Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Love behind bars: Women who marry convicted killers

Episode Date: April 11, 2018

People find love in strange places, but falling for a convicted killer serving a life prison sentence is perhaps the strangest. Nancy Grace looks at Jodi Arias's prison romances and the marriages of Charles Manson, the Menendez brothers and other killers. She is joined by forensics expert Karen Smith, New York psychologist Caryn Stark and RadarOnline.com reporter Alexis Tereszcuk Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guys, what happened to a D.C. intern, Chandra Levy? She gets her dream internship in D.C. and immediately, allegedly, catapults into a sex relationship with a U.S. congressman. That's allegedly. But what I do know is Chandra Levy was murdered. Why has the only real suspect in the Chandra Levy murder seemingly disappeared? Thursday night on A&E, 11 o'clock Eastern, 11 p.m. Eastern, Grace vs. Abrams, bombshell. Please join us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, channel 132.

Love Behind Bars. It sounds like a cheesy movie or something that you get on pay-per-view, but it's real. How do people like the Menendez brothers, Charles Manson, Scott Peterson, Jorn Vandersloot, even Jody Arias, somehow managed to find a love life behind bars. Even getting married, engaged, sending money, valentines, love letters, you name it. How does it happen? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. The love behind bars phenomena goes on.

With me, Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com. Karen Stark, renowned New York psychologist. Forensics expert, Karen Smith. And veteran defense attorney, Jason Oceans. Alexis Tereschuk, first to you. You investigated Jodi Arias with RadarOnline.com. Let me just give you a tiny taste of what Jodi Arias has to offer from behind bars. my parents are asleep, I'd let you ride in my bedroom, we'd shut and lock the door, and then we'd just have a big, and go at it all night. Oh, excuse me, baby.

I'm gonna be there in a minute. You make me so horny. They seriously think about having sex with you every day. Several times a day. I get a hug and I'll have your f***ing tape inside of me and I remember it

and I'm all dead again. So, Alexis Therese Chuck, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter, that's just a tidbit of some of Jodi Arias' phone calls,

her X-rated phone calls. That was with her murder victim, Travis Alexander. So, apparently, she's still luring men even though she's got a life sentence behind bars what can you tell me alexis about jody arias love life her love life is almost as active behind bars as it was outside she has scores of men that are writing to her they They're sending her love letters. They are also sending her money. They're putting it in her account so that she has hundreds and hundreds, thousands of

dollars in her commissary account. And she goes crazy buying everything that she can in the commissary. And it's because these men think that she is innocent. They think she's going to get out of jail. They propose marriage to her. They send dirty messages. She has even a plan. She was writing with an ex-boyfriend and the two of them had a plan for her to have a baby behind bars. Wait, stop, stop, stop, stop. I was listening to all of the Jodi Arias X-rated phone sex tapes, but then I heard the word baby what baby what baby she has this ex-boyfriend and he the two of them came up with some scheme that they would get together they would have sex conjugal visit and that she would get pregnant behind bars okay what can you tell me about jody love letters and the weird odd reason men are quote love struck by Jodi Arias explain to me this

so she's beautiful people she has gorgeous hair she's gorgeous eyes she is flirty she's cute and men are so attracted to her still and they think that she's this helpless little girl that is behind bars that they are going to rescue. Like they're going to be a knight in shining armor and they're going to rescue Jodi Arias. Plus, she's also like a vixen in the bedroom. Everybody knows from the trial, there's nothing she won't do in the bedroom

and they have acting out their fantasies with her. Take a listen to Jodi Arias speaking of love and sex fantasies. you were amazing. You made me, seriously, you made me feel like a goddess. Like, I wasn't saying you were, like, worshipping me, but you were, you made me feel like I was the most freaking beautiful woman on the whole planet. Like, I so felt like I was the goddess. And so, aside from all those warm, fuzzy feelings, but, like, it was so so sexy and it was so hot

and oh gosh interesting arius's interest, one of them. But we know this. Less than 24 hours after Arias brutally shoots and stabs Travis dead, she was acting, quote, sexually aggressive and, quote, acting normal when she shows up at a brand new boyfriend's home in Utah. Now, we're not just spinning this. This is testimony, sworn testimony from the witness stand. It was Ryan Burns, then 32, then dating Arias.

