Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Long Island Serial Killer Suspect's Wife Gets 'Million Dollar Deal' from Peacock

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Rex Heuermann has been housed in the Suffolk County Correctional Facility since his July arrest for the deaths of three women.  Asa Ellerup, his estranged wife, filed for divorce six days later. Since then she has not visited Heuermann, until now. Bob Macedonia, Ellerup’s divorce attorney, confirmed  Asa Ellerup met with Rex Heuermann at the Suffolk County Jail. No word on how the meeting went or what was said. She has now also attended a court hearing for the accused Long Island Serial Killer. A crew for the Peacock network accompanied her after the family signed a deal worth at least 1 million dollars to take part in an upcoming documentary.  We've also learned that Heuermann has become a pen pal behind bars, writing to another serial killer, the "Happy Face Killer. In the early 90s Keith Jesperson, a long hall truck driver, killed many women. When someone else took credit for one of his murders, he started sending letters to the media and police with information only the killer would know. He put a "happy face" on each of his letters and was dubbed the Happy Face Killer.  DailyMail reports that Jesperson wrote a letter to Heuermann encouraging him to confess and offering some advice. Rex Heuermann reportedly writes back, thanking the Happy Face Killer for the advice, and then complains about the food in jail and the exercise yard.    Joining Nancy Grace Today:  John Ray - Attorney for Shannan Gilbert's Family Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall Joseph Giacalone  – Former NYPD Sergeant SDS and Author: “ The Cold Case Handbook” and “The Criminal Investigative Function: A Guide for New Investigators 4th Edition;” Twitter: @JoeGiacalone Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Keith Rovere - Author: “The Story Of Yu," and Host of the “The Lighter Side Of Serial Killers” Podcast (was sent Rex Heuermann’s letter by the Smiley Face Killer); Twitter, IG, FB: The Lighter Side Of Serial Killers   Charlie Lankston - US Associate Editor for DailyMail.com; Twitter/Instagram: @Charlielanks   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Does it never end with this guy? I'm talking about Rex Hureman, aka the prime suspect in the Long Island serial killer murders. Let me just give you an example. He's enjoying behind bars Italian sausage, green beans, put potatoes, seasoned veggies, and macaroni salad. Nobody's cooking that for me, but they are for him as he spends two to three hours a day combing over discovery provided by the state, including secret grand jury testimony. Oh, and did I mention his wife has just signed a $1 million deal with Peacock? Does it pay to

be a serial killer? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Series 6M111. In the last weeks, Rex Heuermann in court. Now, guess who shows up for the first time and shows up, may I add, in style. Listen. When Asa Ellerup showed up for one of Heuermann's recent court appearances, she arrived in a silver Mercedes, was equipped with a lavalier microphone, and a peacock documentary crew in tow. Ellerup was seen smiling in court as she was seated with her attorney, Bob Macedonia,

and an interviewer from the documentary crew. Ellerup even smiled and nodded at Heuermann when he turned and smiled at her before leaving the courtroom. Okay, hold on. I think my hearing is finally going. Because I thought I heard that she showed up in a silver Mercedes and smiled at the guy she hasn't visited one time. The guy who allegedly is torturing and murdering sex workers in their home. Jackie, could you please play that again? I must have misheard it. When Asa Ellerup showed up for one of Heuermann's recent court appearances, she arrived in a silver Mercedes, was equipped with a lavalier microphone,

and a peacock documentary crew in tow. Ellerup was seen smiling in court as she was seated with her attorney Bob Macedonia and an interviewer from the documentary crew. Ellerup even smiled and nodded at Heuermann when he turned and smiled at her before leaving the courtroom. Okay I heard correctly the wife who claimed that she was bankrupt and I believe even started a GoFundMe to support herself, is showing up in a silver Mercedes with a lavalier mic on and a camera crew all done up. Really? Okay. Is this Asa Elorup or is this Kim Kardashian?

