Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER TRIAL DATE SET, STATE AMASSING CELL, VIDEO PROOF

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Bryan Kohberger enters the courtroom for a motion hearing regarding a gag order, Friday, June 9, 2023, in Latah County District Court in Moscow, Idaho. A judge overseeing the case against Kohberger, charged with killing four University of Idaho students last fall, is set to hear arguments over a gag order that largely bars attorneys and other parties in the case from speaking with news reporters. (Zach Wilkinson/Moscow-Pullman Daily News via AP, Pool) Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Howard Blum – Author: “When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;” Instagram: howard_blum_author /X: howardblum Brian C. Stewart – Trial Attorney and Managing Partner at Parker & McConkie;  Instagram: parkermcconkie   Chris McDonough  – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room” Traci Brown – Body Language Expert & Author: “How to Detect Lies, Fraud and Identity Theft;” X: @Tracibrown37 Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Koberger's trial date is set. This, as the state is amassing cell and video proof. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Bombshell. The Koberger trial date set after endless delays. Will the Idaho four victims

finally get justice? We now know the trial date is not to occur for another year. Is this really happening? Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. First of all, straight out to Chris McDonough joining us, Director of Cold Case Foundation, homicide detective and host of the YouTube channel, The Interview Room. The families of the victims, very distraught at another year delay, seemingly no justice. And, you know, Chris McDonough from having been a star witness in so many murder cases, the defense's best friend is delay, delay, delay. And that is a trial strategy to delay. Agree or disagree? 100% agree, Nancy.

And this is what the family was waiting for to get a trial date. But to be 30 months out from the moment their child is taken off of this earth is very difficult to navigate through. And it does benefit the defense. Another thing, I'm going to circle back to the trial day, but a big blow up amongst legal eagles across the country is the body language in the courtroom. Take a listen. Integral to Brian Kohlberger's defense is the appearance that his counsel truly believes he is innocent. Ann Taylor and her assistants have said that they support Kohlberger. But body language experts say Taylor's positioning far away from Kohlberger suggests otherwise.

Some even say it looks like Taylor fears Kohlberger. However, their attorney-client relationship shows improvement, with Kohlberger breaking his usual stare during conversation with Taylor to crack a smile. We've seen throughout history, I'm gonna go to Brian C Stewart, a high-profile lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction of Idaho. He is managing partner Parker and McConkel. Question to you Brian, we have watched the body language in the courtroom from the get-go. And let me show you a few shots just off the top of my head. For instance, oh, there they are.

On earlier court dates when they were still sitting together, that's one of the first court dates ever. The courtroom body language, Brian Stewart, is conveyed to a jury. It's nonverbal, but it's very clear. And we see Ann Taylor in the Koberger case inching further and further and further away from Koberger. Gee, I wonder why. Weigh in. Well, there's no question that the proximity and relationship that a defense attorney exhibits towards their client gives the perception of what that defense attorney actually believes about the client, whether or not they're dangerous or safe or guilty or innocent. And even setting the defense lawyers' actual beliefs aside, a seasoned defense lawyer is

going to know that that perception is always on trial, even in motion hearings, as well as at trial, that they're always being observed and always sending a message of how they feel about their client. Joining us right now, special guest Tracy Brown, body language expert, author of How to Detect Lies, Fraud, and Identity Theft. And you can find her at bodylanguagetrainer.com. Tracy, it's great to have you. I wanted you to see the various photos and see Koberger with his lawyer. Tracy, I was looking actually at Koberger's outfits in court. And I was comparing one suit to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next. And I noticed he always wore the same tie. And as I was looking at that, you know, does his demeanor

