Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Lost arm to tiger, Tiger King co-worker

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

Hear the story of Kelci "Saff" Saffrey, who worked for Joe Exotic and in fact, lost an arm to a tiger. Saffrey confirms whether Joe Exotic executed tigers to make way for new ones and hear what he has to say about the grudge between Exotic and Carole Baskin. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. All of us here at Crime Stories are working every day to stay in touch with you and bring you the very latest in crime and justice news all around our country. And now our friends at SiriusXM are making it even easier for you to get Crime Stories while so many of us are doing our part staying home and staying safe. This is what they're doing.

If you don't already have a subscription at SiriusXM, here's a chance to listen for free. Listen for free. Just go to your app store, download the app for SiriusXM, make up a login name, and you're in to listen for free. Listen through your phone, your computer, Alexa, Google Home, Sonos, any smart TV, so many other devices, but those are a few of them. Don't miss Crime Stories every weekday at high noon Eastern on Sirius XM 111, the Triumph Channel. Free listening for you runs until May 15. Sirius XM, thank you for letting our listeners listen for free and for being our partner. Joe Exotic, The Tiger King. The Netflix special was just a show billed as a documentary. But according to the people that lived through the reign of Joe Exotic, it was far from the entire story.

We go behind the scenes and speak to people that worked there with Joe Exotic at the unlicensed zoo that can describe the abuse to so many animals. Some employees estimating 100 animals killed and buried there on the premises of Joe Exotic. So what is the truth? Right now, a very special guest, Kelsey Safri, who was with Joe Exotic for years and even lost his arm to a tiger. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, special investigation of the Tiger King. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now is a very special guest, Kelsey Safry. Kelsey, thank you for being with us.

It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Kelsey, I've done a lot of studying on you, and I understand you were in the U.S. Army. As a matter of fact, you handled explosives. Am I correct? Every soldier in the Army does that, but yes ma'am, you are. It's hard for me to imagine how you, with your military background, ended up working with Joe Exotic in basically an unlicensed zoo. How did that happen? I got out of the Army in 2010 in Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and it was a passion of mine since I was a kid.

So the only thing I was focused on was getting my hands on a tiger, and Joe was just the first one in the Google search. You know, that's amazing to me, Saf, because when I was little, I dreamed of riding books and riding horses. I never dreamed of holding a baby tiger cub. That's so intriguing to me that you grew up with that desire. Where did you first lay eyes on Joe Exotic? It was at his zoo. You know, we had emailed back and

forth after I had found him and found a way to contact him. Just about me coming out and just kind of checking it out since I had free time, you know. And then, of course, maybe, I don't know, a couple of weeks after our initial contact is when I met him in person. And I'll tell you what, you're never prepared for that. What do you mean by that? Because, I mean, I know you've seen the Netflix docudrama, docuseries. Is that what he's really like? Is that what you encountered the first time you met him?

Oh, yes. That's Joe. Yeah. Well, I guess there's no putting perfume on a pig, Saf. No. So when you first met up with him, how did that meeting end up in you working with him? You know, there was not much conversation between Joe and I. We've already talked about what I wanted out of that experience or just, you know, being at that park. So once we met, you know, he got me to the animals. I mean, I didn't see anything else. You know, Joe didn't matter. I was six inches from a tiger. So that's why I never left. Once you started working there,

what were your duties? Initially, it was just I was on on i was placed on a crew you know um so it had a crew leader and and i i honestly picked up tiger poop and and handled raw meat to feed these cats for at least the first year you know um and i loved every second of it shoveling poop and feeding raw meat you know i i'm glad you mentioned that about the raw meat because I don't know how this could have been spliced in in some misleading way. I believe the part in the Netflix series where the animals were not getting enough food.

I'll circle back to that. So you start off shoveling poop, feeding the animals. Was working behind the scenes different than you thought it would be? I don't know if I thought as far as the work part of it. I just wanted the experience of being able to interact with them. You know, I was born and raised in Hawaii so I don't I don't know anything as far as being around these animals and and anything that entails you know that experience so I was learning everything firsthand nothing everything was new and nothing

you know felt out of place or or incorrect I didn't know any better so when you and I talked before, you mentioned that you knew tigers were being killed. Right. Shot. Right. Did Joe Exotic himself shoot the tigers that had been in cages? Right, yes, every time. Is it true that one of your jobs was to get the animals, lure them, feed them, give them tricks over to the side of the cage?

