Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Loving Mom Bludgeoned With Kitchen Frying Pan, STABBED 30 TIMES

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

A college secret is said to be the motive behind the murder of an Ohio Mom. Brenda Powell was bludgeoned with a frying pan and then stabbed more than 30 times. Daughter Sydney Powell, 19 at the time, was charged with murder. Prosecutors claimed Sydney Powell did not tell her parents that she was suspended from Mount Union University months earlier for poor academics. Brenda Powell was on the phone with college officials when her daughter struck. Defense experts argued that Sydney Powell suffered a psychotic break when she killed her mother. Three experts found she was schizophrenic and could not discern right from wrong.  Experts for the prosecution asserted Powell had mental health issues, but was not insane when she committed the crime.     Joining Nancy Grace Today: Brian Stano - Summit County Assistant Prosecutor and Lead Prosecutor on the Sydney/Brenda Powell Homicide Case   Dr. Carla Manly - Clinical Psychologist, Author: “Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships & Love Fearlessly” Lt. Dave Whiddon – City of Akron, Ohio Police Department, Detective Bureau, Commander, Crimes Against Persons/Major Crimes Unit; Lead Detective/Supervisor on the Sydney/Brenda Powell Homicide case  Dr. Jeffrey Jentzen - (MI) Professor of Forensic Pathology and Director of Autopsy and Forensic Services at the University of Michigan Medical School; Former Medical Examiner in Milwaukee County, Wisconsin Rachel Dobkin –  Crime Reporter for The U.S. Sun; Twitter: @TheSunUS, LinkedIn & Facebook - The US Sun See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful mom dead in her own home, not only bludgeoned, but then stabbed repeatedly. But why? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Much has been made of the fact that this is a very quiet, secluded neighborhood that has never seen a crime such as this. Listen. It was a shock because this is a quiet street. They seem like good people. So I think this was just taking everybody's surprise on this entire block. Akron officers converged on the neighborhood around one o'clock Tuesday

afternoon after someone from a local college called the police. Neighbors tell me a loving family live here, a mother, a father and their teenage and their teenag never saw this coming. It the court when Teresa Sta lunch Tuesday afternoon, anything out of the ordina screen. I did not pay any because originally I beli the television that was o

and noticed my son who wa had paused the television that was on. I came downstairs and noticed my son, who was at the time cooking, had paused the television. I thought, okay, that's really weird. So she went outside to check things out. How many times have we heard that scenario? You're hearing our friends at WOIO and News 5. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first to Brian Stano, Summit County Assistant Prosecutor, lead prosecutor on the high profile murder trial. You know, Brian Stano, how often have you had cases where when you go back and you start questioning neighbors and ultimately witnesses,

they go, yeah, I heard fill in the blank, but they didn't think anything of it. They didn't call police, even though they're hearing something very alarming. They, quote, quote, don't hear it. Well, that is in that is unusual. Indeed, we have neighbors that hear something that is just ear piercing and shrieking and just terrifying. You know, I want to go to Lieutenant Dave Whitten joining me in addition to Brian Stano. Lieutenant Whitten, City of Akron, Ohio Police Department, Detective Bureau Commander, Crimes Against Persons. Lieutenant, thank you for being with us.

Have you noticed that in other cases? I think that people don't, it's not like we're living with blinders on, but I guess we are. We hear something and it doesn't fit into what we expect to be normal. And so we go, oh, that was the TV or, oh, that was a gun. That was a gunfire. It must have been a car backfiring. We look instinctively for innocent reasons for what clearly is something out of the ordinary. Yes, I would agree with that. It seems like, you know, we are getting less and less people calling the police on when they hear things. People get so, they get so used to, unfortunately, sounds in their neighborhood, including gunfire or anything else, and then they just move on. It's not like, it's not like it used to be, I guess, when I first started, when, you know, people would get any kind

of inkling of any kind of suspicion and would call the police, at least just to check it out. Exactly. Dr. Carla Manley joining me, high profile clinical psychologist. You can find her at drcarlamanley.com. What is that, Dr. Carla? Is that we don't want to consider that a lady is getting bludgeoned with a frying pan and stabbed next door. This neighbor is entirely innocent. She just couldn't take in

that someone's getting murdered. Absolutely. I think it's twofold. A, we tend to try to normalize sounds in the environment so we're not constantly on edge and being hypervigilant. I think that's the first part. What? Wait, wait. What you just said. Let me quote the office what she said.