change? Does his strut into the courtroom change? Because I will never forget Scott Peterson. Every day he would walk into the courtroom, all puffed up like this, very cocky, like a star football player, and literally strut over to the defense table. And I didn't think that was a good look for the jury, but I've been watching Koberger's gait, his demeanor, who he looks for in the courtroom, where does he look first, how does he seat himself, where does he seat himself, is he relaxed, is he smiling, there's a lot of creepy grins going on. But then I began to notice, Tracy, the distance, I guarantee you after tonight it won't happen again, But there has been a growing distance and frigidity between his defense attorney and him. And I'd like you, having studied his demeanor and his movements

in court, to give us your assessment. Well, what I see is when he walks in, he's super stiff. So either he hasn't been moving like while he's in jail, which is possible, or it's maybe a subset of fear running through his body, which that would be a reasonable thing to think. Now, as the distance grows, right, that says emotional separation. And they definitely do not have a close relationship, him and his lawyer. Now, here's what I noticed that was really interesting in some of the video that your team sent me is when they left the courtroom, he left and he got out of there. And the rest of the team was still back at the table. And that tells me that he has not necessarily accepted his lawyer as the unconscious leader of the group.

Because if that was the case, they would rise and he would wait for them and they would leave together. So that really struck me as interesting. They are not a tight unit team at all. I can tell you right now, this guy is never going to be allowed on the stand. Joining me in addition to the all-star panel you've already met, Howard Bloom is with us, renowned author and author of a brand new book, which is amazing. I've read the entire thing cover to cover. When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. You can find him at howardbloom dot com. Howard, you have

researched this so diligently. I want to hear your thoughts. Well, he seems to live in his own detachment, his own little world. Even in the courtroom, it almost looks as he stares straight ahead. It looks as if he might have been drugged beforehand to keep him keep him under control but i also you mentioned that he wears different suits i wonder where is he getting these suits we know the state is paying for his defense but where is he getting all these new suits he seems to be going out almost posing as an actor in this his hair is suddenly gelled he's looking good i think he's in on some level enjoying this attention because i also believe in the back of his mind he thinks he's going to outsmart everyone and he's just sort of sitting back there i i think the the idea that

his hands are steeple showing competence. I think he's really confident. I think he thinks he's going to have the last laugh. Guys, we have been told, according to sources, he is using five different suits for court. Many of them look very similar to Justice Scott Morgan. Joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new series podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. All of that is well and good. But here's the thing about Morgan. He has investigated over 1,000 death scenes. Now, I've tried a lot of homicides. I've been to a lot of autopsies, but that is a big number, rivaled by Chris McDonough, a former homicide detective. But Joe Scott, I want to talk to you about this aspect of the trial. You've been in a lot of trials. You

have a real way of communicating. When I look at Koberger, there's only one word I can think of, frigid. When he sits in the courtroom, he might as well be a stalactite sitting there in the chair next to his lawyer, who frankly looks, she looks terrified of him. She just, she hardly even looks at him, number one. And that's the thing. That is a thing. You know, Joe Scott, when you don't like somebody or you don't like what they're saying, you know, look away like that or you won't look and look in their face. People can't meet your eyes all the time when they're lying. I don't see them having any of those moments where they turn to each other and speak closely. How do you equate? Now, this may be a little out of your usual sphere that you talk about with me because we are usually talking about body parts and blood spatter and autopsies. But I want you to compare the ferocity of those attacks on those four students with what we're seeing in the courtroom. He has he has this cold affect, which I think that has been stated pretty clearly here. I was transfixed by what Tracy was saying a moment ago.

And I've experienced this on scenes and particularly talking with people that have this kind of absence, if you will, in the face of some of the most gruesome things that I think that are incomprehensible to most people. And I've seen this in plain view of me because I would come away thinking, you know, how in the world did they not react to what I had just stated to them when you tried to describe these horrible events and the aftermath here? And he's staring down this, Nancy, you know, what is it, June of 2025. He's got all of his time again to think about this. And the idea here is that he is cold and calculating, at least on the surface, it would appear. That scene. But how can those two things exist, Joe Scott? The ferocity, the vicious nature of the attacks and the lying. I'm here to help you,

he said to one of the victims before he killed them. And now this cold, austere, austere demeanor in court. Well, it goes to psychopathy, I think, Nancy, this idea that there is something much deeper that is going on within him. Because I got to tell you, Nancy, when I begin to think about the scene and what we have at minimum, what we've been told at this point, there was some degree of planning that went on. And we can get into all of that. But you think about the purchase of a weapon, you think about maybe covering himself, maybe covering the interior of the car as a barrier.

