Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER'S CASUAL CONVO W/ CLERK ON MURDERS HE COMMITTED

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

Newly-released video shows Bryan Kohberger getting his license plates replaced at a Washington DMV office days after killing four University of Idaho students in 2022. On November 18, 2022, just five days after the murders, Kohberger is seen on the surveillance footage at a Department of Motor Vehicles building in Pullman. During the visit, a DMV worker told Kohberger that the area appears safer than San Francisco, which is where she is from. The employee commented, “I like how small, quiet and I would say safe. But the whole Moscow thing, kinda makes it feel a little less,” before Kohberger said, “Yeah,” and nodded his head in agreement. Notably, Kohberger was later filmed filling out paperwork while wearing black gloves. Kohberger, who requested non-specialty plates, told the DMV worker that he was a Ph.D. student at Washington State University, where he studied criminology. Joining Nancy Grace today: Philip Dubé - Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Bethany Marshall -  Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," and featured in hit show "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic Germania Rodriguez Poleo - Independent Journalist, X: @iamGermania Dave Mack - 'Crime Stories' Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Busted Brian Coburger's casual, casual conversation with a clerk caught on camera, a conversation about the murders he just committed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

I'm going. Brian Coburg. Brian Coburg are caught on this morning. Caught on camera. Busted. including about the murders he just committed. I noticed so much nonverbal communication, which I would love to point out to a jury, but the prosecutor in that jurisdiction was too weak, sphineless, gutless to take this thing to trial

so we could finally hear the facts and the families can note the truth, even if it's a terrible truth, the truth about what happened to their children. I noticed that as he's talking, he's like looking, who does that? Why is he doing that? Obviously, he's looking around to see if anybody's noticed him. He's in a government office. Is he worried he's going to be apprehended somehow? He's looking on, he's wearing, it looks like black plastic gloves. Does nobody notice that? Look at this guy. What black plastic gloves inside? Anyway, there's so much more, but let's just get right down to it. Let's watch

Brian Coburger and his casual convoy, including about the murders, he just committed. Hello. Hi. How's going? Pretty good. I've definitely need to get my license.

Okay. We should be able to help with that. I agree. I think I could have insurance. No. I mean, you have to have it in Washington State, but you don't have to prove it with us.

I do need to know the exact miles there are on your car right now. Let me check that. Okay, perfect. 515. Oh, okay. So you just have to write that exact mileage right here with no 10s. Check the box that says actual, put the state date, and then you'll sign and your street address on the bottom line there. You know, when I have told a lie, typically to my husband, I get hot.

all over. I feel bad. I almost always go back and correct it and tell the truth. Unless it's something like, no, I'm too short. I can't see your ball spot. Just I can't take it. Do you see this guy? Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Bravo and on Peacock. And you can find at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I get hot all over, and I imagine I turn red, and I can't live with the telling of the lie. It eats me up.

Do you see this guy? I do, Nancy. And what's interesting is a lot of the searches on his phone were under psychopathic paranoia, which suggests that there was a part of his personality that was quite paranoid about getting caught. On the other hand, after the crime, there were many, many searches about the Moscow murders, so he was fascinated and reliving. I think at this point in the DMV, he felt it was a safe environment, there's no police around. He chatted for 13 minutes with this woman, and I think Nancy that he was reliving the glory of the crime. He's proud of himself. Again,

if you think about what's on that phone that was forensically searched, there was a lot of flexing of muscles, a lot of preoccupation with self. He loved himself. He loved looking in the mirror and finding somebody at the DMB who would listen to him. I think that put him in a great... Bethany, do you see what you just did? Look at your monitor. You say the word muscles in the control room can't wait to show Brian Coburger without his shirt on. I think. I've seen that enough. Thank you. Please take that down. Okay. What, if anything, does that mean? And how are you can, it's still there? What does that have to do with what we're looking at today? Why are you talking about him flexing muscles? Because he's preoccupied with himself. He loves himself. He's only attached to himself. And anybody who will give him attention, he'll suck up the time. There's probably people behind him at the DMB waiting and he talks for 13 minutes. Nancy, he loves himself and he loves what he did and he wants to talk about it. He might have even been aroused or sexually excited while he was talking about it since I believe it was a sexually motivated crime.