Say that again. That's what we're trying to verbalize. What now? We tend to try to normalize the environment what's occurring in our environment so we're not constantly on edge and being hyper vigilant so if we make sense of what's happening around us and attribute the sound to oh it was the neighbors television we don't have to go into fight-or-flight mode so we feel better when we're able to make a story that makes sense

to us okay uh dr manley so beautifully put and so dead on so correct guys what happened inside that home take a listen our friends at woio she saw a young woman coming out of a home down the street so i glanced at her because in the process we had three patrol cars burling of our street, three cars turned into six, which turned into nine, which turned into 12 police cars to detective cars. Paramedics came up the street. She says the young woman collapsed on the ground. Stafford couldn't tell if she was hurt. Originally they have put the young lady in a police car. They hadn't put her in a paramedic, but then eventually they put her in a paramedic. So we know something horrible has gone on. One

woman taken out in a stretcher, one after she collapses, the cops try to pick her up and then they ultimately give her to the paramedics as well. What happened inside that home? Take a listen to more. The mom came out on the stretcher and they carried her away. So in the process, we saw the dad come up and we knew something was really wrong because they wouldn't let him go in the house. Police tell us a little before one Tuesday afternoon, they got a call to do a welfare check at a home on Scudder Avenue. Inside, they found a woman stabbed several times. Both women were taken to the hospital. The 19-year-old is expected to be okay, but the woman didn't make it. Joining me now, in addition to Lieutenant

Whitten, Dr. Manley, Brian Stano, Dr. Jeffrey Jensen, a very well-known pathologist and medical examiner. First, now I want to go to Rachel Dobkin joining us, investigative crime reporter for the U.S. Sun. Rachel, thank you so much for being with us. You guys have been on this from the get-go. Tell me how this woman, Brenda Powell, died. She suffered from blows from a frying pan. And how many times was she stabbed?

So prosecutors say that she was stabbed about 30 times. So obviously a very violent crime. And tell me about the neighborhood, Rachel Dobkin. Well, it is a very quiet neighborhood. You know, like we heard before, the neighbors were shocked to hear this happen. It's kind of a similar story you hear now and again of the unsuspecting neighbors. They could not believe something like this would happen in their own town. So this is a little subdivision outside of Akron, Ohio.

Is that right, Brian? Yes, that's correct. Tell me about it. Tell me about the neighborhood. It's a quiet neighborhood. It's in West Akron. It's very close to the suburbs. It's quiet. It's a neighborhood with families and children. And I think they were just completely shocked to find out what was going on in their neighborhood. The reason I ask, it doesn't matter as far as how the family is grieving. That happens whether you're in a high-rise apartment in New York City or living out in a rural area like where I grew up. The family is devastated no matter where it is.

But it makes it even more unusual, statistically speaking, when it's not a high crime area. It's not in an inner city where there is a lot of crime, where there's a lot of businesses to be robbed, where there's a high concentration of people. That means per capita, there are more criminals when the population is higher. So you don't expect this. I will never forget, Jackie, you remember this? In a very exclusive enclave in Atlanta, there was a big fancy wedding reception at some big country club, very exclusive. And one of the guys left the wedding, it was all over, left the reception and was standing out on the street waiting for an Uber, talking to his wife who just had a newborn,

I think they were from D.C., and some guy drives up in this wealthy enclave and kills the guy to get his wallet. And you would have thought a murder had never happened on the face of the earth. What I'm saying is it makes it more out of the ordinary. And I'm going to go to you, Lieutenant Dave Whitten on this, because you're from the city of Akron. It's unexpected. And I think that's part of the reason the neighbors hear a blood curdling scream and they think, oh, that must have been the TV because it never happens there. Right. This particular street, I had to even look up where I've lived here all my life and had to look up where it was at to get the location.