This goes to a broader construct. If you're prepared enough to plan to show up and do this kind of devastation, then wouldn't it stand to reason that by extension, you're not going to abandon that position? And only somebody that is really cold hearted could do that. Integral to Brian Kohlberger's defense is the appearance that his counsel truly believes he is innocent. But body language experts say Taylor's positioning far away from Kohlberger suggests otherwise.

The Kohlberger attorney seemingly terrified of suspected idaho students killer not just evidence that is being amassed right now we keep hearing the defense complain i don't have the evidence i don't have the evidence it could be much as in the case of alex murdo, remember the car satellite evidence, the black box, so to speak, that evidence was being amassed leading all the way up to trial. And therefore, it was newly discovered. Is the state amassing cell phone and video data? Much as we saw in the case of Fotis Dulos, who was charged in the murder of his wife, Connecticut Missing Mom of Five, Jennifer Dulos. That said, what about evidence that's missing?

And how is the state going to counter, first of all, this? One of the items in Kohlberger's apartment sparks significant interest from authorities. A Dickies clothing tag is found lying on a Walmart receipt. The receipt indicates that Kohlberger purchased a dark blue work uniform that cannot be located. If Kohlberger wore the long-sleeve jumpsuit during the attack and changed before driving back to Pullman, it would explain why no traces of blood were found in the white Hyundai Elantra. Investigators believe Kohlberger then disposed of both the uniform and the knife used in the attack. And not just that missing work suit, but also this.

Listen. Investigators have receipts proving that Koberger purchases both a K-Bar knife and Dickie's work uniform, but neither item has been recovered. The morning after the murders, Koberger drives 45 minutes south to Clarkston, Washington, situated between the Snake and Clearwater River. Koberger makes a quick stop inside an Albertsons grocery store and his white Elantra is seen passing Kate's Cup of Joe. Many have theorized that Coburger disposed of the incriminating items during this trip, throwing them in the winding rivers that span more than 1,100 miles. Okay, everybody, we've got to circle back to bodies of water that we just heard.

Our friend Dave Mack from CrimeOnline.com, the white Elantra is seen passing Kate's cup of Joe. We know his route based on cell phone data. Right now, our authorities furiously combing bodies of water to find, A, the murder weapon, and B, that Dickey's uniform. Straight out to Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, an amazing book full of intense research on Koberger. What do you make, first of all, about this Dickey's uniform? I mean, the evidence is pretty strong in that he buys this uniform prior to the murders. Why? That's not what he wears to work. Why does he need that?

What happened to it? And a clothing tag. The tag is found lying on the Wal-Mart receipt. So we know he bought it. Where is it? Exactly. I mean, this shows his planning. And he did not go into this just on a spur of the moment. This was a preconceived, deliberately planned event. And that also goes back to what you were talking about earlier about his confidence in the courtroom. He still believes that he's going to outsmart everyone. You can't find the murder weapon. You can't find the Dickies outfit. All this is part of his plan that allows him to think

he's going to get away with it. You know, Tracy Brown joining me, high profile body language expert. I just want to point one thing out. I've got Jackie here in the studio going, why did he cut the tag out? Okay, I have to cut the tag out of every single thing my son wears because it scratches the back of his neck that said it could also be the tag off of the clothing

