Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Live from CrimeCon: Little Abby & Libby's families beg for your help after girls' murders at Delphi Bridge

Episode Date: May 9, 2018

The man who killed 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German on a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana, in February 2017 is still unknown and free despite a grainy photo of him. Nancy Grace talked to Libby’s grandparents, Mike and Becky Patty, and Abby’s mother Anna Williams in this episode recorded live at CrimeCon. They are joined by forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Private Investigator Vincent Hill, Juvenile Judge & Lawyer Ashley Willcott, and lawyer Renee Rockwell. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, assembling the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, channel 132. Hello, everybody. We are live here at CrimeCon in Nashville, Tennessee,

where we are all assembled 3,000 strong in our pursuit to stop crime. Right now, we go to Delphi. Delphi, now known because of the deaths of two little girls. A tiny town of no more than 3,000 people still in shock after Liberty and Abigail are found dead. It's been well over a year. And still, even though the little girl's killer is caught on camera when the girl snapped his picture on that trestle bridge, we have his voice. We possibly have his DNA, but still no arrest. Why?

Struggling to understand, struggling to make sense of it all are Liberty and Abby's families who are with us now here at CrimeCon. I want to go straight to our guests with me, our Liberty's grandparents, Mike and Becky Patty, and Abby's mother, Anna Williams. Anna. So did she go? Did you take her to the park to meet up? Yeah, I picked Libby up and we'd take her. What time of the day was it?

The day before? Oh, it was kind of like the weather out here. It was not the nicest day. It was kind of windy and overcast. It was probably about 1.30 or 2 o'clock. So still daylight? Oh, yeah. Then what happened?

So we'd gone to the house and gathered up our things, and I dropped them off. And she spent the night. And I worked two jobs at that time, so I was finishing up my shift at the nursing home. And she had texted me and said, is it okay if I stay for dinner? And this is like at 1230, and I said, well, that's fine. And this was at your house? Yeah, she was at their house. And I said, well, that's fine, but I have to be at my other job at 4. So if you can't stay until 8, and somebody can't, you know, it's going to be one of those deals.

Either you stay until I can get off of work, or if, you know, Kelsey's come back to town or they want to get rid of you, they'll have to drop you off at the house because I can't get you. And she said, it's gonna be one of those deals either you stay until I can get off of work or you know Kelsey's come back to town or they're you know want to get rid of you they'll have to drop you off at the house because I can't get you and she said it's fine so I said okay I will see you after oh I know that when the parent can't come I go oh I'll take I'll drop him home I'm happy to okay I'll take him home so so you were at work. Yeah. Did you go pick them up? No. No. Okay.

She was still at the house. I was at my bartending time. Next job. Gotcha. So now I've got them at your place, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Were both of you there?

Guys, I'm now speaking. That was Abby's mom, Anna, and now I'm speaking to Matt Mike and Becky what happened tell me that day from the time they got there for dinner well they went upstairs of course Abby come bringing in a big oak tote of of paint paint yeah they were gonna paint uh of course Libby's room wasn't nearly as organized as Abby's. Her stuff's everywhere. It still is. You walk through, and you find some paint here, and you find some paint there,

and all of her other stuff. So they went upstairs, and they've, of course, you know how kids do. They take lots of selfies and videos. So we know what they were doing that night because Libby did some videos and of Abby they're painting and and we there is there is a canvas there of where they started a new painting said chocolate imagine that I can't remember like it would there was something wrong with one of the letters it was it. So they were up in the room doing their thing.

And, of course, they were up half the night, girl stuff, girls talking and whatever. And they slept. And then the next morning was Monday, and we had a snow makeup day where the weather was so good that year. Okay, see, that means something to me, a snow makeup day where the weather was so good that year. Okay, see that means something to me. A snow makeup day. So, okay, what did they do the next morning? They slept in. They slept in and they got up, I don't know, it was 9 30, 10 o'clock and they had pancakes for breakfast, brunch. And they came out and said, we want something to do. Well, my office is at home. The dreaded words, what can we do now?

And that was Libby all the time. If she had to sit still for five minutes, were you going to do something this weekend? Are we going to, you know, what are we doing? What's plans? So we were quite busy with her. And I said, you know what, I got some files that need to be filed.

Do you want to make some money? But they were out there working away, and especially if you said I'll take you shopping. You know, you do this for me, I'll take you shopping. So they were out there, and Kelsey, Libby's sister, came out and said, hey, I'm going to stop by a friend's house for a little bit, and then I have to be at work at 4. Libby, that's all it took.

