Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Legal Heir Alex Murdaugh, Suspect in Wife & Son's Murders Names 'REAL KILLER'

Episode Date: October 18, 2022

Attorneys for disgraced South Carolina lawyer Alex Murdaugh are pointing the finger at Murdaugh's cousin Curtis "Eddie" Smith. In a new court filing, the lawyers say that Smith, who reportedly failed a polygraph, should have been more rigorously investigated as a prime suspect by police. During a polygraph five months ago,  Smith was asked three times about his involvement in the shootings that killed Maggie and Paul Smith. Smith replied, no, to those questions, meaning he was not involved.  Police sources say Smith's answers indicate an attempt at deception. He lied. Smith has said he was “nowhere near” the property when the shootings occurred.        Joining Nancy Grace Today: Jessica Garth - Chief, Special Victims & Family Violence Unit, State's Attorney's Office, Prince George's County, MD Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), PantherMitigation.com, Twitter: @TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology" Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com  Chris Byers - Former Police Chief Johns Creek Georgia,  25 years as Police Officer, Private Investigator and Polygraph Examiner,   www.chrisbyersinvestigationsandpolygraph.com   Anne Emerson - Senior Investigative Reporter, WCIV ABC News 4 (Charleston, SC), Host of Award-Winning Podcast: "Unsolved South Carolina: The Murdaugh Murders, Money and Mystery, Twitter: @AnneTEmerson   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, he just won't go away, will he? I'm talking about legal heir, heir to a multi-million dollar legal dynasty, Alex Murdoch, the one who is now charged in the murder of his wife Maggie and son Paul. Remember him? The one who got shot mysteriously by an unknown assailant on a rural road? Well, now it's out. Alex Murdoch, who has fleeced his clients for millions and millions of dollars, most of it went straight up his nose, he now has revealed what really happened. Guess what really happened? South Carolina legal star Alex

Murdoch claims it was his cousin who murdered his wife and his son. In fact, the same cousin that shot him in the head. Well, my first question would be, well, if your cousin shot you in the head on an old dirt road, then why did you tell police it was an unknown assailant that drove back and forth eyeing you and came back to shoot you? How come you didn't tell them that then? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. You know what I love?

Almost as much as I love putting a bad guy behind bars, I love it when they talk. I love it when they try to lie their way out of the hole they dug themselves. Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go to a special guest joining us, Ann Emerson, Senior Investigative Reporter, WCIV, ABC News in Charleston, and the star of award-winning podcast, Unsolved South Carolina, The Murdoch Murders Money and Mystery. Ann, take a listen to this well this new filing indicates that they believe eddie smith could have had something to do with the murders of murdoch's wife and son and investigators

turned a quote blind eye the court document stops short of blaming smith outright for the crimes but do point to a polygraph test conducted on Smith by a SLED agent in May of this year. Now, Smith reportedly failed this test three times, twice when asked if he shot Maggie and Paul and if he was present when they were. But Smith denied that he was anywhere near the crime scene at the time and had friends at his home the evening of the murders. You were hearing our friends at WCSC and Emerson. What is happening? Because, you know, as soon as Alex Murdoch points to his cousin, which he has now done, he's the, quote, real killer. The cousin is going to come up with an alibi. And now he, Murdoch and his legal team is stuck with this accusation. They're in it now.

They can't get out of it. That's what they've got to go to trial with. Well, this is incredible, Nancy. You know, every time we think we know which way this story is going, it gives us another twist and turn, doesn't it? And with Eddie Smith now being at the bullseye of the whole defense for Alec Murdoch's attorneys. You start seeing the pieces of the puzzle come together for sure. I mean, we have been hearing about this guy ever since the alleged assisted suicide attempt back in Labor Day of 2021. Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. The alleged assisted suicide attempt. Now, let's be clear. What you're talking about is when Alex Murda got shot in the head on the

dirt road. Jackie, can you pull up the sound where he claims it was an unknown assailant in a truck driving by? And remember, Ann, the truck went all the way down the road and then comes back and then shoots him. At that time, he said he didn't know who did it. Remember that? He said he was on this dirt road fixing a flat tire or some problem with his vehicle, which we then found out his vehicle has those tires that never go flat. Anyway, that was a lie. Then he got to the story of assisted suicide. Remember, his story changed several times. At first, it was an unknown assailant. Remember that, Ann? I do remember that. And I remember getting the call. I actually was talking to his lawyer, Jim Griffin, the day that story came out.