Megan and Harry, you remember every time they show up in New York, there's a camera crew chasing them around. Charlie Langston joining me, U.S. editor for DailyMail.com. What? I mean, things have certainly taken a turn for Miss Ella Rupp. Let us not forget that just a few weeks ago, she was seen looking, I mean, absolutely kind of out of things. She was disheveled. She was crying. And now all of a sudden, she's turning up at court, as you said, like an A-list superstar. She's accompanied by cameras. She's smiling. She was even seen laughing with the Peacock interviewer. And that is because her life has taken a pretty drastic turn in the last couple of weeks. Now, obviously, having your husband suspected of

multiple murders is not that easy to deal with. But she's now got the cushion of a $1 million Peacock documentary deal, plus her husband recently signed over their $530,000 home to her for $0. So her life has really kind of taken, you know, as much as it can can a few positive steps forward i'm sorry what did you say a few positive steps a million dollar deal a camera crew chasing her around and her husband signed over half a million dollar home to her uh some would argue in a bid so the murder victims families can't get at it okay you know what to joseph jacqueline i think you'll be able to agree with me on this or at least empathize with what i'm about to say because you're a former nypd sergeant author of the cold case handbook the criminal investigative function a guide for new investigators uh podcast host of a hit series, True Crime with the Sarge.

I mean, I can go on and on and on. But my point is, you've been in the trenches just like me. I've seen crime victims suffering, trying to deal with the loss of their mother, their daughter. And it's such a horrible way because, you know, if these allegations are true, he, Rex Uriman, murdered unarmed defenseless women as he was raping them and beating them and binding them and torturing them and killing them. Many of them had children that to this day don't really know what happened to mommy, can't bear to think about her last moments being raped and tortured by Rick's human.

And now Asa Allerup has a million dollar peacock deal and they're suddenly exchanging smiles and loving glances in court when she hasn't visited him one time until the camera showed up i don't know joe jacqueline it just i i want good things for her but the irony that nobody gives a flying fig about the crime victims families that grew up without a mother that doesn't bother you after all the crime victims you've seen? Absolutely. What's happening is absolutely abysmal. I mean, to think about it. It's bass-ackwards.

That's what it is, bass-ackwards. Yeah, we have gotten away from being victim-centric in our society, and it always should have been that way, and it should continue to be that way. And we shouldn't be rewarding people, I don't care if it's family members or not, for the deeds of their loved ones, let's put it that way. The issue that really comes down to is that these families have been struggling for decades. And the problem is that they have just gotten some breaks, right? The new police administration, Rodney Harrison, comes in, takes charge.

Some of the cases are being filed. And then, you know, unfortunately, he's leaving and we see this now happening. And we always seem to forget about the victims and the victims should always be front and center. I mean, you don't even even the media is not even interviewing them or or reaching out to them and saying, hey, let me hear your story. It just has never happened in this case. And I know John is here. I mean, if it wasn't for John Ray, this case would have died in the media a long time ago. Oh, and speaking of John Ray, you know what? That's another thing I like about you, Jackalone. You're not a camera hog.

You know, you're calling out John Ray, who has gone so far in advancing this case. John Ray is with us. He's the family lawyer for Shannon Gilbert, who I believe was murdered by Rex Heuermann. And while the wife, John, is planning what she's going to do with that million dollars and the $500,000 house that's been signed over to her, you are out there finding witnesses that are absolutely linking two women, Shannon Gilbert and Karen Vergata, to Rex Heuermann. So where's the indictments? Hey, hey, John Ray, high-profile lawyer joining us.