She jumped up and said, hey, because it was a beautiful day. Hey, action. Drop us off at. And I said, well, what about this filing? We'll do it later. I promise. We'll do it later. And so I said, well, that's fine. She said, can Kelsey drop us

off at the trails? And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy. You're going to have to get a ride home. Now, what are the trails? We have around our town, we have a trail. It's a community trail system that there's, what, eight or nine miles worth of trails that just goes clear around our town, all the way around. And they had just opened up this section of the trails not too long, a couple years, because they put a new road in. Yeah. And they put a historic bridge across the road. You had no reason to think. Oh, there was people out there that morning and that day.

Like jogging and all that? There's some that jog, but there was a lot of kids out. The trails is what our kids do. There's not a lot to do in Delphi, so you go walk and bike the trails. Out there, that bridge, what people don't realize, so many families have had their pictures taken out there.

It looks like a place you could see a wedding photo done on the bridge. You know how you do those scenic photos? It's not just in the church anymore. And it's very pretty, and it looks out over a river. It's a creek. Ah, a creek. So my son was out running some errands,

and so Libby's dad, and she called him and said, Hey, if Kelsey takes us to the trails, will you pick us up? He said, well, I'll be another hour, so I'll pick you up on my way back through. So one hour. So it wasn't going to be that long. We knew it wasn't going to be that long, and it was nice. It was nice. One hour, right?

Well, not for sure. He said about an hour, so, you know, I'm not going to be. Well, not for sure. He said about an hour or so. Yeah. I'm not going to be that long. So Kelsey took them and dropped them off. It's just getting me so upset because, and I've even done it. Okay, they'll be okay for 30 minutes. It's just 30 minutes. What could be possible? I'll run to Kroger and I'll come back.

It's 30 minutes. And then I'm nut up the whole time. So an hour and a half. That was it. So they go. What's your last memory of her? She was standing at the door of the office with this smile that she has. And I said, it could be a little chilly out there.

You get a jacket. She said, Grandma. I said, I told you, get a jacket. She just looked at me and smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, Grandma. And she turned around and walked out. My last memories of her standing at my office door telling me it's okay. I'm not going to get cold.

So that's my last memory. What is your last memory? Dropping her off at their house with their paints. And it wasn't until later on when we got to the sheriff's department and actually saw the Snapchat picture, but that's the last picture I have. That is the last visual I have of my little girl. It's on that bridge. You know, I think about that so often. I think about Abby and Liberty. When I drop the children at school, I watch them walk in, because of Kyron Horman, the little boy in the Pacific

Northwest that the stepmother dropped him off. I watch them walk in almost to the door, and I think about it every morning. And, you know, Renee Rockwell, defense lawyer, you've told me a hundred times about the last time. Remember, you saw your ex, and he had put the laundry in, and it all turned pink. Remember? Do you remember that? Yes, I still have the pink towels. And so when people are confused about the last time they see someone or the last thing they, I know right then,

because I remember the last time I saw my fiance. He had come to Macon. He was living in Athens, Georgia, and spent the weekend with me and my family, and we got up at like 5 o'clock that morning, and he left to get to work, and he drove off in a white Le Mans, and he tooted the horn and held his hand up. And I watched him go out of sight, and that's the last time I ever saw him. And I thought about it and dreamed about it so many times. When was the next time?

What was the next thing you heard? Tell me from your point of view. Well, again, these times are going to be close because we've been scrutinized on many times. I mean, it's all approximations. Again, they were probably dropped off around 1.30 timeframe. Derek called them about a quarter after 3. Now, who's that?

Derek is the dad who's going to pick them up. Yep. So about a quarter after 3. Now, who's that? Derek is the dad who's going to pick them up. Yep. So about a quarter after 3, he calls them, no answer, to tell them, hey, I'm just about there. Come pick me up, you know, or come to the car. And continues to call. So he's there. He gets there. He's pulling up.

Yeah, yes, pulling up at this what we call trailhead you know a little little area to park so said he got out and was walking you know trying to text him and about 3 30 or so like called becky and said hey i can't get a hold of libby she's not answering give her a call and so she tried calling and then uh the aunt all right our daughter tara tried calling so everybody's texting and calling and and she's not returning. That's way out of character. I mean, you know, kids, they have their phone, and that is their, that's it. And so Becky called me probably about a quarter till 4, so I wasn't at work in Lafayette, and said, hey, Libby's not answering, something's wrong, we're heading out there, it just doesn't seem right.

