Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER'S HIDDEN ESSAY REVEALS PLOT TO WALK FREE

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

In an odd and creepy twist, Bryan Kohberger uses his phone to take selfies he never shares with anyone. The selfie photo shoot takes place inside his Washington State University apartment standing in front of a closet filled with blue shirts. Shirtless and wearing earbuds, the coward killer flexes, poses, makes a contorted face with an angry grin showing off his yellow teeth and at one point he salutes the camera, revealing a cut to the knuckle on the ring finger of his left hand that may have come from his murderous rampage in Moscow.  We also learn as  investigators met with classmates, professors and other university staff, they describe Kohberger as creepy, domineering, with one classmate saying Kohberger would be the type of professor who would harass and stalk students. The interviews included individuals from all aspects of college campus life from classrooms, offices, hangout spots, and in each case the same result: Kohberger’s mere presence was enough to set people on edge.    When Kohberger shows a “keen interest” in an undergraduate assistant, a WSU faculty member keeps a close watch. She witnesses the future killer standing at her assistant’s desk, directly behind her looking over her shoulder as she worked. Because of Kohberger’s behavior, another professor is asked to escort the assistant to her car after work.   In a class where Kohberger is the teaching assistant, a female student says whenever she looks up, he is starting at her. He rarely speaks to students, but the co-ed says no matter when she would leave the class, he would time his exit to leave when she did and then follow her to her car. Another graduate student says she caught Kohberger “aggressively” staring at her 9 times in one class and followed her after class. She says he always seemed to want to be in “the general area of her and others in the program that didn’t want anything to do with him”  ....  One female student targeted by Kohberger says the killer trailed her after class, would block her path when she tried to leave conversations with him and he would stare at her with such intensity and regularity that she began keeping a count of the encounters.  It's a pattern that seemed to repeat itself with the murder victims.  Now, newly discovered essays written by Kohberger reveal his plan to get out of jail.  Joining Nancy Grace today, Josh Kolsrud - Criminal Defense Attorney and Former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Founder of Kolsrud Law Offices, kolsrudlawoffices.com, Facebook and YouTube @KohlsrudLawOffices Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy),  www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: @TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology"   Chris McDonough -Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective,   Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks   Dave Mack - Crime Stories, Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Cobroger's hidden essay reveals a plot to walk free. This essay found in thousands of pages of documents in his apartment. Is it a harbinger of things to come? Also, Coburger screaming from behind bars, I have mental health disorders, set me free. And tonight are more Coburger victims emerging. How many are there that we don't know about?

I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. He was very socially in it and speaking on the phone for hours with his parents every single day. He is proud. This is right after the moment. murders. Thumbs up, self-aggrandizing smile, all cleaned up. He just wants to have power over people. He's a machine, a killing machine. Okay, before I get into the thousands of pages

that are being poured over as we speak, one revealing his plot to get a reversal, have his plea deal overthrown. And guess what? It includes claims of prosecutorial misconduct. But before I can get to that, I've got to talk to Susan Hendricks joining us about the creepy selfies, the shirtless selfies, new ones that have just emerged. Exactly. Susan Hendricks joining us, journalist, investigative reporter, author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi, to the control room. I'd like to see the new selfies. Actually, that was a misstatement. I wouldn't like to see them. I'm going to have to, oh, dear Lord, I'm going to have to report on them. Just hold that. What the hay? What,

okay, tell me, Susan, tell me what this is and why I'm having to look at Koeberger without a shirt on, flexing and staring into the camera. Why is this happening? Yeah, they are cringeworthy. And for the company that look through his data his cell phone they found out that he does he actually have his pants pulled down toward his crotch so i can see more of his belly button hair what you know like in a sports illustrated magazine you know cover the uh swimsuit is pulled down just a tantalizing bit too low is that what he's doing ew it's gross it's cringe worthy i feel for the families who have to look at that and i was looking at each picture getting grossed out by the way but kind of wondering what is he thinking there he didn't send these to anyone there for himself

it reminded me of american psycho that movie just loving himself it is cringworthy disgusting there he is flexing it's it's perplexing seeing all this evidence what was on his phone okay i i think it's deeper than that because dr sherry schwartz joining us forensics like a psychologists specializing capital mitigation at panther mitigation.com. She is the author of criminal behavior and where a law and psychology intersect. Dr. Sherry, thank you for being with us. I noticed that in one of the photos, and I got a lot more important things to discuss with you, but I had to show these creepy selfies.

