Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - LAST KNOWN FOOTAGE OF NANCY GUTHRIE REVEAL KILLER ID?

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

The search for Nancy Guthrie continues. It's been three months since the mother of TV host Savannah Guthrie and her two siblings has been seen. Early in the investigation, Annie Guthrie gave police a hand drawn map of the route she thought the kidnapper could have taken. Will surveillance from businesses or traffic cameras along that passage reveal any vehicle traveling that way the night Nancy went missing?  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Brian Fitzgibbons - Director of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security, Leads a team of investigators specializing in locating missing persons, website: www.uspasecurity.com, Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security, former Marine and Iraq war veteran Sheryl McCollum  - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host of podcast: Zone 7, Author of a new book: "Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer: Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer's Daughter", Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Instagram @JoScottForensic,  Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The last known footage of Nancy Guthrie does it reveal the killer's ID. This as the Nancy Guthrie Killer's Route revealed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

She is 84 years old. her health, her heart is fragile. And every hour and minute and second and every long night has been agony since then. She is without any medicine. She needs it to survive. We need your help. What a difference.

A DoorDash, an Uber, a delivery, a lift can make. Do you remember in Brian Coburger's prosecution after the murders of four beautiful University Idaho students? You have to testify. I think my murder case students, so yeah, because I'm a Dooddash driver, so yeah. You have to testify in which murder case, but we call those girls. Oh. I'm a Doordas for a separate right now.

Yeah, take that, Coburger, busted by the DoorDash Delivery Woman. To Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan, but for our purposes, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 investigations under his belt. Joe Scott Morgan, do you remember in Coburger? I witness DoorDash Delivery Person identifies Coburger as being out. outside the murder scene, 1122 King Road, at the time of the murders. Four o'clock in the morning.

Really? Busted. Now, in this case, go ahead. No, I was going to say, I'm reflecting back right now. You could have knocked me over with a feather when we got that footage. Do you remember that? Because we didn't know that that existed. And all of a sudden, and all it takes, Nancy, is just one little turn of the

the screw, right? Something that we're not completely aware of, and then all of a sudden, boom, the narrative completely changes, or at least the narrative is more clear. And I think, I think we might be headed down this road with Mrs. Guthrie, Nancy. What we're talking about is the driver that drove Nancy Guthrie home. Now, we've been told over and over and over that the feds and Anos, for what good that is, has been looking at what Nancy had on, what she said. But what about in the background? We have just learned that in the Celeste Rivas case where D4VD, aka David Anthony Burke, is now charged in her murder and her dismemberment of this then 13-year-old little girl, don't show me him. I've seen him enough.

I don't care if I ever see him again. The Tesla, the Tesla. Every Tesla has 360 degree visual unless it's been destroyed. In this case, see how valuable that is in the Celeste Rivas case? In this case, no one until a few days ago has been looking at around, around that Uber delivery, that Uber drive. So what, if anything, can we learn Joe Scott Morgan? Well, certainly directionality.

You know, what route was taken? And also, you know, look, as an old investigator, I want to know as much as I possibly can about the driver, you know, that they have an awareness of her, maybe who she is, this sort of thing, where they followed in any way, I think. And so any kind of players that might be involved in this peripheral. Look, we'll take anything, right? We'll take absolutely anything relative to the data

that can be sourced. Where did this individual go before? Okay, he picked up Mrs. Guthrie. Where did he go after? He picked up, Mrs. Guthrie. I want to know everything about it in granular detail, Nancy. Now, we know that the Uber driver picked Nancy up and took her to any Guthrie's home for dinner. From what we can tell, there was intense planning of the kidnap of Mrs. Guthrie. So what we're getting at is when he picked up Mrs. Guthrie to take her to Annie's, we have reason to believe the Purt was already in the neighborhood positioned waiting. Straight out to Cheryl McCollum joining us, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder. She is also a crime scene investigator, and she is the star of a hit podcast, Zone 7.

She's the author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a sewer, solving the cold case of the Flint River Killer's daughter. Amazing book, by the way. Cheryl McCollum, thank you for being with us. We have reason to believe that if you, you know when you don't know a horse, Cheryl McCollum, you look at his track record. We already know that Ms. Guthrie's kidnapper was there on January. January 11, he's caught on video and very likely there on previous occasions. You know he was in that neighborhood and poised with his accomplice when Mrs. Guthrie was first picked up and taken to Annie Guthrie's. Many people believe he may have already gotten into her place before Mrs. Guthrie returned home that night.