I said, okay, I'll head that way, just thinking, okay. First thing that goes, they've hooked up with some boys, they're not answering their phone because they don't want to get caught. And then so by 4 o'clock most of the family is there. Anna has been trying to get a hold of her. She's at work. I show up there probably about 4.30, the time I get out of work. At the trailhead.

At the trailhead. And, of course, I jump out, and I'm starting to look. She leaves at that time to go find Anna. Like, hey, we need, you know, everybody's... Let me ask you all a question. How many times have you been at a store or you're somewhere, and you don't see your child? It happened to me once, and I'll never forget it.

And you've heard me tell this story. It was at a Baby's or Us, and some mother had guilted me out because she made her own organic sunscreen. I'm like... So I'm there trying to find organic sunscreen because I was visualizing like a witch over a pot me trying to cook some up.

And so I bent down, and they had the, like at Lowe's or something, they have the shelves all the way up. So I'm down on the floor looking at the bottom trying to find organic sunscreen. And I stand up, and they're only, Renee, what were they, like three? And they were wearing those little Crocs, which are silent. And I turn around, there's Lucy and no John David. And I had practiced all kind of emergency procedures. I grabbed Lucy like a football and started screaming, screaming, lock the doors. And it's that moment you turn around and they're not there.

I'm getting chills remembering it. When did it hit you? Something is wrong I think we all realize once you wouldn't answer her phone after the third or fourth call from everybody in the text when I got there again after four

like okay maybe they dropped their phone you know what I mean because there was water there a creek and they can't, you know. Did they both have a phone? No, Abby did not. Abby did not have, mine don't have a phone yet either. So Liberty had the phone. Yes.

See, that's what people do, that's what I do. I think of every possible thing that could happen, maybe they dropped it in the water. Okay. Yes, so we figure, okay, they're bad or they're lost. You know what I mean? They just wandered off the trail system. Cell phone service is not great out through there. I mean, patchy at best.

You get certain areas and if they were wandering around off the trail, then it's a possibility. So you're all three there at this point? I did not. No, I actually met them. She finally got a hold of me. We missed each other's phone calls because I didn't even have that name in this new phone that I had. And I was like, finally, I'm like, you know, what's up?

She said, we're headed to the sheriff's department. The girls are going to walk this afternoon. And I was like, all right, all right. Let me close out a couple of things. I'll be there in just a few minutes. And hollered to one of the girls in the back. At that time, did you really think anything was wrong? No, because unfortunately those girls had been in the school pool

watching Kelsey practice, and they didn't have cell phone service, and it was I'm going to stay with Liberty until the game, and then Abby was supposed to meet me for some money, and she hadn't. So it had happened before that you couldn't reach her? Well, not so much. They were right there at the school. They just didn't have service. But, I mean, I thought, okay, plans have changed. And then I'd gotten a message from Libby

saying Abby is with me. And I was like, this is probably another one of those things. Yes, it's been a few hours, but I'm sure there's a logical explanation. See, I'm just the exact opposite. 30 minutes and I'm losing. I'm calling 911. Well, they were 13 and 14. Exactly. Mine are still just 10, so they haven't they don't know what all they can get away with yet. When did you realize something was not right at all? Well, our whole family was out there looking. We all left.

Tara, my daughter, went straight over there. Derek was there. My other son come pulling in as I was leaving, and he said, what are you doing? I said, we're going to go look for the girls. So he jumped in the car with me. We drove, if they would have decided to walk home, we drove both directions that they would have gone, both routes. We got there.

We had six cars there. We were taking over everything. We split up. We walked all the trails. Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge. They went across and up to the road and up to the houses up there. Were the sheriffs there yet? Not yet.

By this time, it was a little after 5. Was it getting dark yet? Not yet, it wasn't. But I knew it was going. And I was on the phone most of the time with AT&T trying to get them to ping her phone. And they won't do it. I was I was just gonna ask will they do that I don't think they'll just do it when you ask no not right off of that no I was arguing I kept telling that she's lost oh and I know well we can't well

they said well you can get this one app great well okay well it ping your phone well you gotta put it on her. I don't have her phone. So, you know, it was. Isn't it funny with the things that stick in your mind about what was happening at that time? So you're there. You think at this point, everything's probably just confusion. You guys are there trying to, on foot, trying to find them. When did you call in the cops? It was about, it was about 20 after five. He'd come walking up on the trails, and I said, I'm not getting anywhere here. It's going to get dark. It's going to get dark here pretty soon, about by 6 or so. I said, we've got to call the police. We've got to get them looking for them before dark. Vincent, at that point, what should police do first? Well, Nancy, they

probably should have come out with an Amber Alert at that point. I mean, it had been several hours. Well, don't you have to have a car tag to do an Amber Alert? Yeah, you do, but there's other things you could do as well. That's not really helping me. But I hear you in a perfect world, yes. But these girls have been missing for several hours, right, by this point? Yeah, but whatever. They really, I mean, they called again a quarter after three is when we were going to pick them up. And at 520, I made the call to the police. It wasn't several hours.