And they had met at a conference, a work conference. Arias planned to visit him after weeks of phone calls and texts that were turning into a long-distance relationship. And with just hours after murdering, brutally murdering Travis Alexander, she hops, literally gets in bed with Burns and hops on top of him, straddling him and kissing him. This is just hours after murdering Travis Alexander. So Karen Stark, renowned New York psychologist joining us. How does that mindset play into Arias finding love behind bars?

Well, I don't think that it's the same at all, Nancy. Her finding love behind bars has to do with the people that fall in love in a situation like this. And most of the time, it's someone who has attachment issues. They're not able to have a relationship with somebody who's available to them. It's so much easier for them to have a relationship where there are restrictions, where they know the other person can't go anywhere. So in a way, they're in control and they don't have to have anything that's real. It could be more like a fairy tale. You could turn that other person into anyone you want,

and it becomes much safer and secure for them. Well, I guess what I'm referring to is, to me, her behavior of having stabbed and shot Travis Alexander and leaving his body to rot in his shower, and then within a couple of hours driving to the next new boyfriend and literally hopping on top of him is a cold and calculated behavior and I would imagine that type of manipulation is what she's doing behind bars Alexis Tereschuk exactly she is able to communicate with people she has a poisonous pen that she writes to these men with and she flirts with them and she sends, she's an artist, she's sending drawings and these men are falling for it. And they still, still are in love with her and still support her and she's still manipulating people from behind bars. Well, they're falling for it. Karen Smith, when I'm a forensics expert,

joining me out of the Florida jurisdiction, Karen Smith, when I say cold and calculated, it's like a black widow, a spider in a web. She kills Travis Alexander's, I recall, 20 plus stab wounds and then a gunshot wound to the head, leaves him there when he rejects her what happened is i recall the testimony karen and you've followed it closely they had a love slash sex relationship he broke up he asked another woman to go on a cancun trip with him arias drives hours across the desert with gas cans full of gas in her car leaving leaving no trail, which says to me she intended to kill him. Goes in and has a marathon day of sex with Travis Alexander. And then when he refuses to disinvite the new woman on the vacation, she stabs him 20 plus times and shoots him in the head and leaves him.

Crosses the desert again to get to her new boyfriend and literally hops on top of him. When I say cold and calculated, please, Karen Smith, you're the forensics expert, describe the Travis Alexander murder scene. I would qualify it as a frenzy, Nancy. It was very, very bloody. There was impact spatter in a number of locations.

Travis Alexander was found slumped in a small shower stall. He had been stabbed somewhere between 27 and 29 times. Even the medical examiner couldn't count them all. And then he was shot in the head, probably post-mortem as a coup de grace. His jugular vein, his carotid artery, his trachea were all sliced open. In other words, she slit his throat from, you know, side to side and left him there. It was an extraordinarily bloody scene. There were a lot of forensics that were collected at the scene. And, you know, this just goes to show that when you stab somebody 27 to 29 times, that goes to show somebody's mental state when they go to this house. She drove across the desert. She goes to the house. She stabs him all of these times and then shoots him in the head. You tell me what somebody's thinking writing love letters to a person like that.

I don't know. Listen to testimony at Jodi Arias' murder trial regarding her very active love life. She also says in this message, you are the ultimate slut in bed. What did that mean to you? Is there some history behind that? Yes. What's that mean to you? Was there some history behind that? Yes.

What's that history? Sometimes he would call me that when we were having sex. Is that one of those things that made you feel special, or how did you feel when he would refer to you as a slut in bed? Well, he wasn't saying it as an insult, so I just felt, I don't really remember how I felt, but I just knew that he was enjoying himself. He says he wants to send one down your throat and another on your face. What did that mean to you? Um, oral sex and...

Ejaculating in you? and... Ejaculating in you? Yeah. Yes. Yes. He also says you're going to get taken like you have never been taken before. What did that mean to you? um

we were always trying to top ourselves like go a little bit farther than the last time and usually he would come up with some creative ideas so most of the time I was game for it most of the time

you were what? Game. Okay. But how about feeling like you've been raped, but you enjoyed every delightful moment of it? Did you want to feel like you were raped? No. so you're accurate here he also says

you'll rejoice in being a whore that sole purpose in life is to be mine to have animal sex with, and to please me in any way I desire. Was it your ultimate goal in life to be Mr. Alexander's whore? No. Based on what you said before, you were interested in the fond and affectionate feelings you got from him being happy, right? Certainly. Not being his whore?