like okay this is Walmart you'll have not only receipt but there'll be a tag on say the sleeve it could be that tag that said this one I want to talk to you about, Tracy. The fact that the tag, this is so Koberger, the tag from the clothing is laid neatly on top of the receipt. Who does that? I mean, who keeps those things together? I find that very, very unusual. But it goes to what Bloom was just saying, the author of the new book, about the methodical psychopathy of Brian Koberger. Well, this is the only way he can feel emotion in his life, right? This is his moment. This is his Olympics. He has planned and planned and planned, and he is going to make sure every detail is just right. Because remember, his amygdala

probably not working and he can't do feelings and he's trying as hard as he can to feel something. And it's all this planning that is his moment to try to get something out of life. Well, you know what's interesting also, following up on Tracy to Brian Stewart, high profile lawyer in that jurisdiction of Idaho. Brian, have you ever had a client, and I'm just immediately thinking of Robert Blake and all of his henchmen, they actually made out a list, lie, tarp. They wrote the list, the murder list, lie, tarp, let's say shovel. I can't even remember what all they had on their list that they needed to get rid of Bonnie Lee Bakley's body.

But have you ever had a client plan so much that the planning became the proof? The list, the receipt, the tag, the Amazon order for the K-Bar knife, the, you know, the Dickies uniform. Just everything. Turning the phone off ahead of time, then turning it back on en route home. It's just so much planning and the trail becomes, the trail to get rid of the evidence becomes the evidence. Absolutely. I've never experienced that personally with a client. But when you see someone planning that systematically to avoid getting caught, that can become evidence that they did do it.

When there's all this evidence, like the knife and the work uniform that were purchased, but now have disappeared. And it's, you know, it is troubling and he should be worried about it. You know, too, Joe Scott Morgan, you and I have talked about this fixed blade knife many, many times. We have the Amazon order for the knife and the sheath. We found the sheath under one of the victim's dead bodies. But the knife, of all things, goes missing. You know, even my son and daughter, my son got a scout knife years ago.

I can tell you right now where that thing is. Why would you buy a K-bar knife that matches the sheath under the victim's body, and now the knife's gone. Yeah. Hey, let's talk about the Dickies real quick, because that's key here, I think, Nancy. What if Liz and the crew could put that image back up of the Dickies coveralls? What's it missing that you would see on a normal pair of trousers? There are no belt loops there, okay? Now, granted, it has pockets, but with K-Bar, it has got a significant place here to run your belt through and to hang off of your pants. You know, and I'm thinking, you know,

I've always kind of envisioned this, you know, going into that room. It's almost like a drama that's being played out. When he withdraws that knife from the sheath, it's very dramatic, I think, for him at that moment in time. And in this fury, in this confused state, chaos, he's dropped this sheath. He doesn't have it secure to his side like you would normally think. confused state, chaos. He's dropped this sheath. He doesn't have it secured to his side like you would normally think. I mean, hell, these things are made for the Marine Corps, Nancy. They have all kinds of places that they attach these things to their equipment in order to secure it.

He failed in that one area, Nancy, and it's always been fascinating to me. And the fact that there's nothing in the car as well. He's thought about the Dickies, perhaps, to cover himself. And, you know, there's been all kinds of theories put forward about, well, why is there no evidence in the car? Did he go to the extent as well of using trash bags or plastic or something contained? Because I just knew I would have bet you dollars to donuts that when they got that car, it was going to be a rolling crime scene. That they were going to find some evidence in there because I've worked cases involving sharp force injuries, Nancy, and they are by far, even compared to shotgun wounds, by far the most bloody scenes that you can possibly work as a death investigator. And I cannot get past the thought that there was not an element of biological evidence left within that car.

And we haven't even talked about shoes. What happened to the shoes as well? Because he would have had blood on the shoes. We haven't even gotten to the shoes. But hey, hey, hold the thought. I got to tell you something very quickly. You know, you said you just said, did he put things in a trash bag? How did he keep everything?