It could have been almost like a masturbatory experience like going over the details. He might also have been trying to convince himself that nobody really knew that he was a perpetrator. So trying to get clues from the clerk about what she might have read or what people, you know, word on the street was, so to speak. You know, that's very insightful because I've seen a lot of killers before they're caught asking, hey, what do you think? What do you think about that? Have you heard about this?

Have you heard about that? And they seem to relish of it and go so far as to say it's a masturbatory endeavor, but I would say that they enjoy reliving it. And you may be right. I just don't want to think about Brian Coburger's nether parts right now. Straight out to Hermannia Rodriguez-Paleo investigative journalist joining us tonight. Hermania, thank you for being with us. Why is he getting his tag changed out?

He actually had very convenient timing, Brian Koviger, because within days of the murder, both his actual license was also expiring and his registration. So he went in there and did it all together and switched his plate from a Pennsylvania one, which was the one he had on when he committed the murders, to a Washington state one. And that's part of what we know by now he did to cover his tracks, as well as wearing those bulky gloves wherever he went. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensic, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit new podcast, Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thanks for being with us tonight. Joe Scott, timing, timing, timing. Timing is everything. changing out his tag.

Wow. And just in case someone got the tag the night of the murders, he's there bright and early getting rid of that tag. Yeah, he is. And again, going to Hermione's comment, it is a matter of convenience, right? You know, how much more time did he have in order to do this? And why hadn't he done it in days prior to that? And so from a circumstantial standpoint, you begin to think about, hmm, I wonder, I

wonder what his underlying rationale was for doing this. And of course, we'll never really know, but he shows up and it is very, very convenient for him to do this. Also, you know, he's emboldened in order to do this, to walk in. And hey, that car that he left the scene in, it's right outside that door, Nancy, right outside that door. You know what I'm thinking about right now? I'm thinking about what's the status of the interior of this car right now? As it's right outside that door, I want to know had he already begun to clean this thing up. You know, early on, I'd said that this car was going to be a rolling crime scene. And he held onto that car for a protracted period of time because he was never caught up to.

You know, had he begun to clean that car? Here he is walking from the outside in and he's looking back over his shoulder. You know, and now he's going to change the plates out. And somehow that's going to put people off at that point in time, put them off the scent potentially. every little thing that he can do, did he still have the knife at this point, Nancy? Is it out in the car? I don't know.

You're seeing shots now. Please keep playing them. Brian Kodberg's White Elantra, the night of the murders. And you know, another thing, you know, I just want to keep looking at this video. Another thing, Joe Scott Morgan, when I visited his apartment in Pullman,

about 11 minutes away from the murder scene, I looked for cameras. cameras in his parking lot, there where he lived. I would love to find out if those cameras caught him cleaning out his car the way that he was caught under surveillance, not by cameras, but by actual LE law enforcement, cleaning out his car just in a weird way, cleaning it and cleaning it obsessively outside his parents' home in the Poconos. I guess, guarantee you he did the same thing there in Pullman outside his apartment. And he has a big parking. There's a big parking lot outside his apartment, a communal parking lot. Yeah.