You know, Nancy, I want to go back to the car first. When I first get to a scene and I get out of my car, I take photographs up and down the street. The reason is I don't know what cars belong there and what don't. I don't know who parks on the street normally, who's in a driveway, etc. They can go back with that Tesla video and see if there's somebody parked on the side of the road, if there's somebody parked in a driveway that doesn't belong. This person, we know, cased out her home before. You already mentioned the 11th.

We think, you know, again, on the 20-something and then on the 30th. This person tasted. They knew her, you know, comins and goings. They knew what she looked like. On this night, they, I believe, were laying in wait. I think they know exactly when she got home. And that's why you see him going back to the front door after all the lights are out. And he thinks she sound asleep.

Cheryl, Cheryl, Cheryl. Guys, joining me in addition to Joe Scott Morgan. Cheryl McCollum is with us, the star of Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl, how many cases did you and I work together in intercity Atlanta and Fulton County? I mean, can we even count them? I can't. Thousands, thousands. Yeah, you know, it's hard when I look back to count the numbers, 100, 150 brand new felonies a week times four.

that's a month times 12 times 10 years plus that's a lot of cases so Cheryl is there anything new under the sun defendants do the same thing over and over and over they can't help themselves like think about it everybody listening right now do you brush your teeth the same way at the same time every morning in the same order do you wash your clothes a certain way do you get somewhere in your car and go oh my goodness I don't even remember getting here I must have zoned out people do the same things over and over and over. It's like it's muscle memory. So what I'm saying, Cheryl, we know this guy, the perp, one of them anyway, because I believe there had to be at least two involved.

We know this guy lay in wait before. We know he cases saying more than once. So he was very high on preparation, getting there ahead of time. what would be any different this time? It's like every time a dog sits down, it circles three times. You know he was in that neighborhood, which makes it very important to review the video from the Uber driver that picked up Mrs. Guthrie that night.

And also Cheryl McCollum, a lot has been made about the daughter, Annie Guthrie and brother-in-law of Savannah Guthrie. their car being impounded and why it took so long. How do I know it didn't have 360 nav, just like a Tesla? Remember what we learned in the Alex Murdoch double murder trial and the murders of his wife, Maggie and son Paul? His SUV, it was a big honking like a wagon ear or something, revealed so much data. When he took off from the crime scene that night, scratching off, when he

slowed down his vehicle, let the passenger window down electronically. Yes, the black box of his car showed that. Throughout Maggie's cell phone and then scratched off to hide out at his mother's house. Remember all that? So much we can learn. So Cheryl, yeah. So while their vehicle was in impound, how do I know they weren't looking at that? They should have been.

They not only should be looking at any type of data that, could come from the car, whether it's video or from the black box. Did that car move after 9 o'clock? They would know that. And that's why it's critical when you're ruling people in and ruling them out. Go through all of it in order to truly rule somebody out. The data from that phone, the data from the car is going to tell the story. That's not something they can manipulate.

The Uber driver the same way. If he were to put his phone on airplane mode, that black box in that car is still operational and still telling us whether it's rolling forward, in park, the trunk opens, the passenger door opens, we will know all of it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to you, Joe Scott Morgan, you and I, and I believe Cheryl and Fitz were talking at the very, very beginning when Ms. Guthrie went missing about the importance, the critical nature of vehicles in this case. And now it's coming true. Yeah, we absolutely were because she's dependent, I think, to a great degree upon people moving her about. And so our vehicles are so tied to who, what our identity is and how how we move about and also where we are at any given time. So I think that this could be one of the keys

it's going to unlock this. We can talk about physical evidence all you want to, but the big piece to this is her movement because that's essential, Nancy. And one of the big questions we've always had, how did she get into the house, out of the house, was she conveyed in any way, what's being implied here?

So all of the actors that at least the police have revealed to this point are going to play a role in this, trying to create this timeline, And hopefully, Nancy, it's rather grim, but where is she? I think is a big part to this as well. And that's a question that we all want to know, right? We want to know who the PURP is, but we want to know where she is in her current status, Nancy. Well, again, a track record.

How many cases have been busted by vehicles? And all we need is one clue about the vehicle. I mean, think it through. Let's take a look just for the fun of it at Brian Coburger's white elantra, zipping around the neighborhood, caught on one cam after the next, after the next. And it wasn't just Brian Coburger. Do I have to say, Molly Tibbitts? As you will recall, Cheryl McCollum, star of Zone 7,

Cheryl McCollum in the Molly Tibbitt's case, the pert was unknown to her. There was no connection which made the case, more difficult to crack. It was like a needle in a haystack until video emerged of the killer's car going back and forth and back and forth.

