Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Las Vegas massacre update & OJ Simpson freed from prison

Episode Date: October 2, 2017

A 64-year-old man opened fire from a Las Vegas hotel's 32nd floor on thousands of country music fans gathered for a concert Sunday night, killing more than 50 and wounded 500 others. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories contributing reporter Cheryl White, RadarOnline reporter Alexis Tereszcuk and Los Angeles lawyer Troy Slaten discuss the latest Grace and guests, also including DailyMail.com's Sean Walsh, Calif. prosecutor Wendy Patrick and psychologist Caryn Stark, then turn to the weekend release of O.J. Simpson from a Nevada prison.   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. February 2004, Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series. The Disappearance of Maura Murray, Saturdays, 7, 6 Central and 9, 8 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. The former football star is sitting right now in a state prison for robbery in Las Vegas.

I am sorry. I didn't mean to steal anything from anybody. And I didn't know I was doing anything illegal. Conspiracy to commit a crime, guilty. Count two, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, guilty. Count three, conspiracy to commit robbery, guilty. Nine years away from your family is just not worth it, and I'm sorry. Mr. Simpson, I do vote to grant parole. How does it feel to be out? Y'all stalking me.

Nothing has changed in my life. What do you guys, I mean, what do you expect? I mean, there's nothing changed. Please, can I have a break here? All right. Thank you. In the last hours, Orenthal James Simpson has walked free. Yes, he is out and about, already stopped at a gas station complaining he's been in the car too long.

He doesn't like it. Okay, you know what? I don't know what to say about that. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Before we head out to the latest in OJ Simpson walking free, we head to Vegas in the biggest shooting in U.S. history. 50 people dead that we know of, 200 injured as a gunman with a horrific arsenal of weapons opens fire on a jam-packed Las Vegas

music festival. He's up on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel. He and his companion in the luxury suite did he specifically ask for a particular hotel room facing a particular way in order to slaughter Americans at this country music concert? Joining me right now, investigative reporter Cheryl White. Also with me, Alexis Torres, ChuckRadarOnline.com and high-profile lawyer out of the L.A. area, Troy Slayton. Cheryl, what happened?

Just after 10 o'clock last night, Las Vegas time, those shots rang out. And at that time, Nancy, nobody knew. They thought it was fireworks, even though no fireworks were slated for the festival. But that's what they thought until people started falling. It was horrific, Nancy. I know you've seen some of the video that was shot. It's horrible, and it is the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, even worse than last year's massacre at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. That was horrible. I remember speaking with the victims trapped in that nightclub that couldn't get out.

This shooting in Vegas is even worse. And the guy's name is Steven Paddock, 64-year-old white male who opens fire from a 32nd floor luxury suite in the Mandalay Bay Hotel. It all goes down Sunday night at 10 p.m. Now, interesting, another person with him, his so-called companion, Mary Lou Danley, described only as his companion and roommate. She's being questioned right now. I don't know how in the world, with an arsenal of guns like that in the room with you, you can claim you don't know what was going on. But I do know this. This day will be forever marked because America is reeling from the worst mass shooting in its history.

At least 50 people dead. At least. 200 wounded at the Country Music Festival in Vegas. It all broke out on the final night of a three-day, it was called Route 91 Harvest Festival. It was sold out, attended by thousands, and there were top country music acts there like Eric Church, Sam Hunt, Jason Aldean. Now, this shooter, 64-year-old Steven Paddock, is a local. He's a resident of nearby Mesquite, Nevada. He's the one that opens fire on the festival.

Back to Cheryl White. Also with me, Troy Slayton and Alexis Tereszczuk. Cheryl, this guy is a local, so he knew very well about the festival. I don't understand how the female companion could not know what was going on. How could she not know what was happening, Cheryl? I can't really answer that question, but it seems highly unlikely she would not know something was going to happen. What I find is interesting here is that at this point, we see that Stephen Paddock, the shooter, had no to get all those weapons in. Did anyone see them carrying these large cases up there?

Were they just there for one night, which I believe is the case? There's so many questions here. Even the on-duty Vegas police officers who engaged with the shooter are in the hospital. One critically injured. He's undergoing surgery. The other officer just suffered minor injuries. To Troy Slayton. We know he was using an automatic weapon, but he had an arsenal of weapons with them.