And I guarantee you there are witnesses to him cleaning out his car. Yeah, I'm thinking about the silent witness. You talked about the CCTV potential here. Nancy, can you imagine if he is seen, if they have video capture, can you imagine him actually taking backs after he's cleaned and putting them in the car and then he's going to convey them somewhere else. You know, one of the big questions is what happened to all of the stuff? What happened to all of these potential items, particularly from a DNA standpoint, from a blood evidence standpoint, that could tie him back to this particular savage massacre. Had they been dumped off in some dumpster that's far away from the apartment complex? Did he take that much care? And here's something else. You know, I work at a university,

Nancy. It's like a little city. Okay. It's vast. You've got to dumpsters all over the place. What if he went back onto campus there in Pullman and just started throwing stuff away in the random dumpsters? No one is going to be any of the wiser. However, I can't tell you this about universities. They've got CCTV everywhere. You're always being watched. And I really wonder if there's any video captures there from the university, parking lot going to dumpsters and putting stuff in the dumpsters there at Washington State. Guys, busted, caught on video. You're hearing Dr. Bethany and Hermione Rodriguez and Joseph Scott Morgan describing,

coulda, would, or shoulda, all the evidence the prosecutor had to get the death penalty. But no, a weak plea. I would venture to guess that that prosecutor is the weak link in the judicial system, in the justice system. That said, wait until you hear the rest of his very casual conversation with the DMV clerk, including about the murders. He just committed. What color is the vehicle? And we have to know that he's the limited. All right.

All right. Thank you. Bye. I wish it was important. Was that the better package? Yeah, do they not have that one? I didn't know that one. I didn't find it.

Oh, okay. Yeah, the same like a shortage on the car. It's hard to find a part right now. I've known a couple people that have like ordered the car they wanted and hasn't wait a year for it to be delivered because they just didn't have it until a year later. Yeah. Sports versions. Yeah.

Those are the most popular. They're going still bad. Yeah. Are you a giant-spanning? I am. I'm from the Bay Area. I'm actually from the East Coast. Oh, okay.

I'm hoping you guys don't get Josh. I'm hoping we do. So you're from New York. How are you liking it over here? Actually from Pennsylvania. Oh, you're from Pennsylvania. Oh, yeah. And then you were...

Yeah, but families from Brooklyn. Brooklyn. Oh, okay. So that's how you... Yeah. Whatever I thought. I think that's fair. Yeah, I mean, moving up in the Bay Area,

my grandma and my dad were huge giant fans. So, like, just falling in the family line. I'm just, I don't even know what to say. There is Brian Coburger with blood probably still under his fingernails. Talking about, are you a Giants fan? You know, to Philip DuBay joining us, A veteran trial lawyer has tried a lot of cases. L.A. County Public Defender's Office.

And you know what? The Public Defender's Office gets a lot of grief because people think they're free. They get paid by the government. They try more cases than practically any other defense attorney. They take all, they have to take all the cases nobody else wants. In other words, they get a lot of trial experience, just like prosecutors do. You can't turn it down. It's yours, whether you want it or not.

That said, DeBay, I'm not asking you to reveal any client confidence, of course. I wouldn't even waste my breath on that. But in all of your years in court, have you ever known somebody was guilty and you'll look back and they're sitting across the table talking to you about sports and food and restaurants and activities and hobbies? And they're a stone cold killer. It's really hard to reconcile. that? Not for me, because I look at it from a legal standpoint. I don't sit there and stand in

judgment of my client. It's almost like a doctor in the ER or in the ICU at a hospital who has to treat a gangbanger who just sprayed up a neighborhood and he got shot back and now he's in the hospital. The doctors still have a hypocritic oath to first do no harm and save the young man's life. Well, that's what we do in a legal context. We don't stand in judgment of our clients and we do whatever we can to protect illegal interests. I don't have to like them. Did I ask you if you judge them?

Did I? No, I did not ask you if you judge them. I don't judge my witnesses. They are what they are. I take them as they come. I asked you, did it ever dawn on you when you're having a casual convoy with a stone cold killer that is kind of weird? weird. That never hit you?

Not really. Maybe in the first 10 years. Okay. Cut his mic right now because that's a total BS lie, Dr. Bethany. He would have to be Deube would have to have the emotions of like a frog.