And then you see Molly Tibbets come into the frame and the person, the perp, is talking to her, trying to get her in the car. She threatens to call 911. What was interesting about that vehicle? It had distinct markings

along the side of it, and that is how the killer was caught. And we've seen it play out over and over again. In the case of the glam yoga teacher, Caitlin Armstrong, her SUV, let's take a look at that, was spotted going round and around and around the murder scene. Just before a world-class female dirt bike racer was murdered. over what a man? Because her boyfriend, Caitlin Armstrong's boyfriend,

had a hamburger with the victim. So what's her logical action? Kill her. That video cracked the case. So in this case, straight out to Brian Fitzgibbon's joining us, Director of Operations USA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world,

finding and extracting missing people. is also a former Marine and Iraqi War vet. Brian, this vehicle, I understand that new eyes are now looking at video, looking at video for parked cars, for people walking, not just on the night of the abduction, but before that, because we know the kidnapper was there ahead of time. That is his MO, modus operandi, method of operation. So what could the Uber driver's car reveal, depending on what kind of car it is?

I think you and Joe Scott Morgan hit the nail on the head just earlier there, that what's in the background in the periphery of that video? So on top of establishing that Mrs. Guthrie was coherent in a good state while she was in that ride, there might be other things that we can see. Was there a vehicle spotted on a front-facing camera? Some of these Ubers have not only rear-facing passenger cameras, but they could have front-facing cameras as well operating at the same time. And I'll add one piece here.

There are still thousands of hours of video collected from both public and private sources that that review is ongoing in a very tedious effort. but what they're focusing on is trying to find a vehicle in the right space and right time that can lead to be further further investigated. Now, we know moving beyond the Uber driver that picked up Nancy Guthrie that night, a lot has been made to you, Joe Scott Morgan, about Annie Guthrie and her husband's vehicle. We know that it was a blue Honda CRV and Hondas. CRV specifically do have nav system depending on the trim level you get on the car. Now, what does that mean?

And what, if anything, can we learn from that? Because he, the son-in-law, brings Nancy home. And you know the killer was somewhere in the area when she was brought home. When we're thinking about her delivery back home, who exactly is out there watching? because Nancy, as I've held all along, and I think this is kind of obvious, but this is a targeted attack. They knew her. They knew who she was. She knew.

They knew her comings and goings. And here's the thing. They knew that she's vulnerable. And so they're going to spring whenever they see that her guard is down. We're talking about kind of late at night. You know, she's barely ambulatory. She's worn out. She's been with her.

family at this point of time, they know she's going to turn in for bed, Nancy. It's been a long day, right? And so they're observing. They're waiting. They're watching. Now, what are they waiting for? Exactly because, you know, that's a bigger question thinking about, you know, why out of all the people in the world would they want to go after this poor woman? Well, I mean, I have my own thoughts about that relative to they know who her daughter is. I think everybody's going to know that's involved in this. And so they've targeted her, right? And so they're going to wait until they can spring their trap. And the question is, where did they put their vehicle to transport her off? And back to what Brian had said, this idea of going through all of this videography is going to be key to try to

determine where another vehicle may have come and introduced themselves or itself into this equation, this visual equation that we're looking, that we're trying to figure out at this point in time, that's going to be critical. And look, I don't know who's looking at the video. I'm assuming it's probably the feds. I hope it's the feds. And that they're going to try to break this down into the base elements, because nothing, and I mean nothing, Nancy, at this point in time, is off the table. Everybody has to be considered. And, you know, as my grandpa, you say let the hide come with the hair. I don't care who it impacts relative to the evidence relative to a vehicle.

Check it out. Go out there. Look for these individuals. Put them up against a wall. Talk to them about it. Let's find out why were you there during that night? I'm hoping that they've done it to this point. I'm hoping that they're continuing to do it because you have to press, press, press, and any investigation.

As we well know, time, time. is a precious commodity in this case. So tonight, in addition to a re-review of video footage from not only that Uber driver, but from any Guthrie's vehicle, to determine not just what was Mrs. Guthrie wearing, what was her demeanor, did she look ill, was she concerned, not just that, looking for the vehicle. And that is going to require a lot of enhance. of the video, God willing the video is still there.

We also learned that fresh eyes are reviewing the evidence from the feds. Not only is that video being reviewed as we go to air, we learn that Annie Guthrie herself provided the route. She believes the killer used that night. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Dave Matt, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. What is this? Where did it come from?

