Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Love, Sex and Marriage BEHIND BARS: Women in love with KILLERS

Episode Date: January 3, 2020

What compels some women to love KILLERS? From the Menendez brothers to Richard Ramirez and more, women are falling in love with convicted murderers.An expert panel joins Nancy Grace to discuss. Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia  Steven Lampley - Former Detective, Author of "Outside Your Door" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst   Dr. Michelle Dupre - Medical Examiner & Author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide”  Levi Page - Investigative Reporter CrimeOnline  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. amazing. I don't understand how you pull that off. You look somebody in the eye and say something that's absolutely not true. And it's an extended lie. And I'm not talking about just playing the field and dating other people. I'm talking about being engaged in planning weddings. Wow. Women are attracted to killers, inmates. I don't get it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How did the relationship start? Well, we went out and I was attracted to this boy and he had a very explorative mind. He contemplated everything and he was excellent at rating people.

And I loved our conversation. He was very supportive of me in the beginning, of my art and of my career. He was just wonderful, attentive, helpful, engaging. Did you see this long term, that he could be the one? Yes, I did. This is bliss. Bliss. Well, I guess that's one way of putting it. That's NBC News Dateline reporter Andrea Canning,

the so-called killer fiancé Patrick Frazee, who bludgeoned his fiancé dead, Kelsey Barrett, with a baseball bat with their little baby girl in the next room. That's one of his many other women on the side. And that's not even the longtime mistress, Crystal E. Kinney, the rodeo queen. You're hearing another girlfriend, Vanessa Curie, talk about her relationship with Patrick Frazee, the killer fiancé. That he cared about her art and her interest. But now, take a listen to what else she says. He would be real attentive and real helpful with advice. And then he would use everything I told him and just tear me down.

But then he'd build me back up again and tell me that he wanted to marry me and that he saw me in a wedding dress and wanted my ring finger to get measured so that we could get married. Why do you build me up just to let me down? Well, at least he didn't slug you in the head with a baseball bat, Vanessa. At least you got that going for you. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You're hearing a little insight into why women are attracted to killers, inmates. I don't get it, but they are with me on an all-star panel. Daryl Cohen, renowned defense attorney out of the city of Atlanta. Steve Lampley, detective and author of Outside Your Door.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining me right now from Beverly Hills. Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. And Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. First to you, Levi. So I've got a trail of tears left behind by Patrick Frazee. Vanessa Curie, you just heard her talking about her love for him, how he was so into her and interested in her art. I don't think that's what he was interested in. But he was even talking about getting fitted for an engagement ring and a wedding dress the duplicitous nature of Patrick Frazee is amazing I don't understand how you you pull that off you look somebody in the eye and say something that's absolutely not true and it's an extended lie and

I'm not talking about just playing the field and dating other people, talking about being engaged in planning weddings. Wow. So what do we know about not only this woman, Vanessa Curie, but also the rodeo queen, Crystal Lee Kinney? Well, Crystal Lee Kinney, Nancy, was a nurse. She had gotten into a relationship with Patrick Frazee while he was married to another woman in 2006 and had a relationship with him off and on until the murder of Kelsey Barrett. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you say he was married to another woman? You are correct. So he was married to another woman when he met the rodeo queen.

See, I had my dates wrong. I thought he was with Kelsey at the time he met Crystal Lee Kin queen. See, I had my dates wrong. I thought he was with Kelsey at the time he met Crystal Lee Kinney. Okay, correct me. I want to hear all about it. Who's this woman he was married to? We don't know much about her, Nancy. We just know that he was married

and that's when she got into a relationship. I don't blame her. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, that's certainly not anything you want to brag about at the grocery store. I'd hide under the bed, too, if I had been married to Patrick Frazee. Really? But you know what it tells me, Nancy, is the mindset of these women who fall in love with killers.