You ever held a frog? Probably not. Have you ever held a frog and it looks at you and it blinks and it has no emotion? It's cold-blooded, right? It feels nothing, that was BS. Any thinking person would get skeved out, and I know that's not one of your psychological terms, when you know you've been sitting there talking to a stone cold killer, I don't mean a person that gets angry in the heat of the moment pulls the trigger. That's bad enough. But I mean stone cold sets out to murder somebody and in this case for no reason. No. No.

No anger, no revenge, no sex motive, no theft motive. Not that that murders any less horrible. But my point is carrying on a conversation, a normal conversation, and the whole time, this guy could just reach over with a strap razor and slit your throat and he'd be fine with it. I do wonder, Nancy, when I see patients like that, where I know they've committed a crime or, worse yet, they've come to therapy to actually gain some help. in concealing the crime or they're paranoid because they're about to be caught. I do have that even in my Beverly Hills office. And what's interesting is that their presentation is so smooth on the

surface. And yet I know, and they know, I know, something is going on. But furthermore, when you look at Koeberger's affect, his emotions, the way he's talking to this woman, he is a really strange, strange guy. There's no picture I've ever seen of him where he looks normal. And anybody sitting, in front of him is going to have to wonder what the heck is going on. But Nancy, there's something more. The digital evidence, the investigators that went through his phone, determined that he was quite obsessive and he had no friends other than his parents. So I believe that he's flirting with this woman at the DMV because that's the only person he can kind of lock down into a conversation because it's the DMV, right? I mean, they're there to serve their customers.

Nancy, did you know he called his mother at 5 o'clock every single morning? Then he called his parents again to fall asleep. He almost stalked and pestered his parents. He would he would text his mother saying, five o'clock, question mark. She would text back 5.30, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Like, don't call me so early in the morning. So he, he would text back 5. So, he would text back 5. So, he would text back 5. like don't call me so early in the morning. So since they were his only relationships, can you imagine he has this 13 minutes with this woman at the DNV? She's not sitting in a bar with a drink.

She knows she's safe. She knows she's behind the counter. So she's talking sports. And that's probably a very new experience for him, given the fact that he probably creeped women out everywhere he went. Joe Scott Morgan, why will nobody answer my question? Why?

I don't get it. It's a simple question. Now, I'm going to try with you. Pretty soon I'll be going to Hermione Rodriguez. She's a reporter and may not have had this experience, but I think you have. Have you ever sat down with a stone cold killer? And in retrospect, look back and went, he could have just slit my throat. I thought about it.

I don't think about it in the moment. Like when I'm tromping through a housing project, trying to find a witness, when I'm sitting across a table, from a killer and we're talking about him rolling over on his co-defendant killer. It's later that I let, because I'm in the moment and I can't afford to think about anything other than what I'm doing. But later, if you allow yourself to think about it, how can someone be apparently so normal, yet we know what he just did? We know what he just did.

I mean, is nobody remembering what happened to Kelly? Kelly Gonzalez. He hit her so hard and beat her so hard and knocked her teeth out. Just stabbing her in the face, in the face, in the face. The same thing to Maddie, just horrible, horrible desecration of their bodies and their beauty. Not happy until the place was covered in blood. And here he is chatting up at DMV. Are you a Giants fan?

My rare end. That's the brutality of it because the thing about it is he can slip in and out of this world that we exist in, even after having participated in this kind of event. And yeah, in answer to your question, when as an investigator, when you're talking to somebody, you're in that moment. You're trying to elicit information from them. And I've had those moments, Nancy, where I go to a very dark place afterwards when I have time to think about who I was just in dwelling the same space with, who I was just breathing the same oxygen. And I think about what kind of horror that they have just committed, maybe multiple times over and over again, but yet I'm trying to get information out of them.