This actually, Annie Guthrie was in a group chat online with neighbors and sent this map to them at the beginning of the investigation, Nancy. This was put out there early, hoping that somebody might have seen something or had video along. You see the blue map line there that somebody along that way could look through their video. I mean, this is really an incredible source of information from Annie Guthrie coming up with what she thought was the plan or the route, rather, taken by on the way home. So they're looking for anyone along this pathway, you know, that might have seen something. It's curious when you really get into this that she's marked different addresses along the way. it's just an incredible piece of information that Annie Guthrie offered to this group with neighbors talking about the area. You know, if this route is real, if this is the route the killer took, straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum joining us,

crime scene investigator of a many years, author of a brand new book and Star of Zone 7. Okay, what do we do with it? This is the route that Annie Guthrie is allegedly convinced the killer used. It's full of evidence. Nancy, when you're looking at this map and you see all the places, the nail salon, I mean, you've got tons of businesses. You've got residential areas. I would not, number one, I would not limit my investigation to this map, but I would certainly go through it based on what her daughter believes could be a route. we are over 80 days into this thing and we don't have a legitimate video of a vehicle.

You've got to ask yourself why. How is that possible with all of these intersections that we know have cameras, the gas stations, the churches, the businesses? How do we not have a vehicle? Well, Nancy, as you know, I was out there. And here's what I can tell you. At any given point almost, you could take a hard right or a hard left and cut through little parts of the desert.

It's vast. It's open. You don't have to go through that intersection if you don't want to. You can go right through parts of the land and avoid some of these places. So again, we know at 127, he's at the front door. We know by 229, the app has disconnected to her watch. We have a timetable. there's no way at this point after 80 days

they can't pinpoint one mile away in that circumference and not catch him somehow and I think of all the planning he avoided those cameras you know he avoided those cameras Cheryl I hear what you're saying but it's also a non-sequitory doesn't make sense if he did all that camera avoidance then how come he didn't know the camera on her front porch worked

I don't think he cared because again he's not in a hurry. He knows he's completely covered. He knows there's no connection to her. They don't know who he is. She doesn't know who he is. Again, after 80 days, we don't know who he is. So he didn't have a jammer. Otherwise, he wouldn't be acting like he did. I don't believe he had an accomplice. If he did, why is he the only one called on video over multiple days and multiple times? Why is he the only one we see dressed the same? And the only thing that changes on the 30th, he now has a weapon and a backpack. He came mission ready on that day.

He was ready that day. The days before, chasing the joint, laying out his plan. Let's look in depth at the route, Annie Guthrie identified as the killer's route. Let's start with Lulu Walker Elementary School. First out to you, Brian Fitzgibbons, take a look at that. You know they've got to have. have cameras. On the map is to the far left. See that? It's on the frontage. In other words, it faces the street. They have got to have cameras all over. What do you make of it?

Yeah, and this map was provided by Annie Guthrie out to the public in an effort to generate video tips, right, to identify a route and say, hey, any private residences and individual that may have captured video, send this in right away. Now, to your point about the elementary school, we've got public locations like a school, library, and then you have private businesses along that route, pharmacies, gas stations, things like that, that undoubtedly captured video at that time.

And I think we've talked a lot about a lot of the missteps here. Getting this route information out was not one of them. This would help generate those leads and help people to save that video before it expired. Joe Scott, there is a plethora of information. Look at the elementary school. What do you see? Well, I can see four points or at least probably multiple, more than four points of where cameras could be positioned. And it's going to have a field of, of, uh,

visual perspective. Here's the thing. When you take a look at this and these cameras, if they're working, and we've run into that before, have we not? On each corner of the building, these cameras, their field of view will be intersecting. Okay. So if you think about the vision that a camera has, as it goes out, it kind of expands, right? So each one of these points will intersect with the other. The cool thing about this from, let's just say from the perspective of the school,

that these things are going to be overlapping, all right? They're going to overlap. And you can catch, if you can't catch it from one, you can catch it from the other. I'm talking about the color description of the vehicle. And in addition to that, you might be able to get a hit on a license plate relative to all of this. So these fields of view, if you will, are intersecting or overlapping of one another. And this is on, obviously, a main thoroughfare here. We're talking about a school, right?

So parents are coming and going throughout the day. They're going to have a circle, you know, that you have to pass through, drop these kids off. And nowadays, with the way schools are, security is at the top of their list. So hopefully these cameras are all functioning. hopefully they're sensitive enough to pick up on any critical data. I got something for you, everybody. Green Toes North Nail Salon and Massage. Take a look to the right of the building, right in front.