And I want you to juxtapose these selfies, Dr. Sherry, with the fact that we know that Kelly Gonzalez was standing. in the face 30 times or more. Isn't it true Joe Scott Morgan that when, oh, it hurts to even say it and look at her beautiful face. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and death investigator. Isn't it true, Joe Scott, that when you have multiple stab wounds, as you and I've discussed before, that they begin to overlap because the person is bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, like that with a, in this case, the K bar knife. And those stab wounds hit each other, as I've referred to it as biting jello.

You can't look at the jello and tell how many bites there were. So we know of 30 stab wounds, Kiela Gonzalez-Sovas, sustained to her face. I believe it was Zana that sustained 50 plus stab wounds. Now, now I'm having to look at his shirtless selfies. Joe Scott, explain overlapping stab wounds. and what was done to Kelly. Yeah, well, when you begin to think about this, Nancy, this also gives you an indication that he is literally on top of her

because of the proximity of all these wounds. You talked about the kind of interlocking or overlapping injuries that she sustained. We're talking about Kaylee, where they are so concentrated that the individual that is perpetrating this has to have this individual pinned in one spot where they cannot move because he keeps hitting the target every single time over and over and over and over again. Not only, not only is he cutting her, incising her, stabbing her. She's also sustained multiple blunt force trauma where her facial bones were fractured as well, Nancy.

Okay, guys, we're talking about the stab wounds only to Kelly Gonzalez right now, but there's so much more. Ethan, jugular was sliced. There was arterial bleeding all the way up to the ceiling. And this guy is taking his shirtless selfies for his own enjoyment. Listen to what Mrs. Gonzalez told us. We actually learned all the truth from her autopsy report, and we were given her autopsy report on a thumb drive during the sentencing. The investigator walked into the courtroom that day and said, and we had arranged that, and he said, here's the autopsy report.

So in reading that autopsy report, we found out that Kaylee had been stabbed 24 times to her face and head. She had 11 to her chest, neck, and, like, torso area, and three to her upper extremities. so I thought about her eyes too I was like was her eyes stabbed but somehow or another Kaylee's eyes had not been stabbed Kaley did have really bad facial damage she or some of her teeth were missing several were broken and she had two subdural hematomas to her head. So her nose was broken badly. Joe Scott Morgan, Kelly's teeth were stabbed out of her mouth. And did you see Steve Gonzalves, her father, at the end of that when they were speaking with us a few days ago?

He, as his wife is speaking, I don't know how she even speaks about it. What strength this woman has. He looks like he just wants to take the camera and rip the head off. It just the anger, seething in them. And do you blame them? Her teeth

were stabbed out of her mouth? No, you're talking about this child's daddy. Just let that sink in. He, I can dollars to donuts, I guarantee you. He wants to reach to that camera and grab somebody. And it ain't one of us. It's the guy that's currently

housed in Idaho Correctional facility. And I can understand why, because Nancy, the brutality in not just Cayley's death, but in all of these deaths, is pretty much unimaginable. You don't send your kids off to

college and expect them to return to you in a casket. It just, it doesn't work that way. It's the most disgusting thing on the face of the planet. And this guy was given, this guy, I'm not going to say his name, I refuse, you can't make

me say his name. This guy was given so much latitude leading up. And now all of this evidence is coming forward, revealing how brutal he was, the timeline leading up to everything. And look, even DNA in this case, it's far more than we ever expected. There was a trail. The prosecutors hid so much evidence, Joe Scott. Let me see Joe Scott. Another thing, which I'm going to get to, but I had to show these selfies of this guy preening in front of the camera. You do know that he has found a way to appeal his guilty plea, and we uncovered it in his essays. But not only that, I just want you to stew on this for a moment. He's now claiming he has all these mental health issues and should be retried or set free.