You can find him at johnraylaw.net. John, listen to this from our friends at crimeonline.com. At least $1 million. That's how much Rex Heuermann's family will reportedly be paid for taking part in an upcoming documentary for Peacock NBC. Asa Ellerup and her two grown children with the accused Long Island serial killer have agreed to sell their life rights, shadowing the family during Heuermann's upcoming trial for the murders of three sex workers. $1 million. rights, shadowing the family during Heuermann's upcoming trial for the murders of three sex workers. One million dollars. Okay, John Ray, you have brought to light multiple eyewitnesses, and they're not all

sex workers. And listen, John, I spent a lot of time as a felony prosecutor in strip bars and going up and down the strip in just outside inner city Atlanta speaking to sex workers, trying to develop cases, all sorts of cases, drug cases, prostitution cases, child sex ring cases, you name it. And the fact that many of these victims are sex workers, that means nothing to me. And I'm very distressed that anyone would place less value on their lives. They have daughters, sons, moms, dads, grandparents that have never known what happened to them, and their pain is real. But I want to hear

from you, John Ray, your reaction to a million-dollar Peacock deal, reported million-dollar deal for Asa Ellerup. Well, it's what I've been saying from the start. Miss ellrup is a sociopath and uh she certainly is in the circle of suspects but why would you call her associate first of all now i know you've got your jd and you're a high profile trial lawyer but i don't believe you have your degree in psychology right correct okay hold on hold on dr bet. Bethany Marshall joining me right now, psychoanalyst. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. She is in a brand new film project. Dr. Bethany, what is, now John Ray, maybe he's right. I don't know because I'm certainly not a shrink. What did you say? say psychopath or sociopath, John?

I said sociopath and also suspect. Oh, now suspect catches my attention a lot more than sociopath. Okay, go ahead, Dr. Bethany. Sociopath, what is that? Well, sociopath is somebody who has a disorder of detachment. They have a complete lack of remorse. They're callous. They're cold. They're callous. They're cold.

They're parasitic. They suck off of other people often. Parasitic? They're parasites. Okay, go ahead. They live off of other people. And, you know, often they use cruelty, which is interwoven with sexuality. So killing people at the same time as, you know, maybe having some kind of a masturbatory fantasy. Can I ask, how do you work masturbation into every question I ask you?

Because this is basically a sex crime. Okay. Serial killing is all about sexual compulsivity. And could I weigh in about these wives really quickly? You know, you have an Asa Ellerup who is smiling. She has like a million reasons to smile right now. And she's pretty remorseless and callous towards the victims. And spouses of serial killers seem to fall into one of two categories. Either you have the Asa Ellerups who really have a corruption of conscience along with the husband. We saw this with J.C. Dugard. Hold on. I need to write that

down. Corruption of conscience. Okay. Hold on. Go ahead. Now, many people would argue that she is was a battered woman. I don't know that to be true or not. I don't know if I could go so far as to call her a suspect. Guilty knowledge does not a suspect make. Did she aid in a bet? That's a whole nother can of worms. Go ahead. Well, she doesn't appear to be an abuse victim right now. She seems to have kind of a superior smug attitude towards the victim. She's monetizing their death. So think of J.C. Dugard, who was kept in the captor's backyard. The captor and his wife would hold religious services, bring J.C. Dugard in all the time that the husband was raping J.C. So the wife knew about it. She sanctioned it. She overlooked it. And compare that to the wife

of the BTK killer. We've never heard much from her at all. She's ashamed. She was passive. She was firmly under his control. So on the one hand, you have the abused wife who pretty much knows nothing and is in a state of shock. And then you have the wives who similarly feel that kind of that the victims have it coming to them and take some secret delight in what's happening to the victims. Speaking of the wife as a potential suspect who now has a million dollar deal with Peacock, take a listen to our cut 238. The wife of Rex Heuermann has not been accused of any wrongdoing by police. They've even gone so far as to say they believe she was out of town when the murders of the Gilgo Four were committed. However, in an interview with the U.S. Sun, attorney John Ray

points out he doesn't see how it's possible to ignore or refuse to investigate Asa Ellerup in light of the purported evidence he has uncovered. Interesting to point out, hairs belonging to Ellerup were found on at least three of the women helping lead detectives back to Heuermann. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hairs, is that right, Charlie Langston? Hairs found on three of the victims? And how many of those hairs do we believe belong to Asa Ellerup, the wife? That is correct. Multiple hairs were found on the victims that belonged to Heuermann's wife, Asa.

