Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - LAUNDRIE DAD MOWS GRASS AROUND GABBY MEMORIAL AFTER CAUSE OF DEATH REPORT

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Gabby Petito was strangled to death by “human force,” according to coroner, Dr. Brent Blue. He said in a televised interview that Petito was throttled. Throttling means that someone was strangled by human force, with no mechanical force involved. In the hours since Gabby Petito's cause of death was released, Brian Laundrie’s father has been seen filling a gas can and then mowing the lawn at his home. Reporters and protestors shouted questions at Chris Laundrie, but he reportedly refused to answer any questions about his son Brian’s whereabouts and whether his son had a history of violence.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Caryn Stark - Psychologist, www.carynstark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Mahsa Saeidi - Investigative Reporter, WFLA-TV (Tampa), Twitter/Instagram: @MahsaWho, Facebook: "WFLAMahsa" Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Death by throttling. Death by throttling. What does that mean? That means when a killer pitches hands around your neck and strangles you until you're dead. That's a throttle death, strangulation. We now know that this young girl, Gabby Petito, A, was murdered, B, by strangulation, C, by manual, by hand strangulation, by throttling. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us in the hours just after the announcement that Gabby Petito was strangled dead.

What's her family doing? What is Brian Laundrie's family doing? Take a listen. You are hearing protesters attacking, harassing Brian Laundrie's father because he's out on the front yard cutting the grass. Take a listen to our cut 3-1-1. Our cut 3-1-1. Listen. Mr. Laundrie, any reaction to the autopsy results?

Do you have anything to say to Gabby's family as they're dealing with learning about the autopsy results? Has he ever tried hurting Gabby in the past that you know why the gas can what do you are you getting gas or is this something you expected mr laundry why aren't you saying anything is there anything you want to say to Gabby's family? Do you know where Brian is? Once again, you're hearing protesters outside Brian Laundrie's home. We now know why he wanted the gas can because he had to cut his yard. All right, let me just soak that in for a moment. No surprise, no registering of any emotion whatsoever when he learns his would-have-been daughter-in-law is strangled dead and left to decompose. I wonder why.

Did he already know she was strangled dead? And he thinks it's appropriate to go cut the grass around a makeshift memorial in the front yard to Gabby Petito. It's just insult on injury. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. It's ever-changing. High-profile lawyer out of Florida and former FBI agent Dale Carson at dalecarsonlaw.com. Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us out of Manhattan at karenstark.com. Karen with a C. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute at coldcasecrimes.org, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host of a brand new hit series on iHeart Podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But straight out to Masa

Saidi, investigative reporter, WFLA-TV. Masa cutting the grass around her memorial just a couple of hours after it is announced publicly that she was strangled, dead, throttled? Yeah, Nancy, that's exactly what we saw today outside of the Laundrie family home in Northport. To give you some context, today marks exactly one month since Brian disappeared, according to the family timeline. It is October 13th, and this oct morning after we learned to Gabby Petito strangula throttling as you explain

outside of his home. Of c were there, the protestor started to know his grass for much of that. People family is not talking and people also angry anytime the family does talk through the attorney. Yesterday, 18 minutes into the news conference,

the news conference had not finished yet. I had been in touch with the attorney for the family asking for any statements. So as that news conference was happening, Stephen Bertolino did send me a statement, which I sent my newsroom, which really angered the family. His statement, he basically said that, you know, Brian is currently charged with the unauthorized use of a debit card. And when he's located, we will address

the pending charges. And he said, Gabby's death at such a young age is a tragedy. Gabby's mom infuriated by that texting WFLA that his words are garbage. So people very angry. One month since Brian has been missing, and yes, he was cutting the grass today. The father was. Before everybody jumps in on the panel, I want to go to Karen Stark, a New York psychologist joining us today out of Manhattan. Karen, Gabby is strangled dead. I'm sure they found bruising around her neck. Her high