It was a couple hours. The police immediately came out there and dispatched and were on the scene, you know, were in the area walking. I guess the only thing they could have done was bring dogs at that time because they didn't have a car to do an Amber Alert. And most places don't have, like, a missing kid alert, I don't think. Yeah, and the problem with the dogs at that point, did they really have a missing person? When police first show up, they don't consider that a missing person without the investigation first. You know, and I get it. I am part of the justice system, but I have a problem with that, when time is critical. So let me ask you this. Y'all stay out there to what time that night trying to find them?

Well, it was really a very hectic night, obviously. After calling the police, then we rallied back at the county police station. Oh, man, how bad did you hate to leave that park? Oh, I was there several times throughout the night. We were running around town, driving around town. You know, the police were trying to you know look at uh they were trying to ping her phone and i think they did end up getting some ping i really said i didn't know that yeah yeah i don't know how accurate it was but it was earlier during the day like anna said we have some sketchy phone service you know you can drive a half a mile into another tower and then it falls off but uh, you know, we spent, there was a coordinated search that started,

I mean, people started coming out in groves. It was. I mean, like volunteers? Oh, all over the town. It was crazy that our local fire department, they were coordinating things, putting search parties together. People were, you drive, we were driving everywhere. I'm checking every place you think.

Okay, any of the parks that are there, you know, up at the school, driving back out there to that area, yelling, hollering. And you drive through town after it started getting dark, of course, and flashlights were all over the place. As the light, as the dark started setting in, what went through your mind, if anything? It's late and it's cold. I mean, even maybe not so much here, but in Indiana,

it'll go from an 80-degree day down to 35 degrees at night, and only one of the girls had a sweatshirt on. I don't know why Abby put one on as opposed to Libby. Apparently she listened to you when she said y'all need a jacket. So that was the whole thing is they're not wearing clothes if they're outside. Is hypothermia a serious issue? Not yet unless they've been in the water. Did you know about a recent law that could leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the internet has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches expose private

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If your personal info appears for sale on the dark web, you'll be the first to know. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. When did they call you and let you know? How did you find out that they had found the girls? We were out searching. They had gridded out a lot of the area. Was it that night? No, it was the next day. It was the next day.

The police called off the search about midnight. I can't even imagine that night you had. Well, like she said, the police uh just for safety i mean we were searching all over the whole area literally probably hundreds of people at this time were out searching i went back to of course we'd been out searching we all were and went back to the fire station with with the volunteers that were there and uh it was probably around 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and they kind of called off the official. I don't know exactly what time, so don't hold me to that,

but they called off the official search, you know, and said, okay, let's resume in the morning. But the volunteers said no, and they all rallied and said, all right, let's go back out there. We're going to light up these creek banks. We're going to walk this creek. I mean, but was there enough water for them to have up these creek banks. We're going to walk this creek. Was there enough water for them to have drowned in it?

Yeah. It doesn't take much water. There's spots in Deer Creek. It's not a real deep creek. I used to fish it when I was a kid. So you guys were still out there through the night. When did they tell you they had found the girls? Well, that wasn't until the next day. I'm just one people realize there was people searching all night long

I don't think I went home until 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning But there's people said Mike we're gonna stay out here all night We'll see you in the morning, but for a validation point one of the reasons why they said is we are bringing in dogs from Kentucky So the fewer people that we have out on that specific area. So the next day there was a restriction to the last path because of that. We had been both sent to our homes to get clothes that the girls had worn. The biggest thing was let's not confuse these animals anymore by all of these people crisscrossing. It's just a thing. So there was some reasoning that was good for the fact that the dogs were coming in and that is a protocol.

So what time did they let you know the next day they had found the girls? I think we were, we all were at various points. I'd actually gotten in a canoe and floated down the creek for probably a half a mile. I'd just gotten out, gotten back to the fire station. Becky was, they were doing a very coordinated search, and that's how they worked it starting the next morning, where hundreds and hundreds of people were showing up, and they would send out groups with some sort of law official, whether it was somebody from the fire station,

because you can't just trespass on people's property, you know, if you do it correctly. Yeah, I remember that there was a search warrant executed on the person's home and property right near where the girls were found. Everybody immediately thought, wow, that must be the person, the perp, but not necessarily. That's just where were you when you learned that? I was searching. We were all in different, we were all split up because, well, he was in a canoe. I was in a group that wasn't even close at the time, but a friend of ours was with one of the groups that found them,

and his wife was with us, and he called her. They told me that they found him, but that's all they would tell me at that time. Did you ask any questions? Oh, I jumped in a car and... Did you think they were alive? They wouldn't... Did you ask them?