And that was actually one of the things that linked him to the victims in the first place. So, you know, I think you can say one of many different things, and I'm sure that there are some experts here who will be able to give you better informed information than I can, but how you can fail to investigate her completely seems absolutely wild to me. Surely they would want to look into what she knew and whether she was connected to any of the victims. Because at the end of the day, she had physical evidence on their bodies that links her to three dead women. It's not just the hair, which we are understanding, and this will be made clear in court, that her hair is found on three of the victims. Take a listen now to our cut to 2-8.

The fourth comes from another state. She was a sex worker for many years. She said that she would service Rex Uriman over 20 times and that he was a serial user of sex workers. He would sometimes have them come two at a time to his house and his wife was home upstairs and in one instance got very angry at one of the sex workers because the wife believed that the worker had stolen an iron for ironing clothes and had it in the car with the driver. So the driver had to get out. Everybody had to search the car.

There was no iron, but the wife knew about it and knew about, obviously, what was going on in order for that to happen. John Ray joining us, the lawyer for the family of Shannon Gilbert. And I'm still waiting on that indictment because now you have managed to dig up witnesses, not necessarily in the sex business, that connect Heuermann, place Heuermann with Shannon Gilbert and Karen Fregata. What more do they need? I mean, do they really believe another serial killer came in and disposed of bodies where Rex Heuermann

had been disposing of bodies. That doesn't even make any sense. It's astronomically unlikely that that happened, and now eyewitnesses are linking them. So explain your theory that Asa Eller is actually a suspect. Guilty knowledge does not a suspect make. But she's more than guilty knowledge. First of all, I say suspect. I didn't say convict. And because she has four hairs, actually,

that turn up on the three bodies. One of those hairs turns up on the belt, the famous belt dealing with Brandon Barnes. And, you know, for those here to get there and all of them be on the different bodies all at once is, to me, a very strong case for her being a suspect. And it's not hair that just fell off of wrecks. That's extremely unlikely. But in any event, we have that. Plus, we have this completely conscienceless approach that she's had from day one when she got into this case. She is a sociopath about that, but she's also everything she says and does indicates that she is conscienceless.

She has no conscience. That's a that's a precondition as well. Does that that puts her in the circle of suspects. There has to be more found out about her. But we have other witnesses who say, oh, she's having, you know, she's with her husband. They go and have their hair cut together. They travel together. This is not an abused woman. eyewitnesses who put her in the room with her husband when these multiple sex situations are going on in this teeny weeny little house. So how does that tie in? Well, it puts her closer and closer to the center of the problem, which is the murders. And here she is, apparently also

involving herself in swinging as well, according to one of the witnesses. So with her husband, that is. So we have here also something else about these two people. She and her husband, they are high risk takers. And you might wonder what happened to all their money. The guy made up four hundred million dollars over the course of years. Where did the money go? Well, we now have a new witness has come forward and says he spends his time sitting in certain gambling places, Mohegan up in Connecticut. He's there for hours and hours. He's a gambler. They are gamblers. They are risk takers. This woman has no conscience so she can take the risks that she's taking. Think about this. Every time she

talks to Peacock, whatever she says to them, eventually the district attorney is going to be able to subpoena records of what she said and why. All of that's on the table. And then she's got two lawyers who are getting paid to have her expose herself like this. It's bizarre. And it's bizarre because the whole case is bizarre. Another issue about what you just said, John Ray, is the husband-wife marital privilege. Much of what prosecutors may want to ask Asa Ellerup would be disallowed in court because Rex Heuermann, the defendant, would jump up, his lawyer would anyway, and claim marital privilege. The defendant is the one that claims the privilege, not the witness, not her. However, if she pierces the