And all we knew for a few minutes, at least, was that he was shot, that Alec Murdoch had been shot and he was getting to a hospital. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Ann Emerson, Joe Scott, do you remember when Alex Murdoch came into court after he had been quote, shot in the head with serious brain injury? Oh yeah. I do. He had on a band-aid. He had on a band-aid. The only thing that could have made it worse

if he had an action star like Superman band-aid. He had on a band-aid about this big. A little one. You know when you buy the box Joe Scott, let me finish. You know when you buy the box Joe Scott let me finish you know when you buy the box of assorted band-aids and they've got the really big one that nobody can ever use and then the correct size and they have the little bitty ones it was one like that it was stuck on his head that was the the shot to the head there was no brain injury nothing like that

at all yeah you're right uh I've got a few spon SpongeBob band-aids at my house for my grandbabies and they could have used one of those on there. I was thinking, you know, that he may have, you know, because even Gray's gunshot wounds, you can have an underlying skull fracture and it's a concussive event. How many times have I told you to speak English? Regular people, dummy down for me. Okay, wait, wait, wait. I want, wait, is this the one 911 call where he's shot on the side of the road is that the one you've done wait a minute wait a minute hit it Jackie Hampton County 911 where's your emergency yes um we're on Sakahachi Road and there is a man on the side of the road with his hand all over him he's waving his hands he just laying there waving his hands around

fine he looks fine but it kind of looks like a setup so we didn't stop oh i don't blame you what area soccer hatchery road are you on i don't like it here we're like halfway down did you hear that it looks like a setup that that's what she said and the guy is fine except he's quote laying there waving his hands or standing there. You have more for me, Jackie? I do. Go ahead.

Okay, what's going on? I got a flat tire, and I stopped, and somebody stopped to help me. And when I turned my back, they tried to shoot me. Oh, okay. Were you shot? Yes. But, I mean, Oh, okay. Were you shot? Yes. But, I mean, I'm okay. You shot where?

Where were you shot at? Huh? Did they actually shoot you or they tried to shoot you? They shot me. Okay. Wait, you need EMS? Well, I mean, yes. I can't drive.

Okay. I'm bleeding a lot. What part of your body? I'm not sure. Somewhere on my head. Your head? Somebody just stop for me, ma'am. For 911.

Did you hear that? Okay. Hold on, Joe Scott Morgan. Feel free to jump in and interrupt Dr. Michelle Dup that? Okay. Hold on, Joe Scott Morgan. Feel free to jump in and interrupt Dr. Michelle Dupree. Okay. Because Dr. Dupree joining me from South Carolina, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Really? This is the guy standing by the side of the road, waving his arms, can call 911 and go,

hello, I was changing my tire and someone offered to help me. And then they shot me from behind. He is not, he no more has a brain injury than the man in the moon. He's fine. And now he's saying this is the cousin who shot him and he lied about it. I mean, maybe I have a hearing problem. But Jackie, Sidney, did you hear him say my cousin just shot me in the head? I didn't hear that.

Did anybody? Okay, they're not looking. But I think that in their heart they mean to say no, they didn't hear that. What about it, Dupree? This is crazy. When we heard that, nobody believed it. Not even in the beginning. Did you hear the 911 dispatch, Dr. Dupree? She's like, well, what? She said, can you drive yourself? Fine, basically, is what she was saying.

I mean, who does this, really? And to stop and have a flat tire and him change it? He has a car that you can drive for 50 miles on a flat tire this is crazy okay joe scott jump in because that is not a brain injury and now he's saying the cousin that shot him murdered maggie and paul he's obviously lying yeah i think that he is because the story just keeps flip-flopping and that's one of the things that SLED, the South Carolina Law Enforcement Agency, is looking at in this. Because anytime a suspect begins to change their story over and over, and look, it's not just about this guy this one time. It's about everything else going back in the past relative to this case

that just doesn't match up. And so that's a problem. And that goes to his, I don't know, you attorneys, his veracity, I guess, as a potential victim in this case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me, Jessica Garth, Chief of the Special Victims and Family Violence Unit at Prince George County, Maryland. Jessica, I want you to listen. I've just got to play one more.