I went telling... I just asked them to take me to them. I said they found him. I wasn't them to take me to him. I said, they found him. I wasn't even asking how they found him. I just said, Libby needs me. You need to take me to her now. The thing of it is, we had found out before some of the officials that were at the trailhead, they kept saying, no, they hadn't, no, they hadn't.

I said, yeah, they had nice yeah they found him they found him so they didn't officially call us in until later but we knew I we knew before we were officially told you knew what we had friends and that were in the search party that found them. So they called you and said we found them. The wife called you and said we found them. She didn't call me. She called somebody. No, the husband was with one of the groups. The wife was with you.

The wife was in my group, and he called her. But they wouldn't tell me anything. All they would tell me was they found her. They found them. So you race, you all converge, and what happens? I was actually already at the fire department. My dad was coming back from Michigan. I don't know why I waited.

I don't know that I waited so long to call, but much like the day that I had to call him to tell him I was expecting Abby and I was not married, I'm sitting there, and my best friend, she's like, you really need to call your dad and let him know he's no more than gotten home from this weekend with Abby he's back in Michigan it is 4 in the morning he's getting up for work she's like

just call him and tell him and I remember the first thing he said was why didn't you call me sooner I said because I thought we'd find him earlier so I'm waiting at the fire department for him to get there and he had gotten there just an hour prior. So he's asking questions. He's telling them where they stayed for the weekend,

who they talked to, all those things. And I was on the phone with somebody from out of town that had lived there. And he knew the area. He said, how high is the water right now? And I was like, well, not that bad. And I turned around and there was a quad that had pulled up. And I was like, hey, how high is the water? And this yell screamed at me.

She's like, not right now. And I'm like, all right, okay, nevermind. And all of a sudden the pastor comes walking towards me and he starts talking and I'm like, hey, hey, I, I gotta go. And he said, okay. And I hung up the phone and he said, has anybody talked to you in the last few minutes or come up to you? And I said, no. He says, we need to go upstairs. Okay. I didn't have to hear anything past that. I knew if there was something good, I wouldn't have heard it quite that way. We know at that juncture a photo emerged of a white male walking across the bridge at Delphi. And I remember thinking, where did this photo come from? How do we have the

photo? There's no security surveillance video of photos on the bridge. And I thought, is is this from the girls' bones? The girls were found. They'd been killed. Not far from the bridge. Just, what, a thousand feet? If that. Down, like you would go over the bridge, and then you're on land, and then go down to where the water was.

And it was amazing to me that they were not found sooner. Not that it would have made difference, but there may have been more forensic clues if they had been found sooner. I don't know for sure that that's true, but that is where they were found. And then a search of the girl of the one phone revealed that she had the wherewithal. She got this guy's voice

telling them to go down, essentially. And I keep wondering, what did he have that made the girls obey him? Did he have a gun? Did he have a knife? Why didn't they run? Maybe they're conditioned like my children are to do what adults tell them to do. I don't know why they went down there. But that is where they were found, and that is where the investigation begins. And this is the stopper. They've got the guy's photo. They've got his voice.

They can time exactly when this happened. But still, no perpetrator. Let me just ask generally, is there any of the perpetrator's DNA at all in any way? We've never been officially told or until, much like Jerry Holman said yesterday, they've never specified one way or the other. They came to our homes, took all of our DNA as they should, because they said we need to know who belongs in the house,

who has stuff on them that belongs there. You wash your clothes in the same washer and dryer. You sit on the same couches. You have people come over. I mean, they didn't ask for. Is there any unknown male DNA? They have never told us one way or the other. male DNA. Be it skin cells, be it saliva, be it sperm,

be it anything. Do you know if there's any male DNA there? I think that's something that's the investigators know. That's information that's pertinent to the case. And I hate to use this term, but to protect the integrity of the investigation, that doesn't need to get out. Agree. And this is our-

The reason I'm asking is because of Golden State Killer, which was a major advancement. And I've been wondering about that in the past, but you all know the Golden State Killer, who we know murdered at least 12, raped many more, 121 home burglaries at least, 50 rape victims at least. DNA was found. And finally, they thought, ding, ding, and they plugged it into, for instance, Ancestry.com, and it got familial DNA matches to another male relative.