And there's nothing that we've ever had that happens around this neighborhood. So it was very, very unusual. Completely out of the ordinary. So who, who goes into this neighborhood, never a murder that anyone can remember, goes into a home and bludgeons a mom with a frying pan and then stabs her at least 30 times. Very quickly, guys, before we say another word, I want to tell you about a silver alert, an at-risk missing person. It's a beautiful senior, Claudia Price.

She's 75. Anyone who knows anyone in or near Tulsa or Oklahoma City, Claudia Price is missing. This beautiful woman has dementia. If you can share this story with your friends, to anyone in the Oklahoma area, please do it. She's been missing since Sunday morning. I'm just learning about it. She's loving. She's kind. Her family is heartbroken. Please send your prayers and share this post. If you want to know more, go to crimeOnline.com where we have it posted. Claudia Price last seen on Sunday in Tulsa.

She was wearing a bright blue button-up blouse, black pants, and black shoes. If you have seen her, please call 911. Claudia Price, come home. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Rachel Dobkin is joining us, investigative crime reporter from U.S. Sun. But first, I'm jumping off what Rachel told us to Dr. Jeffrey Jensen, professor of forensic pathology, director of autopsy and forensic services, University of Michigan Medical School.

Okay, that's not shabby. Former medical examiner, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin. Dr. Jensen, thank you for being with us. When you hear Rachel Dobkin say, beaten with a frying pan, plus stabbed 30 times, my guess, an educated guess, is that this mom who had devoted her life to helping other people at a hospital, I bet you she was stabbed more than 30 times. And I want to remind you, I'm sure you heard about the case of Jodi Arias, who stabbed her lover, Travis Alexander, at least 29 times.

Some medical examiners differ and say 31. Some say 27. Some say 28. Why? Because when you stab so many times, the wounds begin to overlap. How many times somebody has been stabbed? When you're talking over 10 stab wounds, they begin to overlap. Yeah, you bring up, you know, certain points about investigating stabbing. As far as the environment, although rare, homicides do happen in nice neighborhoods. As far as stab wounds, one of the

activities that medical examiners do is look at the amount of voluntary activity that can be engaged in after receiving a fatal wound. When you see the excessive injuries that are inflicted on an individual and multiple entities, such as bruising from fry pans or attacks, that indicates an assault, but it also indicates a savage attack and multiple entities and multiple injuries. Understood. Guys, you're hearing Dr. Jeffrey Jensen, professor of forensic pathology, director of autopsy at University of Michigan Medical School. What happened inside that home? Take a listen to our friend Aaron Logan. Something went horribly wrong, and that prompted a caller from Mount Union University to alert police. That caller had first been on the phone with Sidney Powell who previously attended.

During that conversation he became concerned and called police to do a welfare check. So a detective called 911 to explain. They're on the phone and there was a lot of screaming going on. Just heard like a lot of yelling and screaming going on. And then he tried calling back twice and there was no call back. When officers arrived, they found Brenda Powell suffering from stab wounds. She later died at the hospital. Sidney Powell was taken to the hospital with minor injuries. And for Powell's co-workers at Akron Children's Hospital, a spokesperson tells 19 News she worked there for 28 years, helping children with cancer.

To Rachel Dobkin, investigator of crime, reporter, U.S. Sun, tell me about Brenda Powell and what she did at Akron Children's Hospital. basically a professional in a hospital that will be with patients dealing with their diagnosis, you know, trying to be there for that person, you know, emotionally, mentally. And Brenda did just that for hundreds of kids. I actually got to speak with one of the children. She was diagnosed at age 10 and she had cancer and Brenda was there for her. She said she was a mom figure to her because she did not have a mom in her own life at the time. She's now grown up and, you know, she was grieving Brenda's death because she called her an angel. She was just always there for her patients, for the patient's families. And she's the kind of person that these patients will remember their whole lives and appreciate their whole lives. You know, Rachel Dobkin, I'm so glad you told me that.