I don't think there's any way, though, that the Mandalay could have known what was in all the bags. I don't think they could possibly have had any idea. And even if they did, actually, we don't even have to go there because they didn't know. I think the guy had just checked in. But Troy, I'm very curious about this female companion. Nancy, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police detectives are reporting right now that they don't believe that she had any connection with the shooting. They're not saying that she didn't know about his weapons or that she didn't know his mental state, whatever that was, or what his system of thinking was to carry off something horrific like this. But as far as Mandalay Bay, they don't check everyone's back. There's no x-rays to check into a hotel. There's no way that they could have known when somebody's carrying in suitcases. And I'm sure, Troy,

that you're right. I mean, he didn't carry them in, you know, slinging them in his hands. He had them hidden. Now, we're also hearing that this woman, this so-called companion, was not in the room when the shooting went down. I don't know that. Alexis Tereska, RadarOnline.com. What more do we know before we head to OJ? I was actually watching this unfold live last night. I was up late. It sounded like gunshots. It really did. When you listen to the video that people were posting when they were screaming, Jason Aldean was playing this wonderful country music entertainer. It was the last show of the night. So his song is going, and then all of a sudden you hear these popping sounds, and it was constant.

It wasn't one shot, take a break, two shots. It was constant, constant, constant, constant. It was absolutely terrifying for these people. And there were people saying that I saw a woman that was speaking afterwards, and she said she was with her friends, and their friend's 18-year-old daughter was shot, and she fell around 18 years old. And they were so scared for her, and there was so much going on, that they put her in the car themselves and drove her to the hospital. These are young people that were victims of this horrible shooting.

50 dead, 200 wounded. The count is rising in the worst shooting, a massacre in U.S. history as we wait for justice to unfold. And now we head to the latest in the release of O.J. Simpson. Take a listen to this. Hey, man, look, I've been in nowhere, Cali. I've been in nowhere, USAi. I've been in nowhere, USA, for the last nine years doing nothing. Nothing has changed in my life. What do you guys, I mean, what do you expect? I mean, there's nothing changed. Please, all right, can I have a break here?

All right. Thank you. There you hear OJ Simpson saying nothing has changed. Well, I'm pretty sure Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman's family would disagree because the man that murdered Nicole and Ron is now walking free. I also understand, Alexis Terrestrike, RadarOnline.com, that Simpson pounded two number four combos for nevada mcdonald's that was his first free meal on the outside uh during his road to sin city so he headed where's he headed vegas he is yep he's got it he's staying in vegas right now because nobody wants him florida won't take him nobody wants to take him him in California. And so he's stuck in Vegas till he can find somebody who will open up their home for him. And pretty much nobody wants OJ. So

he's got to stay in Vegas. But he's out of jail and he's complaining because that is OJ. He is the most self-centered person that has ever walked this earth. And he's not grateful for anything. He's not thankful to be out he's not going to you know search for the real killers of his wife the mother of his two children nope he's just going to complain so long story short uh paparazzi quote stumbled upon prisoner number 1027820 you know alexis that was totally set up. That was completely set up. A hundred percent. I mean, the paparazzi, they're not that good.

They're not going to be able to do that. At a gas station in the middle of nowhere? And O.J. rolled down the window, like, just all of a sudden to talk to somebody with a camera? No. O.J. sets things up. He did it when he got out of jail after getting acquitted for the murders of Ron and Nicole. This is totally OJ. And this is how he's going to conduct his life now that he's out. You know, Troy Slayton, high-profile lawyer joining me out of L.A. Troy, the issue of Florida rejecting him.

Now, the attorney general there has written a letter that they don't want him. But can she really do that? Is it allowed for her to kick somebody out, to disallow them? Because there's all sorts of interstate commerce and allows parolees to move from state to state and supervision to be redirected to those states. So if Florida tries to not allow him to come, that's going to expose them to a lawsuit. But some silver lining to all of this is that now the Goldman and Brown families are going to be able to start hopefully collecting on the now $70 million that they're entitled to, originally $35 million, but now with interest, it's ballooned to $70 million that O.J. owes them. And so any money that he receives will start to be attacked by those civil attorneys. Asked about his destination, he answers, none of your business.