They go to him. They rule him out. Then they figure out it's D'Angelo, and they get the Golden State Killer. It's him. He's matched up to DNA. So that's what I'm wondering and hoping, and I'm

also hoping, Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert, that they will also be using the VAC, in other words the most modern DNA technology where there's touch DNA that you leave behind actual skin cells, believe it or not, touch DNA that you leave behind, actual skin cells. Believe it or not, touch DNA can now be.

Okay, so Joe's got what now? We've got his picture. We've got his voice. We've got the time he was there. I would think if it was a local inhabitant, a resident, somebody would have ID'd him by now. He's not in disguise. Chewie has some facial hair and a hat.

But we can figure out how tall he is, how much he weighs. Remember in Midlothian, you can, for instance, Alan standing there. If I'm the FBI, I'm a cop, I can measure to the top of that cross in the door, and I can say

that's how tall Alan Duke is. I can look at him photographically and determine how much he weighs based on that. So we know how tall he is. We know he's a white male, his hair color, how much he weighs, what his voice is, where he was, but we don't have him. Joe Scott. The most important thing that we want to consider here, and I think that it always goes back to this, is the idea of timeline. The timeline is very, very critical in this case. When I first came in contact with this case, I think that I was on the air within two days, and when I heard about the nature of it, I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked because I knew that as a result of this,

of what they were saying, I was like, this is going to be a home run. They're going to catch this guy immediately because it's contained. You guys had this grid search that was going on. A lot of this information was coming out in regards to this. And so as time went by, when things didn't gel like I thought that they would at that moment in time, I was kind of surprised because the bodies were contained in this specific area. They were found immediately adjacent to the bridge. It's a small community.

It's a rural community. So what now, Joseph? I think that now, moving forward, the police, and please forgive me, I'm going to be blunt, the police have used the words heinous a couple of times, and that tells me that there is contact going on. And I think that that goes without saying. I think to what point there is contact, physical contact, and what the nature of injuries are. One of the things I would be very curious about is this.

Was the coroner present at the scene? I'm not talking about autopsies. I want to know, was the coroner present at the scene I'm not talking about autopsies I want to know was the coroner present at the scene what type of examination was done at the scene because for me one of the things I want to know is I want to understand what's called post-mortem interval how long had these two girls been deceased and that had to be measured at that moment in time. I spent the reason I'm kind of having an attachment to this, I spent several years in Indiana training coroners. I taught at their state coroner's academy.

And I know that these people are trained very well considering the limitations they have in rural areas. I would want to know what kind of attention was paid at the scene to some of the steps that we take in the examination of remains of the scene how was it documented how were they able to process this i'm not talking about the cops and then i know that the girls remains were taken to tarahoke which is what it's almost what an hour and 45 minutes from y'all's location where the further examination was conducted at that point in time i I want to know how much attention to detail did they pay at that moment in time and the measurements, particularly things like, and again forgive me, but things like body temperature.

We have the picture of the perpetrator and by now nobody in the area can identify this person. Do you believe, and I wanted to ask this question, do you believe that anyone is covering up for someone locally? It would be assumed that somebody knows who this is, and for whatever reason they haven't come forward yet, a mother, a sister, a family member. Maybe they haven't, though.

Maybe they really just don't know, but you get that feeling about somebody we don't know. Do you have any reason to think someone's covering up for the perk? Or that they really don't know, and I'm asking you. I deal with facts and data. That's the kind of guy I am. I'm an engineer, and could he be? Yeah, we can talk theories. How many people live in Delphi? 3,000. Okay.

Is he there? Could be. I don't see how. I really do not see how in a town of 3,000 that nobody knows this man. Well, that's just it. We aren't a big, I mean, there's probably 10,000 people in our whole county. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a town that's very small. In no way.

I mean, this is very accurate in detail. I know. I had to jump in. So one of the other things to keep in mind are what amazing girls you raised, that one of them took the picture as that person was walking. And, Nancy, the point I would make with that is trust your gut. I have no doubt she never would have taken a picture of him approaching if they knew him. Why would they take a picture of a clandestine person walking towards them?

So I, in my mind, this is someone they did not know from the community. That's brilliant. You know what else? It leads me to think that he had done something other than, like, I passed all of you guys in the hall. I didn't say, oh, take a picture. He had to do something to make them go, oh, we're going to take his pictures. Let's see who has an idea that can help us. Yes.