Well, I mean, that wasn't like how I would have put it, but that's... That's how he put it, right? Joining me right now is renowned defense attorney Jason Oceans. Jason, even knowing what we know about the murder of travis alexander notorious killer jody arias reportedly finds love behind bars and is even has even been planning a prison wedding as she serves life behind bars for murdering her boyfriend she apparently has fallen in love with one of her many admirers and has been planning according to reports a fairy tale wedding behind bars she is drowned with messages from men

gets marriage proposals on a weekly basis she hopes to wed somebody and is said to want family and friends to join at the jail for the wedding. And, in fact, they do have weddings behind bars, about a 15-minute wedding held in the prison cafeteria with cupcakes for a wedding cake. Okay, Jason Oceans, help me out. What man in his right mind would be interested in marrying Jodi Arias or even exchanging love letters and is it legal Jason yeah no harm no foul notwithstanding uh the severity of anyone's crime notoriety for prisoners both locally and nationally attracts the uh the whack pack if you will uh and uh

wait what did you just say? It attracts the whack pack. The whack pack. W.H.A.C.K. Pack. Yeah, that's that's a group of followers of Howard Stern. And it's been commented on that one of the regulars communicates with Jody Arias. So, you know, strange people attract strange, you know, pen pals. But by the same token, to some degree, it gives those inside something to do, keeps them occupied and engaging, perhaps not in, you know, other criminality within the prison system, assaults and things of that nature. I don't, I don't find anything from a legal perspective wrong with consensual visits. It's certainly, you know, I don't know that it's encouraged, but every, every prison, as you know, provides for that. And as you mentioned, wedding ceremonies. So it's strange and wacky. Well, the jail has stated, Jason Oceans, that they don't know anything about a prison wedding yet.

But apparently, Jodi Arias has a very active love life and is getting thousands of dollars from these lovelorn men. Alexis Tereshchuk, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com. How is this happening? Is she still drawing her so-called art, i.e. sketching over other people's stuff? Is she still doing her art? And I'm more interested in, do you think a wedding, a jailhouse wedding is possible for Arias? She is still doing her art. Now, she's not allowed to sell it anymore because then she would have to give the proceeds to Travis's family. And she doesn't want to do that.

So she is drawing for people and secretly sending it out. So she could be drawing anything these days. She could draw her own nude body if she wanted to. Why did you have to put that in my head, Alexis? For Pete's sake, I was right in the middle of sipping some hot tea, and you had to talk about Arius drawing her own nude body. I mean, really? She is all about sex, and that is probably the only thing that she has to still share with people. And because we don't get to see her anymore, she's locked up in this maximum security prison.

She still is in the maximum limit. She hasn't earned any good favors, so she hasn't been lowered down any lower behind bars. Arizona is one of the strictest prison systems in the country, and they are not going to allow her to have conjugal visits or get married behind bars. Okay, take a listen to Jodi Arias. areas. Oh my gosh. what's that i'm gonna tie you to a tree oh my gosh that is so debasing i like it we are now crossing the country more strange prison marriages how can people have love lives behind bars especially when you're convicted of double murder no i'm not talking about jody arias i'm talking now about the menendez brothers

to alexis teres chuck investigative reporter radar online.com i mean have they been married and divorced and remarried yeah do i have that straight rip? Am I getting my murderers mixed up? Nope, you're not. It's hard with two brothers. The one, Eric, got married to a woman. He's still married. But then Lyle got married to a model in 1996. They got divorced.