privilege by divulging to producers or anyone else, much less on camera, private conversations, private observations, she has relinquished the privilege. So I guarantee you there will be a court battle for not only the footage that they film, but everything Asa Elarup says to producers, to assistants, to camera people, you name it, anything that she says that could pierce the privilege. Could you boil that down? Yeah. I mean, basically what will happen is that everything she says, not only to Peacock, but including her lawyers, will lose the privilege when she's saying things to a third party in the presence of her attorneys and with their consent, especially

so. So they lose their privilege as well that, you know, the attorney client privilege disappears along with the disappearance of the husband wife privilege. There'll be no more privileges now that she's going into Peacock and doing this. I want to circle back to the hair. Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining us. Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, Lecturer, University of Texas, Austin, and Texas Christian University Medical School. Dr. Crowns, thank you so much for being with us and taking time away from Oh My Stars. I guess now over 10,000 autopsies you have performed. Could you explain, because I know this is going to be attacked in court, how hair is found, a third person's hair, not the victim's hair, on the victim's body

or, for instance, in a burlap bag in which the victim's body is encased. How exactly is that done in a way that holds up under attack in court? So as I'm sure you're aware, everybody sheds a certain amount of hair every day and it gets on surfaces on your clothes. No, I'm not aware. I don't know anything about shedding hair. Tell me. Okay. Well, everybody every day loses a certain amount of hair. It's just a natural course of life. Everybody sheds a little bit of their hair as they go about the day, as certain amount of hair. It's just a natural course of life. Everybody sheds a little bit of their hair as they go about the day, as you comb your hair, et cetera.

So you have it on your clothes, you have it in your car, you have it on surfaces about your house. When someone gets murdered in an area where your hair fibers are at, their blood can stick to that hair and it gets stuck to their body. Also, when the individual is being murdered, they may grab at your hair and pull it out of your head and it gets on their body as well. If it's a third person, say his wife in this particular case, her hair is in the house where these sex workers are at, her hair can be transferred onto them and then

carried out. So hair is one of those fibers that can easily get mixed onto a body just through the natural course of events. So we shed 50 to 100 hairs a day that we know of. And I also want to point out, John Ray, I hope you're sitting down, John Ray High Profile Lawyer. The lawyers in this case are getting $400,000 and $200,000, respectively, in court. That's a half a million dollars. That's a lot of money. The lawyers not only are getting paid, they're getting paid to do something that walks the very thin line of unethical, unethical behavior because they're putting their, they're exposing their client to, to possible prosecution. And they're exposing their client at least to assisting her in convicting her husband.

You mean by allowing the Peacock documentary to go forward, if you could call it that. Yeah. And to get paid for it, but by a third party, they're getting, they're not getting paid by Ellerup. They're getting paid by a third party. So who is their client? Not only is there a million dollar deal and a silver Mercedes somehow has weaseled into this scenario, but there's also a GoFundMe. Take a listen to this. The daughter of the happy face killer, Keith Jesperson, set up a GoFundMe for Ellerup to help her do just that. So far, over $56,000 has been raised. Some victims' families have criticized the fundraiser. Sources tell news

agencies that filming has already begun and will continue throughout the as-yet-unscheduled trial and its aftermath. Film crews were seen trailing the family to Heuermann's recent arraignment. Wow. And speaking of the recent arraignment, remember that Asa Ellerup has not been visiting her husband at all, zero times behind bars until this. Listen. tale. Then comes to a hearing, both the first since his arrest in July, and many wonder if she will continue to show up for her husband of 27 years. Ellerup's divorce attorney confirmed that Ellerup wants to see the court proceedings for herself. Rex Heuermann is caught staring directly at his estranged wife in a recent court hearing. WPIX reports Heuermann cast a sharp glance to his right, where Ellerup is sitting with her lawyer and a person from NBC Peacock. While Heuermann is looking at her, Fox News reports Ellerup's expression is a slight smile in response. Exchanging smiles in the courtroom, a million