And so, yeah, it's a really dark place to go to, but you see this kind of psychopathy with him. And again, I'm getting into Dr. Bethany's space. I apologize for that. But you have to admit, when you see these images from the scene, Nancy, and I know you have, as well as I have as well, this place is blood saturated. And this kind of drives home the point of what an animalistic event this was at the scene and that he can flip this switch, turn on and off. And, you know, he's got that kind of, I don't know, it looks like, do you remember back in the 60s

when they had the chimpanzees that would smile blankly. You know, they had those, the chimpanzee smile. That's what he looks at like. You know, the dead eyes, kind of the fake smile, looking back and forth. And I think that that might be what Dr. Bethany's talking about, where it's just very, very dark. There's a disconnect here where he has no remorse whatsoever. He has no, certainly had no compassion at that moment in time.

And here we are dangling in the wind all of this time later. they copped this plea on this guy and he never allocated to anything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Tell me exactly what's going now. One of our, one of the roommates who passed out and she was drunk last night and she was drunk last night and she didn't let me up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night.

Yeah. Hi, just see. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now?

I don't really know but pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone is passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on. Come on. Let me go check. One of the gals yelling something. There's somebody in the house.

One of a dirty sheep of me. That's a signer. He may have never been downstaged. We can only wonder how a jury would have reacted seeing this video. Now, the defense would try to stop it at trial, claiming it was irrelevant, which is one of the weakest objections you can raise at trial. Why? Because it doesn't hold anything on appeal. What do I mean by that?

If you make an objection at trial and you say, objection irrelevant, you're not preserving anything for appellate review. that does not qualify as an appealable error. You have to say something like, objection, inflammatory, objection, hearsay, objection, it's not the highest and best evidence. You have to have a real foundation, not just interrupting the other lawyer's flow of questioning.

When somebody, when a defense attorney or prosecutor, objection irrelevant, it's usually overruled. Once in a while, you might get a system. but the defense would try to stop this as being irrelevant because they don't want the jury to see his cold and duplicitous nature that he can be a killer and act like a normal guy, like nothing ever happened, which totally would freak the jury out. But the prosecutor would raise one day, respond that the jury can, consider evidence before, during, and after the crime. So this would have been allowed at trial.

This would be in front of the jury. And I'm very curious to know what you think as you are watching Brian Coburger, a stone cold killer of defenseless coeds, half asleep with a knife, a K-bar. Just imagine him going from room to room, slaughtering, slaughtering those four students and liking it. Then turning up at the DMV to get a new license and a new tag and carrying on completely normal conversation. You hear the word, the phraseology, the description, Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde a lot.

This is him. Let's watch. I am. I am originally from the Bay Area, yeah. Yeah. You're Andrew. Okay. Okay. And I like living up here much better than you help.

Yeah, I don't think that. You happen to have the purchase order for when you bought it? It's definitely a big difference. Yeah, huge difference, right? Because when I really like you, I like how small and white and I wouldn't take safe, but the little box. kind of makes it feel a little less safe right now. Yep. She says, I like how small, quiet, and I would say safe,

but the whole Moscow thing kind of makes it feel a little less safe. And at that point, Hermannia Rodriguez-Paleo investigative journalist, he clams up. He doesn't say anything. He just stands there. Goes quiet. Did you notice that? It's so creepy and shocking, considering how he was.

acting just seconds before. One could even argue they were a little bit of flirting, just talking about sports, how nice the area is, until that moment. And it's truly chilling because the moment she mentions the murders, Brian Coburger's mask sort of slips. And he's all of a sudden not so talkative and just given one word answers. It's really fascinating to watch that mask fall off. And that, Dr. Bethany Marshall,

what we mean by non-verbal communication. He immediately switches the conversation to, I think, the weather. Yes, Nancy, sociopaths wear, what I've called so many times, the mask of sanity. It's not my term. It's a research term. And that means that they can act and pass as normal in society, even though there's so much going on underneath the surface. And in fact, with Koeberger, one of the things we know was going on beneath the surface was that most of the searches on his phone were for non-consensual sex pornography. There was no search for normal pornography. It was all non-consensual, whatever that means. So he's in this situation where the mask starts to slip just a little bit because she brought it up and he clams up. I think he's thinking, you know, he's an obsessive guy. He's probably going through his mind wondering what she knows, what everybody else knows.