A model? Yeah, a former model. Now, see, you and I may have different terms, different definitions of what a model is. Now, there are models that model their hands. There aren't models that, you know, they're on the front of Vogue. Then there are models that are like standing in the window of sexy lingerie, enter at your own risk through the back door. So what kind of model are you talking about, Alexis? She did a couple of photo shoots she she's not Cindy Crawford

or Kate Moss well I gotta give her this I mean I haven't done any modeling photo shoots so I'll give her that much so tell let's get off the modeling question and on to the marriage question so she married Lyle in 1996 they started out as pen pals they got married and then they got divorced and he actually got married again in 2003. Not even 10 years later, he had moved on to another woman and got married. Let's review the facts of the Menendez brothers' murders. Lyle and Eric Menendez were convicted of murdering their mother and their father brutally as the mother and father sat in front of the tv set watching tv and having a bowl of ice cream they were shot multiple times the mother tried to get

away and they chased her down a hall and continued to shoot her they were born with silver spoons in their mouths and they immediately after the shootings went out bought multiple brand new cars got a full-time tennis coach to help them with their tennis game one bought a condo i mean it just goes on and on and on uh expensive watches and jewelry in their quote grief is that the way you recall the evidence, Jason Oceans? Yeah, I mean, you know, the evidence is clearly spoken for itself. It was a brutal, brutal murder. That silver spoon led them into a jaded perspective.

And, you know, the attraction of those who are, you know, in the general public attracted to this sickness is mind-boggling, but it relentlessly seems to go forward. The wacky continue to attract the wacky. Now, in their defense, they did claim, Jason, that the father had molested them. One brother also claimed the other brother molested him. I mean, the molestation charges were made. Long story short,

they were convicted of double murder and they have found love behind bars. Your recollection is correct, Jason. So, Alexis Tereschuk, who are the women that have fallen for the Menendez brothers? Lyle's the one that's been married twice. He married Tammy, the former model.

They got married in 1996, which was not long after his case. This is right away. He'd only been in jail a little while. And then they got divorced. So in 2003, he married a woman named Rebecca Sneed. She is unfortunately for Lyleyle and I don't know if he knew this when they got married but California does not allow conjugal visits for people who have a life sentence in prison so they've never been able to consummate their marriage they don't have

children together and it's all they can visit each other in person and they can write to each other, but they cannot have sex. I mean, who would want to, Karen Stark? They would want to. They would definitely want to. I mean, what woman in her right mind would want to have sex with a Menendez? Actually, before you answer that question. They're not in their right mind. Lyle Menendez speaking to ABC.

He finds he can have a healthy marriage that is built around conversation. Take a listen to Tammy Menendez speaking now who married Eric Menendez, double killer. I didn't set out to have a relationship with Eric, but it's something that happened. And, you know, I wrote one letter to him and he wrote back and I went to visit

him in prison and our relationship developed and in fact in one of his letters he had written and said that he had a girlfriend for a couple years and I kind of said it's so sad that he thinks he has a girlfriend so I understand where the public's view is coming from but I do get emotional support from Eric he's's my best friend. You'd be surprised how well you can get to know somebody through letters. He became a really good friend of mine. And then after I met him, things, you know, got more and more intense. That is from NBC's Dateline as they interviewed Tammy Menendez. Back to Karen Stark, a New York psychologist. Karen, why would someone want a marriage with Lyle Menendez or Eric Menendez?

There are a number of factors, Nancy, if you think about the fact that these brothers became very famous. And even though they were infamous, that's appealing to a lot of people, just that alone, that they're married to someone who is so well known and has been on television. So that's a factor. There's also the factor that they can't have sex. And so if it's somebody who can't be intimate and has attachment issues, this is perfect. They don't ever really have to engage in the physical act. It's also very safe. These women don't have to wonder about whether their husband is cheating on them. Where is he right now? They know exactly where he is. And they're safe in terms of not having to be with each other every day, deal with issues that all married couples have to deal with.

You know, does the cup stay in the sink or go in the dishwasher? You know, the things that everyone has to deal with living with another person. This is all pretty much perfect in terms of their needs. During the visit, there's no just holding hands, and you can kiss when you come into the visiting room and when you leave. You know, is she crazy? Is she nuts?

You know, I get all that. And so it has been a very emotional experience. The only one that supports me is my mother, and his family is supportive. But other than that, it is very difficult. That is from NBC's Dateline as they interviewed Tammy Menendez. She has married Eric. They've never spent time outside of prison walls. But according to her, that does not limit their love. Karen Stark, let me ask you, what are the benefits of being married to a

murderer who is doing life behind bars? Well, if you think about it, Nancy, she never has to deal with the kinds of things that people normally have to deal with in a relationship. So her relationship with Eric can always stay in this best friend mode that she's talking about. It can stay in the early stages when you're first with someone and you're very intoxicated before you actually get down to the business of knowing another person. And it's just very appealing for some people who can't have normal relationships. This is very appealing and safe. Take a listen to Tammy Menendez speaking now, who married Eric Menendez, double killer. I'm not a killer. I never was. It's not who I am.