How did he keep the car pristine? I'll tell you how. Joe Scott, you probably hear this before you fall asleep at night. Me saying, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. If you don't know what he's going to do, look at what he's done. Howard Bloom, remember when Koberger was arrested in the family home near the Poconos? What was he doing? He was standing there either in shorts or underwear with plastic gloves on at like, what, three in the morning? And he was in two separate plastic bags. Right, Howard?

And exactly. And this shows the planning, the methodicalness that went into this. He thought he was going to be the criminology student who would outsmart the police. He thought even when he was in Pennsylvania, he still could get away with it. He would still be able to return to Washington State University and begin teaching once again. And I think even now when he's in court, he still thinks he's going to have the last laugh. He thinks he's going to beat this case. Hey, Chris McDonough, director Cold Case Foundation, jump in. I think I heard you. But, you know, Nancy, let's go back to the clothing for a second. And let's just talk about the removal of the tag and whatever. If it's the tag that's attached to the DICI,

then there is a number on that tag and it's called an RN number. And that number can be traced through the Federal Trade Commission as to where that item was purchased, where that item was made, you know, what country, et cetera, et cetera. So if he had thought through this, you know, this methodical, and if he was smart enough to cut that tag off, if the authorities ever found that tag, they could connect it to that item. But if they found the item without the tag, they may not be able to connect it back to him. I've had a case where I actually found the mall where an item was purchased. It was a jacket and a homicide that I had. And it was directly because of that RN number. Hold everything. Joe Scott Morgan, what he is saying

leads me to my next topic. And I don't want to forget this. What is the state doing? Because we keep hearing the defense say, you're not giving me the evidence. You're not giving me the evidence because they're still amassing the evidence. And I was thinking more along the lines of cell phone data, of video data that they could get. Like we keep talking about the white Elantras spotted here and there. And I think they're piecing together a montage of where the Elantra was that night. But what McDonough just said about that tag. And we were earlier talking to Tracy Brown about his behavior, his stoic, severe and methodical behavior in court. Who folds up the receipt and puts the tag from the clothes and leaves it on top of the receipt and there it remains.

But McDonough is saying you get that tag that could be traced back to a lot, L-O-T, a lot, the exact factory that made them, where they were sent, what area of the country. He's right. Just what if, just go with me on this. What if we could trace back to that particular Walmart and catch Koberger getting it, seeing him on surveillance video? I mean, and then what became of it seeing him on surveillance video i mean and then what became of it where did it go just like the k bar now okay hold that thought and what about the shoes you said we haven't even gotten to the shoes well i hadn't even thought about the shoes except he may

have been wearing footies you know like in surgery, or shoe covers. And if I could just for a second, I worked in the morgue for a long, long time, Nancy. I've participated or assisted in over 7,000 autopsies. You know what I always had on my feet? Shoe covers. And the reason you have shoe covers, and I don't want to be too graphic here, but there's a lot of blood spilled at autopsies. And it just saturates everything, super saturates everything. And the idea that he could have potentially have gone into this environment, committed this heinous crime. And from what we understand, at least at this point, it is very brutal. There will be blood evidence, if not on the bottom of the shoes, certainly on the tops. So what became of the footwear? You know, early on, we heard we heard a comment about van shoes or vans that turned out.

You know, I don't know if they dismissed that or whatever the case was. I heard that there were people that occupied that house that had vans. also tossed away along with gloves and this dickie and the knife in some area? Were they taken to the river and tossed in there? Or is it the Albertsons, which I was kind of fascinated by as well? Why not just toss it in the dumpster at a grocery store like that where it's not going to be tracked necessarily? Everything that I've seen to date is concerning to me because it's exculpatory. And I want to I need to clarify this. When all of the records are produced and the dust settles and I have time to review it, I reserve the right to say, no, now I'm seeing everything. Here's what I'm seeing.