Okay. All right. What controls are on him, Alexis Torres-Chuck? I mean, are there any conditions upon his release? Yes. He has to stay away from all drugs, including if he moves to a state where marijuana is legal, he's not allowed to do it. So if he comes back to California where marijuana is legal, O.J. Simpson, not allowed to smoke pot. He's not allowed to touch any drugs. He's not allowed to have alcohol.

And his parole officer can have him drug tested at any time, any time at all that he wants to. I thought he could be under.08. Is that not correct? I understood it was no alcohol at all, but you may be right. You may be right. Troy Slayton questioned on these issues. We now know that also, although Florida doesn't seem to want him, I don't know how they can really stop him from going there. But what about the Goldman lawyer who says he's ready for round two of trying to collect from O.J. Simpson? What about that? This is their opportunity. A lot of his assets are protected if he's a resident of florida

florida has some of the strongest protections against lawsuits uh his pretty hefty nfl pension is protected from lawsuits and so these lawyers will have to attack any new money that would come in from, let's say, a book about what it was like to be in prison for the last eight years, any type of screenplay or movie rights, or if he's paid for any type of media. All of that is subject to attack from the civil lawyers. Now, what I'm learning about the booze is this, and this, to me, is adding fuel to the flame, Alexis, because we know that he has beaten his wife horribly. You could hear her screaming in the background as he was trying to tear the door down to

beat her. The conditions that I'm reading from it, they were a little confusing, Alexis. I see what you were saying. He can consume alcohol but not to excess. He's got to stay under.08, and he will be tested for it. His blood alcohol will be tested. I'm curious about whether he can get medical marijuana for all his aches and pains. You know, I'm also thinking about the families of Ron and Nicole. This guy, this lawyer, David Cook, has been chasing O.J. Simpson for collections for so long

he claims it's his most challenging debtor. But now that he's been released for prison, they're going after him again. We're also learning about alleged offshore accounts where he's been hiding his millions. But for right now, where's he going to hole up? Where can he possibly hole up, Troy Slayton, until we find out if he can go to Florida or not? It's my understanding that he has some friends

in a luxury guard-gated community in Las Vegas that have agreed to have him be, like Cato Kaelin, a house guest. Everybody still wants to be his buddy and glom on to his infamy. You know, Florida Corrections Department has just said in the last 24 hours it hasn't even received a request to oversee his parole. That may be all a big fat lie to throw everybody off. Quote, the department has not received any transfer paperwork from Nevada. And that's according to Ashley Cook, who's the corrections department's spokesperson. Now, what does that mean?

We also know Alexis Torres Chucky got preferential treatment yet again. He was released in the dead of night, got preferential treatment yet again. He was released in the dead of night, in the middle of the night, so the press could not hound him. Sweet, right? I mean, O.J., always treated like a star. The same way people in his presence are just brainwashed by him. I don't know what the word is. He was, during that parole hearing, the parole board, those three professionals who have done their job so well for so many years were laughing with OJ Simpson. He was cutting jokes during the hearing. And his story,

the only one man on the parole board said, you know, OJ, your story that you're telling now does not match with the evidence with which you were convicted? Like, nothing is reality for OJ. It's all a joke. It just made me sick. Troy Slayton, I know where you stand, that you agreed he got let out on time, the right time, in Vegas, in Nevada. But I just thought their whole demeanor was awful. Alexis is right, joking and laughing with him during the hearing.

But how did he give everybody the slip, getting out of a Nevada prison, unseen in the dead of night? And this is after the last Ford Bronco-style chase. Do you think that had anything to do with it, Troy Slayton? It wasn't his choice, Nancy. This was for the convenience of Nevada corrections officials. They didn't want exactly what you're saying. They didn't want another Bronco scene.

They didn't want the disruption at their facility. This was more for their convenience than it was to protect OJ Simpson. Well, the OJ Simpson saga goes on, but I'm pausing to thank our partner. It's LegalZoom. When you run your own business, you know time equals money. That's not just an old saying, it's true. So why waste your valuable time dealing with issues LegalZoom can help with? You may already know over 2 million people have used LegalZoom to start their businesses. But LegalZoom services don't end there. Running a business comes with taxes, contracts, hiring employees, basically a lot of fine print. And that is why LegalZoom

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N-A-N-C-Y, in the referral box at checkout for special savings only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. Now taking center stage is one of the robbery victims claiming he's, quote, forgiven O.J. Simpson for the 2007 Vegas armed robbery. As you know, Simpson was granted parole after serving just nine years of a, let's see, 20, 30-year sentence. Framon had been his friend for almost 27 years. I want you to listen to the very latest that has been uncovered by Daily Mail TV, DailyMail.com, about this witness.