dollar deal in the works, a silver Mercedes driving her around. What's happening next? Plus a GoFundMe that is raising more money by the day while the husband rex heuermann is behind bars being fed italian sausage green beans whipped potatoes seasoned veggies and macaroni salad okay joining me right now a special guest keithvere, author of The Story of You, That's Why You, and podcast host of, and I didn't understand this at first, or now, The Lighter Side of Serial Killers. And you were sent Rex Heerman's letter by the smiley face killer. Is that correct, Keith Revere? Yes. Thank you for having me on the

show. The blessing to be a part of it. I have known Keith for a few years now. First of all, who is Keith? Keith Jesperson, the happy face killer. He's been on my podcast probably 10 times or so. And Rex isn't the first serial killer that he has written. I assume that when you say Rex, you were on a first name basis with the two serial killers? No, Rex Heerman, I've never talked to. I've never corresponded with him at all.

Keith had ASB for his address in prison or in jail. Where is that now? So I sent him that. Wayne Adam Ford, another serial killer just on my podcast,

received a letter from Keith also years ago. Author Shawcross, Charles Manson. He's written numerous people. One of the reasons why he gave me the letter is like the Manson letter. A Charles Manson letter he received was stolen out of his cell. So he didn't want that letter stolen. So he sent it to me.

You know, there's a trust factor, but I've known him for many years. The other reason he sent it to me, I was going to be on a Dateline special with this release on Rex Urban, uh, last week. Um, they decided to cut this letter out. I didn't own the letter at that point. Uh, I just, they heard about the letter and they decided to not air that portion on the show. They want to focus more on the victims.

Rightfully so came out great. Well, Keith found out about that. He's Jesperson. And I told him I'm not going to be part of the show. The letter's not going to be part of the show. They want to focus on the victims that upset him and so he said i'm also going to send you this letter so you can show that one of the producers and one of me on the show i think julie kimmer's her name um he was upset he's like oh they think i'm lying because i lied to the

press you know years ago no it's because you're a serial killer that's why nobody believes them of course um but that was But that was a trust factor. He didn't want the letter stolen and show it to Dateline NBC saying, hey, look, I'm not a liar. Here's the letter. Here's the letter. OK, I'm sorry. Hold on. Don't care.

And I don't mean that in an evil, hateful way, but I don't care that a serial killer is angry that he didn't make Dateline. Just could not care any less than I do. But speaking of the happy face killer who apparently has chucked up a pen pal relationship with Rex Huerman, do I have to quote my grandmother? Birds of a feather flock together. Okay, there I said it. Take a listen to our cut 252. Who is the happy face killer? In the early 90s, Keith Jesperson was a long haul truck driver who liked to kill women. When someone else took credit for one of his murders, he started sending letters to the media and police with information only the killer would know. He put a happy face on each of his letters and was dubbed the happy face killer. Imprisoned for life since 1995,

the happy face killer is becoming pen pals with suspected Long Island serial killer Rex Heuermann. The Daily Mail reports that Jesperson wrote a letter to Heuermann encouraging him to confess and offering some advice. Rex Heuermann reportedly writes back thanking the happy face killer for the advice and then complains about the food in jail and the exercise yard. crime stories with nancy grace sydney please get me some more menus from the jail because you know what i'm making fish fillets tonight the kind of get frozen and they have a little breading on it because the twins love them they think they're having fish okay so i i think i would do a backflip if somebody came in and had prepared and i've got

to hear more italian sausage green beans whipped seasoned veggies, and macaroni salad. I'm sure that there's a dessert in there. And these two are complaining about the food behind bars? I mean, what are they talking about with each other, Keith? One thing I think is very telling. Sometimes it's what's not in a letter or what somebody does not say in writing that. Like how they tortured, raped, and murdered unarmed and defenseless women, once they lured them and got them alone and then overpowered them by girth and weapons. Yes. And also the fact what he did not say is I did not do it.

I am not guilty. I get it. I get a sense of like peace about this, like acceptance. Like, yeah, they got me. I wonder what the food is going to be. I didn't get a sense of any of that, that, hey, I'm not guilty. What do I do? What do I do? I definitely did not do this. Nothing. It's almost a calmness when you read that letter of it just screams guilt to me just by reading it.