And also, he doesn't have the power in that situation. Have you ever been to the TMV? They have the power. You don't have the power. So he's in a situation where he has to, like, play nice, follow the rules, get his tags. He can't intimidate, threaten, or stand over her like he did all the university students when he was a teacher's aide, right? Or the women at the bars where he was so creepy and standing over them that the bartenders

and the bar owners had to ask him to leave. No, this is the DMV. He has to act and pass as normal, but even there, Nancy, it's hard for him to do that. That's what we see when he clams up. And, of course, the big tail is the big rubber gloves. I was just looking at everyone else there. Nobody else is wearing gloves. So to you, Philip Dubay, veteran trial lawyer joining us out of the L.A.

jurisdiction, Philip, how would you keep the jury from seeing this video? to be honest with you i don't have a problem with them seeing it you got to remember the time of year when was this december it's probably colder than an arctic outhouse there and the man can put some gloves on a key form he's just coming in from the outdoors so people who are working there behind the counter probably have a space heater and some warmth going on so i think that would be unfair to judge him based on that now when she does bring up the moscow for murder he does get a little skittish he starts shipped in his weight around. He goes from one foot to the next, and he's looking a little paranoid, obsessive, and frankly a little scared. But he manages to still engage in the pleasantries

in the small talk to throw anybody and everybody off the scent. So I don't find anything unusual about this. And moreover, one final point. Remember, he is a non-resident of Washington. So they have what's called the 30 and 183-day rule, meaning that he's got to get his tags and his plates current. within the 30-day and the 183-day period, especially if he has a job. Otherwise, he can be cited and fined and maybe even do some jail time and have his car impounded and stored. Okay. Thank you for the dissertation on the traffic law.

Joe Scott Morgan, so to hear debate tell it, he's absolutely fine if his client is having a convoy and it's caught on tape. And the woman says, I'm really scared. of the, you know, after the Moscow murders. And their client goes, isn't the weather awesome? I love the sun. How do you feel about the sun? That doesn't bother you?

Of course it would, particularly now in hindsight, knowing what we know from this perspective, what had just occurred, just, you know, well, let's break it down within hours of preceding him walking into this place. You know, they're still out at the scene. at this point, Nancy. I think that that's very important here because we're focused on him, and I know that we have the videography of him there, but let's think about this just for a moment. They're still out there, Nancy. They're still out there working that scene at that particular time. The bodies have not necessarily been sent to families at this point in time, but yet there he is, and all of his glory on CCTV. You know, people are still scratching their heads over

thing at this point, Tom. You remember what it was like during that period of time. We were thinking, you know, is this beast walking up and down the street? Who is this individual? And there he is. There he is in full and living color on CCTV, acting like he's just, you know, showing up, you know, to change out his tags. And yeah, you can see that she grabs his attention as soon as the Moscow crimes come up at that moment, Tom. And again, that adds another level. of chill to this, Nancy. You're going to the university? Hey?

No, no. Oh, nice. Yeah, it's definitely not above your grad. You would like to release your liability. Yeah. It's an interesting thing to you, certainly, it's a lot for all. Did you give the title? It's the best.

When I mean from, I mean, I want to look very small. Did you start the title? So, so it's completely different. So that is, like, like, you release, like, big. Yeah. Now, you want to do a report. Yeah, that is very impressive. You know, I always knew it was like a really big university, you know, but I can't hear that many people.

Wow. We do these. But I think they're good things, you know, they got good programs and stuff, so. Yeah, they do have good programs, I will say. Yeah. So are you planning on meeting around with them for a little while? Do you in the program and then see where like take tips? I do like Pullman.