Yeah, you know, it wasn't a job necessarily. It was just a fact. I mean, these animals trusted us. We were their everything. We were their food. We were their everything. We were their food. We were their love. We were their compassion, their camaraderie. We were their everything, you know. So yes, for sure if we wanted, he wanted that tiger up at the side of the cage, it was us that brought him there for sure.

You told me that it's just like other people's pets. Our dog and cat, the moment I wake up, they run to the door and walk with me from the bedroom to the kitchen. They almost know instinctively when you're coming. How would the animals react when they knew you, Saf, were coming? I mean the same, you know, and don't get me wrong, there were animals on park that didn't like me, that liked others more than me. But for the ones that I had relationships with and, you know, just created this bond, I mean, it was just like your dog or cat at home. You know, you enter into their presence and they're ecstatic about it. You know, that's that unconditional love, you know. So it was good.

Is it true that part of your duties, getting the animals, the tigers, over to the side of the cage included when Joe Exotic shot them? You know, that's true. I mean, he could never get them to the side of the cage no matter how hard he tried. So, yeah, it's true that that was asked of the employees. I never did it, you know. I was a part of the problem as far as being there on park

when I knew it was going on. But I never called anyone over to its death. No, there's no way. That would haunt me the rest of my life if I called the animal over knowing it was going to be shot. What would happen when Exotic was going to shoot the animals? As far as like on park or with the animals? Yeah, I mean, how would he go about shooting them? I mean, it may be normal for everybody else, but for me to shoot a tiger that's been sitting in a cage,

just shoot it in the head, dead, I think that's horrible. And I don't understand how would that get set up? Wouldn't everybody know what was happening? When you go up to a tiger with a gun, it's pretty clear something bad's going to happen. Right. Yeah. No, I'm absolutely sure that everyone knew what was going on, including myself. And, you know, at that point, it's just a look away type of situation. There isn't much that you can do to stop Joe on his own property from doing what he wanted to do. So, yeah, I'm sure everyone on Park knew what was happening. There's just not much you can do about it.

Why would he do it, Seth? Why would he gun down innocent animals that have been sitting in cages? They weren't about to jump on him or bite him or hurt anybody. Why? Yeah, yeah, it's greed. It's all greed, you know. It was always about the biggest or the baddest with Joe. Anything that can bring him to the limelight, be the star of the show.

And it's so sad to say out loud, but I know it's true, you know, that he was an opportunist. If he had an opportunity to put a tiger in a cage that was more beneficial to him, then he will make that cage empty. You know, when you say he will make the cage empty, let's just be honest and call it what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

He'd kill the tiger. Yeah, he did. You know, and it happened since before I was there, and it continued to happen throughout the time I was there. And once I realized that I was more a part of the problem than a part of the solution, I left. Why do you think it went on after you left? You know, I think Joe, there's nothing that's going to change Joe.

Joe is the way that he is, and there's nothing that's going to change Joe. Joe is the way that he is and there's nothing that's going to change him. And I know that there was a time, especially that I witnessed, that he had compassion for animals. You know, that's why I was so stuck on that place. It just seemed like exactly where I needed to be at that time in my life as well and once I realized that wasn't the case it took me a while I was so consumed in what I was doing and I loved every second of what I was doing that you know it took me a while but I came around to it and now looking back on it it's just it's a travesty you know and I was a part of it. You know what it sounds like Saf Saf? Have you ever heard about how battered women stay in the home, in the family, because they want to protect the children? I think a lot of exotic staff stayed there because they loved the animals

and wanted to take care of them. What can you tell me about how exotic would act after he shot down a tiger or another animal? Yeah, it never fazed him. It never fazed him. He just, it was something he did and then went on with his day. If you didn't hear the gunshot or if you didn't see the gun, you would have never knew it happened until you realize the Tigers missing and the other staffers would just act like that was okay no no but like I said you know there wasn't much that you could do there's no arguing at Joe you know a lot of people left a lot of people left a

lot of people spoke up but again they were no longer a part of the park. I feel like the reason that I stayed, you know, was definitely because I always felt the next time I can do better. I can do more. Ignorance and idiocracy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What would happen to the corpses of the animals that he shot? He had a contract with Skulls Unlimited. It's just a skeleton museum, and that's where most of the skulls went. Have you ever heard the phrase bone collector?