And I'm hoping, I'm not getting a really clear description, but that's okay. I'm hoping this is Alex Marnock talking some more on 911. Go ahead. Well, let me get my deputies in that area to see what's going on. Could you give me a description of that male? I'm going to say he's probably in his 40s. Okay. He's not very large, but he's kind of heavy set.

White hair and it's a black some kind of suv like a smaller kia suv or something uh-huh yeah and it stopped where he's at the suv is right where he's at as well he's pulled over on the side of the road there's no damage to the suv the caution lights on okay the trunk of it was open okay all right well let Okay, Jessica Garth, fellow lawyer, you know the prosecutors are just laughing into their fists because there's nothing better than the defendant charged with double murder and so much more pointing to a third party and actually naming them. Now, it's one thing if you say, well, this guy looked like this, you know, heavy set, white male in his 40s driving a Kia.

But then when you actually say it was my cousin. I just love that because then you can get the cousin's alibi and show the defendant is outright lying through his teeth. Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Nancy. I mean, it's great when defendants talk because every time they give an inconsistent story, it's something that we can use in court. And I agree with you 100%. He's basically locking himself into this other theory about his cousin being the killer in this case. So if this goes to trial and he tries to put forth any other you know, thrilled to have an idea of what the defense's theory is going to be. I mean, in this case, you hear a lot about, you know, prosecution by surprise and gotcha prosecution, but, you know, the prosecution has to turn over discovery to the defense. But it's actually the defense, in many cases, who doesn't have to put forward their

theory to the state, to the prosecution. They don't actually have to put on a defense at all. You know, they can just sit there and make the state prove their case. So when you have a defendant and his counsel who's willing to give this much information about what they're going to do, it's a gift. Truly it is. You know, you're right. What a lot of people don't understand, Jessica Garth, is exactly what you just said. Under the rules of evidence that have been interpreted through our Constitution, the state is basically required to hand over its entire file to the defense. You've got to tell them every witness, how to reach the witness, the address, the phone number if you've got it.

You've got to give them all of your scientific evidence, which is the medical examiner, forensics, ballistics, everything. You have to give them all of your scientific reports, what the ballistics said, what the autopsy said, what the fiber evidence said, what the blood evidence said, including addresses and phone numbers for those experts. In many jurisdictions, the defense doesn't have to hand over anything at all to the state. They are supposed to hand over scientific reports and witnesses so the state can read them and prepare a rebuttal at trial for trial. That said, that's just about it. You never have a defendant give you their whole theory to the defense beforehand. It's like you're playing checkers or chess and you tell the other side, well, the first

thing I'm going to do is blah, blah, blah. Then the next thing is blah. And then I'll checkmate. No, that is what is happening right here. It's giving the state a chance to torpedo the defense before they ever have opening statements. Now, speaking of what Jessica Garth just said, joining us out of Prince George's County, take a listen to our cut 102, our friends at WIST. Smith told investigators he had an alibi the night of the crime with three witnesses at his home and that he heard that Paul Murdoch had caught Maggie Murdoch, his mother,

with a groundskeeper she had a reported relationship with and he might be to blame for the murders as well as that groundskeeper. Now the defense team also writes that the state has a weak circumstantial case at this time basing the entirety of it on Murdoch's location at the crime scene within the hour of their deaths and a small amount of Maggie's blood on his shirt when on which they claim transferred when he quote frantically attended his wife's bloody corpse no absolutely not just got Morgan the blood on Alex Murdoch's clothing is not a transfer mark. For instance, if I stab Jackie again and then I go to her and she reaches out and we get a transfer from blood from her to me. Yeah.

A transfer. Like I hug her and I get her blood on my shirt. It's a transfer. That's very different from a high velocity impact spatter. It's like once you're used to it, it's like flipping a light on and off. What's the difference in a high velocity impact spatter, Joe Scott Morgan? Yeah, well, we measure this in velocity. So we've got low, medium, and high.

And with high, that generally, in most cases, originates from a firearm. That means it's going to blow back onto the individual if they're standing over. I tell people, take an aerosol can of hairspray, go to your mirror, and just tap it one time. And that fine little histamine spray that comes out and adheres to that glass, gives you an example of what high velocity looks like it's very tiny it's not a big smear or a swipe or a wipe or a transfer or a drop yes it is not a drop trust me here's a good example remember when travis alexander was stabbed dead about 30 times by jody arias oh yeah before she shot him in the head yes he walked managed walked, managed to somehow, I guess after the first shot, walked to his mirror in his bathroom.