B, Bree, put it in a nutshell. Hi, thank you. I'd like to know if they've given you any profile of this killer, and if they have, what would be the profile? I haven't received a profile other than, like, the estimated weight, height, size, as far as an actual person itself. No. I think there's what the investigators are leaning on, the fact that we do have some good hard evidence.

Like you said, we got a picture. We got a sketch. You know, we got a voice. I still say somebody out there knows. And that person may not know about this case. I mean, they know the guy. This guy lives beside somebody, somebody's friend, somebody's co-worker. We just need to reach that person. And through, you know,

through something like this, people help spread it out. Eventually, we'll get to that right person who has the wherewithal to make that call. I have the police looked at their internet, their iPads, their cell phones, everything. One of the first things they did was gather all of our stuff, our phones, the tablets, the passwords. We actually had to go and file for estates on the girls to get Apple and Google to release those things. That was one of the first things they saw, including with the Snapchat photo that Libby took of Abby.

There is no evidence whatsoever that they were intending on meeting anybody that day. As far as we know, they have not found anything, and that's why they said they weren'tending on meeting anybody that day. As far as we know, they have not found anything, and that's why they said they weren't planning on meeting anybody. They didn't even really tell anybody they were going. So this wasn't a, I know the girls are going to be out there, and we're coming. Yeah, it's an avenue they have to investigate, and it would be one of the first avenues.

John David asks all the time, can he have, like, group chats. I'm like, unless it's somebody at school that you know, no, because you're probably talking to some 65-year-old guy in New Jersey in his underwear, and you don't want that. And he's pretending he's eight, okay? And he's playing Minecraft or whatever with you. Everybody, we are here at CrimeCon, and we have with us the family of Liberty and Abby

who lost their lives at the bridge in Delphi. We have a live studio audience and we are looking for clues. If there is DNA, for example, if there was some kind of encounter, if there's DNA under the fingernails, it tells me that maybe this might be a person that's never been in trouble. I find that very hard to believe with his age. You don't just jump up at age 40-something and kill two little girls. But Nancy, with no DNA, I mean, has his DNA ever been collected? But what she's saying, Renee, I guess you're on the DNA.

I don't know that there's DNA. And they don't know because nobody's saying. So I can't follow that. It's natural route. So I'm backing up. Remember when we tried cases without DNA? Think, think, think. And this is how we did it.

So do you guys know if they have gone to, a drifter didn't just walk there from 45 miles away. Other places have surveillance video, not that bridge. But do we know if that has been gathered from, as she said, gas stations, truck stops, restaurants? Yes, it has been. It has been. They did right away. But it's a great idea.

You're right. I mean, that's what we're here for. If there's something that we haven't done, we definitely want to know about it. And, Nancy, can I just say, think about this. It doesn't mean that he hasn't done something in the past. He has, likely. He's a predator. What it means is he's never been caught.

So people need to look at, is this somebody, oh, we have a relative. They'd never do that. Every criminal out there, oh, they'd never do it. I think he's been caught. And they did it. I'm telling you, when this breaks, he has something. He has an arrest somewhere. Yeah.

One of the things I was wondering, do they have any evidence of primitive camping around there at all? I mean, do people commonly primitive camp there? Is there evidence in there that, you know, you've got people that primitive camp in that particular area and they would go unnoticed? So is there evidence of any campground at all? Primitive camping where there's just random fires that have been set and that sort of thing. Not that I came across.

I actually did a grid search out there shortly after this all happened. I couldn't just sit idle. I cleared it with the FBI and the police and said, hey, I've got some buddies and got about a dozen of us and kind of gridded the whole area out and did a search looking for stuff. Because, you know, I'm thinking if he's eating things like Beanie Weenies or whatever it is that he's eating sitting there in the campfire. It may not be a campfire.

It may be a tarp. It may be, you know how when you drive by the bridge and you see blankets? It may be something that rudimentary. I'm just wondering if another search of the area for that very thing, because it took a while to find them. How do I know that there's not something out there like a tarp, like a sleeping bag, like a blanket, like anything?

A can that might have a fingerprint on it where he was. Look at his clothes. Did he just show up that day or had he been there? He's got on several layers. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. That's what hides a lot of his features as well.

Did he arrive on a motorcycle? Uncannily warm, overly dressed, in my opinion. These are questions that we have that we don't have answers to. But if he did arrive on a motorcycle, is there an area, like a surveillance area, like a truck stop or something like that that we could look for? Oh, we don't have. We're not big enough for a truck stop. Gotcha.

