Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MADDIE SOTO'S MOM FEARED 'WOODY ALLEN' SITUATION, MOM'S BF 'MADDIE STARTED IT'

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

The man accused of molesting and killing Madeline Soto shortly after her 13th birthday will stand trial next fall. Stephan Sterns, the boyfriend of Madeline’s mother, Jennifer Soto, faces charges of first-degree murder and 60 other offenses, including sexual battery, molestation, and possession of child pornography. Sterns has not attended court in months, choosing to skip pretrial hearings. In phone calls with his parents, Sterns claimed he "didn't start" the situation he is now facing. Jennifer Soto told police she had always feared a "Woody Allen situation." Sterns' trial is set to begin on September 22, 2025.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Philip Dubé  – Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Jorey Krawczyn – Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. – Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide” Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” X: @rdreekeke Anna Sonoda – Child Grooming Expert, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and Author: “Duck Duck Groom: Understanding How a Child Becomes a Target” Dr. Eric Eason – Board-certified Forensic Pathologist, Consultant; Instagram: @eric_a_eason, Facebook: Eric August Eason, LinkedIn: Eric Eason, MD Shannon Butler – Investigative Reporter WFTV-9  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Murdered Maddie Soto's mom says she feared a Woody Allen situation. Really? Yet she continued to allow her then 12 year old little girl to sleep every night in the bed alone with mommy's boyfriend? This as on secretly recorded jailhouse calls, we hear mommy's boyfriend turned murder suspect state Maddie started it. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. So you're saying presumably her school computer was in her backpack. Well, I can confidently tell you she did not go to school with her backpack.

Why is that? Because we found it in the trash. Yeah, that's mom's live-in boyfriend, Stefan Stearns, trying to describe, explain why Maddie's backpack was found in the trash, talking about that she went into school the whole time. He knows why her backpack is in the trash, according to prosecutors, because he put it there trying to hide evidence. But in the most recent and bizarre turn of events, murdered Maddie Soto's mother. Let this sink in. Who has gotten immunity.

Says she feared a Woody Allen type situation. Listen. I've always told him that my biggest fear is that this would turn into a woody allen situation where the stepdaughter fall or the dad grooms the child and the child then turns 18 up running away with him i told him like that was my biggest fear and i don't ever want that happening like you can't do that to me like so take a listen to this so we go back to 2020 we're looking at a minimum of three and a half years. Three and a half years where I'm sure you guys are sexually active. Yes.

So for three and a half years under your care in your house, not only is he being sexually active with you, you have a sexual relationship. Did you hear that? That crying? See, in my mind, straight out to Shannon Butler joining us, investigative reporter, WFTV, Channel 9 in Florida, where this happened. Shannon Butler, the,

those little gulps should have happened when she first thought she had a quote, Woody Allen situation between her live-in boyfriend, Stefan Stearns, and her little girl, then 12. Of course, Maddie told everyone the moment she turned 13, she wanted to go live in the woods. Gee, I wonder why, but I think those tears would have been more appropriate when she first had an inkling there was a Woody Allen situation. Her words, not mine, Shannon.

Yeah. Early on in this investigation, when we first talked to investigators right after those interviews, just hours after those interviews, they had told us they had felt that she was much more upset over what was going on with Stefan Stearns than what was going on with Madeline Soto. I don't know if it just hadn't sunk in yet that Madeline may be found dead at this point, but they felt that the tears and the anguish was much more about Stefan Stearns and what was going on there than about her daughter. And that always troubled those investigators early on in those interviews there. I mean, you can see by their behavior, if you listen to this, they were agitated in this interview, trying to figure out how this possibly went awry, how she missed it. She said she knew nothing about it, but in that comment that she was worried about her daughter in that Woody Allen type situation, obviously there was some kind of feeling you had,

right? That something was amiss in your home. Yes, exactly, Shannon. And you know what, Shannon Butler, guys, joining me from WFTV Channel 9, you really hit the nail on the head. I want to hear this one more time because all she's talking about is me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, nothing about Maddie. Woman, Maddie is dead. The state says your live-in boyfriend murdered her before she could reveal you were raping her practically on a nightly basis alone in bed while mommy got a good night's sleep in another room. Listen to this. You're dead on Shannon Butler. I've always told him that my biggest fear is that this would turn into a Woody Allen situation where the stepdaughter or the dad grooms the child and the child then turns 18 up running away with him. I told him like that was my biggest fear and I don't ever want that

happening. Like you can't do that to me. Like you can't do that to me. Okay, wait, wait, wait, let's analyze this. Shannon Butler is onto something. You have to dissect what she's saying. Listen to this. She says, I've always told him, Stefan Stearns, the alleged killer and child rapist, her boyfriend. I've always told him my fear. This would turn into a Woody Allen situation where the stepdaughter, is she talking about her natural born daughter? Where the stepdaughter, the dad grooms the child. And then the child turns 18 after going through years of rapes, which Maddie did years of rapes. The child turns 18 and runs