Yep. And looked at himself dying. And blood dropped, we think, from his nose onto the bathroom countertop, right where the sink is. Right. And that one drop is like a little round drop as opposed to a high velocity spray. That's what we're talking about. So, Ann Emerson, what do you make of Alex Murdoch, who has been stealing millions of dollars?

I think we counted up five dead bodies connected to him or his family. Stealing millions and millions of dollars. I think we counted up five dead bodies connected to him or his family. Stealing millions and millions of dollars. I don't know what these judges and the law firm was doing, just sitting with their thumb up their rear end during all this theft from clients. But what do you make now of him claiming, changing his story from an unknown assailant to his cousin did it? Well, he absolutely uh things started circling him pretty quickly as soon as they realized that that that mercedes could have

driven another 50 miles i think that he already knew he was in trouble then and then i think cousin eddie with uh with the story that he came out with i mean he as, he as soon as Alec Murdoch starts going after him and his lawyers start looking at Eddie Smith as the person, Eddie Smith's like, hold on. And he tells me in an interview, I actually went there because he called me.

Okay, wait, wait, wait. Ann Emerson. Guys, Ann Emerson, senior investigative reporter, WCIV, ABC News 4, and she's got this incredible podcast. I've got Unsolved South Carolina, The Murdoch Murders, Money and Mystery. Is that the name of it, Ann? It is. Okay, which is an incredible podcast.

Guys, she actually speaks to the cousin Murdoch is blaming. His name is Curtis Eddie Smith. Okay, that said, I just want everybody to know what we're talking about here. Tell me what happened and don't leave anything out. Well, what happens is when we sit down and talk to Eddie Smith, it's like about a month after this has all come out that now Eddie's being targeted as, you know, that he had gone in for this assisted suicide attempt when Eddie gets to the place what he tells us is that he

sees a desperate man that wants to kill himself and he goes up to him he grabs the gun there's a little bit of a shuffle back and forth and and saves him from getting shot but the the gun goes. And he says that he leaves because Alex says, I'm fine, I'm fine. But he takes the gun with him, and he takes off. He's like, under no circumstances was I there to actually go and help him kill himself. Okay, so wait a minute. Ann, you do know I am not swallowing this hook, line, and sinker. So I'm supposed to believe that out of the blue, the cousin shows up on the road where Alex Murnaug happens to be on this rural road.

And then they have this struggle. Okay, okay, so he calls him. And says, I need you here. Okay, go ahead. I'm skeptical, but go ahead. Well, I mean, I think everybody is. And it's incredibly difficult to nail down who's telling the truth because there's just so many layers of lies that we've been told in this story already.

But, you know, what we learned from Eddie in that interview, what he shared with me, which doesn't, I mean, it makes a lot of sense with all of the the allegations right now um that he saw Alec Murdoch like a brother he was like a brother he said he was like a brother to him and he felt betrayed by the and we were just at the we were not even at where we're at today where he's saying his lawyers are now making these allegations that Eddie Smith was the one that killed Maggie and Paul. We were just at the assisted suicide attempt. for a string of alleged crimes that he was involved with, Alex Murdoch, over almost a decade.

Millions and millions of dollars. For those of you just joining us, South Carolina legal heir, multimillionaire Alex Murdoch has now come out with it. He names the person that he says is the quote real killer of wife Maggie and son Paul, the hitman. And the hitman is his own cousin. He also claims his cousin, Curtis Smith, is the one who shot him, Murdoch, as well. Now, the cousin, Curtis Eddie Smith, claims to have an alibi. What do we know of the alibi, Ann Emerson? Well, according to Eddie Smith, he was at home with buddies.

And the issue is that they're at right now between the defense and the prosecutors. From what I can tell, we're still waiting to hear what the AG's got to say about this. But what we're hearing is that Eddie said that he was, that his girlfriend, Donna Eason, can testify that he was where he was, that he was at home. He's got a couple of buddies. But the concern from the defense attorneys is that they waited so long to reach out to these friends that were supposed to be at the home with Eddie Smith. That there would have been time for Eddie to get to them to say something. Okay, hold on, hold on. The defense claims who waited so long to reach out? SLED.