Hold on just a moment. You're absolutely right. Nowhere do they claim I didn't do this. I'm being railroaded. Sidney, how dare you point out to me that you had already sent me that information. Okay, here we go. For breakfast, chilled grape juice, hot cinnamon oatmeal, toast, margarine, milk, coffee, sugar. Okay, hot wheat cereal, blah, blah, blah, crispy rice cereal, hard-cooked eggs. That's just for breakfast. Wait for it. Is this lunch or dinner? Lunch. Beef cacciatore with spaghetti, steamed green beans,

bread and butter, Hawaiian beverage, applesauce, and for the vegans, meatless pepper steak. Okay. I mean, here's one of my faves. This is for lunch. Tomato soup, cream of tomato, and grilled cheese sandwich. It's like mother is cooking your meal. Barbecue chicken, white rice, Creole bean sauce. I mean, it goes on and on. Why is that irritating me so much, Joe Giacalone?

Well, it actually shows you that we treat our prisoners a lot better than what some of the activists have been telling us for years. I think it's something else. I'm not listening to the activists lying on the courthouse steps. It's the fact that these guys, I mean, how hard is it? Dr. Bethany Marshall, you're the shrink. And I hated doing this to juries, but I did it every murder trial. I made them think. Now, it's actually against the law constitutionally for them to put themselves in the shoes of the victim.

That's disallowed in most jurisdictions. But I would force them to think about what the victims went through. Let's just think about this. And Dr. Bethany, Charlie Langston, Daily Mail, Superstar, everybody on the panel, jump in if I'm missing anything. A lady is lured to be alone with Rex Heuermann, who's like, what, 6'5", weighs about

at least a deuce and a quarter. 6'4", and he weighs 280 pounds. That's less than I thought. So she's alone with him, and he begins to rape her vaginally and anally, and during that torturing her and beating her

until he strangles her dead. Some of the victims, of which I suspect him, dismembered. They never, what are their last thoughts as they're getting raped and they're passing out? Just imagine that moment that this is happening. Will they ever see their children again? Will they ever see their family again? Or is this it? And then they die. And this guy is getting cream and tomato soup and a grilled cheese sandwich. Nancy, it's like he's being put in the center of mother's care. Back to the earliest part of life

where everything is provided for him. He doesn't have to work anymore. He doesn't have to earn what he gets. He's sort of at the center of things. Everything is brought to him. He doesn't have to work anymore. He doesn't have to earn what he gets. He's sort of at the center of things. Everything is brought to him. In some ways, it's like the ultimate example of being catered to. Now, you and I may not want to be catered to that way, but for someone like him, he is at the center of things. And think of this, he and this other, the smiley face killer, they're giving advice. They're passing little notes back and forth like kids in the classroom. And bragging about their pen pal relationship.

Charlie Langston, isn't it true that Heuermann was arrested at the moment he was arrested because police believed he was about to strike again? A woman reportedly called police because he was following her in a park and she got so freaked out she left the park. She was there for a walk, maybe with her dog, and he was following her around and he had just recently bought more minutes for a burner phone, which was his mode of reaching and luring his victims, he was about to strike again. There were definitely suspicions that he was going to commit more crimes. And I think that's what forced the investigators to kind of take the step of arresting him when they did. But the reality is, when you look at the letters that were exchanged between Jesperson and

Hewerman, as everyone has said, there's a sense of acceptance coming from Hewerman here. He's asking Jesperson whether he's going to get butter for his bread in prison, as though he's thinking about what life is going to be like when he gets to prison. Jesperson has encouraged him to confess, telling him that he should avoid the media circus that would surround a trial, and also advising him that he should avoid the media circus that would surround a trial, and also advising him that his life in prison will be easier if he just pleads guilty, avoids the media circus, because that way other people in prison will know less about his crime. He even said, you know, you should avoid giving the prosecutors the opportunity to gloat about

the evidence that they have found against you. And, you know, if anyone's going to know whether or not a person is a serial killer, it's another serial killer. You said it. Birds of a feather flock together. But it also takes one to know one. And I think that looking at Jesperson's correspondence with human is incredibly telling. I'm still wondering where the indictments are for the two additional women, Vergara and Gilbert. How much longer do their families have to wait for justice? And speaking of the letters, Keith Revere with us, author of The Story of You, That's Why You, and star of a hit podcast, The Lighter Side of Serial Killers.