orbital bone may have been broken. Why is it there's so much outrage, including on my part, that the dad is out, Brian Laundrie's father, not Gabby's dad or her stepdad, Mr. Schmidt, but Brian Laundrie's dad is out cutting the grass. I mean, in the midst of the press or when everything was just hitting the news, he goes out to buy gas to cut the grass. I mean, that would be the last thing on my mind. Why is that so infuriating? It's incredibly infuriating, even to me, because they're not even making, suppose that, look, they're the parents, they care about their son, maybe they really see things through his viewpoint, but they're not even making an attempt to seem like they're sympathetic, that this is horrific news and

people should be mourning, outraged. He's going out and cutting the grass as though nothing is happening. They send all their statements to the lawyer. They don't make an attempt to speak up and say, we're horrified. This is terrible. We lost a daughter-in-law. Nothing like that. So they can't even pretend that this means something to them. And, of course, when anybody hears that, think of that.

It's just no one can understand why they're doing this. It's so cold. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. I remember vividly after my fiance was murdered and I was at home, at our family home. And it was as if it was as quiet as a library. Nobody talked. Nobody wanted to eat. It just went on and on seemingly.

And it was just like a silence had fallen over our whole household. And my parents were just heartbroken that Keith was gone. And he is out, this guy's out cutting the grass. I don't get it. I think you just nailed it, Nancy, because he's given the impression that an HOA violation for his grass is more important than the murder of Gabby Petito. And, again, he's showing everybody what I have said from day one.

He ain't worried about his son. He doesn't think he is out there somewhere hurt. He doesn't think he's harmed himself. He doesn't think that any minute an alligator or something else is going to get him. He's not. And I'm going to point out one more thing. Everybody said, oh, the dad recently joined the search. No, he didn't.

He gave a half-assed tour of nothing. It's a joke. And was out laughing and joking. Laughing and joking. With other people and was photographed laughing and joking. For Pete's sake, at least hide it, man. I want you to take a listen to our cut 310, our friends at WFLA. This is Justin Shepard.

The attorney for the Laundrie family, Stephen Bertolino, told 8 On Your Side, while Brian Laundrie is currently charged with the unauthorized use of a debit card belonging to Gabby, Brian is only considered a person of interest in relation to Gabby Petito's demise. Gabby's mother, Nicole Schmidt, responded saying, his words are garbage. While the coroner has revealed how her daughter died, the FBI is still building its case on who is responsible. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Hold on just a moment. Let me understand this. Straight back out to Masa Saidi joining us from WFLA. That's where we got that sound. Thank you for that, Masa Saidi. Just get his foot and choke on it. All right. Because nobody wants to hear some parsing of words after we just learned this girl's body is decomposing, rotting, rotting. And they can tell from what skin is still apparently left on her body that there is bruising and markings on her neck. I don't know.

Maybe they had to peel her skin back and look at muscular bruising underneath the skin. And the lawyer is saying, now remember, Brian Laundrie is only charged with financial card fraud. Translation, he's using Gabby's debit card so he could get fast food

after she's lying out dead in the Wyoming wilderness. I mean, nobody wants to hear that. Why does he keep talking? Yeah, I mean, that statement certainly angered a lot of people. And he did confirm in that statement, as you just said, that Brian had used the debit card belonging to gabby the documents didn't say that so now we know that

the debit card uh belongs to gabby but yeah this was um what happened to gabby is brutal just subjectively it is a brutal thing that happened to her she was manually strangled and we were found out yesterday she was likely left in the wilderness for three to four weeks before she was found. So she was found on September 19th, the time of death, which we're never going to know the exact time of death. The coroner said that's not going to be listed on the death certificate, but three to four weeks before that, that happened. And the attorney's statement did not, I would say, did not make the Piccito family feel better. Certainly that's safe to say. It made me feel awful.