Well, wait, why should SLED, SLED thinks they've got their man and that's alec murdoch if anybody should reach out to defense witnesses it would be the defense anyway anybody can reach out anybody can make that phone call anybody can show up with a subpoena if you're an officer of the court so don't throw that on the state that they did something wrong bottom line you, you know what? They can all claim they were here, there, or yonder. All they have to do is get their cell phone records and ping out where these people were. Because guess what? Cell phone records show Alex Murdoch was at the scene of the murder at the time of the murder. Guys, in a bombshell breakthrough in the Alex Murdoch was at the scene of the murder at the time of the murder. Guys, in a bombshell breakthrough in the Alex Murdoch case, Murdoch now facing trial for the murder of his wife Maggie and his son Paul,

we're hearing more about what the cousin friend Curtis Smith had to say. He comes up with this crazy theory that Maggie is having an affair with a groundskeeper. Let's play that cut 102 one more time, Jackie. Smith told investigators he had an alibi the night of the crime with three witnesses at his home and that he heard that Paul Murdoch had caught Maggie Murdoch, his mother, with a groundskeeper she had a reported relationship with, and he might be to blame for the murders as well as that groundskeeper. Now, the defense team also writes that the state has a weak circumstantial case at this time, basing the entirety of it on Murdoch's location at the crime scene within the hour of their deaths and a small amount of Maggie's blood on his shirt, which they claim transferred when he, quote, frantically attended his wife's bloody corpse.

Just got Morgan. I don't know that that's exactly how I would describe the cell phone data that places Alex Murdoch at the scene of the murders. No, no, I certainly wouldn't. I think that it's rock solid to tell the truth. You know, when it's pinging and you can triangulate the location of an individual, it's pretty damning evidence as far as I'm concerned. These phones that we carry around with us everywhere nowadays, like a millstone around our neck, they track us everywhere we go. You know, it gives us a position relative to where we are on a daily basis. And also, if the cousin was there, where's his cell phone data as well? So long story short, we don't have to take his word for it because you know, either him, the cousin, or he, the cousin, or one of the three alibi witnesses are going to

have their cell phones and they're going to show where they were at the time of the murder. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Chris Byers, joining us, former police chief, Johns Creek, 25 years on the force, now private investigator and polygrapher. You can find him at Chris Byers Investigations and Polygraphy. Chris, take a listen to our cut 104. Attorneys Dick Harpool and Jim Griffin have filed a motion seeking evidence which could indicate a potential co-conspirator in this crime, particularly Curtis Eddie Smith. According to the motion and according to law enforcement sources who have independently verified this information to Fitznews, Smith was given a polygraph examination in connection with this investigation,

specifically asked whether or not he had anything to do with the murders of Maggie Murdoch and Paul Murdoch, which again, Alec Murdoch is facing two murder charges in connection with their deaths. According to my sources, yes, Smith was administered a polygraph. Yes, Smith did fail that polygraph. And one of my sources in law enforcement said he failed it, quote, badly, end quote. That was Will Folks, the founder of Fit News. Okay, Chris Byers. Yeah, he probably did fail a polygraph. I'm talking about the cousin. But who knows what he was really lying about. He could have been lying about being high on dope. He could have been lying about selling meth or whatever it was he had. He could have been lying about having an

affair with somebody. He could have been lying about anything. That's like me dragging Sidney in, strapping up to a polygraph, and I say, did you commit the murder, amongst other questions? And she says, no. And she fails the polygraph. Well, she may have failed the polygraph because I also asked her, did you get drunk as a skunk this weekend? And she said, no, that could have been why she failed the polygraph. I don't know why she failed the polygraph, but I do know I trust those pings of the cell phones of Curtis Edward Smith and his three friends the night of the murders. And the pings on Murdoch's phone show him there at the scene of the double murder of his wife and his son. And he has high velocity human matter, blood on his clothes that you only get if you're 36 inches or less from the shooting.