Okay. But I'm not tired of, sir. So is the new one you got a same? I can get a job. Yeah. I may have to go pretty much. Right here. Talk about a self-important snoot.

Bethany, did you hear that? Hey, do you go to the university here? Yeah, PhD. I'm definitely not an undergrad. And then she says impressive. Like, he's moving towards bragging and posturing at that point. Probably what he does everywhere in his life, right? He tries to brag and insert himself into.

positions of superiority and importance. And so it's like it just takes only a couple minutes, Nancy, before he starts to brag and become grandiose and circle back to what a great guy he is. And then all of a sudden, I heard her scream and she ran downstairs because she saw someone. That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She's someone here and she screamed and just ran downstairs. And I called for her name, but I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And I heard some in the bathroom when I heard her crying and I heard some guys say that you're going to be okay. I'm going to help you. And I kept calling her name, but she wasn't answering.

He calls Mommy, speaks nearly an hour driving around the crime scene. Brian Coburger did not pretend he was sane. It was apparent to everybody around him. literally just hours after committing four brutal cold-blooded murders Brian Coburger waltzes into the DMV to get a new tag and license how he kept his straight face and carried on normal conversation is a wonder it's a curiosity let's listen new title should have been in the mail in about her week so keep an eye out for that

it was been a month and you still just let us know because we can reassure make sure the ones with six both on the back of the rig and the one with alcohol on the front and I know and the if we've walked in now so if you ever sell a paid to be in a link it's like yeah why why isn't it's just for sure i don't know why why is this I don't know, we're like one of the only states to require both. And I was wondering why exactly. You're all set and good to go and those are yours. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, and the Pennsylvania place on the vehicle? Yeah. You should double check with Pennsylvania. They might be required to send them back. Or they charge you. I don't believe that they do because I'm off using their car. Oh, okay.

But yeah, you should be good. I always check a lot of the state to do. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely went into that. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Have a good one.

Yeah, you too. Have a great weekend. Good. Thank you. Did Joe Scott Morgan? Did you hear him say, have a good one? Yeah. Actually, I did.

You know, just business as usual, right? Going back out to the car and I guess tooling back off to his apartment there on campus at Washington State University, Nancy. Yeah, just very calm, collected at that moment, Tom. And again, I think that this is some kind of gate that he kind of passed through here. You know, he's kind of testing the waters. I wonder if this is the first time he was out and about after these events. You know, did he decide to, yeah, well, I think I'll just go out into,

it looks like it's really illuminated out there. I think I'll just go out in the sunny day and get my car and run down to the DMV, stick my toe in the water and see if anybody emerges from around the counter or around the corner to put the bracelets on me and haul me away. And he passed that gate, didn't he? So, you know, I began to think about that. And then reflectively, I think again about the absolute destruction and horror that he left in his wake at that apartment or at that house there on King Road. So for me, you know, trying to, trying to balance these two things out, his appearance at that, at that counter. and then what had happened is really hard to try to understand.

But Nancy, you know, they never said criminal investigation is easy, certainly not when you're talking about a massacre on this scale. Also tonight, we have obtained body cam. I want you to hear it as well. We're going to seal this bad way up here pretty quick, and all four victims are the funeral home. So once we get evidence stuff accountable, I'm going to leave here and we'll come back in them,

them basically so yeah you get to a place where you're good to stop and you'll just catch up in the morning all right man thank you help she heard something around four o'clock this morning she said it was one of the victims playing with the dog what she thought it was she had heard that saint victim yelled something to the effect of there's someone in the house she opened her door thought she saw someone at the top of the stairs shut her go here she heard now crying, crying in the bathroom. You heard of a male. It's nice to say something's in line of the effects of.

It's okay. I'm here for you. You opened up the door again and saw a bell dressed in black. He's standing by the back door. Here are two claims. He's Caucasian based off the little cutouts in the eyes. Contact. That is a stark contrast. You're talking about Joe Scott Morgan.