But you killed your parents. That's true, but I'm not a murderer. It troubles me, but I do know the person that Eric is, and I know his heart. I know his soul, and I do know what happened that night, and I do understand. I believe that within everybody, put in certain circumstances, you will, you know, be able to kill somebody. I mean, I do believe that Eric is a very good person. So bottom line, what she's saying is that everybody can be a killer. Karen Smith, take a listen to this 911 call tonight

that the Menendez mom and dad were brutally murdered. What's the problem? I'm trying to kill my parents. Are we shocked? Yes. To Karen Smith, forensics expert joining us. Karen, could you describe the murder scene at the Menendez home? Yes. You talk about cold-blooded murder. Jose and Kitty Menendez were in their living room. They were relaxing. And the two brothers burst in with a 12 gauge shotgun. And Jose was gunned down point blank in the back of his head, making him nearly unrecognizable. Kitty was shot in the leg as she tried to run away. She slipped in her own blood and was gunned down in the arm, chest,

and face as she lay helpless on the floor. And something I'd like to point out, these brothers planned the attack. They bought the shotgun in advance with a fake ID, but this is a 12-gauge shotgun. This isn't a handgun, a revolver. A 12-gauge shotgun requires you to rack another round into that shotgun before you can pull the trigger again. So think about that. You fire the gun. You have to re-rack it, aim it, fire, re-rack it, aim it, and fire every single time they pumped a round into their own parents. I cannot imagine going into a crime scene more heinous than that.

To Jason Oceans, veteran defense attorney, practicing out of New York, New Jersey, and the entire tri-state area. Jason, how, I mean, how could have you ever seen or known of a woman being attracted to somebody already convicted behind bars?

Jailhouse girlfriends and so forth? We've seen them, but normally they were in existence before the murder. No, it's as Dr. Stark, as Karen tells you, there's an incredible fascination with the disturbed. It's gone on for years. It's a sick phenomenon. I understand the psychology of why people are attracted, but once you've been engaged in such a heinous type of act, it boggles the mind as to why people engage in something like this. Take a listen to this.

This is Tammy Menendez talking about her marriage to double killer Eric Menendez. I never had that before. You realize with all due respect that a lot of people think you're nuts? Oh, yes. I've heard it before many times. If I just say to you why, what do you say? My answer to that is I fell in love with him unexpectedly. And it's quite a long journey that led me to there. And now I'm very happy.

Have you ever had sex with Eric? No. Your marriage has never been consummate? No. When you see Eric, are you allowed to kiss him? We can hug and kiss on the way out and hold hands during the visit. And the holding of the hands during the visit is everything. I can't offer her most of the things that another husband can in terms of being with her physically and being able to hold her in that sense.

What I can offer her is unconditional and complete devotion and love. She is everything. You were hearing Barbara Walter speaking with Mrs. Menendez, and that was Menendez himself on the phone. That's Barbara Walters from ABC. It's beyond anything I can understand. Not the fact that, I mean, there are married couples, couples of all sorts all over the world

who can't consummate their relationship due to illness, due to someone being paralyzed, due to all sorts of mental or physical issues. There are people separated by distance, thousands of miles apart that are in love. So conjugal visits are not the be-all end-all to to true love to me the hurdle is getting past the double murders of your mother and father but the menendez brothers and jody arias are really the tip of the iceberg what about charles manson about Charles Manson? Because I love him. And somehow I've got half a brain that I can see that he is the one that knows what's going on.

He is the one that is in the truth whenever nobody else is. And... What is it about him compared to other people you've met in your lifetime that makes him so unique and different? Charlie always tells the truth, no matter what. There's so many jailhouse marriages and jailhouse love relationships. I hardly know where to start. But it's like drinking from a fire hydrant.