There may be a very good reason the defense has not seen all the scientific evidence yet, because the state is still amassing evidence. What is it? Will it be the nail in Koberger's coffin for the brutal quadruple slay of four beautiful University of Idaho students? For instance, listen. Since a broad gag order was enacted in the case, the public has not learned of any evidence against Brian Koberger outside of that listed in the probable cause affidavit. A search warrant returned from Koberger's apartment revealed several items were seized that may prove damning for the accused killer.

Eight human hairs and one suspected animal hair were taken from the apartment, along with cuttings from bedding with possible blood stains. Investigators also found black nitrile gloves and took a fire TV device and computer. Okay, just got Morgan joining me along with Howard Bloom, Brian Stewart, Chris McDonough, and Tracy Brown. When we get through this, I want to go through video that Chris McDonough has made himself going through the ins and the outs of the area. It's amazing. Everything falls into place when you can see it for yourself. I learned that out in Idaho.

So Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Animal hair. Did I hear animal hair? What about the dog in the apartment? If, what if? Just think about it. That animal hair that was seized matches back to the dog at the murder scene. Yeah, wouldn't that be something?

You begin to think about species, specifically breed. When you think about the dog that was there at the crime scene, there's a lot of people that have held that certainly, and I think our good friend Cheryl Mack has talked about, was there any contact trace evidence left perhaps on that collar? How well was it secured at that particular time? But, you know, when you think about him, it goes back to LeCard's principle. Every contact leaves a trace. Did he contact that hair? The dog is shedding. It winds up on his clothing.

He goes back or on his hands or somewhere. You never know. It could have contacted his face for all we know. Did he go back and then it was deposited at that location? All of these things have to be considered. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What more evidence is the state amassing? Listen. Part of the hearing on the 14th is to talk about the different parts of that video that we've received and how we need the whole context. This is the video that they say places this car near the residence. We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think

Brian's right to a fair trial means the public needs to know that they've withheld the audio from a great portion of that and that it starts a long time before the little clip that we've received. The little clip that we've received. Okay, control room, could I get you to roll Chris McDonough's video, his drive-through all around the area where the crime was committed? Okay, Chris, go ahead and explain what we're seeing right now. So what we're seeing here, Nancy, is the road that runs parallel to the residence. And you could obviously see this was taken on Thanksgiving Day. The police had still had this area secured. And then this is behind the house, looking to the neighbors to the

left, which if you were looking at the back there, one area that struck me here is this window here. Underneath that window, there is a, like a cinder block you can see it right there my initial impression was if this guy was you know pre incident is surveillance of this house and he had these tendencies like a peeping Tom is is he using that almost like a bench right to sit there to look through the windows those types of things and of, that's just a theory. We don't know that. But at the same time,

I always thought this was the most logical area that this guy would make the entry into the house through that sliding glass door on the back patio. And also the video that you amassed also of the drive-through through the area in the snow. And you went very slowly up and down all the winding streets. And I recall seeing the gas station over on the left of your video. Chris McDonough, that leads me to the car.

That's where the clerk was when the car whizzed by and we got that video. Now, I believe, Chris, that there's going to be a montage of video evidence placing that Elantra all around the area. For instance, we heard that he stopped into Kate's Cup of Joe. Is he on video? Is his car on video? And I think the state is going to put together a montage of video that's not ready yet because they're still amassing it. What about it? Yeah, no, I totally agree with you, Nancy.

There is so much work that still needs to be done. And you've been there. You stood where I stood and looked into that house. And he is, remember, we forget that his background was to kind of teach the police about technology. So I would submit at this point, the authorities are going, okay, this guy thinks this way. So what kind of risk is he going to lower for himself to commit this crime correctly? And if you drive through the town itself, there are videos on those businesses all over the place, evident of the fact we have the victims walking back from the bar and they're caught on video? Well, I would submit to

you, he is aware of all of those pieces of, you know, potential evidence that could throw him under the bus. And the car in of itself, you know, the Idaho Department of Transportation would have access to a lot of cameras. I know there's been some, you know, according to some of the information that I've received, that he's not on a whole bunch of stuff. And the stuff that they're showing us today, they're pretty solid in their feeling that this is him traveling through those roads. I guarantee you by trial time, there's going to be a video montage of Koberger on his route, leaving the house, driving to the house. And that white Elantra is going to pop up in multiple videos.