There was a very famous prison study where women were interviewed about the nature of the crimes the men had committed, men that they had fallen in love with who were behind bars, and most of the women claimed to not know the men's rap sheet. They didn't know. They refused to put their thoughts together about it. So the fact that she fell in love with him while he's married does not surprise me. It's a part of the whole psychology of these women who are prison mate groupies. I'm trying to soak in what you just said,

because it seems akin to me about when you know your husband is abusive, but you don't really want to confront it. You know, you suspect he's cheating, but you don't want to know. You don't like it if he yells at the children, but you turn a blind eye to it, to drinking, to drugging, to whoring, blah, blah. You don't want to know because it messes up your worldview. And talk about tipping the apple cart. You know, if you confront it head on, you got to break the whole relationship up. You've got to move. You've got to get out of the house. It's just a big, big catastrophe. So maybe it's easier for some people to just turn a blind eye. Let's take it one step further to Daryl Cohen, a renowned defense attorney out of the Atlanta

jurisdiction. Daryl Cohen, how many times have, well, you were a prosecutor along with me in inner city atlanta then you went to the dark side defense how many times in on either side of the fence daryl have you seen and typically it's a man who is the ringleader and women follow blindly along sometimes it's the other way you know you remember sante and kenneth kimes the mother-son con team that turned into killers. The son followed along behind the mom. But usually I see women following along in criminal behavior with the man. How many times have you seen it? It's like they don't know what's going on, but there's no way they don't know what's going on, Daryl Cohen. Well, I've seen it numerous times, Nancy, but there's an old adage that men marry women because they like the way they are, and women marry men because they want to change them.

So I think much of this has to do with— Oh, whoa, whoa, wait. Hold on. Just one second, Cohen. Yeah. Cohen, I know you got your JD, but I don't think you have your MD in psychiatry. But thank you for the armchair psychotherapy. Just FYI.

Okay, actually, you're right about my husband. I love to try to change him. So far, it hasn't worked, but I'm still working on it. Go ahead, please. Well, I mean, that's just sort of part of it. I think the other part of it is these women have a very low self-esteem. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. How can you actually with a straight face, when someone is a killer, as a matter of fact,

and you have low self-esteem? Seriously? Okay, take a listen to what we know about the so-called Rodeo Queen, because she was a Rodeo Queen. She actually won the title. Levi Page, I'll let you look that up the title at a rodeo she was a nurse a mom married at one time crystal lee kenny talk about low self-esteem boy you you really bit off more than you can chew daryl cohen listen patrick

frazee is charged with killing kelsey bar, his fiancee and mother of their child. The Woodland Park mom was last seen on this Safeway surveillance video on Thanksgiving Day. Prosecutors say Frazee blindfolded Kelsey to smell candles and guess the scent and then beat her to death with a baseball bat and burned her body. Prosecutors told the jury this is a case of a cold calculated manipulator and while showing a photo of Frazee called him the face of a killer. We learned the trial hinges on cell phone records, trace amounts of blood evidence calculated manipulator and while showing a photo of Frazee called him the face of a killer. We learned the trial hinges on cell phone records, trace amounts of blood evidence and testimony from Idaho nurse Crystal Lee Kenny. Without a body, Crystal is the state's star witness.

She told investigators she tried to kill Kelsey three times at Patrick's request but couldn't go through with it. She says that's when Frazee took matters into his own hands and she drove down from Idaho to clean up a bloody mess in Kelsey's apartment. The defense is doing everything it can to discredit Crystal and create reasonable doubt since much of the evidence is circumstantial. You're hearing ABC Denver 7 reporter Jennifer Kowalewski. Daryl Cohen, low self-esteem. Bethany Marshall, don't know his rap sheet.