Yeah, of course. What is it? A bone collector, just someone who's in it for the bones. I understood there was a truck that he would put the skeletons on, and some of the staff nicknamed it the bone collector. Right, right. It was the guy who came and picked up the bodies, actually. We never held the tigers long enough for them to be skeletons. That was actually why they were being sent to the museum, so they can break it down and, you know, get them

to these properly clean skeletons. And of course, Joe had access to all these exotic animals that most don't. So they were there. As far as I know, they were the only people who got any of the bodies. So he was making money off the skeletons. I really don't know if he sold them. I can only imagine there was some kind of financial benefit. Joe doesn't do anything without some kind of financial gain from it, you know. Seth, I want to talk to you about something,

and I don't mean to bring up more bad memories, but what happened to your arm? What exactly happened? 2013, I was just doing chores, typical Saturday morning, you know, and I stuck my hand into a full grown male's tiger's catch pen to release him from the catch pen and into his main enclosure. And he grabbed a hold of my hand and shredded my arm up with his claws. So it was about 15 to 20 seconds of him showing me, you know, he's a tiger. Why did he do that after all the times you had done the very same thing? Right. You know, I can only imagine, I obviously don't know the exact answer to that, but I can only imagine it was, it was October, early October. I had a thick coat on, I had gloves on. You know, we give these animals, stuffed animals all the time. We give them toys

for enrichment. I can only imagine he thought it was a toy. I couldn't be sure. I have worked with that animal before and I have worked directly with that animal after. He was, you know, that's what I was trying to do is get him back into his main enclosure. But we don't really make it a habit for certain animals to feed through the cage for that reason exactly, you know. Exotic animals, they're in the netflix series half i am convinced from that a lot of i think i'm not convinced of but i could tell that the animals were hungry that they were not getting enough food especially one scene when they said there were not enough chickens to go around how often often did the animals go hungry? Tell me the

truth. Right. Yeah, no, there was not really a time where they were starving. You know, we fed them every single day. And in the wild, you know, they're eating, you know, 100 pounds of meat every two weeks. But it's what they're used to, is the 20 pounds of meat every single day. So yeah, you don't give a 400 pound tiger their 20 pounds of meat that day. They're not going to be happy about it. But not a single animal was starving on that park. There were times where the resources were a lot lower. I know they weren't starving because they were still alive,

but I'm convinced they were not being fed enough right why why wasn't there enough food to go around resources um you know we did have a contract with certain stores uh that we would get their off-the-shelf meat um and because of joe and and joe's actions you know we lost a lot of those contracts so once that went away now we're paying out of pocket. It becomes nearly impossible, you know, and that's the reason. What do you mean because of Joe's actions that you lost food for the Tigers because of Joe's actions? What do you mean? Yeah, you know, he made some statements, and then obviously the whole rumor of him using the meat that was donated

for financial gain in his restaurants, that was it. That's all they needed, and they pulled that contract quicker than you could say it. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. Using the donated meat for restaurants, what? Yeah, yeah, He opened two restaurants. He opened a pizza restaurant and a bar down the road, a bar and grill down the road from the park. The pizza restaurant was on the park property.

And, you know, the first week of any of these establishments being opened, it was, yeah, he's using the meat off of the meat truck, you know. And it was... The donated meat? Yeah meat off of the meat truck, you know, and it was... The donated meat? Yeah, it was a bad deal, you know, and the only losers was the animals. The donated meat for the tigers got used at the restaurants? Yeah, that was the rumor, yeah. Okay.