Keith Revere, you do know that Rex Heuermann was writing The Happy Face Killer and asking if Happy Face got butter on his toast. That's what he's worried about. He's not worried about the dead victim's families or what their children are going through growing up without their mother, wondering what happened to her. He's worried about not getting butter on his toast.

I think he's incapable of that. I mean, certainly, I'm not a psychiatrist, but let's just assume he's a psychopath who lacks empathy. Like Keith Jesperson did almost 10 episodes on my show going into detail about his crimes with so lack of interest and empathy, joking about everything. I don't think it's possible for him. Can he talk about it? Certainly.

Does he care? No, he doesn't. His brain doesn't give him the ability to care or to have empathy. And that's part of what I do what I do, to learn more about them. It wasn't that long ago we thought people with schizophrenia were demon-possessed. So I do what I do to learn more about that. How does the brain work? Why don't they have the ability to have fear?

That's another thing. We can kind of read in a letter. There's no fear in that letter. There's no fear. I mean, psychopaths aren't deterred by fear. Certainly those who are to a degree can tell a lot more than I can. But if you're not deterred by fear, you have no empathy. Usually that amygdala portion of the brain from the cortex when it's not working right, you're also not in the ability to stop. If someone bumps you on the shoulder, you want

to smack them. Oh, I better not. It's a bad idea. They don't have the ability because your brain doesn't function that way. So no, there's no fear. There's no lack of empathy. That's the last thing on his mind because it's incapable of feeling that way. So it wouldn't be. However, I jump in, Dr. Bethany. Sorry. However, the lack of empathy is not because they don't know what other people are thinking and how other people feel. They know they just don't care. They can't feel it. Exactly. They can fake it. They can't feel it, but they know they can describe it. So Charlie Langston, as we are somehow getting sucked into whether Rex Heuriman can relate to what he did to his victims, according to police. Charlie, I don't understand what the holdup is. Now, it was a couple of months ago, we were told that DNA from a Vegas

murder victim is being compared to find out if she is another of Rex Heuermann's victims. We know there is a woman in South Carolina that was placed with Heuermann just before she goes missing. When are we going to see results? I mean, I think the issue here is that, you know, it took 13 years for anything to actually be done after the remains of more than 10 people were discovered in Gilgo Beach. So 13 years, I mean, you know, people who have better understanding of criminal law will be able to tell you more. But 13 years is an incredibly long time for people to be dragging their feet. And that is not for lack of prompting from lawyers, from family members.

You know, we were talking earlier about Shannon Gilbert. You know, her mother, up until the end of her life, was begging investigators to keep looking into her daughter's disappearance and death. And it was actually the discovery of her remains that prompted the investigation into Rex Hewerman in the first place. But when you look at how long it's taken for any action to really be taken on the part of investigators. I think it's tragic that nothing else has been done. I think it's devastating that, you know, kind of multiple other bodies, multiple other victims are having their crimes go unsolved. But it doesn't surprise me, unfortunately, because when you look at this case on the whole, it has taken investigators so long

to try and achieve any form of justice. And is it surprising that Heumann was tempted to commit another crime when he went over a decade without anyone holding him under a microscope and looking at him as a suspect? Right now, we are waiting as Asa Ellera breaks in money and is being driven around in a silver Mercedes. We wait to find out, will there be other charges as it relates to the Long Island serial killer suspect, Rex Hjormat. Goodbye, friend.

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