When I read about Brenda and investigated about her, I learned about how many people loved her and all the children she had helped at Akron's hospital. You know, to you, Lieutenant Dave Whitten, joining us, City of Akron Police Department and the Detective Bureau, do you ever wonder, I wondered it so often when I was prosecuting in inner city Atlanta, why is it that the good people, the great people, the angels on earth, they're the ones that get targeted. And yet you see about like mafia ringleaders and serial killers, they live forever. Why?

Yeah. This one thing about this case is, you know, our victim, Brenda Powell, it's just, I mean, she was, and I've thought about this since arriving that day on the scene. It's just, it's such a tragedy when you listen to the people that she worked with, the lives that she tested at Akron Children's Hospital through the Child Life Program. I don't have an explanation for that. It's just one of these things that makes this case unique is our victim and the life she had and what she meant to the kids at Children's Hospital. And she's a young woman. She had her

whole life in front of her. You stated that you came to the scene when you first drove up to the scene, Lieutenant Dave Whitten. What did you see? Well, we already knew something was not right here. And with the officers that were on the scene, they were very experienced officers. When they would start calling out that they had a crime scene and they're calling for EMS, I knew something was very, very wrong. And this turned out, this welfare check actually turned out to be a crime. So when I got there, we had a lot of cars. Actually, the whole street was blocked. It's a dead end street. And there was a lot of officer presence. And we had some EMS trucks too. So I knew something serious had happened. And it was actually one of the most violent scenes I've ever

seen once we got inside. When you walked in, what did you see? Actually, most of the house was intact. It didn't look like there was anything out of place. And Officer Legacy walked me through. I saw immediately when we turned down the main hallway to the bedrooms, you could see there was a lot of blood smears. We noticed one at the living room door, and he was pointing out different blood smudges.

And as he led me down the hallway, ultimately to the bedroom, it was just, I mean, there was a significant amount of blood on the floor. There was, it looked like blood spatter on the walls. There was the frying pan and the knife were visible along with the cell phone and I really have never seen that much blood in one area in all the scenes I've been to and then we later discovered that there was blood that was seeping from the bedroom into the basement downstairs and then after looking in the bedroom the officer took me back to where when he first discovered these windows that were broken out towards the rear of the house, there was a rear window that was broken out and there was blood spatter, looked like blood spatter on the outside of the house. And then he explained to me how he entered the house through the sliding glass door that was also broken. And he pointed out that there was a couch that was blocking the entrance to the patio door.

And he told me that he had to actually push the couch over to gain entry into the house. To Brian Stano joining us, a veteran trial lawyer in Summit County. Brian, it sounds like someone had tried to block the mom off from leaving. The sliding glass door was broken. The rear window was broken and there was blood spatter on or around it. I also hear Lieutenant Dave Whitten saying that there was blood down the hall on the walls And then the majority of the blood was in the bedroom. It sounds like someone was trying to get away, like the attack on Brenda may have happened where the sofa was. And then the victim ran down the hall and ended up in the bedroom. Do you,

is that how you believe it happened? No, that's not how I believe it happened. We saw a crime scene that looked like the entirety of what had happened. This brutal attack had happened in Brenda's bedroom. She was found in her bedroom. She was on the floor in her bedroom in a pool of blood as described by Lieutenant Whitten that was so immense it was seeping through the floor. There were small blood smears throughout the house so there was definitely some activity either by Brenda or her killer after this brutal attack that they were moving throughout moving around the house. I see you Brian Stano I don't want to interrupt you I want you to keep going but I. So those smudges in the living room and elsewhere were not from the victim. You're saying it's the killer. Okay, go ahead. I'm learning a lot from what you and Lieutenant

Witten are saying. Absolutely. When they arrived on the scene, Brenda was found in a pool of blood, brutally attacked, but they did find blood smears throughout the house. This was not a large amount of blood. It was a smear here, a smear there, a spattering here, spattering there, by the broken window, by this open sliding glass door. So whoever, this evidence was strongly pointing to whoever the killer was that after this murder or this attack, that they had been moving around the house with some purpose that at this point we weren't sure of. Wow. You and Lieutenant Whedon, I'm telling you, between you two and Rachel Dobkin, I'm seeing a scene that would make a lot of officers vomit.