That's what I know. So tell me about him, the new suspect. I'll just call him that. Curtis Edwards Smith, the cousin. Tell me about him failing his poly. Well, first of all, the picture that the defense has put out is the proof of him failing the polygraph shows absolutely nothing. You would have to see the polygraph report that the captain from SLED did. And it's all about polygraph is all about that pretest interview and getting the questions exactly right

and making sure that the person that you are about to conduct the test on understands the questions properly. But I've seen nothing in what the defense has put out to prove that, to show that. Again, really have to see the polygraph report that the captain did. But that picture is absolutely garbage. You know, not everybody is seeing the picture, Chris Byers. Explain. So they've got an

exploded picture um of the polygraph examiner the polygraph going on and they're showing this one huge what they're calling a response so you've got the line going across horizontal and they've got this vertical line that they're claiming is a response but in looking at it first of all there's the lines that are running vertical is showing when the examiner's asking a question and the response that they're talking about is coming before the question bar is even there and it's a it's a they're saying it's a crazy response and it is a crazy response and that normally means some type of interference like that they moved or something else it it's your responses.

You have to look at the reason you do like two and three different charts. You have to compare each of the charts and make sure that they're all similar. And one is not just huge and doesn't look like the rest of them. And you can even see on this chart, I'm assuming this line that they're showing is the electrodermal activity plates. And right underneath it is the heart rate. And you've got the EDA response going up and the heart rate going down. They should be going in the same direction together. So this picture means absolutely nothing. It's all about what the captain put in his report and which questions that he hit on. One of the newscasts that you played earlier said that he failed it three times. There's no such thing.

There's either deception indicated or no deception indicated. That's the only way the captain would have scored the charge. So what do you make of what the defense is claiming about this, Polly? I would really have to know exactly how. I mean, the questions that they're showing in the news report that I have, did you shoot either of those people at the property on Moselle Road? And were you present with either of the people that shot at the property on Moselle Road? Those are, that is a direct question.

And then there's the evidence connecting question. He could have failed it because he maybe knew or suspected anything. He had any type of knowledge. And it's all about reading that report and seeing how the investigator did the pre-test, how he got the physiological responses, how he really set that question set. I'm not even sure what type,

if he did a probable lie or a directed lie. It's all about, you've got to see it all. You know, you're an expert in this. Everybody else, including myself, is not. But I do know this. Number one, polygraphs are not allowed in a criminal case unless both parties stipulate before the polygraph that it will come into evidence.

Number one. Number two, whenever I would be presented with a polygraph by a defense attorney going, my guy didn't do whenever I would be presented with a polygraph by a defense attorney going, my guy didn't do it. Look, he passed the polygraph. I'm like, okay, let's take a look at it. Who gave the polygraph? Is it somebody you hired or is it an independent polygrapher? Is it someone the state uses? Or is it your cousin, the polygrapher down the street? Also, I want to see the questions. Which question do I see disturbance? That's what I call it. When you get a differently, think of those machines beside your

bed at the hospital and they show your heartbeat and they show your blood pressure and your breathing. If suddenly one of those squiggly lines starts going haywire, that's what I'm looking for on a polygraph. And when you're talking about the questions, the question would have to be something like, were you at the scene of the crime when Maggie Murdoch was shot? Did you pull the trigger and kill Maggie Murdoch? Not, were you involved? Because as you said, Chris Byers, involvement could be, he told me about it after I covered up for him. I lied about it. You know,

it could be any sort of involvement. And when you say no, then you get a bad polygraph. So you want to see the questions and the lead up to the questions, right? It's all about that pre-test interview. I've always said polygraph is as good or bad as the examiner. And I will say that the SLED investigators and examiners, I've been to conferences, trained with those guys, and they're excellent at what they do. But yeah, it's all about the questions. It's just like you said, did you, you can't even reference, did you kill someone? Because you have to get into their mind and they can think, well, hey, I shot him four times, but I don't know if they were dead or not. You have to, the questions

have to be, did you hold the gun that shot? I mean, that's why those are, the questions are so important and you can just miss it by just a little bit and give them any type of excuse in their mind and they're going to pass. That's what's going to hit on that question. They're going to pass. Yep. You're right. It's all about the question, the phraseology, and the lead up, which leads me to Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Hey, anybody on the panel, if you suddenly have a thought about what we're talking about, for Pete's sake, jump in. I mean, you are the brain trust. Dr. Sherry Schwartz is joining us, forensic psychologist specializing in capital cases like this.