You know, I know you have told me that you felt guilty for the role that you played with the animals with them getting killed or not getting enough to eat you didn't kill any animal and you did not starve any animal but how did that make you feel being part of seeing animals killed at point blank range in fact i believe you told me they were tranquilized and then shot dead. It just depended on the day. It's weird to say, but you know, Joe wouldn't waste tranquilizer

if he's just gonna end their life. So I highly doubt he used tranquilizers, honestly. Just shoot him point blank? Yeah. Yeah, you know, a monster is a relative term. And Joe fits the bill, you know? I've seen him do a lot of good. And I know he's done a lot of bad.

And that's really where I'm at with the whole thing is, aside from the whole Joe association, I know that I was the one there with those animals and it kills me it kills me but I can only move on Seth I read and I don't know if this is true but I want

you to tell me where exotic would dark gun a mommy up to five times to make the mommy go to sleep so he could take the baby out of her arms and sell it as young as 10 days, two weeks old, while the baby's still nursing. Because the mom wouldn't give away the baby or let him take the baby, so a dark gunner.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he would. Yeah, Joe wanted those babies. I mean, he bred those tigers for a reason. He wanted those babies away from their mom. And if you can imagine anyone trying to take your babies away from you and how you would react, imagine that in a 400-pound tiger. Yeah.

Yeah, it was a bad deal. Over my cold, dead body. Over my cold, dead body. That's what what she said too, you know, that's what these tigers said too. I've never seen one, I've never seen one just walk away. I've never, you know, I've seen some kind of ignore their babies, but you try to take those babies from them and they'll come after you. So yeah was always a bad deal what would happen how how would that happen you know he like i said he bred them um for a reason uh so we knew the cages that were breeding we knew uh how long gestation was we knew exactly we could time it to to the week when those babies were going to be there um and for the most part, you know, he used the same breeding pair. So it's just a continuous vicious cycle of cubs and breeding and cubs and breeding.

And it just gets ridiculous with Joe. But, you know, Joe was, it was greed in the end, you know. For me, it was a lot of greed and selfishness. What would the mom do, Saf? What would the mom do when she'd wake up and the baby be gone? Yeah, you know, he never used tranquilizers. He darted them, just empty darts. But it's still the same concept.

You're just picking at her. You're just picking at her to push her out of there. And eventually, she just cowers to her catch pen, you know. And that was the routine every time. Second she's in her catch pen, you lock her in there. You have full access to those cubs without that mom having any access to you. And every time. It happened every time. I can't imagine that the mother tiger would not react once she got free.

No, she reacts. She reacts. You know, it never happened in two minutes. There's lots of videos out there where these mothers, they come after us, you know. If it wasn't for that cage, I mean, yeah, there wouldn't be a story to tell. They fight with everything they have but um i gotta tell you something that's making me feel sick to my stomach to think that you dart the mother over and over and then the minute you could take the baby take it yeah and

it would happen over and over and over to the same mother tiger yeah Yeah, for the most part, yeah. We had the same breeding pairs. When they stopped breeding, Joe gets another breeding pair. Did it ever concern him that that is against the law to sell those baby tigers? I think, you know, Joe was so focused on what he wanted and what he needed. Obviously, as we can tell where he sits right now, I don't think he thought the law applied to him.

So... ¶¶ ¶¶ ¶¶ Seth, let me ask you about Carole Baskin. Everybody is interested in Carole Baskin, and I get it. I know he would say he wanted her head in a jar. I mean, he's documented saying that on one of his YouTube shows.

Wanting her head cut off, wanting her shot off her bike trail while she's out all by herself on a bicycle. Was that just for show or do you believe he really wanted Baskin dead? Oh, I mean, Joe was a talker for sure, but there's no doubt in my mind that, you know, he thought life would be better off without her. No doubt in my mind. No. Why do you say that? What did you observe that makes you say that? Every day started with, you know, Carol. Every day continued with Carol and every day ended with Carol. Everything that came up was Carol's fault. You know, every issue that, that arise, whether it had to do with his personal life or to do with the park. You know, it was Carol's fault.

And after a while, you just start to tune it out. I mean, you have to, to get anything done. Do you believe he would have killed her with his own hands? No. No, Joe's, no. Joe does not have that in him. Why? I know, I know this, I know this man. I worked with him for almost 10 years.