You guys ever seen an officer vomit at a crime scene because it's so bloody and disturbing? Anybody? I have. I didn't vomit, but I've seen other officers just like heave because it's just so much. Okay, guys, who, what, where, why, and when? Listen. The crime scene t home is gone and so is th

But the shock remains in neighborhood of Akron whe woman is now charged with For 28 years, Brenda Powl Children's in the shower cancer and blood disorder has stunned coworkers and Scudder Drive, including Edgar Powell, who is not related. I'm sad that

something like that could happen between a mother and daughter. Stafford says what really hurts the Powell seemed like a happy family, dad, mom, daughter, son, um, typical family. Like we never heard them you know do any arguing usually dad and son play basketball go for walks mom and daughter usually kind of together okay what the daughter the teen daughter Sidney Powell charged with the murder of her mother bludgeoning her with a frying pan stabbing her multiple times 30 at least okay how do how does this whole thing unfold take a listen to our cut 13 this is Steven Powell the husband of the victim the father of the daughter listen were

you or Brenda aware of any academic problems Sydney may have been having during that first year no okay did she ever share with you that she had been having any academic problems no I guess when she came home that that summer well let me I don't want to assume, did she come home after that first year and spend the summer with you? She did. Okay. What did she do that summer?

She had a job. Okay. Where did she work? The baseball team down here, the rubber ducks. The Akron rubber ducks? Yes. What did she do for them? I worked in the kids zone.

Okay. And during that summer, did... I guess you were in the kids zone. I was in the kids zone. Okay. And during that summer, did, again, any share anything about what was going on at school or anything like that? No. Okay, I'm still not understanding why the 19-year-old girl bludgeons and stabs her mother dead.

Let's hear some more from the father-slash-husband. The only thing that I knew is when I tried to sign on to the, uh, like their whatever app that they have on the website, it kept kicking me out. The, the, the app that Mount Union had. Yeah. They have like a, like a portal. I think it's called a portal. Okay. And you would try to sign into that portal and it wouldn't let you in. Correct. Why were you trying to sign into that portal and it wouldn't let you in correct well why were you trying to get into that portal seeing because it did 529 plan didn't cover all the tuition for the year so I had to make a personal check okay so I had to see how much that was okay and when you had difficulty

logging under that portal what did you do? I asked Sydney what was going on about it. Okay, and what did she say? There was a mistake with Mount Union. Okay. And she looked into it. Okay, and at that point you had no reason not to trust? Correct.

She's telling you? Correct. Okay, I'm starting to smell a rat. I'm going to go to Brian Stano, Summit County prosecutor, veteran trial lawyer. My brother would drop out of classes all the time. And at that time, it was Mercer University where all three of us ended up going and graduating. They would send the grades to the home address and my brother would figure out when they were going to come. And my sister was all A plus and catch this. She majored in

accounting and German with a minor in chemistry. Brilliant. My brother would not let us say apply himself. So he would get the grades out of the mailbox and hide them always in his glove compartment of his car. And my sister, who's the brainiac, would never get her grades out of the mailbox and hide them always in his glove compartment of his car. And my sister, who's the brainiac, would never get her grades. She'd have to go to the registrar to find out her grades. Finally, oh, by the way, even though he was a C minus student, he is the one that ends up with the big house on the golf course. Okay. Not my brainiac sister. I'm certainly not on a golf course. It was him, the C minus student, my brother. So maybe he was smarter than all of us. Long story short,

the portal, let me understand this, Brian Stano. The portal is where you log on and you find out like grades and how much money you owe. And that's what they're talking about, a portal. Yes, that's what they're talking about. And not to date myself, but back when I was in college and law school, grades were mailed out. But these days, you know, in the year 2020, grades, they're all online. It's all digital. And grades and tuition information, if that is going to be accessed by a parent, they have to go online. They have to log in to see tuition amounts, what's owed and grades and everything like that. When I heard him say a 529, that's that savings plan. I opened up one for the twins when they were born to make it get