One of them is an eating disorder. Okay. Hold that thought. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, back to you, joining us forensics experts. psychologist. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, his obsession with American Psycho, I don't get it, but can I talk to you about his preening in front of the camera and flexing? And what it means, it's like Monk. Did you ever see Monk? Monk only wore a certain, he's a brilliant homicide investigator. He only wore one type of shirt every day. I think it was a pale blue button down, just like in this case.

Occasionally, Coburg would go crazy and wear a white button down. But that said, they're lined up behind him and some of the shots. What is this revealing to you? Because the crime scene is blood soaked. It looks like a Jackson Pollock. The closet and the home where he takes these pictures is like bleached clean and there's this freaky row of all blue buttoned down shirts behind him. What is that, Dr. Sherry? I mean, a part of it could be his fascination with some level of fame, even if it is something he'll keep internally to feel better about himself, that he's just like Christian Vale in American Psycho, but he'll do it better and not get caught. We know how that worked out. Um, these selfies are disturbing because we know that they're not being sent to anyone.

They would be disturbing if they're being sent to someone, but in this case, these are for him. And so it suggested me that he has some sort of internal dialogue going on where he's fascinated with this idea of murder, hold on, Dr. Sherry, Dr. Sherry, Dr. Sherry, wait, I want you to look at the screen right now. Okay. Susan Hendricks, uh, I'm going to get Schwartz's analysis. this, but he is saluting the camera. Now, is this particular shot? This was taken after the murders, correct? Susan Hendricks? It absolutely was. And you see that on his knuckle there, the injury. You know, it's almost as if Joe Scott, speaking of the military, he's saying job complete, done, and saluting. Yeah, yeah, he is offering up this half ass salute that he's doing.

But what's more significant there is this a braided area on his knuckle, Nancy. That's key. This thing looks like it's in a state of resolve, but it's still relatively fresh in this image. The edges, from my perspective right now, is kind of dried out. But yeah, how do you explain that? Look, we get dings all the time on our hands, people at work, you know, with their hands. This guy's a PhD student, Nancy. He ain't doing no manual labor.

All right. So we have to begin to think what other kind of injuries did he have that he was presenting with? Did anybody else see anything else on the surface of his skin? And, you know, I begin to think back. We've just discussed the brutality of this multiple homicide, this butchery. He's got to have some injury somewhere. There's something because, you know, when you're using a knife like this over and over again, you're also using it, I think he used it as a bludgeon as well,

where he could flip it over and use the end of the knife. And that's going to involve his fist. And even if he's gloved, you're still going to get these little injuries like that through the glove, even through a latex glove, because there's an abrad area. There's a friction that occurs when you strike something. And that would potentially line out. Let me throw this to Josh Colesrude.

Josh Colesrude is joining us. a criminal defense attorney, former U.S. attorney, founder of Colesruid Law Offices, what do you do when your client, after the murders? And we know he committed the murders because he's pled guilty. There's not, there's no doubt left. And he has an apparent, it looks like black clingy tights pull down. I would say almost to his pubic hair, dare I even think of that. Okay, yeah, thank you. With a cut to his finger, and this is what he's doing, you know those would come into evidence. How disgusted do you believe the jurors would be if they had seen that? This is just part of the evidence the prosecution hid from the victim's families

before he entered that deal behind their backs. What about it, Coles Rood? Well, first off, I think we can all agree that Mr. Coburger is a cold-blooded killer. However, as a former prosecutor, looking at these selfies, you know, a selfie is not a smoking gun. In 2025, everybody takes them. If a selfie equal vanity, then half of America would be guilty. Okay, wait a minute, but put him up. Put him up. Well, where do you think you are? Do you think you're in pre-K right now? Are you in nursery school? Look around. You can't just say something like that and not expect to get called on the carpet. Do you take shirtless selfies?