Okay, go ahead, brace yourself. This is Bruce Fram on caught on audio tape. You know how I had your business? I told you we shouldn't have brought this s*** out. I told you. Come in place. Threatening words from an angry Bruce from on feeling set up after that infamous Las Vegas robbery. A stark contrast to earlier this year when fromremont testified for O.J. at his parole hearing.

He made a mistake. And if he called me tomorrow and said, Bruce, I'm getting out, will you pick me up? Juice, I'll be here tomorrow. And I'm here to say that I've known O.J. for a long time. I don't feel that he's a threat to anyone out there. He's a good man. But that's not how Fremont felt a decade ago. Listen to more of this bombshell recording

captured just minutes after OJ and his crew held Fremont up at gunpoint. I don't give a. Nobody puts a gun in my face. I stood up for that mother and while he's in jail, I stood up for him in the press. Offshore accounts. Not so fast, OJ Simpson. Because I'm telling you right now,

Sean Walsh from Daily Mail TV, DailyMail.com. If you are trying to subvert justice, the one person you do not want to mess with is the tax man. You ever heard, I mean, I know you're an Aussie, but you have to have heard of Al Capone, the famous mobster, murderer, racketeer, God knows what else. You know who sent him to jail? The tax man. Nobody else could get a conviction on Al Capone, but the IRS nailed him. They don't play. That's what I'm saying, Sean Walsh.

Now, what does the Bruce from Amongst Sound that you guys uncovered reveal, Sean Walsh. Now, what does the Bruce Vermong sound that you guys uncovered reveal, Sean? It reveals Bruce was a very, very, very angry man when he stepped out of that room when the robbery occurred. He's cursing, as you heard. He's swearing. He's saying, with everything I've done for OJ, I don't want a damn gun put in my face. Who does he think he is? I stood by him when he was on the stand. I set up offshore accounts. And you know what? There will be two sets of people that will be interested in that. One, the tax man. Two, the Goldman. Oh, man. You're not kidding. Explain what you mean by that. Ron goldman's parents his dad fred goldman has been an tireless advocate he has hounded oj simpson hey wendy patrick california prosecutor karen stark renowned psychologist

joining me out of new york you know what happens right so simpson has been a signing fool behind bars signing pictures memorabilia reportedly and then sells it and makes a mint in cash. Before he went to jail on the armed robbery in Vegas, he would go to these memorabilia events and sign and take all the money in cash. Before Goldman could find out and get a sheriff there, Simpson would be gone with the money. So he's been making money hand over fist, signing football, signing jerseys, signing pictures, anything. And Goldman can't get his hands on Simpson's money.

And Karen Stark, it's not about the money anymore for Fred Goldman, if it ever was. He's trying very hard to find a way to get some kind of affirmation that his son was killed by this man. And if he could get the money, it's just symbolic, Nancy, of you murdered my son. They found you guilty. I deserve to have something that, you know, will replace what happened. That shows. To some sort, some degree of justice. With me, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Wendy, why can't Goldman get any of Simpson's money? He's making a huge NFL football retirement pension. Boy, isn't that the truth?

And that, I think, really angers many Americans that are watching this. And it's not even so much about the money. It's about the principle that that $25,000 Simpson gets from his pension can't be touched. Now, Nancy, I predict that when he is released, Simpson will go from a signing fool to a filming fool if he, in fact, is approached, as we all know he's going to be, from media outlets that want to sell his story. And, you know, if history predicts future behavior, he's not going to be able to resist that offer. And then the question becomes how much of that money, I mean, we could argue why not all of it, goes to the sentence. He's not made even a dent barely in that $33 million judgment. And so anything he makes above board, and it's going to be obvious if he's going to be making

this through the media, should go to at least partially achieve some measure of justice for that family. Let's analyze, Sean Walsh, exactly what you guys uncovered on Daily Mail that Bruce Framong said. Remember, a friend of 27 years to OJ Simpson that testified in his favor at the parole board and was his armed robbery victim as well. All right, let's analyze what he says. This is what we call in the law an excited utterance. To me, that gives it more weight. When you're like, holy crap, and you're like angry or you're afraid, you're not filtering what you're saying. He did not know he was being audiotaped. How was he audiotaped, Sean?