away with him. Like what? The child's getting the big prize here in this scenario. She runs away with him. And I told him that's my biggest fear that her daughter would run away with Stefan Stearns, a deadbeat slung up in his girlfriend's home, uh, alternating between his mom's basement. Don't ever, you can't do that to me. Oh, oh, okay. There's so many directions to go right here. Robin Dreek is joining me. Guys, Robin Dreek, behavior expert, former FBI special agent, chief, let this sink in, chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and author of Sizing People Up, a Veteran FBI Agent's Manual for Behavior Prediction. Robin Drake. All mom cares about is Maddie Soto, now dead, at that time, a little 12 year old girl. She might run away with the big catch, the BBD,

the bigger, better deal. She might run off with Stefan Stearns and have him all to herself. Have I lost my mind? That's what she's saying, Drake. I know. No, I even wrote it on the sticky here. I mean, why are you so calm? I know because there's so many data points that are so predictable in this. Everything she's been saying the entire time is her, her, her, her. Like you said, like Shannon said out of the norm on that. And there's so much leakage throughout this. And even, you know, I know we're not haven't talked about it yet, but even his parents, I mean, everyone is seeing patterns of behavior that are deviating from what normal healthy people do. And they're all signals that say, and there's a lot of unhealthy crazy going on here. Okay. Now, you know what, Robin Drake, no offense, but you were the FBI special agent chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. I can say there's a whole lot of crazy going on. I know that much. I'm just a lawyer.

OK, I'm expecting a little girl over and over and over and over with this perv, according to the state, presumed innocent with this perv taking literally thousands and thousands of pictures of him raping and sodomizing a little girl. And it went back for years, as I recall. If I'm wrong, Shannon, jump in. At the time, she was nine years old. Nine years old.

Sodomizing her and taking videos of it, Drake. Yeah, this is what evil looks like. I'm just hoping that at some point they're uncovering a massive network that they're going to save other children from this because I seriously doubt because of this pattern of behavior that this was his first video. Okay, can we just say the whole squeeze lemons into lemonade thing that this has a silver

lining and it's going to be a good side to this? No, it doesn't have a silver lining. Because let me tell you something, Drake. I do think we're going to get other people. There's not. I think we're going to get other people though. That's the only thing I'm hopeful for. When we're talking about a Woody Allen situation, unless you've been living in a cave, I want to explain what Maddie's mom is talking about. Listen. Woody Allen, Mia Farrow, that's the ideal power couple. Woody gave her everything she could possibly want.

I was over the moon happy. But that's the great regret of my life. I wish I'd never met him. Alan denies child abuse but freely admits he's in love with another of Pharaoh's daughters,

21-year-old Sun Yi. 21 now? Okay, we're at the time. That's where our friends over at HBO. It's Alan v. Pharaoh was the name of the special at HBO. OK, you know what?

I just got to get my head around this. Mia Farrow says she had no idea that anything inappropriate or illegal may have been going on. And I have spoken with family members and I believe Mia Farrow. But she gets a very rude awakening, according to her, when she comes home and finds a stack of X-rated Polaroid pictures of her daughter, Sunyi. Listen. There was a stack of Polaroid pictures. All of them were of my own child. I remember struggling to breathe. That is Mia Farrow speaking to our friends at HBO

in Alan V. Farrow. Okay, struggled to breathe. Joining me, Anna Sonoda. Joining us, child sex abuse grooming expert, clinical social worker, and author of Duck, Duck Groom. Anna, thank you for being with us. You know what, Anna? I'm just a trial lawyer. I've tried a lot, a lot. I can't even count how many cases I've either tried or investigated and brought to a guilty plea? Child molestations where the mother knew full well what was going on.

She either knew outright or she put on blinders and didn't want to see. I don't believe that about Mia Farrow. I believe Mia Farrow really did come home and find these Polaroid photos because when she says, I remember I couldn't breathe. It hit her like a train. Unlike the case here where Manny Soto's mother way back said, I feared a Woody Allen type situation. What I'm saying is I had so many moms, I just wanted to give them a finger necklace because they would go along with it or choose not to see that their child is being raped and sodomized. Nancy, this is gruesome. You know, even the fact that we have to have

this conversation is an alert, big red flag for anybody who's currently dating, has anybody coming in and out of their lives when they have children in the house. You know, predators go out of their way to be selective and intentional with who they choose to date. And women who are raising minor children are a perfect choice for a potential predator. Here, in this case, we have child maltreatment at a minimum because child sexual abuse is not random and it's not sudden. This was a reoccurring situation, chronic situation for poor Maddie that she had to endure because no one was protecting her. When you guys showed me the picture of her, I believed the sexual stuff, but I didn't want to believe that he had done anything was protecting her. When you guys showed me the picture of her, I believed the sexual stuff,

but I didn't want to believe that he had done anything equal to her. I'm like, no, what if he did this stuff fine, but what if she's still missing out there? What if somebody took her? I still wanted to believe in his... I believed him. I believed his whole story. So I was just like, I kept repeating that part. I'm just like, what kept repeating that part. I'm

just like, what if, what if she did get dropped off? What if she got abducted? What if she's missing? What is this woman on about? What is she saying? After you showed me the images of my live-in boyfriend, Stefan Stearns, raping and sodomizing my 12 year old. I didn't want to think he did anything evil to her. What? Okay. That said, let's move forward with what we're learning now. Mom long feared a Woody Allen type situation, but did nothing about it. I want you to see new video that we have obtained of the defendant, Stefan Stearns, acting out how Maddie was asleep in his car. Shannon Butler joining me, WFTV. Maddie wasn't asleep. She was dead, propped up in his car and buckled in, buckled in.