I'm just curious, Josh. Do you stand in front of the mirror with your pants pull down to your crotch and buff all up and take a key? Do you? I'd like to know. If I was in college and I had an iPhone, which I didn't when I was in college. But if I did, I'm sure that I would have, as would all of my friends and all of my girls. So then that's a no? Is that a no?

You don't. Because Jackie doesn't. I don't. You take shirtless selfies where you're all like clenched up. You know, I wouldn't say that it would be unusual to do that. You know, sometimes you want to be able to the crack of how you look when you're working out to be like, all right, I want to take a picture of how I look now and compare it to myself a couple months from now to see if I have any improvement. So I think that there are advantages to taking selfies. Okay, you know, just cut the crap.

Okay, you don't. You don't. McDonough, help him. Chris McDonough joining me, Director of Cold Case Foundation Homicide Detective, who has scoured this crime scene. He started the interview room on YouTube. Please.

The point is not a shirtless selfie. The point is he's doing this right after the murders, right around the time of the murders. That's where his head is. Those four students lost their lives as part of his vanity project. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just look at the salute. The salute is a Cub Scout salute.

I mean, he's got two fingers put together with the injury on his hand. And it just goes to show, you know, how empty this guy is. There's nothing there. I mean, these pictures look like they just came out of the movie Zoolander. I mean, he has been projecting this persona for soul. long and now the crime is finished and now he's trying to gain you know power as a result of look what I have done and these are disgusting but it goes in in concert with the type of personality he is Coles Rude I would like to hear although you will neither admit or deny your own

shirtless selfies that said how would you get that suppress because you do not want the jury to say that? I would argue that it is unfairly prejudicial pursuant to Rule 403 Rules of Evidence. It doesn't show that he has motive. It doesn't show that it's a confession. It's not even sent to any person. It is solely for himself. It was found on his phone subsequent to when or after he was arrested. And if I'm the prosecutor and the case. The only way that I can think I could get this in would be to show injury like you showed on his knuckles. But the fact that he's shirtless or portrays Christian Bale and American Psycho, unless there's some writings that he has where he says, I want to be like American Psycho. And then

you can juxtapose that picture, maybe. But it's going to be a tough sell to the judge. And I think that would be precluded. Hold on. Judge Coltrue, do you want a lot. of cases, but let me remind you that evidence can come in front of the jury to show motive, course of conduct, frame of mind, intent, the mental state at the time of the incident. These selfies will come in for that. And as far as did he write about American Psycho, he had a cash, a treasure trove of American Psycho videos, and photos. So he didn't have to write about it. He was looking at him and doing the Lord only knows what as he was looking at them. And also the timing of these photos is very important. Just

before and after the murders goes to whether the murders were sexually motivated. We also know, don't we? Don't we, Susan Hendricks, that found on his phone were many, many searches of raping women, having sex with women, when they were comatose. That was one of his sex fantasies. That's what he expected to find the night he went into 1122 King Road. But that's not what he found. And they all died. So all of this fits together with a sex-related motive, doesn't it?

Well, 100% Nancy. And as we were talking about it, 2022, think about that house on King Road, how much fun they They posted on social media. Selfies. I believe that Brian Coburger not only stalked the students that he killed, I believe he was stalking others. And I believe he stalked them online, too. So now is he mimicking them? Now I could take selfies.

I believe he was jealous of their friendships. And I believe that's what he was doing there, Washington State, planning this murder. Are you on location of your emergency? Hi, something is happening. Something happens in our health. We don't know what. What is the Padra? of the emergency?

One way to help you. What is the rest of the address? Oh, Kings Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right? I'll talk to you guys.

We live at the lights so we're next to them. I need someone to repeat the address for verification. The address, 112.2. King Road. Crime Stores with Nancy Grace. It's a social awkward news. He doesn't know how to relate to other people. He's alienated himself. Nobody wants to be around the guy, let alone give them their telephone number and address

to be added as a contact to his phone. Because I don't think he feels much at all. All the bloody clothes, the bloody evidence is all gone. And there he is. Thumbs up, guys. I did it. This is his dissertation. This is what he was preparing for the whole time.