He was audiotaped by someone else that was there. And these tapes have been verified by the FBI. And he is highly emotional. He's agitated. He's just been in a situation where a gun's been pointed in his face. So that would make most people behave the same way he's behaving on these tapes. And that's where, bit by bit, he starts revealing what OJ's been up to. And, I mean, this is something that you can't come back from. Now, Daily Mail went to him and asked for comment all these years later, and he said

no comment. He didn't want to comment on the offshore accounts or anything like that. And if you recall at the parole board hearing, I've got nothing but good things to say to OJ. Let the past be the past. Bygones be bygones, he almost sang Kumbaya, it was extraordinary. So it'll be interesting to see what relationship he has with Simpson when Simpson's on the outside. Take a listen to Bruce Ramong at the parole hearing. He made a mistake. And if he called me tomorrow and said, Bruce, I'm getting out, will you pick me up? Juice, I'll be here tomorrow. And I'm here to say that I've known O.J. for a long time.

I don't feel that he's a threat to anyone out there. He's a good man. Okay, now let's compare it. I just can't listen to this enough. Listen to Fremont again after he's had a gun shoved up his nostril. One more time, Alan Duke. Nobody puts a gun on my f***ing face. I stood up for that love s*** while he was in jail. I stood up for him in the press.

I stood up for him on the stand. I helped him set up his f***ing offshore accounts. Don't f*** with me. Now, I'm telling you something. To Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, that's one tiger. You don't want to pull that tail because once you got the tiger by the tail, you can't hold on and you can't let go. No way it's going to turn out good. And that is the IRS. You know what? It pains me to pay my taxes. It does. I would love to use that money on the twins, blah, blah, blah.

You know how long I've been driving my minivan? I don't even know anymore. It was way, way long time ago. But the tax man comes first, all right? You do not mess with him. And there's a reason for that, Wendy. Yeah, you know, there are so many reasons, Nancy, that OJ is no doubt going to find himself again behind bars. That's the prediction, right? He's in Las Vegas, so let's bet on it. It's either going to be for tax evasion. It's going to be

for some other kind of crime, for violating the terms and conditions of his parole, which is a short leash. Remember, the parole board made very clear about that. But yeah, you're right. It's almost as if we're looking at him as not following rules that apply to all the rest of us that make the rest of I mean, can you imagine? I'd love to make twenty five thousand dollars a month. But it's not in the interest of fairness that he gets any kind of a pass. And he is under a microscope. So all of these points we're bringing up that might land him in future trouble, I don't think he's going to escape because too many eyes are on him as believing he's just gotten one too many breaks in the criminal justice system. This is killing me.

Sean Walsh, Daily Mail TV and DailyMail.com. You know what his lawyer says? The worst thing behind bars. That O.J. Simpson is, quote, bored to tears. Bored to tears. That's his problem. I think if you polled every single American, they'd like to see him bored to tears for the remainder of his life behind bars.

Charles, what is his life going to be now, now that he is walking free? I mean, life for him is going to be very, very interesting because he maintains that element of celebrity. I mean, he's infamous. He's notorious. So wherever he goes, people are going to want to hear from him. They're going to want to hear what he's up to. They're going to follow him.

He's got an appetite for this celebrity. He likes being famous. He's a performer. Don't forget that he wasn't just playing professional football. He was in commercials and TV shows and movies. He likes to be a star, and I wouldn't be surprised that as soon as he gets out, he's going to want to be a star again. Do you believe Sean Walsh, because I think that he would love it,

do you think he's going to star in a reality show? You know what? It wouldn't surprise me. It would not surprise me if we went and saw Life with the Simpsons or Keeping Up with the Simpsons. Ooh, I hadn't even thought of that title. You better run out and copyright that thing or trademark it right now. Here's the thing, though.