What? He asked her to kill somebody three times. Cohen, what does that have to do with low self-esteem? And then she comes back to the home, drives for four hours, and cleans up a murder scene. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She was in love with him from a very young age. Patty and Joe Rockstall say one of their employees, who was Crystal Lee's best friend, told them that Lee and Patrick Frazee had a relationship that began just after high school. She was very vulnerable, and I think she cared for him, and he took advantage of that. He was her first love, I understand, and he had a hold on her. The Rockstalls say they were told Lee, a nurse from Idaho and mother,

visited Frazee as recently as November, the month his fiancee Kelsey Barrett vanished. They claim their employee says Frazee threatened Lee, and she may have helped him dispose of evidence. Do you know what the threats were? Patrick told Crystal that little girls go missing off the playground all the time. Crystal was so scared. He was so angry that he said things that made Crystal think he had killed before. So, of course, she's going to be terrified.

Okay, so terrified she didn't go to police. You're hearing our friend Nikki Batista at CBS News. She drove hours and hours to clean up a bloody, drenched crime scene, Daryl Cohen, and you're actually saying it's because of low self-esteem? Did you say that? Well, I'm also saying, Nancy, that she drank some Kool-Aid. Oh, now you're changing your story. The Kool-Aid, I guess that would be that he claimed Kelsey had abused their baby. That is absolutely not true. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills,

what do you mean by low self-esteem? And how can these women say they're, quote, in love with killers? She had to know he's a killer. Well, these women also have a mixture of grandiosity. They feel that they are the only important one in the man's life. And one of the theories about why women fall in love with killers fits right in line with the rodeo queen's motivation is that these women fall in love with men who have brutal animosity towards other women. So they take pleasure in the fact that the man has raped a woman, tortured a woman, killed a woman.

It's as if it's like a sick love triangle. And in loving the man who killed the other woman, it's like getting the love rival out of the way. So I think this was part of Crystal Lee's motivation is that she grew to hate the other woman. She thought about killing the other woman. And when the other woman was finally bludgeoned to death, she cleaned up the mess. She wanted that woman gone. She wanted her out of the way. I'm still obsessed. She got such a sweet deal to Stephen Lampley, detective author of Outside Your Door. Stephen Lampley, Crystal Lee Kinney, the rodeo queen slash mistress of killer fiance Patrick Frazee says that she left clues behind for detectives to find. I find that very hard to believe. She wanted detectives to figure it out. She sat there for weeks on end

watching the 6 o'clock news. She could have just called them and told them. She claims she secretly left some blood for them to find or a tooth of Kelsey's that was knocked out of her mouth when Frazee beat her in the head with a baseball bat with the baby next door, by the way.

So, I find it really hard to believe her altruistic motives. Yeah, Nancy, and I don't know that I do either. Is it possible? Yes, I don't know that. I didn't read that anywhere, and I didn't see that on any news broadcasts that they found anything like that. But she wants to make herself look, as you said, altruistic. And I did leave this so they could find it, but I don't know that they ever found anything. Actually, they did find blood. The brother of Kelsey Barrett

came over and he said, this must be what you're talking about, Steve. He said he walked in, everything looked fine and perfectly in order, just like Kelsey would have left it. And you know what? I'm going to get with you after our program, Dr. Bethany, because I can't leave the house unless the kitchen is clean. There's nothing in the sink. The beds are made up. I'm sure there's something really wrong with that. But Kelsey left everything neat as a pin, except there were some cinnamon rolls she had just made. And they were sitting out on the kitchen counter uncovered. And everybody knows that a bread will dry up if you leave it out, just sitting there in the air. That doesn't sound like her.

But he sat down on the commode. And he saw on the lip of the commode, is my understanding, some blood. He saw that. He immediately called police. And they did find one of Kelsey's teeth. But at the very beginning, Steve, nobody could see anything. I mean, Crystal Lee Kinney did a pretty good job. To Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me, medical examiner and author of an incredible piece of work, Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I think every

single practicing criminal lawyer, what kind of force would it take to knock somebody's tooth out of their head with a baseball bat? And what would that do to the person's skull? I'm talking about the mom, Kelsey Barrett. Nancy, that could be a devastating injury. The force that's needed to do that with the baseball bat is really significant. The damage to the skull could be devastating. I mean, it could be fatal, actually. It could be such of a skull fracture that it would actually be fatal. You know, I'm trying to figure out how much force that would require because people get hit in the head all the time. It happens in sports. It happens at work. But I'm trying to figure out the amount of force, how hard he had to swing like he was hitting a home run on Kelsey