interest until the time they went to college. So he's trying to pay his daughter's additional tuition and he can't get into the portal. P.S. My brother did graduate. I want that on the record. Take a listen to this. What was the first issue that came up with Sidney and Mount Union that you recall? I believe Mount Union called me. They called me and the conversation was that Sydney wasn't enrolled anymore. And then I asked for how long and they said, you have to ask her. Okay. And I'm sure that came as a shock to you. Yes. And again, they said you have to ask. I know it sounds cold, but they're saying you have to ask her because they can't give you any more information, right? That was my assumption. Uh-oh, she's not enrolled anymore. Back to Rachel Dobkin joining us. Investigative crime reporter, U.S. Sun. Rachel, why wasn't she enrolled anymore? That was because she had failed three out of the four classes she had in her fall semester of 2019. How many did she fail, Rachel? Three out of four

classes. That's why she's not enrolled anymore. And wait, this is bringing back horrible visions of top mom Casey Anthony, who said she was working at Universal Studios and would even dress up in the outfit with a name tag on it. And the whole time she was not working. You know, I don't know how long, maybe a couple of years. So let me understand this, Brian Stano. The daughter, then 19-year-old Sidney Powell, would pretend she was going to class every day? She actually would. She and her roommate would wake up at the same time and they'd get ready, get dressed and go off to class. The roommate to her classes and Sidney supposedly supposedly to her classes but the roommate was none the wiser she thought sydney was going to her classes and actually sydney what we learned

she'd go to the library all day and sit in the library and to the point where she actually would tell her parents she got a job in the library so So she was definitely pretending that she was still a student and still going to class. OK, I'm just trying to get my head around this because, you know, Lieutenant Dave Whitten joining me, City of Akron, Ohio Police Department, Detective Bureau and commander. You know, I prosecuted a lot of drug crimes. A lot of it starts off as a burglary and the victim gets killed. A lot of drive-by shootings, carjackings. But never a murder over bad grades, Lieutenant Whitten.

You ever seen this before? Yeah, this is one of the things that definitely made this case unique is the circumstances surrounding this. You know, as Mr. Stano said, we know that Sidney was expelled from our union back in December of 2019. She actually got a certified letter sent to her house and she didn't tell her parents. We discovered through the investigation that she, they weren't aware of anything. They would, we have nothing at all. They weren't aware that she was expelled. They weren't aware that she was on academic probation following her freshman year. So easily avoidable, Lieutenant.

And guess what? This isn't the first time this has happened. Take a listen to our cut 27 about Chloe Stein, 23, set to graduate college that weekend. Our friends at KDKA. 23 years old. That is Chloe Stein's age. She was set to graduate from Penn State, Greater Allegheny this weekend. Her mother is desperate for answers. She tells me that Chloe's boyfriend was the last person to communicate with her via text and it was her boyfriend and two friends who found Chloe's car earlier today, not far from where she worked. And of course, suspicion cast on the boyfriend when Chloe Stein disappears, her car parked under a bridge. Guess

what? She didn't want her mother to find out she wasn't going to graduate on time. Really? So she faked her own kidnapping? Very quickly, guys, before we say another word, I want to tell you about a silver alert, an at risk missing person. It's a beautiful senior, Claudia Price. She's 75. Anyone who knows anyone in or near Tulsa or Oklahoma City, Claudia Price is missing. This beautiful woman has dementia. If you can share this story with your friends, to anyone in the Oklahoma area, please do it. She's been missing since Sunday morning. I'm just learning about it. She's loving. She's kind. Her family

is heartbroken. Please send your prayers and share this post. If you want to know more, go to CrimeOnline.com where we have it posted. Claudia Price last seen on Sunday in Tulsa. She was wearing a bright blue button-up blouse, black pants, and black shoes. If you have seen her, please call 911. Claudia Price, come home. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, guys, I want you to hear more from the father in our Cut 22.