What do you mean he doesn't have it in him? That's not what a jury said. No, I mean, I'm sure that the jury is very convinced, just like I am, that he wanted her dead. But I know, man to man, he doesn't have it in him to do it himself. You don't think he had the guts to do it himself? Absolutely not.

No. I believe your phrase was he didn't have the balls for it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's exactly what what it is i didn't know i could say that you can say the truth yeah he definitely didn't have the balls to do it himself but would he hire somebody to do it that sounds more of joe's alley for sure you know i mean i've said it before Anything that he can get anyone else to do. Right. According to those audio tapes, he said, I just got to go sell a bunch of tigers. His words, not mine.

See? I mean, like I said, anything Joe can get anyone else to do, that's what he's going to do. I've done so much more on that farm physically. What do you think happened with that fire? so much what do you think happened with that fire saff what do you think happened with that fire yeah the fire um i mean it was quite the co-in kidding the coincidence that he was out of town one night for i think a wedding or funeral and that night one of the structures there that had all that video in it of his reality show all went up in smoke and i believe there were alligators in there too there was there was there was 11 animals in that

building in the same building um what i think of it is is i can i can just hope that the man i stood next to for almost 10 years didn't put animals lives know, in a situation where they ended for his benefit. But I guess that's just, that's what he does. Well, who else do you think could have done it? Who would have done it? Who would it benefit? No one. I mean, no one.

That was footage of everything for years um everything on that park so if there was anyone who who would have benefited from it it's him and if there was anyone who would have been destroyed by it it's him so there you go when you had your arm ripped off off by the tiger i wanted to ask you this what was was Exotic's response to that? How did he act when you were hurt so badly? Yeah, in front of me, you know, he was pretty decent. I mean, it was just, hang in there, we'll get you help, you know. And my reaction was just, I just knew I needed to stay calm

so that everyone else didn't panic, you know. But, of course, I didn't see anything he did outside of my view. But, honestly, I didn't expect anything different. You know, Joe was always, you know, it's all about Joe. What do you mean you didn't expect anything different? What is your understanding? What have you learned you didn't expect anything different? What is your understanding? What have you learned was his reaction? Yeah, you know, we all have different priorities.

I was kind of focused on not bleeding out and, you know, the customers and the employees that had to visually see what I had just been through, their welfare and well-being. And then, of course, you know, the tiger who seemed pretty pleased with himself. But, you know, his priority at the time was financial, you know, recovery and wardrobe. So I guess we're different. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What?

What now? Financial recovery and wardrobe, for sure, was his priorities. What do you mean by financial recovery and wardrobe? That's what he was worried about after you got your arm bitten off? That's what he was worried about, yes. You know, I knew it was going to take a toll on the park. I mean, obviously, everyone had to go home that day so whatever he had made in sales that day up until that point 10 a.m. in the morning he had to return and everyone left they shut that park down for at least the day and I know that's what he meant by that on top of the fact that it was it was gonna be a story it was gonna be out there now everyone knew about this incident. And I know that he, he also implied that that was going to affect his, you know, financial gain as

well. So. He told you that? He did not. He did not tell me that. I learned that as a viewer. So. Oh, I see. I see. Did he take care of you financially after you lost your arm? No, no. I didn't ask him to. I didn't care for the money. I wanted back on park. I wanted to just keep doing, you know, what I have sacrificed so much for. I wanted that. And it was really just sort of a verification for me that this is what I want, you know.

So that's what I was focused on. There was no financial compensation from Joe, no. And you never thought to sue or anything like that because you wanted to stay working there? Not really just because I wanted to stay working there but I didn't ever look at finance or or suing or compensation as anything that I wanted to pursue just because it took away from being able to work you know being able to interact with these animals and not to say that Joe's the only place I could have done that at but it was the place that I was doing it at, you know, and I was doing it there for almost three years up until that point. So, yeah.

When you watched the Netflix documentary, was that real? Did it show the truth or a slice of the truth or what was that? Yeah, no. As far as the lives of the people, yes. There was a lot of, you know, they sensationalized a lot of things as far as housing. You know, there was housing provided for the employees. It wasn't trashed housing. But the employees trashed it. I mean, everyone's an adult and they live the way they want.