There's just too much to take in in a single swallow, okay? Let me go to Charles Manson. I didn't even know he had a love relationship behind bars. Joining me right now is Alan Duke. Alan, Charles Manson had a love life behind bars? Well, yes, he did. Now, although he was married twice before the Manson murders and his death sentence, he actually got a marriage license while in prison more recently.

In 2013, he got a marriage license with Afton Elaine Burton, and they never actually went through with the ceremony, so they were not legally married. But she was a groupie who moved to the area near the prison just to be near him and would visit him every moment that she could. It turned out that while he said that it wasn't a real love, a real relationship. It turned out that she wanted to marry him so she could claim his body after his death and put it in a glass case on display for the world to see. So that's another reason for a behind-the-bars marriage. The first Mrs. Charles Manson was Rosalie Jean Willis, a teenage hospital waitress. They tied the knot back in 1955

when Manson was between prison sentences. Okay, that's certainly something to think about. Let me think. They were married, and then it goes on. Six years later, Manson and his cult of groupies, the family, committed their brutal murders. He ends up behind bars again, this time for the rest of his life. But there were future wives. The woman, Afton Elaine Burton, 25 years old at the time, tells Rolling Stone that she and Manson were going to get married. She even moved to California to be near him and would regularly visit him for hours and hours and hours. It's so obvious that Charles Manson was railroaded. She tells CNN she didn't

care what people thought of her. I am Charles Manson's wife. Wife? Are you married? The paperwork hasn't gone through yet, but we already consider each other to be husband and wife. Are you in love? Yeah. Why would I marry somebody if I was... People get married for all kinds of different reasons.

Well, I wouldn't. People think you're crazy. I really don't care. Starr says she first discovered Manson at 16, drawn to something Manson calls ATWA. If you want to breathe air and water and live in harmony, get with it. ATWA stands for air, trees, water, and animals. Did you know that 900 redwood trees get cut down every day?

900 redwood trees at 1,000 years apiece, that's 900,000 years of sunlight you're taking off this planet. The only thing that he's trying to manipulate is planting trees and cleaning up the earth. But after seven years living near Manson's prison, visiting him regularly, Starr's main focus has switched to clearing his name. It's just not a true story. It's completely fabricated. Manson has always maintained his innocence,

and he called Starr from prison before our interview to stress it again. No, I didn't break the law. No, you're a bold and real hostage. You're all but the political prisoner. You're all but the liars. You're all liars. Starr is so loyal that when Manson was tossed into solitary confinement, she shaved her head and carved an X in her forehead. It's a show of support. You know, just like when they did it back in, you know, 1970, whatever. That was Ted Rollins on CNN interviewing the alleged Mrs. Charles Manson.

And, of course, that was Charles Manson going off on saving the environment. But listen to what happened at the time of the Manson murders. In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss Tate and her husband, screen director Roman Poliansky. Miss Tate, who starred in Valley of the Dolls, was eight months pregnant and was found in a bikini-type nightgown with a rope around her neck attached to the body of a man. The sounds of Mr. LaBianca dying came into the bedroom. Horrible, guttural sounds. She started calling out to him and yelling for him and

at that moment, for a brief moment, I realized, you know, these are people that love each other. And then Tex turned me around and handed me the knife, and he said, do something. Because Manson had told him to make sure that all of us got our hands dirty. And I stabbed Mrs. Labianca in the lower back about 16 times.

And there was no pity? No mercy. Where were the bodies found? All in one room? No. Two of the bodies were found inside the house. One in the vehicle and two on the front lawn. Stephen Parent said, please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. I'm on my way out. I won't tell anybody. Just let me live.

And Watson shot him four times at point blank range. And that begins the savagery. When the four killers break into the house, they cut through a screen window and sneak in that way. They find Wotek Frykowski sleeping on a couch in the living room. Back in the bedrooms, Abigail Folger reading a book in bed. Jay Sebring and Sharon Tate in her bedroom

sitting on the bed talking. Tex Watson walked in and he said, I am the devil, and I'm here to do the devil's work. Then Tex says, we're going to kill you. What began to happen is a scuffle the devil's work. Then Tex says, we're going to kill you. What began to happen is a scuffle started taking place between Tex and Jay Sebring. Jay Sebring was very protective of Sharon and said, no.