We have what we call a gas station. I'm also wondering about his clothing, like, for instance, specifically that hat and the jacket, what kind it is, where it could be purchased. I mean, you can identify a trash bag from the lot, the manufacturer, the store, where it was purchased. What about that? That's going to meet some serious FBI work on that. Absolutely, and that's the picture that was taken from the video off of Libby's phone. We tried to clear it up, and I've been told that they've sent it to several different places,

NASA, Disney, all kinds of places. But it comes down to pixelation, And you can only polish it so much. Now, you don't want to change or alter that because that begins to mess with the integrity, again, of the information for the investigation. You can't go in there and change it around and say, okay, I bet his nose is this big, I bet his lips are that big. Well, then you're making it look like somebody.

And a good defense attorney is going to come in and blow that up. I'm just thinking about if we could identify any of the clothing and go take it to a location. And if he is on a motorcycle or has a car, for instance, that makes him more substantial. That means he's got an apartment or a home. It's a whole different line of investigation as opposed to a drifter that might have been eating out of a can of tuna, pop-top, somewhere in those woods, which is a whole other line of investigation to research the area I mean I don't mean research look it up a lot I mean walk it no I understand yeah and that it trust me that area's been

walked very well I spent two weeks out there doing it myself as well as a bunch of other people and also that most of this is all private property it's very very reviewed by these people you don't go on there you'll get arrested but what were they looking for when you you were searching, were you looking for a key? Anything and everything out of the ordinary was the direction that I'd give them. I said, anything that looks out of place. If it's not a stick or twig or something, I want to know about it. Hold on, let me give this suggestion. And we did. I'm not saying there's not something there. I mean, I'm not perfect,

but I did a pretty thorough search. Thank you for being here. My name is Lynn Lynn King I'm a private investigator out of Atlanta but we also called Nancy Graceland but no I just wanted to say that you know obviously you know heard lots of coverage on this just you know I think you've kind of already answered my question I wanted to find out where was the nearest like truck stop because I just don't I just don't feel like this was a drifter I don't feel like it's somebody that was camped out there this I just feel like it was a crime of opportunity but I feel like he was prepared to do a crime and look at his physique he had not missed a meal

this is not some homeless person that doesn't have anything to eat that's shuffling for just money for food. This guy is eating on a regular basis. So to answer your question, about 15 mile away to the north is the nearest truck stop. Obviously we have gas stations. He had to come from somewhere. Yeah, I don't get the feeling that he's local, but I feel like he was prepared that day to carry out a crime. I feel like he's already been in that area. So he already knew how remote it was. And also just, you know, when it comes to cases like that, that's another thought. Listen, when you have predators walking along a track, they're not there to exercise.

She's right. He was there. Listen, when you have predators walking along a track, they're not there to exercise. She's right. He was there. It was either a crime of opportunity where he wanted to rob somebody of get money, and he saw the girls and his motive changed, but he was there to do a felony, which also narrows down who we're looking for. We're looking for a guy that I think has a record. It could be for something petty, like peeping Tom or snatching Grab,

breaking into a car, something, because he didn't start at age 40 plus. No, he didn't. No. This is not a homeless guy because he's well fed. His clothes are decent. And he's there to commit a felony, and he's well fed. His clothes are decent. So, and he's there to commit a felony and he's not local. That's a lot of information. Has anybody looked through the

school district? I'm a teacher. If this is an opportunity and he's been there to walk the trails before, maybe he knew that the kids were out of school that day. I'm not saying that he watched your daughters when I'm granddaughter. What I'm saying is have you checked through the school website were there multiple hits to look at your school calendar to see if this guy knew that school was going to be out that day. That's a good that's a good point. I'll take that one. I like that. That's a really good point. There were people that looked that assumed that well it had to have been public knowledge that the kids didn't have school that day. Well yeah if you lived in the school district, but I don't go into the Tennessee website and say, oh, well, look at what school isn't going to be in school

in session in spring break. I know you wouldn't, but a predator might. You are correct. Guys, I know this is totally politically incorrect, but before we close our podcast, our series radio show, I want you to join me and pray for an answer for them. Father, help these families seek justice and lead us to help them in any way we can.

Amen. With me right now, the families of Abby Williams and Libby Liberty-German, help us find them. Help us find their killers. It's so hard for me to even say their killers. When I look at their pictures and I look at you, they seem so alive. And when you talk about their art supplies and the time you saw them the tip line is 844-459-5786 the website is abby a b b y and libby l i b b y dot org abby and libby dot org

there is a 240 000 reward these girls were brutally murdered and their killer is walking free and we will not forget and we will not rest until he has been brought to justice. Tip line 844-459-5786. 844-459-5786. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.