Sean Walsh, Dillymill.com. If he does a reality show, then he's actually on a payroll, and all that money would go to Ron Goldman. I think he'd rather eat a dirt sandwich than have money go to Fred Goldman for murdering Ron. He would be on an actual payroll. If I was the IRS, I would be looking at Mr. Simpson and everyone around Mr. Simpson when he gets out because I'm sure Mr. Simpson will be looking for a way

for that money not to go directly to him. So I'd be looking at every single associate attorney, tax agent, everyone around him, because I bet you there'll be a money trail. You know, Sean, when you mentioned earlier, or maybe it was Wendy, $25,000, does he make $25,000 a month? That's from his pension and that's untouchable. And that is one of the reasons why everybody is going to be watching so carefully to see what he makes from the reality shows. And I think Sean brings up a great point. It's not just OJ. He's smart enough to surround himself

with people. Well, we'll see how smart he is, see if it works out. But at least in the past, there's been this suspicion, as you heard with that excited utterance earlier, that there may be money that's being funneled elsewhere, provided the assistance by his friends. So everyone within his circle of influence is going to be under a microscope. You would think that would make him a pariah and people wouldn't want to be associated with him. But you're right, that celebrity is like a magnet. And no doubt he's going to have a circle of people that are fascinated with his life. They're going to be looked at by the IRS as well to make sure they're not funneling cash, whatever it is, on his behalf. Karen Stark, what is that thing that

people want to be attached to celebrities so much they'll do anything? And I'm referring to his group of cronies, those hangers-on. He's a double murderer, but they don't care. They just love being around him. It's a sick, parasitic sort of thing. What is that, Karen Stark? Well, it's a certain kind of charisma. And remember, he's a narcissist, right? And so he comes across as though he doesn't really care whether he's committed a crime, he's done anything wrong. He comes across with a lot of confidence. And I want to tell you something, Nancy. This is really important.

They will watch him because he will break the rules again. O.J. Simpson does not believe that the rules are made for him. He feels he is different. He can do whatever he wants. And he will try to find a way to make sure money does not go to the Goldman's and he will do something wrong because he can't follow the law. Well, this is what it's really all about. It's about a night several years ago when Nicole Brown had her neck sliced so badly she was nearly decapitated. The only thing that held her head on her body was a thin strip of flesh on the back of her spine. That's why her

head was still on her body. The crime scene photo is so gruesome, many people refuse to even print them. Ron Goldman, in the prime of his life, a young man, handsome guy, good guy, shows up to return a pair of glasses Nicole's mom left at the restaurant where he worked. Wrong place, wrong time. In another horrible fit of anger, OJ Simpson murders them both and walks Scott free. It was a punch in the stomach. It was a kick in the teeth to Lady Justice. And yet again, OJ Simpson walks free, but not so fast. You know, the pardon and parole board out in Nevada did a very bad thing in their decision that OJ Simpson should be released. Now, many people say he did his time

on the robbery. Let me tell you about the robbery. This is on top of the double murder of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. He thinks that a sports memorabilia dealer has some of his stuff, and he does have some of his stuff. Everything else he had, rightfully. There were a few family photo albums in there, and I don't know how they got into the mix. But he gets a gang of misfits, and off they go, armed to the teeth, break in on the memorabilia dealer,

hold the gun to his head, cursing, throw at a big fit. They take stuff and leave. That's armed robbery. Armed robbery carries a sentence of 20 to 30 years. He has not done his time. He hasn't even done half of his time. That's a whole another can of worms compared to what's happening right now with Orenthal James Simpson. And with me from Daily Mail TV and DailyMail.com, Sean Walsh, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and renowned psychologist out of New York, Karen Stark. Sean Walsh, what is happening? Is the whole world bass-ackwards? It truly is.

I mean, when I was watching on television the parole board hearing and O.J. said, I have lived a conflict-free life, I had to literally pick my jaw up from the ground and put it back into place. Because as you and I know, that's completely incorrect. Does nobody remember those giant blow-up pictures of Nicole Brown? The whole half side of her face was black and blue, and it wasn't the first time. There were 911 calls where he was beating the door down, screaming he was going to kill her. And he did.