So, yeah, it was crazy to see it kind of highlighted the worst of the worst, you know. But as far as the people, it was spot on. That's exactly who they are. When you heard the jury verdict that Exotic was found guilty, do you think they got it right or wrong? Yeah, no, I mean, it was obviously right as far as, you know, the wildlife convictions, and then there was no going around the murder for hire, you know. I knew that that was gonna, it was gonna drop on his head, but, you know, I've known Joe since 2010, and even before 2010, Joe had an issue with Carol, and he's been talking the way he's talked, you know, on that documentary about Carol since I met him and probably before that.

So I definitely know he was encouraged. You know, he's got to have been pushed into going this far. It was like the straw that broke the camel's back, you know. So it's just unfortunate the way it played out. What are you doing now, Saf? What am I doing now? What do you do now? Yeah, up until about two weeks ago,

I was working just a regular warehouse job here in Redlands, California, until they shut us down because of the COVID. Yeah, I was just trying to get back to life, you know? Took a minute to find myself and get back to life, you know. Took a minute to find myself and get back to life and move on. The bills don't, you know, bills don't wait around for anybody, neither does life, so. Why did you leave Exotic? I genuinely was there for a reason. I was there to, I mean, I keep saying it, to fight the fight. For me and my future, you know, whether it's people or not,

I wanted these animals to be a part of that all the time. I wanted to interact with them, and I wanted my kids to not only see them in picture books or read about them like dinosaurs, you know, I want them to be able to touch feel see and and that was honestly why I stuck it out you know for for the for the animals I mean for everything that I was able to do there I left because I mean I didn't see that being a progressively positive thing for the animals I, I invested so much of myself in that park and in that experience. I invested, you know, blood, sweat, tears in my left hand. And in the end I realized that I don't even know what's good or best for these animals. I have no idea. Still, till today, I don't know. And again, if I'm not a part

of the solution, I'm part of the problem. But what was the straw that broke the camel's back? Why did you one day leave? Yeah, I had a conversation with Joe after coming back from a road trip. And it was unfortunately the day that his husband killed himself. So it was just a bad conversation during a bad time about, you know, bad things. So that's when I decided to walk away and I never looked back. Now, Saf, you know, you can't just say that to me. I may not ask you, what are you talking about? A bad conversation about bad things and you leave your dream job. What bad things? I told him, I mean, I basically just kind of called him out on the entire experience.

I mean, 10 years of my life. So where is this going? What is our mission? What are we focusing on? You know, is there anything that we're doing to change? Are we going to go from quantity to quality? Are we going to change the fact that, you know, we don't have enough staff members to cover the amount of work that needs to be done? We don't have the resources to provide,

you know? What are we going to do about this? Nothing. I got nothing. I couldn't do it. Well, what did he say? I mean, I know the animals were going hungry. I know there were not enough workers. Right. What about that road show made you confront him? The road trip that I took, it was a personal trip for me. And I kind of just did some reflecting as far as what am I doing with my life, you know? Am I really making a difference or am I just being selfish because I get to love and hug on tigers every day? And the conclusion I came to was I'm being absolutely selfish if I don't at least speak up you know they can't speak up for themselves I gotta say something if not it's just wasted time

so you come back you confront him about what lack of food lack of workers just everything like a room I don't know how you keep a tiger in that cage when they want to be free and did he give any answer did he curse you out what happened oh yeah there was there was some very choice words nancy um but for the most part he wasn't even focused on that and again like i said it was bad timing but i had to get get it out. He wasn't focused on it. He didn't hear me. He didn't care. It was all about what he had just lost, what he had just gone through.

And that was, you know, that was the end of the conversation. I never looked back. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When you look back on your time with Joe Exotic, what mental image, what vivid image stays in your mind of Joe Exotic? Yeah, desperate. You know, I see just desperation every day. You know, I used to think it was like motivation and a driving force.

You know, Joe figured out. He'll always figure it out, you know. And now I realize it was always just reaching, man, just constantly reaching for things just out of his reach, you know. That's what I see. I have one last thing to ask you. I read an account where Exotic would whip the baby tigers to train them. And that was from an eyewitness. Is that true?