You've got him at the DMV saying, hey, have a good one. Right after this, where the roommate realizes her four others, the four others have been murdered and she somehow was spared and she looked at the killer in the eyes and somehow escaped death. And you hear it start off all four victims on the way to the funeral home. I mean, that is just like a slap, a cold slap in the face for the victim's families, all four on the way of the funeral home, just so casually tossed off. Yeah, yeah, it is. And, you know, I go back to what what the police officer stated relative to the comment that Coburger made about, I'm here to help you.

I wonder if he had that same stupid grin on his face with those dead eyes as he was saying that there. And in amongst that bloodbath that he had created. And again, in this kind of passe way, you know, just like he's talking at the counter right here, almost robotic, right? I wonder if that's the way he treated, treated those victims inside of that environment. Did he ever, did his blood pressure ever increased? Did his pulse rate ever increased? Or was he just an absolute animal? And again, removing the bodies from the scene and you're, you know, this is kind of one of the first times that we've really heard this,

this is very intimate information about the bodies being removed from the scene so that they can go to the funeral home and then be transported. over for the autopsies that would follow later. And again, I go back to this idea that he's at the DMV while all of this is happening. And again, this is that night, but just thinking that they're still out there processing the scene. Remember what the police officer said. He said, we'll come back in the morning and we'll get started again, I guess, at first light. They're still working this thing, Nancy, in real time. I think a lot of people forget about that.

And particularly, you match it up with his interaction at the DMV. and it really sends a chill up your spawn. Dr. Bethany, listening to Joe Scott talking just then, I guess when you're a victim of violent crime, it never goes away because when I heard the body cam, all four victims, they're on the way of the funeral home, and then I heard Joe Scott talking about it.

I remember when my fiancé was murdered, it didn't seem real. I thought, oh, if I can just get to him, I can fix it. He said a car accident, maybe this is wrong. and then I saw my pastor Wright Bernstein funeral home. I can remember that? It just happened. I wonder if the victim's parents have heard that body cam. I hope they haven't.

I mean, they've seen a lot worse, but there's just something about the finality and a funeral home and the smell of all those fake flowers. It just makes it all. just makes it all real. You know, Nancy, there's such a finality to death. And how a loved one dies is important. I lost a husband to cancer many years ago,

and I'll never forget him being wheeled out on a stretcher to go to the funeral home. And it was the look, he was in the body bag. I couldn't see his face anymore. He had died in our home. And anything that is reminiscent of that reminds me of that night, even the color black, even the word funeral home. Any tiny little thing can cause that kind of a flashback. And there's something so tragic about this scene I want to

point out, the DMV clerk says, you're good to go. I think she's trying to push him along at that point. She has the power to push him along. She's behind the counter. She's safe. Did you see that dog in the video? There's a dog running around. You know, her friends and cars. colleagues are all around her. These four victims in this home could not move him along. They could not. They were half asleep. He had a cabar knife. He's more powerful than them. They're not in a safe place like the DMV worker. Nancy, his biggest preoccupation co-burgers was a guy named Danny Rawlings, the Gainesville Ripper, who committed a similar crime, targeted college students, dressed in black, accused a K-bar knife, sexually assaulted the victims first.

I do believe this could have been worse. I do believe something happened where he was not able to sexually assault them before committing the crime. Perhaps he was too inexperienced and a novice, got interrupted, heard a noise. We cannot imagine what happened. We cannot imagine how the parents feel. But trust me, every day they are thinking about the loss. of their kids, and they are going in horrifying detail over all the interactions, all the details,

all the horrors of that night, and just hoping their children were spared the worst. To the Moscow victims, rest in peace, and to their families, Godspeed to you, you are still in so many prayers. We remember an American hero officer Adam Buckner, Tucson PD, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind, a grieving wife, now widow. American hero, officer Adam Buckner. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.