said. Take a listen to Denver CBS 4 reporter Rick Salinger. It was in her Woodland Park condominium that the mother who worked as a pilot and flight instructor was believed murdered. Crystal Lee, the other party to this love triangle, testified this week that Patrick Frazee admitted killing Bereth with a baseball bat. Law enforcement agents searched Frazee's fluorescent ranch several times and found three wooden the car. The two men were in the car. The two agents search Frazee's fluorescent ranch several times and found three wooden baseball bats. They also located part of a tooth. It was beneath some

plastic put over a spot where Crystal Lee said she believed Barrett's body was burned. Lee's father testified that his daughter was at her own home in Idaho on that day where they had dinner. He said he was familiar with Frazee's name from many years ago, saying, I told her I didn't think that I liked him based on what she told me about him. Convincing the jurors that Crystal Lee told the truth is critical for prosecutors.

Late this afternoon, a longtime older friend of Frazee testified that Frazee was asking questions and dropping hints that Kelsey Barrett could disappear. Ooh, dropping hints that Kelsey Barrett could disappear. And it makes me wonder to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me out of LA, did he want her dead? Because as you just heard, she was independent. She bought that town home all on her own with no help from him. She had learned and studied and gone to school to be a pilot. She was raising her child on her own. I doubt he paid a whole lot of child support. I mean, come on, he's living with his mom for Pete's sake. So reality, did he not want her alive because he didn't want her anymore because she was independent, didn't need him? Or you've got all these other women kind of hanging on his every word? Well,

Nancy, you just put your finger on it. The two words, child support. What is an independent woman going to do? Even if she had her own money, she had her pilot's license. She had a condo. But she is also smart and smart enough to get him to step up, pay child support, and be a dad. None of these other women are requiring anything of him. They're hanging on him. They're doing whatever he wants them to do. The rodeo queen is even flirting with the idea of killing her love rival. These are all passive, passive women under his control. But the victim here actually was autonomous. And I wouldn't be surprised

if she was either asking for child support, asking for him to visit the baby, asking for him to step up and be a man in some way. And if he wasn't used to doing that, Matt, he lived with his mother. This is an overgrown baby. This is not a man who really wanted any kind of responsibility in his life. And speaking of his mother, not to blame her, but according to reports, she stood by and watched while Kelsey Barrett's body was burned. Of course, she wasn't on trial. Don't know the truth of that. But hey, it's not just Crystal Lee Kinney, the rodeo queen. There are a lot of women in love with killers. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I never had that before. You realize with all due respect that a lot of people think you're nuts? Oh, yes. I've heard it before many times. If I just say to you why, what do you say? My answer to that is I fell in love with him unexpectedly. And it's quite a long journey that led me to there. And now I'm very happy. Have you ever had sex with Eric? No. Your marriage has never been consummate?

No. When you see Eric, are you allowed to kiss him? We can hug and kiss on the way out and hold hands during the visit. And the holding of the hands during the visit is everything. I can't offer her most of the things that another husband can in terms of being with her physically and being able to hold her in that sense. What I can offer her is unconditional and complete devotion and love she is everything oh you're hearing our friends at abc speaking to the wife of eric menendez the killer who killed his own parents that's tammy menend, who says she's happy with hand-holding. Okay, well, take a listen to this.

What's the problem? I'm trying to kill my parents. Are they shot? Yes. Twelve shots in the middle of Beverly Hills on a Sunday night, and no one calls the police. We're waiting at the house. No one shows up.

And I still can't believe it. I'm sitting on the stairs afterwards thinking the police are going to be there in seconds. They've got roving patrol. And people, many, many people did hear the shots. Many neighbors came in and said they heard all these shots, but nobody called because they just figured this is Beverly Hills. This doesn't happen in Beverly Hills. Oh, well, it did.