Surveillance camera. Right in front, Cheryl McCollum. That's the first thing that I saw, Nancy, when you sent the picture. Not only is it right in the front, it would capture the parking lot and the roadway. So again, my question becomes, why don't we have the car if this is the route that he took? We would know the time that the app separated from the pacemaker, that the approximate time that he would be passing through there. Again, you're talking about two in the morning, 2.30, 3 a.m. There's not going to be that many vehicles.

I don't understand how we don't already have it. My other question becomes, why does Annie Guthrie believe this is the route and where does she think they were going? Those are key questions for me that I don't know the answer to yet. But again, you pass more cameras than you know every day. ATMs have cameras. Buses have cameras. I mean, you're on camera more than you think you are, but after 80-something days, we don't have this guy. Tonight is the killer's route to Nancy Guthrie's home revealed.

I've got a big question to you, Brian Fitzgibbons. This information is coming from Savannah's sister, Annie Guthrie, reportedly. Mrs. Guthrie's daughter, obviously. Why is it so often that trained investigators discount civilian theories? And I always go back to an incredible example. It's the case of Gabby Petito. Gabby missing. Nobody knows where Gabby is.

Her parents are distraught. They're frantic. They're in a panic. They can't get any cooperation from Brian Laundry's family who's staying quiet. They know that Gabby Petito did not come back from a cross-country trip with her fiancee, Brian Laundrie. They know she's missing. He's in her Ford Transit. Where is she? If it had not been for civilian sleuths that spot her Ford Transit in the middle,

of dispersed camping. You know what that is? We're campers. It means there are no lights. There are no electric hookups. There's no porta-potties. There's nothing. You're out there with the antelopes.

You and the crickets. If they had not spotted her Ford Transit and said, hey, that looks like Gabby Potato's transit. And they call police. And not far from there, what was left of her remains were found. Why is it law enforcement so often discounts civilian tips like what Annie has provided? Yeah, there's an inherent bias with a number of investigators based on their experience. They look at somebody from the public is from a family member and they see a lot of emotion there

and they immediately discount what's being said. Now, I'll call back right to the beginning of this investigation. Annie Guthrie was in the house telling investigators there is no chance that she want that Mrs. Guthrie wandered off that she's unable to walk more than 50 yards on her own power and they were still in the immediate sense treating it as an elderly person wandering off. So, hey, this comes to missed opportunities, right? No investigator, no investigative agency is going to be perfect. However, you know, there have been some big missteps here with not listening to the family and, you know, might I say some of these tips from the public. Cheryl McCollum, you are a crime scene investigator. In my cases that I prosecuted, those are the first people I listened to.

It's the family and what input they have in a case. Here, for whatever reason you're wondering why. You know what? At some point, Cheryl, why ask why? just accept that Annie Guthrie believes this is the route the killer took and run with it. Why is that law enforcement is so resistant to civilian or family input? I think in this case, you have to listen to her. Nothing else has panned out.

And to me, you're at that scene, Nancy, if this was you and I standing inside that house, we don't even have to listen to Annie. You're looking over there, her eyeglasses are there, her cell phone is there, her irides are there, her walker is there, her shoes are there. This woman didn't leave on her own. It's clear she did not. So if you've got her child telling you, I think this is the route, you need to check it out anyway.

From her home, that driveway, you can only go left or right. Once you get to a major intersection to the left and one to the right, at that point, if you do not have that killer's car own video, Then pay attention to what her daughter's telling you, you got to check it out. You have to check out all routes. You have to check out all cameras. Even if we thought that the kidnapper went to the right, I'm going to go to the houses to the left. Because again, Nancy, he cased the joint.

He looked at all the homes. He looked at where he could park and hide and then go to her house and be unseen the entire time. No neighbor, again, has produced. the vehicle. We have him. He's been caught on camera more than once at the front door, but not from a neighbor. Take a look now at Circa 79 Salon. It has just been renovated. I'm going to show you now the before shop. Before it was renovated, it was called Chantilly Tea Room, and it was transitioned into circa 79. To Dave Matt,

Crime Stories Investigative Reporter, as we're taking a look at the Circa 79 salon formerly, Chantilly Tea Room, the fact that it was renovated is important. I'm going to get to that. You heard Cheryl McCollum say, why did Annie think this is the route? You know what?

Why ask why? Again, she thinks it's the route based on what she knows. So I'm running with it. And I'm not just looking for the purpose. I'm looking for his vehicle and not just the day of the kidnapping other days, like January 11. So why do we believe, if we know, why did Annie choose this route as the likely route the killer took? Nancy, we don't know specifically why, but this was Annie Guthrie in the first days of the investigation.