Also, that leads me to the conclusion that authorities are looking along that route right now for the murder weapon. As Brian Koberger's trial approaches, Ann Taylor will do everything she can to take the death penalty off the table. Many predict that Taylor will use the same tactics cult mom Lori Vallow's team employed to escape the death penalty. In Vallow Daybell's case, prosecutors were barred from pursuing the punishment

when the court found they had failed to turn over all discovery to the defense. Ann Taylor may argue that the cell phone data collected by investigators is unreliable and attack the DNA found on the knife sheath. We know those attacks are going to happen on the evidence, but will Ann Taylor take a page out of cult mom Lori Vallow's lawyers and claim discovery wasn't handed over in time and therefore the death penalty must be taken off the table. What evidence is it that the state is amassing? Trial strategy. Straight out to Howard Bloom joining us, author of When the Night Comes Falling. What do you make of what you are hearing? Well, what I've been hearing all along is that the state has been deliberately delaying things.

I mean, the defense has a very good case that the state has taken way too long to amass all this evidence. Hold on. Did you not hear anything we're saying? The state is very likely still amassing evidence as we speak. So how can they hand it over when they don't have it yet? I disagree. I disagree. I disagree. How long does it take to amass all this evidence? We're talking about a year and a half on an important case, and they have all this task force working, plus the feds, and they can't get it together in time. They are dragging their heels. They're not showing the professionalism necessary. Okay, let's go forward with that. Brian C. Stewart, I know you've tried a lot of cases, but I have had cases where there

actually was newly discovered evidence. And if you're talking about using satellites or amassing video from different stores, still looking for the murder weapon, still trying to triangulate cell phone data. I mean, that takes a long time. I mean, I understand people that are not familiar with the technicalities of amassing cell phone data and video data. It doesn't happen overnight, Brian. Absolutely. And we don't know that they are still amassing more cell phone data or DNA data or surveillance data. But they said that they've turned over everything that they have to date.

And even if they have done that, they'll continue to investigate and try to run down loose ends all the way until trial. Well, bottom line, Chris McDonough, based on your drive-thru, they have a lot of territory to cover. If they're looking for video of that Elantra, agree, disagree? Yeah, absolutely. 100% I agree that they're looking for video of that data and they have to connect those dots back to him. So yeah, the investigation is still fluid. It's moving. Just got Morgan just in one last example, a data dump, a data dump of all the cell phones that were in use in that area at that time. Now, we know he cut a cell phone off, but leading up to that and immediately following that. How long does that take to amass thousands and thousands of cell phone entries? Doesn't take this long.

And that's the big ask here. I don't understand why it has taken so long relative to the digital data and also the CCTV data. Joe Scott, were you not watching the Alex Murdoch case? Were you and I watching two different trials when Alex Murdoch was prosecuted for double murder? Because the state started trying day one to get the NAV system data out of Alex Murdoch's car. And they went round and round. I think it was with GM.

What they went through. I mean, can you imagine taking on GM to get that data? How do I know that's not what they're looking at right now? I don't think they're dragging their feet. I think they're still working furiously. Yeah. I don't think they're dragging their feet. I think they're still working seriously. Yeah, I'm not saying they're dragging their feet. However, I don't understand why it is taking so long. And with the Elantra, if there is a system on board in this particular model, how long does it take to process all of that data?

And they might be trying to correlate it also with the cell data that they have. Nancy? Yeah, jump in. I think there's a semantics here to necessarily understand. They have amassed the data. It's processing the data that takes all the time. And that's what the delay is, I would submit. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.