And I'm certainly not connected to the case in any way. I mean, think about it, Cheryl, the times that we were in court. I don't know if this ever happened to you, but sometimes like at this exact moment, I would just actually feel sick. I feel sick thinking of them just cutting the grass and going and buying gasoline. And this girl, I mean, she's just 22 years old, was left there like that. Maybe they weren't surprised because they already knew how she died. Well, I'm going to make you feel better, I think, a little bit. They have shown no sorrow, no remorse, no care, concern, no urgency.

They haven't helped law enforcement. They have not been transparent. They haven't even been truthful. They are ruining any chance that boy is ever going to have in front of a jury. So I say keep on. Keep doing it. Because Wyoming is a death penalty state. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Because the jury is never going to hear the way the parents behaved. Never. That's going to be irrelevant to the trial. The potential jury is already watching.

They're already watching. They already know. It's done. Yeah, I was about to come to you, Dale Carson. This Bertolino needs to just stop. He needs to stop. He wants attention. Well, he's hurting his client.

I can tell you that much. Keep talking about the debit card. You know, he is eating a Big Mac while she's rotting. Don't remind me of that. That's what he keeps putting in my head. I agree with you entirely. And speaking about the autopsy, you know what this also tells us, that the condition of the body was adequate for them to make that pronouncement that she was throttled.

It tells us that she was probably partly buried. And that's what took so long to find the actual body, why there were no birds involved and things of that nature, because otherwise small animals would have erased that evidence. So it's a good thing that, and of course, burying someone is another clue about having done it intentionally. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our cut 300. This is the Teton County Coroner, Dr. Brent Blue, speaking to our friends at AC360. Gabby Petito's cause of death was manual strangulation slash throttling. Does that mean that, or what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that somebody used their hands or some sort of an object?

Throttling means that someone was strangled by human force. There was no mechanical force involved. People can be strangled by other means, like we have seen people on snowmobiles who run into a wire. That would be strangling by a mechanical event. But this was, we believe this is strangling by a human being. How do you determine that it's a human being? Well, mainly because only humans have opposable thumbs, but there is no evidence that this

was done by any kind of animal as far as the cause of death. No, I mean, you can tell somebody used their hands as opposed to used some other object. You can't necessarily tell that, but when we talk about manual strangling, it's as opposed to something as mechanical as constant. Actually, you can tell. Joe Scott Morgan, you can tell when hands are used to strangle. When there is, as they keep saying, mechanical, which means another object other than the hands,

whether it is a rope, whether it is a pantyhose, whether it's a scarf. You can see the ligature markings on the neck. It's very, very apparent. I mean, let's think, um, um, Epstein, Epstein, you could see ligature marks like rope marks on the neck, right? When you have a manual by hand, you can actually very often see finger marks, but instead of prance, they're bruises. And if you strangle someone looking them in the face, you will see the thumbs, thumb markings right here. If the person's from behind, you'll get the thumb markings on the back of the neck and the finger marks in bruise form on the front.

It's very obvious unless, Joe Scott, the skin had decomposed to the point that the markings were under the skin and on the musculature. Yeah, we're not just going to be looking strictly at the skin externally or even the muscles underlying. There's a couple other things that we're going to consider, Nancy. With the trachea, which is primarily cartilage, you know, next to bone, it's not as hard as bone. It'll actually fracture too. Okay, so you'll have fracture marks in that. And, of course, the infamous hyoid bone that sits way, way up in the neck.

It's kind of shaped like a bird. We describe it as a bird-like bone or bird right under explain it's an interesting bone and this is why it's the only bone in the body that's not connected to another bone just let that sink in for a second it actually anchors the tongue in the back of the throat if everybody will just consider your tongue for a moment and where it is, that's how high up it is in the organs of the neck. And so you have to really reach high. And generally that's not going to happen with a hanging. It happens with manual strangulation. And when he's talking about mechanical Nancy, you went to this point just a second ago, what he's saying is there's no ligature involved with a ligature. You're going to have margins.