And she's trying to help. Her mom is missing. You know, she's in a panic mode of helping. She's not getting any feedback, leading her to believe that she's getting the results. She's after, which is, where's my mom? So she actually volunteers. Here's where, because, you know, she lives in the area. Annie Guthrie and Tomasso don't live that far from Nancy Guthrie's home.

And so she knows all of the routes. She knows the roads that people go and drive on. And that's why she put it out there. And I agree with you. More than just a Joe Blow citizen, you know, calling this in. This is the daughter of the victim, and she's putting this out there as a possibility. Now, this is a very specific getaway route, and it's easy to follow right there on the map. So when you get down to the nitty-gritty, Nancy, this was Annie trying to help.

Okay, bottom line, there was a lot of words to say, we don't know. But thank you anyway. Let's take a look at Chantilly T-Rome. That is what Circus 79 was before it was. remodeled. It's a big structure over 3,000 feet, but what's interesting to me, it was remodeled by retail specialists with Cushman Wakefield. Why do I care? Because if it was remodeled recently, Cheryl McCollum, that tells me they've got surveillance cameras. Possibly, what concerns me with any remodel is the cameras are going to be, you know, taken apart. They're going to be rewired. So for a period of time, they won't have any. And it's probably the last thing they're going to put back together. So again, I'm not asking why, you know, the reason

that you're thinking. I'm asking why for the investigation. If this pans out and we know the direction they're going, then we know where they're probably taking her. Now we know where better to search. Again, Nancy, I have not seen a legitimate search, meaning let's get some volunteers out there. Let's go shoulder to shoulder. Let's pan out. Let's get some horses and ATVs. We haven't seen it. We haven't seen a call for a search from Savannah Guthrie. She could have gotten 5,000 volunteers out there. It hasn't happened. So either law enforcement doesn't think this has anything to do with an escape route or they're ignoring. vital evidence, but I'll tell you, I wish we had the 911 call. I wish we had the first thing they said. I think that would help us determine, you know, who, who did they suspect first? What

did they say first? I think that would help us. Joe Scott Morgan jump in. Yeah. So if we'd look at these two points, Green Toes and the Circa 79 Salon, you know, as it's entitled on the map, guess what you have to do there, Nancy. You have to slow down because this intersects with a major thoroughfare. The critical point is, is it if there is a stoplight, if there is at those, just those two points alone, a stoplight, a stop sign, the individual driving this route, driving that vehicle will have at least had to do a pause. You know, some people refer to it as a California role, right, where you come in, you don't completely stop and then you go ahead and go. It's not like, like this vehicle at those two spots would blast past it, past these locations.

We go back to Coburger, we think about that 20-mile circle or whatever it was where they're catching these glimpses. That ain't happening here. That individual would have to slow that vehicle down to the point where you can actually capture something. And if there are any more of these kind of intersections along the way, those are going to be critical points, all right, of where the individual would have had to have slowed down enough where you can actually get a capture off of these cameras. I think that those are going to be very important points. I'm glad that you pointed these out because, look, I mean, you got nothing else to go on. If you look at the elementary school, yeah, it makes kind of a dog-like turn there,

but did that stop there or they just kind of roll over past it? These other places, you've got intersections with a major thoroughfare, they're going to have to slow at least. They're just think about their own preservation. They don't want to get teaponed as they're pulling out there. It's just human nature. They're going to have to slow down. That could be a critical point or critical points right there. And amazingly tonight, Dave Mack has done his own investigation into the route that Andy Guthrie provided and learned something very, very probative.

What about it, Dave? Nancy, remember we had the card that was seen on a ring camera that was about two and a half miles from Nancy Guthrie's home? and it was on a back road away from the scene. It was dismissed by the police or the Sheriff's Department. When I laid that map over, the route on that, that road does not show up on Annie Guthrie's, you know, route for getting away from the scene. But you lay it over and it's right in there.

It fits as a possible route that could have been used as the escape route. It's right in the same general area. And that may answer Cheryl's question as to why, came up with this route. That video from our friends at Fox News. And tonight, another theory emerges by a renowned psychologist. Do you buy it? Listen.