This is why he was able to pull it off. This guy, Kyneberger, left a trail a mile wide. And the prosecution hid all of these facts from the victim's families and the public. and then took a deal, informing them about the plea deal after it had already been accepted. And isn't it true, Josh Coles wrote, veteran trial lawyer, that once a plea deal is offered and accepted, there's no going back. Yes, once a plea is accepted, it is ironclad, almost no appealable rights except for under three circumstances. A ineffective assistance of counsel is one, number two, prosecutorial misconduct, or number three, a manifest injustice.

Now, what we are learning, Susan Hendricks, joining us, investigative journalist who has been there on the same from the get-go. He is writing and writing and writing. And I'm going to quote some of his writings that we've uncovered in thousands of pages that were taken from his Washington State apartment. The confessed killer writes at length about how procedural injustice in the American system has produced many false confessions. Quote, false guilty pleas manifest due to a lack of judicial oversight, blaming the judge, and plea deals that seem to compel the defendant to

enter them, force the defendant to plead guilty under oath. If defendants fail to accept a plea bargain, he writes, prosecutors will seek the strictest charges. Some people plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit as to choose the lesser of two evils. So we've got him blaming the judge, the system. Now he says, quote, eyewitness misidentification is an issue. And therefore, we need increasing video surveillance, which is interesting since he picked a home that had no surveillance cameras. He goes on Susan Hendricks to blame prosecutorial misconduct. He describes unethical behavior where people play guilty when they shouldn't have. Another seven-page single-space paper we discovered refers to a gruesome, stabbing murder case. His words, not mine,

Pulled around the victim and was spattered on the walls and television near the victim's body. He describes how the victim was found. The grisly details. He goes on and on and on. Okay. Explain to me, Susan Hendricks. This plot revealing Coburgers alleged plans to walk free. to get out of the plea deal. Absolutely. And I believe, after reading that, that he had planned this every single day, even the plea he planned.

I believe this was all that he thought about, all that he did. And Nancy, I listened to your heartfelt conversation with Kelly's parents. The laughable part here is, they might have a case against the prosecutor, not Brian Cobor. Cobur, it's not going to work here.

That they were, if anything, nice to him. I remember hearing the judge say, oh, you don't have to stand up. This was during the plea deal, and it infuriated Steve Gonzalez. So here he doesn't have a case, but I think he was ready for it. He was using his students to get in their minds and think of covering everything. But they did know what color car he was driving, and he did leave DNA there. So it didn't work out in his favor.

But the prosecution, a case against them, not going to work here. You know, writing about procedural injustice, and this has been uncovered now out of thousands of pages of documents that he kept meticulously. He is essentially hatching a plot to get his plea, his guilty plea, reversed. He refers to lack of judicial oversight, blaming a judge for taking a plea that was a misguided plea. This is a real dig. To Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter, a real dig.

a real dig at the judge claiming prosecutorial misconduct would be overlooked by the judge and what about Dave Matt claiming false guilty pleas where people are between a rock and a hard spot if they don't plead guilty in his case to life then they'll get the death penalty

so therefore what he pled to something he didn't do that's what he's saying. That's exactly what he's saying he's laying this out there ahead of time as to why he would plead guilty. I didn't have a choice. I had to because they told me if I didn't do this, this was going to happen. But Nancy, you pointed out something during the hearing where the judge was actually asking very specific questions. And for those of us who are not attorneys, we didn't quite understand why the judge was going so far with his Q&A here.

And the whole point was the judge was making sure of everything that comes. Coburger was claiming would stick up. So he couldn't come back later and try to pull this. It was a magnificent job by the judge in that moment, but he was obviously planning. He was going the long game here, Nancy, from the very beginning. You know, another thing, guys, you were seeing the victims that lost their lives that early, early morning in the wee hours of the morning when Coburger entered their homes stealthily,

expecting to find women asleep, we believe that he could rape. And instead he found them up and alive ordering DoorDash, eating, texting, and it was literally a bloodbath. Chris McDonough joining us, veteran homicide detective and star of the interview room. Chris, this is what I would always do. And I mean for every single guilty plea I ever took. I'd swear the defendant in under oath on the Bible and make them. state, I would ask questions to which they would respond. And one of them, after I swore them in, was, are you entering a guilty plea today to, let's just pretend murder? Yes. And have you been

promised anything or threatened with anything in order for you to plead guilty today? And they would go, no. And then I would say, are you pleading guilty of your own free will? without any hope of gain. Has anybody threatened you, coerced you to plead guilty today? And then they would answer no. So then they're under oath. I did not hear that happen during this guilty plea, Chris. I mean, if this didn't happen, I mean, everybody in the county jail would walk free because they would say, oh, I was afraid I would get a worse sentence if I went to trial.