You'll have tiny little demarcations like a, we call it a furrow or an abraded area. That doesn't exist. But with a manual throttling, and that's different than a C-clamp where you just grab the trachea, a manual throttling means using both hands. When you reflect the skin and you look at that muscle tissue, you'll actually see broad-r ranging hemorrhage that's consistent. Everybody just look at the palms of your hands. Think about that as contact points. You're pressing against it. And Nancy, let me break it down even further. This is not

just strangulation. He literally, he literally squeezed the life out of her. He not only cut off her air supply, but he also diminished or compromised the vessels, the carotid vessels, the jugular veins, everything that is a return and a supply of oxygenated blood to the brain. And she watched this happen. If he did it from the front, she was eye to eye with him. She's fighting against him, fighting against his force. And remember this, he was never inspected for anything on his face. To Mac's point, he was never inspected by the cops down in Florida. What could that have revealed? Maybe they did nail scrapings. Maybe they came up with something there. But I know that they've lost that opportunity down in Florida. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I want to think about something. I don't want to think about it, but in a murder case, you have to think about it. Think about it. Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum. When she was murdered, this girl, just a couple of years older than my girl, almost the age of your girl, Cheryl McCollum, no further away from her killer than a foot because you know the arms were bent looking at her eye to eye as she died

as she struggled as her eyes filled up with water. As she gasped for air. Eye to eye with her killer. That is cold, Cheryl McCullough. She would have been eye to eye with the person that was going to take a vow to love her forever, to protect her through sickness and in health and richer for poorer. The person she thought she could count on, the person even after he slapped her repeatedly on Main Street, said she didn't want to be away from him for the night.

That's who that person was to her. And he would have seen her eyes change and bulge. He would have heard a death gurgle. He would have seen mucus and foam and different things happen to her right before his eyes. I want you to take a listen. A lot of people are very, very befuddled as to why no further details have been released. We know Gabby was not pregnant at the time she was murdered. But other than that, very little has been released. Take a listen to Hourcut 304. This is again, Dr. Brent Blue speaking. There's more information, but because it's an ongoing investigation, that information is not going to be released. Plus, under the state statutes in Wyoming, the only thing that the coroner is responsible

for releasing is the identification of the body and the manner and cause of death. And everything else is essentially protected. But there are reasons why, for instance, in our investigation, we call this a homicide first and then the cause of death later. And that had a lot to do with certain circumstances and factors that we observed and found in our investigation. Joe Scott, why are they not releasing any further information regarding what was learned by the examination of Gabby Petito's body? Because the primary person of interest, if we're going to continue to use that word, is still on the lam. He's still at loose. He's still at loose. He's still loose. And listen, we, you know, look, this has been said over and over again. We can't trust anything these people are saying.

He's already lawyered up. Why would anybody want to give the lawyer any more information? And this is very specific information to the process of prosecuting a homicide. We're not, we're, they are not going to be feeding them any more information that they can use in order to get around the law or get around any of the forensic evidence that's found or discovered or developed. I understand why they're not releasing any information because it's critical to the case. There's just certain things that we don't need to be privy to right now. It's, you know, it goes to the point where they're looking for laundry. I hate to even say his damn name. They're looking for him. The U.S. Marshals might have specific information, but they're not going to give it to us because they don't want him to get away.

They might have some idea where he is, but they're closing in on him. I have faith they're going to find this guy and they don't want to reveal their hand before before it's time. Also, Cheryl McCollum, there may be facts that we learn from her body, her clothing that only the killer would know. Well, you're absolutely right, because anything that you give to them, anything that you give to them is fodder for their case. And there's things that are very specific to this event. Nancy, this is an intimate, intimate, intimate crime that I still think took place in the back of that van. Hold on, I just lost Joe Scott. I'm trying to get him back. Cheryl, what were you saying?

That wasn't me, but I can piggyback on what Joe Scott said. It absolutely happened in that van. No, no, I'm asking you about why details are not being released, other details. Oh, I think it's the right call. I didn't say it's not the right Oh, I think it's the right call. I didn't say it's not the right call. I think it is the correct call. But what I'm saying is why?