You know, she's 8 and 1 half months pregnant. She can't sit on the floor. And Watson then stabbed him, shot him, killing him. And then pandemonium broke loose. When there was an attempt to tie everyone up, eventually Abigail Folger started to get herself undone. And she took off.

Abigail Folger, Luchek Frykowski, make a break for it out on the lawn. I left and followed her. I ran after her with an upraised knife. And we went out through a back door. And I ran her down. And I began to stab her. I remember her saying, I'm already dead.

Abigail Folger ended up getting stabbed 28 times. Watson jumped on Frykowski on the lawn, repeatedly stabbed him and hit him over the head with the gun butt. Frykowski ended up getting stabbed 51 times. Susan Atkins stabbed Sharon Tate to death and told her she was going to do it. She talked to the media about killing Sharon Tate.

I felt nothing. I felt absolutely nothing for her. And she begged for her life and for the life of her baby. I never told anybody to do anything other than what they wanted to do. So there is proof that even Charles Manson had love behind bars. Let's turn to Jorn Vandersloot. No jailhouse marriage episode would be complete without that. Jorn Vandersloot, as we all know, murdered Natalie Holloway in Aruba. Natalie Holloway, honor student, who goes on a senior school trip and never comes home. She was murdered. He manages to escape free from Aruba

when Aruba would not proceed with murder charges and murder another young woman, Stephanie Tassiano Flores. He goes to jail for that murder, a brutal murder, where he attacks and kills her, their hotel room, his hotel room covered in blood. As she's lying there dead on the floor, he goes and gets coffee and a Danish and eats it beside her dead, cold body. Well, he goes to jail for that, but behind bars, he manages to get married and not only that, have a baby. What happened, Alan Duke?

He married 25-year-old Leda Figueroa, who was a trainee accountant in Peru. And apparently they were having a relationship behind bars because she ended up getting pregnant and they got married. The baby was born in 2014. That baby is named Dushy, named after Vander Sloot's grandmother. I'm sure the grandmother would be so proud. We're talking about two-time killer Jorn Vandersloot becoming a father after his wife gives birth to a baby girl. The baby was born in Lima named Dushy by his wife after Jorn Vandersloot's grandmother. He's serving a 28-year prison sentence for killing a business student that he meets in a casino.

But my question is, how does he find love behind bars? Jason Oceans, I know you recall the Jorn Vandersloot case. What can you tell us about the disappearance and death of Natalie Holloway, Jason? Well, the student was Natalie Holloway was from Alabama

was down there on a school trip and was seemingly lured away after meeting Jorn and some of his friends and body was never discovered but but everything pointed to to him. So it gained national coverage. And then he escaped and seemingly admitted it at at some point, though he was never prosecuted for it. But and then there was stephanie that's right and then and then you know meets her uh in in the you know a hotel and you know brutally murdered her so and convicted as you said serving time

and you know what's interesting about that jason oceans is that reportedly the argument that brought on the murder is she was looking at her ip or a computer and goes, hey, wait, are you the Jorn Vandersloot that is connected to Natalie Holloway? And he murders her. Now, believe it or not, Jason Oceans, now hold on, Jason, you're the veteran defense lawyer. I need to shrink on this. Karen Stark, New York psychologist. According to Jorn Vandersloot's wife, she says Vandersloot is, quote, gentle, sensitive, kind, and no monster. Help me, Karen. Oh, that's not a surprise. We should know that by now, Nancy. He's a sociopath. He can come up with any personality he desires. And so that's one of the things that happens is women like this fall

for the guy and believe that he is really a gentle soul, that he's been either like just with the Menendez brothers, you know, that there's a reason why this happened to them. They're kind of rescuing these guys and convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with them. And the men help because they can come across beautifully and act like they are perfectly fine and loving and woo you and get you very excited about the idea of being with them. You know, we've been taking a look at marriage and love that convicted killers find behind bars in a kind of an odd way, the way you'd look at a spider in a cage. But let's think about how the victim's families feel about this, The friends and family of the Menendez, the friends and family of Natalie Holloway and Stephanie Tassiano-Flores and the Tate family and the Bianca families. How do they feel about this?

The family of Travis Alexander, the way that even from behind bars, these killers are manipulating the feelings and the lives of others. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.