Sidney told you that Brenda was on the phone with Mount Union? Yes. And that's when you told Sidney that the police were on the way to the house yeah and that's according to you that that's when Sydney got hysterical and said someone had broke into the into the house yes and then you actually called detective deez back to say that you know this is legit something's going on you told him that i don't remember that but i believe it but i'm sorry i don't i don't remember calling him, but I believe it.

Oh, that poor man, his wife stabbed and bludgeoned dead, and his daughter facing murder charges all over, bad grades and dropping out of school? Really? Okay, I now want you to hear Michelle Gaffney, Associate Dean of Students at Mountain Union College. Listen. Dean Frazier was speaking and simply said, Brenda, this is Dean Frazier. I'm sitting here with Michelle Gaffney, our Associate Dean of Students.

We're returning your call, and that's about as far as as we got um there was a very large or very loud sort of thud sound like a pound a pounding or a thud um accompanied by us by a pretty loud scream um and um the scream might have actually been first and then the thud okay as i think about it and then um there was sort of a an expulsion the other sound that i heard at that same time or right after was sort of an expulsion of air like the air was knocked out of somebody the other sound that i heard at that same time or right after was sort of an expulsion of air like the air was knocked out of somebody um i'd always heard that expression of the air being not you know having the wind knocked out of somebody. I'd always heard that expression of the air being knocked, you know, having the wind knocked out of you, but I didn't. That's actually what it

sounded like. And then several more repeated thuds. I don't know how to describe the sound. Did you hear any communication during these thuds? Just the screaming. To Dr. Jeffrey Jensen joining us, Professor of Forensic Pathology, Director of Autopsy at University of Michigan Medical School. What is she saying, an expulsion of air and a thud? Well, it's basically the dying process when an individual stops, has a cardiac arrest, or there is an exsanguination of blood that they can no longer continue to breathe. There's just an expulsion of the air that has already been inspired into the lungs.

And it does have kind of a degassing, so to speak, of the body. Just trying to imagine what you're saying rachel dobkin joining us investigative crime reporter u.s son i i don't understand why she attacked her mother with a frying pan and by knife over the bad grades. Rachel, what more do you know? Well, I know that, you know, there was some arguments in court where they said that she might have had some mental health issues. And there was mentioned by the defense that she suffered from schizophrenia and she had a psychotic break. Okay. a psychotic break. In simple terms, Dr. Carla Manley, clinical psychologist and author of Date Smart.

Dr. Carla, what is a psychotic break? When a person has schizophrenia, many times they have what we call negative symptoms, lethargy, a lack of interest in daily activities. Then they can have symptoms where they're acting out, delusions, hallucinations, or a full-blown psychotic break where they lose control and often have no memory whatsoever of what occurred. Okay, so a psychotic break is when you lose control and you have no memory of it. Is that correct? Yes, in general.

Got it. Brian Stano joining me, high-profile prosecutor there in Summit County. Brian, let me understand this. I want to pull together what you and Lieutenant Dave Whitten said. At first, the then 19-year-old daughter said, was saying on the phone, somebody had broken in. And we see a sofa pushed away. We see a broken sliding glass door. We see a broken window in the back. Is all that correct, Brian? Yes, that's all correct. Would you say it was staged to look like a break-in? Absolutely. It

was absolutely staged to look like a break-in. She is no more mentally ill with a psychotic break than my rear end, because if you can plan all that, you're not crazy, and then lie about it. And all the time she was lying about her grades and then tried to make this look like an intruder. And then when the cops get there, she falls back like she's in so much grief and shock. B.S., Stano. I totally agree. That's what the evidence showed. She actually got these poor administrators from this college, when they're speaking to Brenda, they heard her last words on earth.