The Menendez brothers gunned down their parents. You're hearing not only the 911 call, but a neighbor. Now, take a listen to what Tammy Menendez says about her relationship with Eric Menendez, how it began with a letter and developed from there. During the visit, there's no just holding hands, and you can kiss when you come into the visiting room and when you leave. You know, is she crazy? Is she nuts? You know, I get all that. And so it has been a very emotional experience. The only one that supports me is my mother, and his family is supportive. But other than that, it is very difficult. I guess it is very, very difficult. You're hearing Tammy Menendez speaking to our friends at NBC Dateline. So, okay, here's my next question to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall,

because I really need to shrink on this one. He's convicted. Both brothers are convicted of murdering their parents. Of course, they claim the dad had molested him, although that was never proven. I don't know what their theory is about why they killed their mother, Kitty, but I mean, brutally gunned them down. I think the mom was trying to crawl away and they kept shooting her. How can you not know this? It was on every TV screen and on every newspaper. Dr. Bethany Marshall, how can you turn away from that? Well, it's called disavowal. It's when you see something, but you choose to not put your thoughts together about it. A lot of these women who fall in love with these killers behind bars

have a history of violence in their own family. I don't know if this woman did, but for some reason, because the parents loved them and were violent with them, the idea of power, sex, love, and violence are all fused and confused. They're all melded together in some way. Now, I once interviewed a woman who was a part of a group of women who were prison groupies, and they would wait for the men to come out of prison and do something that they called touching down. And I said, so she with this woman, Misty said, well, when my boyfriend comes out, he's going to touch down. And I'm like, what's touching down?

Well, it's the first time he has had sex since all the years he's been behind bars, as if he's not having sex behind bars, right? So there's this fantasy of the man being completely sexually faithful and not ever with anybody else because they're behind bars. So to Daryl Cohen's low self-esteem part, some of these women feel important because they know where the man is all the time. And they have the fantasy of the man being pure, chaste and only available to them. And a killer. But it goes beyond that. Daryl Cohen, a former prosecutor, now defense attorney throughout America, based in Atlanta. Daryl Cohen, they don't just fall for these guys. Very often they go along with them in their crimes. They're brainwashed. It's beyond belief. They do what they want to do. They do what they think

they should do because he has them and there's power. I mentioned Kool-Aid before. This has happened before. It will continue to happen. There are certain women and certain men that have those characteristics and traits. I'm not a psychologist. I'm just a realist. I see what happens. It makes no logical sense, but it is what it is, and we have to deal with it, and they deal with it. They not only go along with it, they're part of it. They're meshed in the DNA, if you will. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Tammy Mimendez actually wrote a book, and she claimed that she regretted marrying him, that it was hard, the distance between her

and her husband behind bars, and she played the victim. But as you said, Nancy, she had to know all of what he was accused of doing. He was convicted of doing. Why would she do this in the first place? There's actually a syndrome called Bonnie and Clyde syndrome, where they actually get a thrill out of dating inmates because these people live such lonely lives. And I have read dozens of letters of people contacting various high-profile inmates, and a lot of them, they do say in these letters that they write to these inmates, I'm lonely, I'm bored, and I'm writing you, and I hope that you write back. And many of them say, I've written you many times,

and you haven't written me back yet. And the common theme is they're lonely, and they do this to get a thrill from dating behind bars or writing someone behind bars that's accused of evil crimes. You know, that really leads me to another issue, why these women are dating killers or inmates. I guess you can call it dating. To me, it's more of a glorified pen pal but they choose to say that they're dating you know dr bethany marshall

psychoanalyst joining us out of la people do that all the time uh pretend they have a girlfriend or a boyfriend they go oh no that's not a google image or that's my girlfriend in canada but but there's not one. It's like these women really think they're having a relationship. You know, Nancy, that's a fascinating point. Out of all of the articles I've read, that is the one point no one has made. You're absolutely correct. They imbue the relationship with more meaning than is really there, just like stalkers.