I really didn't do it. It's total BS. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And I recall you, you know, saying exactly that when he didn't tell the story. And the court let him, you know, just basically, you know, go to jail, go to prison. But here's a really other interesting thought to dovetail into what you're saying here. If we go back to those pictures just for a minute, just to think about the duality of this guy's personality. And look at the one where he's at the lake, where he's in the shirt. And you look at the mountain rain. behind him you know that you know what that mountain range is that's Mount Renier okay and he who's famous that one right there who's famous for that area Ted Bundy and if we take a look at his phone and the obsession that he had with serial killing and there's another one here where there's a rock behind him in one side he's studying right there that one look at the right

rock it says sluts this guy hates women. So in one part of his personality, he's projecting in his public persona, hey, I'm going to try to get out of this. And the second real part in his hidden personality is I'm going to kill women. You know what? Chris McDonough, you just put chills down my spine to think this guy walking around amongst all those beautiful young coeds. I mean, it was just hunting. They were his prey. Now, these writings found in one of his essays show he knows how to go about getting a guilty plea overturned. He does.

He's researched it. He's written about it. And believe you, me, Josh Coles Rood, former assistant U.S. attorney, now criminal defense attorney, Josh, you can blood, sweat, and tears. you can give it all to your client. But then when they're behind bars, you go on about your life, you go to your next client, and they're sitting there, gnashing their teeth and twisting their tail. All they have to think about behind bars is, how am I going to get out of here?

How am I going to get that plea reversed? That is what he is doing right now. And it doesn't matter how hard you worked or what a great job you did. You will go right down the crapper. You will, the attorney, will be sacrificed with an ineffective assistance of counsel. And I heard Chris McDonough state, the judge let this plea happen. Well, yes, he did, but you know, you can't really stop a blind plea. But it was the prosecutor's duty to ask those questions and make sure they were asked,

put the defendant under oath, and make sure he was pleading by his own volition, not out of fear, threat, or coercion. But isn't it true? clients, no matter what you do for them, they will claim ineffective assistance of counsel to get out of jail. That's all he's thinking about right now, Cole's Root. That's absolutely correct. The most common appeal from a plea agreement is the IAC, the ineffective assistance of counsel claim. And what he has to show is that his lawyer missed something that was very obvious. It was a standard deviation from what was expected.

And here, I think he's going to have some difficulty because his attorney did a great job of getting him out of the death penalty. You know, that was the attorney's main motivation at the time. Also, Mr. Coburger, under oath, admitted to the crime itself. So I think that his angle right here is going to be prosecutorial misconduct. He's going to say that the prosecutor hid evidence, that the prosecutor used controversial DNA technology, IgG technology that was illegal. And I think that's going to be where his angle is going to be in this case. The plea deal, the infamous plea deal taken by the prosecutor, after so much evidence,

so many facts were hidden from the families, Koeberger, as well. we go to air tonight, plotting, scheming, planning a way to get that plea reversed. What were they hiding? Just telling us our child was stabbed. Brutely. How many times? How many times? We just learned the day of the, or the day before the sentencing, how many times Kaylee had been stabbed.

Wait a minute. I am stunned because she was stabbed so many times. They could not identify her. And you just learned about that when the plea was set to go down? We learned about it after the plea the day before the sentencing. Guy should have been punched in the face. He was a creep and he's an disgusting creep. He is a creep state away from him.