She's at PantherMitigation.com. She wrote Criminal Behavior, and she also wrote Where Law and psychology intersect issues in legal psychology. And boy, do we need you, Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Dr. Sherry, how is it? Now, my husband will say this is his excuse. A rat on a sinking ship will jump onto anything. They'll grab a hold of anything and you'll all go down. I was about to say, why do people tell fantastical lies to get out of trouble? And it's obviously a lie. And I'm not saying Curtis Eddie Smith is an angel because he ain't. He is far from it. But is Murdoch so arrogant that he thinks SLED won't check out his cousin's alibi for the time of the shootings?

Well, I never met Alex Murdoch, so I don't know for sure. That's good for you. Good on you. It certainly seems like the evidence points toward this idea that he's untouchable because the Murdoch family has really been untouchable in many ways through for I think 100 years ish or something when the law firm was originally established. So they're quite powerful in that area. And you're right, Eddie Smith is no angel. But wait a minute, Dr. Sherry Schwartz. That's what I would always argue to juries. Yeah, this witness is no angel. But who do you think the

defendant's hanging around with? Nuns and priests and virgins? H-E-L-L-N-O. He's hanging around with this guy right here. So that's the witness. Get out there and start testifying. Bottom line, I don't expect him to be an angel, right? Right about murdoch and his story does he think we're not going to check it out he probably doesn't really think that far ahead because really in his life he's never really had to justify any of his actions right he i'm imagining that the Murdoch name carries a lot of power. And so it's just a matter of Murdoch said it, so it must be true. And let's just go on about our day. And to answer your question about why do people try to get out of trouble?

Well, I mean, he's got a lot to lose, especially in this case, because he's looking at possibly the death penalty and if not decades in prison. Well and also. Go ahead Ann I was going to ask you about that cell phone video that's taken at the time of the shooting but we'll circle back jump in. Oh okay now I'm just going to say like once again like just talking about the psychology of this case I mean Eddie Smith very much said that this this uh that Alec Murdoch was incredibly close to him, that he felt an allegiance to him, that he would do anything for him. He basically said this in the interview with me. So this is a person who obviously looked to Alec as someone he was very close to. And I don't think you can ignore it when somebody tells you something, you have to believe them to that degree when they're just talking about somebody. So if that's the case,

then you have somebody who already has already shown an enormous amount of allegiance in these allegations of different crimes that the state's going after Carter Setti Smith for. Everything from his involvement in drug deals, allegedly to his involvement in money laundering for Alec Murdoch. So there's that. But now one thing that I think is really interesting here is that they keep on, the defense attorneys for Alec Murdoch keep on going back to what they don't feel like they're getting. They feel like they've keyed on Alec the whole time.

That's something that they really talked about and harped on in this motion to compel. They said that SLED didn't properly investigate other possible suspects because they want to use Eddie Smith against Alec Murdoch. And they feel like that. So to me, that was a really interesting part of this motion to compel is that they want more DNA and gunshot residue analysis of Maggie and Paul's clothes. And if that analysis doesn't exist, is a defense argument that SLED isn't properly investigating other suspects that they were always looking at Alex. So to me, that was an interesting outcome. I think somebody else is jumping in. Go ahead.

This is Doc. It's also very interesting that right at the time of the two murders, the law enforcement came out almost immediately and said that the community didn't have anything to worry about. And so to me, that says that, you know, they have an idea of what's going on anyway. I mean, certainly they have to investigate, but that was, I think, very unusual. They knew from the onset that this was a targeted attack. You're right. And Emerson, what can you tell me about cell phone video taken just before the shooting? This is a huge revelation that we were hearing about a few months ago.

In another twist, there was cell phone video that was on Paul's phone. And supposedly he was taking some videos of a dog that he was keeping at the kennels. And he was there and there are two very different accounts of what that video shows as far as the mood and the feeling behind the people that were in that video. You're supposed to be able to see and hear, you're able to hear Alec and Maggie and Paul talking from what I understand and you know that what the defense argues is that that was not an angry conversation. Who cares? It places him, Alex Murdoch, at the crime scene, at the double murder,

with the two victims, just the three of them, at the time of the murders. That's the significance. I don't care if they were arguing or not arguing. He's there at the scene. And that's what they've got to get to. That's what they've got to get to is exactly when those murders occurred and whether or not that video actually is within that time frame. That is what the defense is going to try and poke holes into saying that that was not that that doesn't show the exact time. But you're right. I mean, that's what they're going to keep on arguing. Well, I guess now we know who really did it.

According to Alex Murdoch, sitting in jail on double murder and so much more, it was his cousin. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.