You know, the stalker imagines there's a real relationship with the victim, and there's no real relationship with the victim. I have this high-level executive that came into therapy a few months ago. She makes $400,000 a year. She's a single mom. She's successful. She came in ashamed and told me that she had just given $10,000 to somebody online. She'd only known him for a month, a month, and she gave him $10,000.

Within a month, she became convinced that she loved this man and that he loved her. And it's like I had to deprogram her from the relationship. And this was just probably some person in Nigeria or Alaska or somewhere, but she thought it was a real relationship. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Why would anyone marry America's most notorious serial killer? That's the intriguing question being raised by the new movie in which Zac Efron plays the monster Ted Bundy. The movie features scenes involving Bundy's wife, Carol Ann Boone.

The media has convicted Ted before he's had his day in court. The real life Bundy and Boone first became friends when they worked together in Washington State in 1974. Bundy actually proposed to Carol Ann while she was testifying on his behalf at the penalty phase of his murder trial in Florida. Will you marry me? Yes. And I do hereby marry you. That was all that was required for them to be officially married

in the state of Florida. Author Stephen Michaud visited Bundy numerous times on death row. He says he helped arrange the surprising courtroom proposal, even procuring rings from Tiffany and a wedding outfit for Bundy. I went to the men's store and bought Ted some, a pair of khakis and a bow tie and some argyle socks

so he could look spiffy for the occasion. Bundy and Boone even had a daughter, the result of a moment of cloak and dagger intimacy in prison. Carol told me that there were two ways to have sex. One was to sneak into the bathroom, and the other one was behind the water cooler. A recent Netflix documentary featured audio of her speaking about how the baby was conceived. We kept looking out the window.

There's a black guard in the thrill night. And just after the first day, they keep invading the carousel. Carol Ann Boone believed Bundy's claims of innocence for many years. That's our friend Jim Murray at Inside Edition talking about Carol Ann Boone marrying Ted Bundy. He proposed in his death penalty phase the serial killer. I mean, she was sitting in court. She heard all the evidence, Levi Page, and she still accepted the proposal? So, Nancy, this was the murder of Kimberly Lay, a seventh grader, that he was on trial for murdering. This was the penalty phase where he was going to be sentenced to death,

and he called Carol to the stand and asked her to marry him she said yes and there was a public notary there and that's all that's needed in the state of florida and they were married coincidentally it's the same day that the jury recommended that he get the death penalty for murdering that 12 year old girl okay let me understand something in front of the jury when he called she was called to the stand, he proposed? Yes, you are correct. Oh, well, apparently that didn't work. What I don't understand, too, Dr. Bethany Marshall,

what can a woman who pursues a relationship with an inmate or a killer behind bars really expect? What do they get out of it? Well, you know, if you're married to somebody behind bars, you know where they are all the time. You don't have to keep calling and texting and being afraid that they're out with another woman. You don't have to feel that they're dating behind your back. You don't have to wonder if they're on a business trip and they'll never come home.

These women have the fantasy of the man being endlessly available to them. That's one part of it. As we keep saying, they refuse to put their thoughts together about the nature of the crime. But Ted Bundy's wife, what it sounds like to me, is that she kind of injected herself into the notoriety of the crime. Like she thought this was exciting. She had her 15 minutes of fame.

He was in front of a courtroom. And maybe to her, that was like being a star on stage and that this was very emotionally gratifying because she felt he was famous. Therefore, she would be famous too. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, I guess that the Ted Bundy case is, you know, textbook for medical examiners. In these cases, women were strangled, they were raped, but not only that, they were abused post-mortem. He would bathe their bodies in the bathtub, fix their hair and their makeup, dismember them, have sex with their body parts.