And he did. But also, could this have made any difference? A witness has come forward again, yet again, on Daily Mail TV. Her name is Jill Shively. Jill Shively never made it to trial. What does Jill Shively say happened, Sean Walsh? Jill Shively says that she saw and encountered the Bronco the night of the murders, and she claims that if she'd been put on the stand by Marsha Clark, she could have changed

the course of that trial. We all know what the outcome was. We're all still shocked by it today. But Jill says to this day, it is the greatest regret of her life that she did not get to testify to say that she saw the Bronco during that time period on that night when Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered with Ron Goldman. Let me nail down the details because the devil is in the details. With me, Sean Walsh, Wendy Patrick, Karen Stark. Listen to this, Wendy. This woman, Jill Shively, it's about 11 o'clock the night of June 12th, the night of the killings.

The killings, the double murders of Nicole and Ron go down around 10.15. That's when the dog, Akitaita begins to bark like crazy. At 1040, Kato Kalin, the house guest, hears three bumps on the side of his pool wall. He lived in the pool house. And she, Jill Shively, sees Simpson around 11 o'clock. Guess where she sees him? This would be 20, 25 minutes after the murders. She sees him

coming out of Bundy, South Bundy. The murders go down on Bundy and he's having a fit. He's screaming. That's what gets her attention. She left her house to go to the store, Wendy, 11 o'clock. She sees a white Bronco. She hears screaming. Another vehicle has blocked OJ Simpson's Bronco and he can't get around it. This is right after the murders coming out of South Bundy. Of course, he goes berserk. He's screaming and cursing. She turns around. She and her mother had just gone to see Naked Gun 33 and a third. She went, holy moly, that's OJ Simpson. No, she, no, right then she thought she recognized the voice. She thought he was a drunk driver. That night, she gets home and calls police about the drunk driver. It's on record, Wendy.

Then the next morning, her family tells her about Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. She calls police at 7 a.m. and tells them she sees him leaving the crime scene area the night before at 11 o'clock.

And he made a jackass of himself screaming at another vehicle. She places him at the crime scene within 20 minutes of the murder. This is why she didn't testify. Time passed and she was approached by hard copy and she sold her story. I'm telling you, Wendy, I would have put her up anyway. Because who usually witnesses a murder? Not nuns and priests and virgins.

I can tell you that much. So you have to tell the jury, look, this is what happened. But this is how I know she's telling the truth. She called at 7 a.m. the next morning and at midnight the night it happened before hard copy was ever heard of. Her story was corroborated. You can hate her for selling her story, but this is what she saw. That's what I would have done, but that's not what happened, Wendy Patrick. Yeah, you know, it's a great point, Nancy, because you're right. When you have a celebrity involved, all the rules are different. You have people behaving differently, behaving in ways we wish they wouldn't like selling their

stories. This is why we worry about stealth jurors trying to get onto these types of cases in order to have a book deal afterwards. So the question is, was her credibility tainted so much that a jury would not have believed her testimony? Now, that's something that no doubt was weighed internally within the prosecutor's office. And we all know what the answer to that analysis was. To second guess it now, it's easy for us to know, but who knows what the conversation really was around that conference room table when they were deciding, when they were weighing the equities to decide what they would think, what a jury would think. Well, Wendy Patrick, I've got a little hint. Sean Walsh, what does this witness say,

this incredibly important witness, Jill Shively, say happened with Marsha Clark. She says that this is the greatest regret of her life. She says she wished that she'd gotten the opportunity to be on the stand to say what she saw. And I mean, if you think about it, so many people accept payment for interviews. And this could have easily have been argued by Marsha that, look, she came to us before she went to hard copy. She told us her story.

Jill Shively was very honest and upfront with everybody else that she'd accepted payment, and she could have said that on the stand. Yes, I did, but that does not change what I saw, and this is exactly what I saw. Because fast forward all of these years later, and everyone believes Jill Shively. It didn't matter that she took payment for her story. What she saw is what she saw, and that could have changed the outcome of this case. I'm quoting Jill Shively. She says her confrontation with Marsha Clark after hard copy was, quote,

the worst experience of my life, quote. Marsha Clark flew into a fit. She called me in and screamed at me. She shoved her finger in my face saying I blew her case. She was so mad. You blew it. You blew it. I told her I would not take the money. I would redeem myself on the stand. It didn't matter. She was so mad. It didn't matter that I turned down the money and $100,000 more I was offered later. She told me, I don't need you. I've got plenty of evidence and my case is a slam dunk.