Fulls of intelligence involved here, which has pointed to me for a very long while now, to a group of people, at least two. There is someone behind the curtain who's more intelligent, more scheming, and then the individual who actually carries it out. Because one of the prime reasons for eliminating a person other than financial is that they know something. That is our friend, Dr. Gary at Bracotto, he's an esteemed psychologist, and that is him from a hit on TMZ, our friend's Harvey Levin. As much as I think of Bracado, I'm not buying that she was kidnapped or killed somewhere else,

and the killer went back to the scene to put her. blood on the porch and open and shut the doors? I mean, we have her heart monitor, her pacemaker, placing her there that night. So Joe Scott Morgan, what do you make of this theory that there's some motive we don't understand, that nobody understands that she was taken and killed elsewhere and the perp goes back to the scene to stage, including putting her blood on the front porch? So the killer, just so that I understand this, actually had the foreknowledge to show up and not just stage the blood, but also deposit expert there.

And what I mean by that is you've got blood that is being blown out of the nose and the mouth. And I'm going to stand by that. There's a close up. You look at the top right, that cluster. Yeah, right in there. in that tile space right there, you see those big depositions that are like the size of a nickel, perhaps, those tiny depositions. Nancy, the only way you get that, I mean, I guess the person could have showed up with a turkey baster maybe drawn up some blood and kind of blasted it out and then a loud gravitational blood droplets, which would be the nickel-sized stuff, but those tiny little droplets.

And let me set the record straight. That's not aspirate. It's expert. So what that means is that the blood is actually... You do hear yourself, right? The killer came back with a turkey baser full of Nancy Guthrie's blood. Okay, I don't usually cut your mind, but I am sorely tempted. Move forward.

No, listen, it's implausible. The physical science, just looking at those images, by the way, that were generated from a member of the media that walked up and took those pictures because the scene was unsecured. that deposition right there flies in the face of that, Nancy. It really does. And I cannot imagine that whoever this rocket scientist is that did this had the foreknowledge to come in and set this up and stage it up.

Because that expert up there, that's not asked. You know, Joe, Scott, while I've got you, a lot of viewers have questioned the fact that, oh, these photos are from our friends at Fox News, by the way, a lot of viewers have questioned foliage being on top. of the blood, which could have happened in any number of ways. But could you weigh in on that before I go to our other guests? Yeah, because you have, it's just basic physical science. If you have the blood deposition right there, how in the world did the greenery get on top of the blood?

I've actually heard people say, well, there's evidence that there is, there are bits of foliates with blood deposited on top of it. So I think that that's going to be a big question here. And again, hey, Nancy, guess what? We don't know because the scene wasn't secured. These images that you're seeing do not come from the police, all right? You've had what, pizza delivery guys, pool boys. Okay, you're going down the garden path. You're way out in the weeds.

Let's get it back in the middle of the road. You don't think that theory works, right? That's what I'm talking about. No, I don't think it works. Absolutely not. I mean, you had to really do a backflip and involve a turkey baser to make that theory work. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, what about it? And, you know, Riccato's really smart guy.

I don't know where this theory came from. What do you make of it? If you look at the 90-degree angle drops, some of them are clear in the center or have a half-moon. The only way that happens is if they have air. That comes from the nose of the mouth, period. You could not take blood, transfer it, drop it, and have that same conclusion. How does the foliage get on top of the blood? That's easy.

We see him on video placing that flower clump on top of the camera. At some point, they fell off. That's easy. Okay, to you, Brian Fitzgibbens, you have gone all around the world finding missing people. I've got a lot of questions for you about Sonora, Mexico. But if you could weigh in on what Burkado said, and again, he is no idiot. But this theory that she was kidnapped or killed in another location and the perp came back to stage the scene to make us think, it happened there, it flies in the face of all the physical evidence. You've got to follow the physical evidence, like the blood, like the pacemaker.

I'll defer to Cheryl McCollum and Joe Scott on the forensic side, but what I'll add is someone like Dr. Burkato provides such supporting fires for someone like me in the field. And I'll explain this. An investigator can get locked into a certain hypothesis, a certain theory, right? And where you bring in somebody like Dr. Burkato to present these potential hypotheses, yeah, maybe the forensic evident shoots it down quickly. Maybe it takes a day or two to shoot it down, but it gives another angle for the investigation to look at. And sometimes that creates a breakthrough, right? Because I can say for myself, sometimes I'll get locked into one hypothesis or theory versus another. And someone like that

presenting, hey, there's someone controlling this from afar, one foot soldier on the ground executing the abduction, right? These are things that might get missed on the- tonight that, quote, fresh eyes have been brought in Fitzgibbans to take a fresh look at the evidence all over again. And I got to tell you something, Fitz, I'd be stuck in my office at the district attorney's office in downtown Atlanta. And it'd be 8 o'clock at night. I'd be looking at the same thing over and over. Then my investigator, Ernest, we were together over 10 years, only had one fight in 10 years over that POS OJ Simpson. him that said he'd walk in say why are you still here and i tell him and he would say just out of the