Dr. Michelle Dupree, how often do you see abuse of a corpse? Sadly, more often than you would think. I think I've probably had five or six cases, and that's really probably the average for most people who have been in the business for 20 or so years. Let me just guess, were all of the victims of abuse of a corpse. And that's typically, would you agree, Dr. Michelle Dupree, having sex with a dead body? Yes, usually it is. But it can also be other things. It can be inserting objects. It can be biting. It can be all sorts of other things. But that is typically what we think of. And we see a mixture. Well, you know, if you ask Dr. Bethany Marshall, I can guarantee you she will say that biting a corpse and inserting things, as you euphemistically put it, that's certainly putting perfume on the pig, is sex related.

Okay, but Dr. Michelle Dupree, let me guess. Well, remember, statism is a sex drive. What? Statism is a perversion, and it is related to the sex drive. So, yes, it's a perverse sexual pleasure in biting a dead body. It's sexual. I always wait to see how many minutes you make it before you say sadomasochistic sex, but okay, this time, you know, you almost made it through the whole hour. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, all of the victims of abuse of corpse, were they women? Not all of them, Nancy. The vast majority

are, but men are also raped and are often abused sexually afterwards. Well, you're telling me that one of the five victims that you examined, and there had been abuse of a corpse, one was a man? Yes, I am saying that. Okay, well, you just certainly taught me something I did not know, and I kind of wish I didn't know. So I can think about that tonight as I drift off to sleep so you were hearing this woman who accepts a proposal on the witness stand but she's not the only one take a listen to this

there are many who would look at Richard Ramirez in the eye and say he is the the face of evil and yet you look at him and and you see the man of your dreams who needs glasses here I can't help the way the world looks at him they don't know him the way I do and the next day Doreen walked down the aisle I'll be at a prison aisle with her groom here's the couple and her response at being the new Mrs. Richard Ramirez. It feels wonderful. I'm so happy. I'm so thrilled, very proud, and a little relieved that the bulk of the day is over, and just hopefully I can enjoy the rest of my day in peace with Richard's family and think about the importance of what happened today. Okay, she sounds

like she's highly sedated, but sadly she's not. That's KRON-TV 4 reporter Vicki LeViacus talking to Doreen Leoy, who married the night stalker Richard Ramirez. Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door. Who's Richard Ramirez? He's one of America's most heinous serial killers. He had a relatively long killing spree. And by the way, this was, as my understanding, this was not his first wife in prison, by the way. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. They attract more than one woman behind bars. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I really need to shrink right now. Now, according to reports, killer dad Chris Watts gets letters and even risque photos behind bars

from women. What do you make of these women sending love letters? And do you think inmates should be allowed to receive them? Nancy, I do not think inmates should be allowed to receive them because to me, it's like the men are still preying on society from behind bars. But we keep thinking about why would a woman fall in love with a killer behind bars? And as I said earlier, they confuse power, sex and love. The fact that the guy is aggressive actually feels like a form of love. Sometimes in the case of Richard Ramirez, one of the wives had a great deal of animosity and aggression towards women. So in this case, she took secret pleasure in the crimes. There's the fantasy that you always know where the

man is, that he's available. And there's also this common thread amongst all women who fall in love with inmates, that the man is going to be sexually faithful. That just because the man's behind bars means he's not masturbating. He's not having sex with other men. He's not engaging in sexual activity. He's just being chased and available to the woman. And it is a very, very disturbing misappraisal of the situation. But that's how most of these prison groupies feel.

To Daryl Cohen, you and I have been in so many jails in and out. How do they manage to get conjugal visits? They're illegal in most jails. Nancy, as soon as that was being spoken about, I was thinking to myself, behind the water cooler in the bathroom? I don't know. I have never been able to figure that out because normally the prison guards are much more attentive especially towards someone who has been convicted of murder. So I don't know, but I guess where there's a will, there's a way. And on that highly scholarly comment, since there's really no explanation, I will take my leave because I am a JD, not an MD with a degree in psychiatry.

Okay, so the beat goes out. And remember, it's not just men. You wouldn't believe all the love letters and marriage proposals that Jodi Arias gets behind bars. Oh, okay. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.