She says, Clark was so angry and arrogant in one of the things her way, it didn't matter. I was trying to make it right. Well, we know what happened after that. We know what happened after that. Karen Stark, psychologist, you and I have seen many, many cases together. There is no such thing as a slam dunk. There is no such thing, Karen. No, and it's a shame that that was the way that she was thinking, because you want to be sure that you have every piece of evidence available to you.

And that egotism really did a disservice to the trial. And I remember just talking to you about it over and over again, how she just didn't seem to be prepared, didn't know how to answer when they would bring up things that she should have been able to fight. And here is one, I agree with you, Nancy, where something could have been done. It really is a shame. Well, you know, Sean Walsh, Daily Mail TV and DailyMail.com, you guys rebroke this story as well as another regarding Bruce Vermong. But on Chivalry, on Chivalry, what did she say on Daily Mail TV?

She says that there isn't a moment in her life when she doesn't think about this. She wishes she could have the time again. And she's also not looking forward to OJ getting out. She's concerned. She's very, very concerned, and she says she has a fear there. And I feel sorry for her. The interview that aired Friday was extraordinarily powerful, and I just think that this is a woman who wishes she could have the opportunity again to make a different decision.

From Daily Mail TV, listen to Jill Shively. You decide. Do you believe her? This is the intersection of Sam andente and Bundy where everything happened, where I almost collided with OJ Simpson. That night I remember being hungry, and I needed to get to the grocery store before it closed at 11. I'm rushing up to the intersection of San Vicente and Bundy. That's when I almost got hit by a white Bronco with his lights off.

I saw him. He looked at me, and I looked at him. I knew that person driving the Bronco was an athlete. I knew right away it was OJ because I had just seen him in a movie. He looked angry, in a hurry, looked upset, as if I had done something to him. And at that time I believed he was drunk

because why would you drive that way? He took off flying around the gas station up north on Bundy. A couple blocks down here is Nicole's home. I did not know until later that I was blocks away from the murder. I have nightmares about that night of almost colliding with OJ. If I had only hit his car, he could not have denied he was there. That would have blown his timeline.

That 10 seconds at that intersection has changed my life in so many ways. Losing my job, having to seek counseling. To this day, I've had heart issues. Being here, remembering that night gives me the creeps. I feel like I'm in a horror movie right now. It's like going back to the scene of the crime for me. Whenever I hear O.J. Simpson's name, I get anxious. I feel sick to my stomach. Bottom line, Sean Walsh,

she is forever marked as the witness that didn't make it to the stand. She is forever branded, you know, like the scarlet letter that she sold her testament. Let me tell you something, Sean, I have had junkies. I have had defendants. I have had, I don't even know who I've put on the stand before. And this is what you do. And I learned it the hard way, Sean. I almost lost a case. It was an aggravated assault.

A stripper was walking down an alley with a guy who may have also been a stripper. I'm not sure about him. She was ag assault robbed. She was dressed that night as a so-called sexy cheerleader. It was one of my first cases and I didn't know how the jury would respond to her and I was afraid they would think she was in on the robbery. She wasn't. She really was armed robbed. So I said, do not say one thing about being a stripper. If it's brought up, admit it. Don't lie, but don't bring it up. All right. And so I started off about, you know, where are you from? How long have you been in Atlanta? Blah, blah, blah. Where do you go to church?

Blah, blah, blah. The jury's looking at me like, what are you even talking? We know she's a stripper. Okay? I mean, you could just tell. So long story short, you cannot hide anything from a jury. So from that point on, luckily, I won the case. You don't hide anything from the jury.

They just should have been straight up, Sean. They should have been straight up and honest. Honest. Be honest. If you're honest, you have credibility, and then people will believe everything you say. And in this interview that she did with Daily Mail TV, you believe her. She's credible. She's honest.

She tells the truth. And I think that not only is this Jill's biggest regret, it's probably one of Marsha Clark's biggest regrets. Although, you know, people, it's very hard for them to ever admit they did anything wrong. I guarantee you there's a lot of finger pointing going on. Oh, it was the jury. Oh, it was the judge. Oh, it was the judge.

Oh, it was this. Oh, it was that. I don't know. All I know, Simpson walking free. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a group of people just like you to talk motives and alibis with?

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