She said, hi, thank you for calling me back. And they hear these screams and thuds. They call back several times because they're concerned about Brenda. And after the attack, after they hear those thuds and that expelling of air, they call back and the phone is picked up. And what they hear is in the call and what they describe is the calmest voice I've ever heard. Hi, this is Brenda. It was Sidney pretending to be her mom in the middle of this attack. Dear Lord in heaven. What more can you tell me, Brian Stano, because I did not know that fact right there that you just said, that she had the wherewithal to pretend to be her mother. She absolutely did. She got on the phone and those administrators said, Sydney, this is you. This isn't Brenda. We

know this is you. Click. The line goes dead. And what else we know based on the investigation is and what the blood spatter showed, she actually had the wherewithal when she's told by her father, the police are on their way. She goes outside the home as her mom is laying there dead or dying in a pool of blood. She goes outside the home to the back of the house, breaks in the window from the outside and her blood and Brenda's blood was later found on the outside of the home, on the aluminum siding. So she actually had the wherewithal to go outside the home, break in the window from the outside, as if an intruder had broken in from the outside.

That's what she had the wherewithal to do in just these minutes. She only had minutes to think about this, and she was able to do this in that period of time. And when the police arrived, that's the first thing out of her mouth. There was a break in. There was a break in. She knew what she was doing. Brian Stano, can you describe for me her demeanor in court when you were trying this case? During during the beginning of the trial, I think she she was definitely teary-eyed and sad. There were actually moments that to our surprise, which I had never seen in my career as a prosecutor, certain moments of this trial where the defense actually excused her from the trial for when we were showing crime scene

photos or the body camera from the police or anything graphic, he would actually excuse her from the trial by saying it was, it was just too much for her to see. As the trial went on, I think she got less teary and a little more resolved. And honestly, in my experience, Nancy, when there is a time in every trial where somebody who's on trial for murder realizes, oh, my goodness, I'm being held accountable. This thing's over. And I think in the middle of the trial, it started to portray sadness. As the trial went on, she got more resolved, steely-eyed, stone-faced, showing no emotion. And I think she knew she was in trouble. Were there times she would actually cover her ears?

Yes. Well, it looked like she was covering her ears. But from the way she was covering her ears, I still think she could hear everything that was being said. Okay. I know you're not a shrink, Brian. I get it. But what is with her? Why would she do this? She, I think she had a lot of expectations on her. She was a great high school student. And when she got into, got to college, it's like all the structure was gone and she got herself into such a hole, missing classes, terrible grades, academic probation, expelled from the university and keeping up of the lies, the will it takes to keep up lies for months, years almost from your parents, the effort she has to make every day to lie, or whether it's an active lie or a lie of omission. And it was all in that phone call that Brenda was making to those college administrators. It was all about to come crashing down on her. And I told that jury that it's inexplicable. It's illogical, but it's not schizophrenia, it's not a psychotic break. She panicked. And it was in that moment, that phone call where it was all was going to be

revealed. She just couldn't have that. So she panicked, she overreacted, and then she tried to cover it up. How long will she be behind bars, Brian Stanis? It's a life sentence. In Ohio, murder is a life sentence. In Ohio, it's a murder's a life sentence. She'll be eligible for parole at the earliest at 15 years. The judge has some discretion to sentence her to even more time on some additional charges, like the tampering with evidence we added for staging the scene. But it's a life sentence. Lieutenant Dave Whitten, you ever seen anything like it? No, I think Mr. Sano did such a great job in the closing arguments, bringing the whole case into perspective. And this was an irrational act. It wasn't insane. It was irrational.

And, you know, one of the things that struck me is it's kind of a shame that, you know, we talk so much about the family structure. And I just can't keep thinking, why didn't you, you had the family structure in place that was there. Why didn't you reach out for help? A lot of kids go through this every year when they go to college. They find out it's not for them. And I keep thinking, how did we get here when, you know, you have a, why didn't you reach out to somebody, talk to your parents? And that's one of the mysteries is, you know, we don't know what happens, what happened in the house or as far as the relationships. But the question is, why couldn't you reach out and solve this problem that so many people in this

country go through? I can tell you, Dave Whitten, based on what you said earlier about all the years this mom devoted herself to children with cancer, I think this mom was nothing but loving and caring. Right. Well, we'll see how long we can keep Sidney Powell behind bars. Congratulations on the courtroom win. I know that you're mixed, Brian Stano, because you get the verdict you're seeking, but that can never mend a broken heart. Same to you, Lieutenant Witten. Goodbye, friend.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Lieutenant Witt and goodbye friend.