I'm trying to explain why. You know what? I'll Q&A with myself. No, no. The medical examiner is not under any duty to tell the media or anybody else details of that autopsy. The details of that autopsy may reveal facts that only the killer knows. You don't want a bunch of false confessions. You don't want to release information that could be compromised in any way. There are many, many reasons why we say it's an ongoing investigation.

I'm not going to release it. Okay, Dale Carson, jump in. You just absolutely covered it. I mean, the most important thing here is the interview of Brian Landry when he's actually apprehended. And I taught interview interrogation for the FBI for a number of years. And the whole point here is that you want to make sure you don't get a fraudulent confession. So it also protects the defendants or the accused in cases like this. It's critical to the successful prosecution in so many ways that the revelation of those details can ultimately cause that to happen.

Joining me right now, go ahead. I was just coming to you. Masa Saidi is joining me from WFLA. Jump in, everybody. Masa is right there on the scene in Florida. Go ahead, Masa. And I just, you know, I've been emailing back and forth with officials in Teton County trying to get the full autopsy report. And, you know, this is what they're claiming right now. Outside of that federal pressure, all the good reasons you guys are explaining to not release anything more to protect the eventual prosecution. I'm being told that under Wyoming state statute, full autopsy reports are not allowed to be released to the public unless it is court ordered. So they're

telling me I'm going back and forth with them on email right now. You're not going to get anything other than that one piece of paper that was released yesterday, which, by the way, it was dated October 5th. It was filed a week later, but October 5th, they had created that document and they had said it was throttling death by manual strangulation. All the years I prosecuted, I never really thought about the public getting the autopsy report. I would have it and go through it with a fine tooth comb, but I never thought would it be released? You don't want jurors also, potential jurors reading the autopsy report and coming up with their own medical conclusions, which believe me, believe it or not, they will go back in the jury room and try to come up with other conclusions. It happens, believe it or not, all the time. We did learn something else.

Very interesting, very revealing. Take a listen to our cut 301. Again, this is Teton County Coroner, Dr. Brent Blue, speaking to our friends at AC360. You said today, and I'm quoting, this is only one of many deaths around the country of people who are involved in domestic violence, and it's unfortunate that these other deaths do not get as much coverage as this one, unquote.

Your point about coverage is absolutely well taken. There's a lot of people who do not receive this kind of coverage or this kind of interest, frankly, from the public. Your statement, though, also suggests, and I don't know if that's intentional or not, that you determined Gabby Petito's death was the result of domestic violence. Is that an assumption or is that something you're saying based on something you learned?

That's an assumption. That was strictly an assumption. Domestic violence. I guarantee you a doctor, a coroner, a medical examiner is not going to blurt out domestic violence for no reason. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to follow up on something. One of my producer Jackie's theory, and it's not half bad.

Listen to this. Gabby Petito was alive on August 27. Okay, that's the same day as the blowout at the Mary Piglet, I think Mexican restaurant. Could that fight have continued on to her death that evening? Okay, what about it, Cheryl McCollum? You have analyzed the timeline

over and over. I don't think there's any doubt about it, and that's why I've said I can pretty much hitchhike alone on the 29th. I think that was Alibi building by the 30th. He sends the bogus texts to her mom about Yosemite. He's already on the way home to Florida by the 30th in order to arrive by the 1st. There's no question about it. The 27th is critical. My Society, joining me, investigative reporter with WFLA-TV joining us there in Florida.