Anti-woman misogynist stalking behavior. Thirteen complaints where he would intimidate for stalk female students. And so much more tonight. Are there more victims emerging? If we're hearing about these victims, how many other victims are out there? And what is the severity of what happened to them? Joining me in All Star Palin makes sense of what we are learning. Two women tell police they suspect Koberger was stalking them while he was at Washington

State University. Straight out to Susan Hendricks, these women state that. They spotted Coburger at their employment over and over and over to the point. Other co-workers would warn them, he's here, he's here. Then one of them goes home. She is semi-nude, changing clothes, and someone comes to her window and either taps on the window or hits the window, and she realizes someone's watching her. And I'm going to go to you in just a second, Chris McDonough.

that's Chris McDonough and I have looked at the scene over and over. And that's exactly what Coburger was doing here. And he had a great vantage point to stare into the girls' bedroom windows. But not only that, one of them has a husband. And during one of these stalking episodes, the husband comes home and sees a white car speeding away similar to Brian Coburger's. So we know there are other victims. Tell me about these two. Yeah, there is a clear pattern here.

One of the students worked at the university. bookstore. He went in. She never gave him her name and he called her by name. He was obviously looking into who she was and would just stare at her. Another one worked in the criminology department and she said she caught eye contact with him out of her window, which means he was staring directly in. She ran and hid in the bathroom. She even went to Brian Coburger and said, I'm a lesbian. There's nothing that's going to happen here. Didn't deter him. This was happening over and over again. and I believe he was looking for someone to murder, and he found that sadly on King Road. But I remember Steve Gonzalez telling you, Nancy, that there were red flags everywhere with this guy,

13 incidents that they knew of. And the school, Washington State, did nothing. Could you retell very slowly the encounter where the woman, the victim, saw him looking at her through the window, and she ran and hid in the bathroom? Yeah, she was in the classroom, and she could feel, you know, when you feel someone kind of staring at you and looked at him, made eye contact looking out the window. And she said the only way that that would occur is if he was looking directly where she was, I believe she was the target here. Then she sees him come in the building and she

runs and hides in the bathroom. That's how threatening she thought he was that she had to hide. There are people maybe you don't want to see it work. And he said, oh, you don't run and hide in the bathroom and you mentioned the husband there were footprints up to that window and she said it was clear or her husband said it was clear that he kind of backed away because there was only one set of footprints and one of the women said this nancy it's so pressing that nothing seemed to deter him he wasn't bothered by rejection crime stories with nancy grace Schwartz joining us, forensic psychologist, author of where law and psychology intersect. Dr. Sherry, I've had so many cases. This is anecdotal. I don't have a statistic where it would be

a, I'd be prosecuting, a rape or a murder, maybe a serial rape. And I would look back in the suspect's history, way back, way back, I would find peeping Tom. And it happened. so often that I started talking to people in the office, you know, the few people that I confided in there, have you noticed that so many of these murder perps and or rape perps have been peeping Tom's? It's just the beginning. That's one thing I want to throw at you, but first, I want to explore what Susan Hendricks just said.

Gosh, this is reminding me so much of trying cases because before I would put, say, you on the stand, I would meet with you ad nauseum. to figure out what it all meant, when someone, a grown lady, young in her 20s, but still a grown lady, runs and hides, this woman is not fanciful. She's got a job, she's going to school, she's running a household. She ran and hid from Coburgers. She ran in the bathroom, shut the door, and locked it. That's an instinct. That's why we are alive. today? Because we have instincts and we act on them. Why did this young lady see Coburger and run and hide in the bathroom? Well, she either had prior interactions with him or saw him around

or something about that particular interaction, which is completely nonverbal. Something told her, her instinct, her fight or flight response said, flee, get out, go hide. This is is somebody who has the potential to cause you danger. And these are things that shouldn't be underestimated when people have reactions like that. And of course, Josh Coles Rood, your veteran trial lawyer, this incident may or may not have come in at trial as a similar transaction. But it speaks to me. It means something to me that this woman, other women, were so instinctively afraid of Coburger, they would hide.