blue well what about x he was coming from a different point of view something fresh there's nothing wrong with that and that's what's happening tonight we're told 100 percent and that's where you know a talented individual like dr burkato hey you know babe ruth struck out a number of times at home plate, right? He also hit a lot of home runs. So, you know, that's where that experience and brain power comes into play in investigation. And tonight to Dave Mack, apparently Sheriff Nanos, the sheriff in Pima County, is in, quote, uncharted career territory, a 10-day deadline has run out. He's in hot water yet again. Dave Mack, is this anything like when you get a skunk at a softball game when the other side just doesn't show up. In other words, doesn't sufficiently

hand in the filing. So the other side wins. A lot like that, Nancy. In reality, Nanos was given 10 days to turn in a response to the questions the council had. And what he did was he basically sat down with his lawyer and wrote up excuses for things, but it wasn't under oath. So he turned in basically an undocumented list of excuses for his behavior and the things that he had said, but not under oath. And now the council is having to determine moving forward with his entire future. We told him to do this, but he did that instead. So they're having to make a decision on whether or not they actually pull him back in,

put him under oath, and go through this whole process all over again to discuss his previous accusations of lying and misusing his office during a. an election year. Cheryl McCollum, don't you know that if they can get rid of him on a technicality, in other words, he didn't properly fill out these forms, he'll get the boot. Right, he'll be taking the pat and turner, pat the street and turn the corner. Bye. And Nancy, that is only going to serve to hurt this investigation, somebody would have to come in,

and they would have to start all over, go through every single thing. That would hamper the investigation, sadly, but, Let me tell you something. I don't think any of us on this panel has had all the confidence in the world in this sheriff. Statements like, your guess is as good as mine. When he says things like, oh, there's thousands of vehicles at that time of day, we all know that's not possible. You know, he is the one that said, oh, I believe she's still alive. Again, I don't think there's an expert out there that believes Nancy Guthrie is still alive.

Nobody is being held somewhere. So he's flip-flop, he's given bad information, he's contradicted himself. There's not a lot of, you know, trust in what he's doing. But anybody would hate to see all of this happening now. I feel for the family, the Guthrie family is not getting what they deserve in this investigation, period. Oh, goodness, no. But to you, Joe Scott Morgan, I don't know that I agree if it would be such a bad thing for Nanos to be replaced, even though it is midstream.

Yeah, I don't think that it would be, but we have to look at this from a very, let's take the 30,000 foot view on this, Nancy, and you know this better than anybody. What's this going to vote for the future of the investigation and for if they hook somebody up on this? What's it going to vote for that prosecution, perhaps? You know that the attorneys will have a field day with this.

They'll say that there's, you know, it's rife with incompetence, that you missed evidence, all these sorts of things. And isn't it funny? Isn't it funny how those things that you do at the beginning of any investigation are going to echo through time? And this case, this case in and of itself, is a benchmark for that. I've got to tell you, Nancy, moving forward with this case, this is actually a case as a college professor that I will present for years. to come saying this is an example, kids, of what not to do. And here we are. We're still in the middle of it. And it just keeps getting more and more bizarre as we go down this road. You know, Fitz, after there have been a number of, to say euphemistically, putting perfume

on the pig, missteps, translation, screw-ups. Is there a way to make a save on this case? I think there is. There's been a tremendous amount of leads generated, a tremendous amount of digital evidence. And it's important to remember here, there's a game clock on here. And the game clock for the public, 88 days and for the Guthrie family, it's tremendously heartbreaking. But the FBI controls that game clock, not the perpetrator of this crime. And they have an unlimited amount of time and resources to go through this evidence and find who did this crime. Okay? So that's an important piece to remember here.

I don't think hope is lost that justice can be served in this case. Well, you just said something that is very encouraging, Brian Fitzgibbon's. You mentioned the feds. If anybody can crack this case, it's them. But they need you. If you know or even think you know anything about the disappearance of Mrs. Guthrie, dial toll-free, 800, 225-5-324.

Repeat, 800-2-25-5-3-24. There is a $1.2 plus million-dollar reward. And if you wish to remain anonymous, 520882-7463, 520882-782-7463, 1.2 plus million dollars on the table. And remember, a conviction not required, an arrest, not required, for you to get the reward. Tonight, we remember an American hero, reserved deputy Heather Avery, Jefferson County Constables, Texas, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving husband, Troy,

and daughter, Caitlin, sentenced to life without her mother. American hero, Deputy Heather Avery. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.