What is the scene at the Laundrie home right now? Are there any home repairs left to do? The latest we have is that Chris Laundrie came out and rode the lawn and went back in the house. The reporters are still there after this autopsy information was released yesterday. There's now more reporters on that scene. That's the latest of what's happening there. But I did want to mention regarding the date of death, the FBI believes that she died on or before the 30th, according to a news release that was pieced together with the indictment that we read. OK, how are they determining that? We don't know. Karen Stewart

joining me, psychologist joining us out of Manhattan today. Karen, the fact that if Laundrie did this thing, he leaves her body there. We think, well, we know out in the open, we know her body had to be moved moved and that adds to the theory she was murdered inside her own van, her Ford Transit van, and then dragged to that location. But then think about it. He has two full days to cross the country in her car, But he doesn't mind using her debit card to stuff himself with, what, fast food, McDonald's, I don't know. Her debit card. I mean, what frame of mind is that?

Nancy, think about this. They're fighting with each other. They're stuck. They're seen in the restaurant. The anger is getting worse and worse, the fighting between them. This is a guy, really, who is capable of hurting her. We know that, right, of slapping her, of having angry outbursts. And he is a killer, so he has no conscience.

If it was him who killed her, he's looking at her as we talked about. It's extremely personal and intimate the way she's killed. The person doesn't mind seeing her suffer and die right in front of his eyes, right? And then he goes out, he hitchhikes, he's able to talk about giving people money. So he has no conscience. He doesn't care about the fact that he killed the person that he was proposing to, going to marry the love of his life. Guys, take a listen to Hourcut 302. This is again Dr. Brent Wood. I'm very, very surprised that he spoke openly, but he did.

And I'm glad to know what we now know. Speaking to our friends at AC360, take a listen. Dr. Blue, I wanted to ask you about a text that Gabby's mother received from her daughter's phone on August 30th. And if you look at your timeline, her death would have occurred between August 22nd and August 29th. So if this text on August 30th that said there was no service in Yosemite came from Gabby's phone, can you say definitively that Gabby Petito could not have sent that text on August 30th? No, I can't. When we talk about a timeline of death this far out from the death, that timeline could be plus or minus a week at a minimum.

And that is because of different weather conditions and different locations. So it's really very, very rough. It's not like TV where they say, oh, they died on this date. It's a very rough estimate. And I know that law enforcement is using other methods to try to determine a more exact date. But from an autopsy point of view, it's a very rough estimate. Guys, we've got it right there. We kind of figured it out on our own.

Listen, guys, I'm sure you'll jump in and correct me if I'm wrong. Go ahead, the three of you. I'm sure you'll start waving at me. You heard the coroner saying her death occurred between August 22 and August 29. But we know she was spotted alive on August 27 at the Mary Piglet. So now we've got her time of death narrowed between the 27th, that night, and the 29th. Because the coroner is saying the 29th. Did I get that right, Joe Scott Morgan?

Yes, they got into this. You know, she went back in to apologize to the staff at the Mary Piglet. You know, he went in raising his voice and raising cane at the poor waitstaff. They get in the car or that van, and they drive. It's like 31 miles from that point to where that van was sighted. Can you imagine what was going on in the van at that point in time? Like with Karen, you know, there was probably a fight going on. Well, can I tell you, no man, you know, sorry, Joe Scott, no man likes to be asked,

why did you act like that in the restaurant? You big horses rear end. Nobody wants to hear that. And I'm sure it was like pouring gas on the fire. Yeah. I think that it probably was. And they, you know, they apparently have been at each other's throats over this period of time. There's been, there's been problems, you know, any man that would strike a 95 pound woman in the middle of the street in broad daylight, we already have a history of that on main street,

where everybody can see it. So we already know he's comfortable with putting his hands on this poor woman. And I don't mean in a gentle way. So you can only imagine your analogy with gas on fire. Hell yeah. They're driving up the road. They get up there to that campsite. And Lord only knows what happened then. So Cheryl, we've got it now between the night. Was it the night or was it lunchtime? We've got the 27th, Mary Piglet. What? Lunchtime. Okay. And then we've got the coroner giving us the 29th. That's a pretty narrow timeline. As far as I'm concerned. That's a very narrow timeline. You don't even have 72 hours. And if we place him with her during those 72 hours, then what?