Yeah, it is. It is. He believed in tools. So, yeah, he would always have a whip on stage. Obviously, you guys know we carried guns on park. So yeah, it is. It's how he, it was his way of showing us how to work with these babies, you know, and he did. He did it in front of people. He was trying to teach them. Thankfully, I came up with my own way. You know, and he did. He did it in front of people. He was trying to teach them. Thankfully, I came up with my own way. You know, I never used a whip, not once. But even babies whip babies, baby tigers? He did. He did. He used it. And don't get me wrong, he wasn't whipping them. It's, you know, it's a horse whip, so that's why it's called a whip.

It's more of a touch type of thing. It's still unnecessary. I mean, you genuinely don't need it, in my opinion. I've worked with tigers without one, so yeah. Well, if there's nothing wrong with it, why didn't you do it? I just didn't. I didn't need to. I honestly didn't need to. I mean, these animals are so smart, man. And they're giving this to you. You know, you're not making them do it. You can't make a full-grown tiger do anything. I've got to disagree with you, Seth. I don't think there's anything good about putting a whip on a baby tiger. No.

I'm glad you didn't. There's nothing good about it. Right. Right. Yeah, there's nothing good about it. I just, like I said, you know, you can get things done by just forming a bond with these animals. I mean, I think that was the biggest draw for me is that these animals were willing to work with me. They were willing to be in my presence.

That is amazing. You know, you don't get that from humans. Humans are different. Do you think other people are going to be charged? For instance, if Exotic was convicted of illegally selling endangered species, somebody had to be buying them. The staff had to know what was going on and enable it.

Other people working unlicensed zoos, do you think there are going to be more charges down the road? I mean, I'm sure if they dig deep enough, they're going to find a lot more players in this. Yes, I mean, the entire animal industry is connected. Every single person is connected. There's not a person in America that doesn't have an animal or a cat from one of these other zoos or one of these other sanctuaries. There's not a person. So, yes. What are your words to Exotic today? What are your words to him now? Yeah, you know, I don't really have much to say to him.

I wouldn't want to see him die in prison, but I wouldn't want anyone to die in prison. I knew Joe personally for 10 years, and that's where I leave our relationship. I mean, you've got to, every time you look down at your left hand, you've got to remember the conditions at the zoo and the way the animals were treated. I mean, that's a forever reminder of what you went through and what the animals went through. Right, and it's also a forever reminder of what I sacrificed for them.

So it works hand in hand, I guess. Is it true that Joe Exotic gave you a handful of documents to sign when you left the hospital? No, no, that was definitely misconstrued. They asked me how do I know my hand was still functional? And I said, because I was still able to write my name. I wrote it just on a piece of like hospital paper. I wrote my name out just to prove that I was still able to use my hand before they amputated it. So it was definitely misconstrued into, oh man, he made him sign

things. No, I didn't, I didn't i didn't sign anything you know okay if you had to give me your best estimate how many tigers or animals because i know there were more than tigers yeah did joe exotic kill best guess right over the period of of 10 years that I was present, man, 100 easily. Easily. And again, it's not all big cats. What else? What other animals? It was anything that he needed a cage for, Nancy.

If he needed a cage that a wolf was in, that wolf had to go. If he needed a cage that a raccoon was in, that raccoon had to go. It was anything that Joe was all about. But need the cage for it was anything that need the cage for what saff what need for more animals you know for more animals that he thought was going to be more beneficial to him if he had four cages that had raccoons in it and he had an opportunity to get in to get an animal in that he didn't have on park yet three of those cages are going to have raccoons in it and the other one's not you know it's as simple as that i mean joe joe's not complicated one bit it was it was it was

opportunity and and selfish you know it was greed so he would kill them to make more money he not all the time he wouldn't always kill Unfortunately, there was a lot of times where he would just, if it was a raccoon, he'd let it go. He'd just let it go. Yeah. So you think over the time you were there, he, Joe Exotic, killed about 100 animals easy. What do you think about the possibility of a presidential pardon for Joe Exotic? Right.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's up to the president, I guess. Well put. You know, Saf, I wish you nothing but good things. All good things for you. I appreciate that. Thank you.

The Tiger King. The investigation goes on.