Just wait till I tell you about what a mother hen did in the criminal procedure department at WSU. Just wait. You're going to freak. But that means something, but it would never have come into evidence, would it? In a nutshell, Coles Rude. Well, Ann, you're absolutely right, Nancy. In violent cases, judges do

allow sometimes, some type of character evidence. And what this could show is a pattern or pattern evidence that could go towards motive later on, that this defendant was learning how to be a predator. He was learning how to case female victims, how to hide his tracks, how to target certain female victims. However, the evidence has to, cannot be unfairly prejudicial, which is what the argument would be in this case. A Washington State University faculty member says her maternal instinct took over when she wouldn't allow a female student to be left alone in an office on campus with Coburger. She keeps herself busy until he left and says it wasn't anything specific

about his behavior that prompted a response. It was just a feeling she had at the time. After Coburg left, she told the student to email her with the subject line 9-1-1 if she ever needed help. Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics Jackson State University. A faculty member was so concerned about Coburger stalking this particular. Look at this. All of these are other instances of him scaring women. But this one, a faculty member, was so concerned that she told the girl, just text me 911 if he comes back.

Look, that is grounded in something. All of these women are not hysterical. And you remember that other home invasion, they have not yet attributed to Coburger, which leads me to, this is not a quantum leap of faith. What else is out there? What else is out there?

Nancy, I'm in my 21st year of academia this year. And let me tell you something. When you're in an environment in an academic environment, you have freshmen that are coming in, returning sophomores, juniors, and certainly those that are about to graduate. They are the most vulnerable when it comes to a faculty member. And look, I know he was a TA, but he's been given charge over these individuals, over these students, to instruct them. Nancy, I submit to you that this whole game about the Ph.D. thing, this is a means to an end. he saw this as shooting fish in a barrel because he knew that he would have instantaneous access

to some of the most vulnerable people, those that want a degree, those that want to be successful in university, he could do and say anything to them because he perceived himself as having power. And it's a terrible situation to send your kids to the university and have a monster like this in this environment. And let me tell you one more thing if you like that one. I think that WSU got hoodwinked into hiring this guy. That's what I really think. I don't think they did a deep dive on his background at all. And you think about the position that this university put these kids in because they gave him charge over these kids. Hadn't it ever struck you as odd that he didn't get along with his supervisors? You know why? Because his purpose was not to be

there as an academic. His purpose was to be there as a predator, Nancy. You know, following up on that, Chris McDonough, joining me, former homicide detective, I don't know if you or if anybody on the panel ever had this experience, but over and over and over and over, I would see

cases that had morphed, had graduated into rape, serial rape, and or murder. Where it all started with a freak peeping Tom. He would be a peeping Tom, and it would be dismissed. Peeping Tom, pay $25. Peeping Tom, order violation citation and it would go suddenly it would be more and more serious until it

culminated and landed as an indictment on my desk to prosecute have you ever noticed that starting with peeping tom yeah absolutely that that voyeurism in of itself is the fuel uh that helps fan the fantasy and remember nancy when we were there and if you look at this I mean, this picture right here tells us everything we need to know. The intensity of this particular picture, this is the intensity that he is operating with while voyeurism. And if we think about the fuel that he is now operating on, it's all of that intense, non-consensual pornography. And think about that, him sitting in the backyard of those four kids' house and has a fishbowl type of, view. And that's why I have always been fascinated by that one cylinder block underneath the

window of the back bedroom at that house. I saw him in my mind through my experience just sitting there and just waiting for those kids to fall asleep. And then his fantasy starts to play out because that's what was driving him. And you're right, Chris McDonough, he wanted sleeping slash comatose women to rape based on his own computer searches. All of this kept away from the victim's family, this and more. Tonight, Coburg are behind bars plotting his jailhouse exit legally. Listen to what Steve and Christy Gonsolvis say about this plea deal. For me, it was outrage because my daughter was fighting up to her very last breath over and over she kept trying to get out of that bed and he was just drilling her and she's fighting for her last breath and

I got this old Santa Claus who's just thrown out a white towel just saying oh let's just make it all go away. Nancy Gray signing off. Goodbye friend. This is an I-Heart podcast.