A little green man from Mars appeared and he killed Gabby? I mean, can't you see the timeline now becoming very, very small by deduction. Not just that. You've also got his actions. If someone else harmed her, why did he not, A, try to save her and defend her, B, go immediately to the police, C, start screaming for help. All these people that passed by that van, he just shuts the door. He didn't try to flag anybody down.

No help at all. So nobody's going to buy there was a third party at all. And then you have his actions of the bogus text messages, the using her debit card. When was the fake text about no cell service in Yosemite? Was that the 29th? That was the 30th. Okay. Hey, I hear Dale. Jump in, Dale. You know, we're going to know precisely when he left, okay? Because he bought fuel. We are.

And he was using her card to pay for it. So we know he left on the 30th, as Cheryl was saying. And so you do have that very narrow time frame, which makes him the prime suspect, not just a person of interest in this. Hey, Dale. Dale Carson joining me, high-profile lawyer out of Florida. Say that one more time and slow it down, please. Sure. In a circumstance where he's used someone else's credit card in order to travel, we're going to know precisely when and how he left, how he traveled. In addition to which, when we know the narrow time frame is so within two days, essentially, then, of course, he becomes not just a person of interest. He becomes a prime suspect.

Nancy, one more thing to Dale's point, and I think this is essential. When coroners and medical examiner investigators are standing around the table with the cops, information is exchanged. Remember what he said, domestic violence. What Dale is saying also is key. The coroner has an awareness that there is an electronic tracking that's going on with him. I think this is key, particularly with the gassing up issue, using her debit card. They've all been sharing information and talking. He has information going forward.

Now, whether it was just merely a slip of the lip, I have no idea. But he's informed, he's up to speed, and yeah, he's not law enforcement, but he's on the inside of this investigation. Nancy. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Go ahead, Karen Stark. I want to reiterate that it's really significant.

We watched this get worse. We watched it escalate. We could see. I mean, we have all this evidence that they got stopped, that there's the encounter when they go in there and he's screaming and she goes back and apologizes. They are fighting with each other. It is really, really important to see that that keeps escalating over time. It's all time for something to happen.

I got to ask you a question while I've got you, Karen Stark. There are reports now that high school, high schoolers that went to school with Ryan Laundrie state that he was an over, their words, not mine, an overweight social outcast in school. Does that turn you into a bully later? That he's an outcast. So, of course, it shows that he has a lot of resentment and often revenge against the people who, you people who didn't include him. But we also know from their relationship and what the friends had to say that he was extremely jealous. You know, here's this girl, this beautiful girl that's with him. He's jealous. He's controlling. I mean, everything points to somebody who is not your loving spouse of today.

It's just somebody who... I guess also, whether he was... It's hard for me to... Yeah. And that put my thoughts in his mind that maybe he felt like he didn't fit in or he was an outcast or always looking at everybody else having fun or having a girlfriend.

Then he gets Gabby and that jealousy you're talking about. I want to follow up on that. Hold on. I think I hear Masa Sayuri jumping in. Masa, are you there? Yeah. Just a quick point to what you guys just said. I did ask neighbors about the relationship and one woman told me that Gabby

always was really excited to see her kids and would talk with them. And she said that Brian was always in the background and very quiet. And then the only other point that I wanted to make is Dr. Blue's comments regarding domestic violence. If you go back, and I encourage everyone to do this, go back and listen and watch when he made that statement. He made it very slowly. He kept looking up to think the entire time. It wasn't a statement. He blurred it out. Because when I was logging it, I noticed how he was like struggling,

looking for the words to find the words. So even though now he's walking it back, look at how he said that statement. We, just by the power of deduction, have now reduced the time of death to about 48 hours. If Brian Laundrie can be proved, it's proven that he is with her at that time, it's going to be very difficult, very difficult, if not impossible, for him to escape a murder charge.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Combs to her signing off. Goodbye. This is an iHeart Podcast.