant. She said she saw one assailant. She said she saw one man in black. At one point, she said he was carrying a vassailant. At another point, she said, I was really too drunk to figure out what's happening. And your reliable witness just also happened to wait eight hours, eight hours before calling the police. And then she thought they were unconscious.

Other times, she said she saw blood. So that is your reliable witness. Okay, straight back to you, Chris McDonough. Could you shed some light on the theory that there were two assailants now that you've heard where Bloom is coming from? Sure, that's, you know, one of the questions that's not being asked is what's in Brian Coburger system that evening? One of the last homicides I worked was a single individual that had slaughtered some folks. And the knife went on full auto. There were hundreds of stab wounds.

And as the dock is shed, and as Susan was reported, that that knife, that K-Bar-N-R-knife, that K-Barr-knife, the back of the health of that knife, I believe was utilized, and the blood evidence shows it on Kaylee excessively as well as Xana excessively. And that's probably the two weapon theory here. What we're not asking, though, is what was going on in Brian Coburger's system? We know what the toxicology results are for the victims. They were incapacitated. They were sleeping. But Brian Colberger, in that eight-hour time that was just brought up, came back to the scene to see his work that morning. You know, and if, in fact, this was a two perpetrator problem, whether or not the sharpest tools in the shed, because somebody came up with the idea of leaving the knife sheet there.

So not just one idiot, but two. Yeah, that's kind of hard to take in. So Howard Bloom, you also point out DNA on the stairwell and on a glove. I believe that Chris McGunnace spotted the glove, that I at the time, out in the parking lot. And I believe, Chris, you're the one that showed it to police. So I guess Howard Bloom, you're using that as fodder for your two perp theory, the DNA? No, I'm raising the question. why wasn't that DNA analyzed?

Why wasn't the prosecution and the Idaho State Police going through the trouble? Really, just taking the time to put this through the DNA file and try to find out who it belonged to. It seems that when you don't want to know the answers to questions, they didn't ask them. Susan Hendricks, isn't it true that the state tried to get a DNA match on that speck of DNA? and regarding the handrail, that could have been anybody. This was a party house that was in and out of the house. But didn't they try to get a DNA match? Yes, and I always go back, I know, to Delphi,

because I know so much about that case, but there was some DNA of unknown people on the girls' clothes, meaning if you're around anyone, it could show, as you said, it was a party house. It could have been someone in that home's DNA. Wait a minute. Look at the Grubhub truck. They're hugging people and talking to people.

That's very, very easy to transfer DNA right there. So my point is, Howard Bloom said, why didn't they try to find out? They did try to find out, didn't they? Absolutely did. And they settled. The defense is now trying to try it in the court of public opinion. And I will say online, the people who believe there was someone else there really believe it. and they're sticking with it no matter what the evidence.

Tell me exactly what's going on. One of our, one of the roommates who passed out and she was drunk last night and she not wake me up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house outside. Yeah. Hi. And are you with the patient?

Okay, I need someone to keep the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know what pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone is passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on. You gotta go check.

Now I'm hearing Brian Coburger can sue? Sidney Sumner, sue who? Well, he could sue IDOC. That short video of him in his jail sale, the IDOC did trace that week to a specific person who resigned. not face any kind of punishment for leaking that photo. But Brian Kohlberger could come back and say that the prison owes him some kind of damage for letting that get through the cracks and to the public. Okay. This is totally bass-acquards. Dr. Bethany, look at him. Look how red his hands are from cleaning things. There he is cleaning a shoe like he's been out in the mud. He hasn't been anywhere. He's obsessively cleaning. and rearranging his shelves.

So now he's going to sue because somebody leaked this. What damage did it do him? He's already a four-time convicted killer. Don't you have to hurt someone's reputation? How's that going to hurt his reputation? It's already ruined. Nancy, all I see is power and control. If you can't control the four victims that he slaughtered,

now he's going to control the shoe in his jail cell. I mean, that's what I see. You know, Nancy, the reason I do not think that he is, acted with another person is that I believe this was a sexually motivated crime. I believe he was sexually excited while he committed the crime. Over the 150 stab wounds was something that he, sadism and sexuality and arousal were all fused in his mind in some kind of way. So why would he share that glory with another perpetrator. That's something that somebody does alone. Oh, I see. What you're saying is coming home. I get it. He would never share all the glory

with somebody else. So the fact to you, Chris McDonough, that he would sue over the leaked video, it's absurd. Yeah, and you know, Nancy, I want to be the first to advocate that you you run the depositions because, you know, if I was ISP or the DA's office, etc., I would want one of my own teams sitting there during those initial deposition periods. And the first question I would ask him is go down that line. So exactly, how did you do this, Brian? And so I think this is absurd, but it's consistent with his behavior. Again, he sees this whole process and he sees people as the The doc has pointed out, power, control, and dominance. And he looks at people as bugs.

And he doesn't see them as human beings like we do. You know, that's a really good point. Philip Dubay, veteran trial lawyer, if he does follow through and sue over this leaked video we're showing right now, he can be called. It's not like a criminal trial where you, Dubay, can hide behind the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. the other side, the respondent, can put him on as the first witness and cross-examine him as a hostile witness. Of course they could, and they could also summon him to a video conference room to do his deposition, and they can sit him down under oath and digress away from his precious tort claim for invasion of privacy in his jail cell,

where, by the way, he has no expectation of privacy, even constitutionally or in his jail. tort, and they will drill him on every single crime fact that the public would love to know about. And if he refuses to answer, counsel can go into court and get sanctions and compel him to respond. And if he doesn't, under Idaho law, the ultimate doomsday sanction could result, which is a dismissal of his case with prejudice. We wait as justice unfolds, and we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Rick Haggard, Lee County Sheriff's Department, Mississippi, killed in the line of duty and living behind a grieving wife and daughters. American hero, deputy sheriff, Rick Haggard.

Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.