Yes. Assumingly, he wanted to do that because he drove out of the condo complex right on the way to school. So that would work with his story that I took her to school that day. So if there were cameras or any of the neighbors had seen him, They'd be like, oh, I saw him. She was in the front seat and they were driving out of the complex to match his story. But investigators knew right away from looking at that video, they knew Madeline Soto at that moment was not alive. That is why they came out so early and could say that they believed that she was already dead before she left the apartment complex because that video to them was very, very clear that she was not moving in that front seat. So Dr. Eric Eason joining me, board certified forensic pathologist and consultant.

Dr. Eason, I guess he buckled Maddie's dead body in because he didn't want to get pulled over on a seatbelt violation. The reality is, Dr. Eason, is that at that time, rigor had likely not set in. So her body would have still been limp. So he had to buckle her in or she'd fall over. Correct. Yeah, the body still would have been limp and she still would have been warm as well because it takes time after death to occur for the rigor to set in and for the body to cool or rather assume the surrounding environmental temperature. And then there's also lividity that would take a while to set in, that settling of the

blood after death. Hold on, Nellie. Wait a minute. Slow down, man. I know this is a regular talk for you MEs there in the medical examiner's lounge blood settles down to the lowest point of your body like if you're on your back all the blood your body goes to your back and your end and the back of your legs so explain to me why he had to buckle her up because rigor had not yet set in in regular people talk please well she hadn't gotten stiff yet, so she was not going to be able to just sit there in the car seat without flopping over. And so it had to be

buckled in. What exactly is rigor? And does it set in and then dissolve over a period of hours? Or do you stay in rigor? No, it's muscle stiffness. So the muscles don't contract. They just become stiff due to the body depleting this chemical known as ATP. But trying to keep it simple, the body becomes stiff. And then over time, you'll reach a full stiffness, full rigor. And then it'll slowly go away. It all takes, it depends on how you die and the surrounding environmental temperature. But it comes on, then it goes away. Dr. Eric Eason, every once in a while, while I'm analyzing a case or I'm investigating

a case and I'm, you know, running down the rabbit hole, sometimes it's easy to forget we're talking about a little girl that just turned 13 that had been living in hell for years since she was at least nine. And we figured that out because of how far back the video and photo images on his phone go. He, according to the state, had been raping and sodomizing this little girl and taking videos of it in mommy's home for years. And you and I are talking about rigor and why he had to buckle her in and what is live remorse and what is rigor morse. And I have to think about my little girl and my little boy at age 12. It's easy to forget that, or do we just want to forget about it when we're trying to analyze?

Because it's hard to focus on probative issues and forensics when you're thinking about your own child. Correct. Exactly. I mean, she was going through hell leading up to the death, and then we haven't even talked about the actual cause of death itself. So she was strangled, which is a very violent way to be killed, especially ifered us off course, but I'm getting back on. I want you to see what I saw. And I couldn't verbalize why I was so aghast when I saw it, but you'll understand. sleeping. Okay, explain to me, like reclining backwards? Just, like, just laying back in the chair.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two renowned and veteran trial lawyer Philip Dubay, joining us. L.A. County Public Defender's Office, which means he's tried a lot of cases. They can't even say, no, this case disgusts me. The judge says, you're on it. You're the public defender. Have fun with that.

So I guess, Philip, I'd like you to look one more time at mom's live-in boyfriend acting out how little Maddie Soto just turned 13. He just dozed off in the front seat of his car on the way to school one morning. She was sleepy. Watch. She was just saying anything. She was just asleep. She was just reclining. Do you see him leaning his head back like he's snoozing? I guess, Philip Dubé, that's why you tell all your clients not to speak to L.E. law enforcement.

Of course. And they never listen. And that's why we all have a job in this system. But I will say this, to be fair, a lot of kids at that age who have to get up at 6, 630 are tired. They're sitting in the car. They maybe just had a little bit of breakfast. They are fatigued themselves. They're not exactly like the energized bunnies looking forward to going into a classroom. Are you saying she maybe was asleep? How does that how in this world does that have anything to do with Maddie raped, sodomized and dead by strangulation? And you're talking about some other child might be a little sleepy in the morning. What? Because they had to get up at 630? That has nothing to do with Maddie. She's dead. She was dead in that photo. Where's the proof of that beyond a reasonable doubt? So far, the evidence is the kid was in the front seat,

was tired, leaned her head back, and that's it. I have not heard one shred of forensic evidence that this child was in fact clinically dead in the front seat of that car. All we know is that she was there and may have dozed off. That's it. Okay, Shannon Butler, can you please help me? Throw me a bone. I need a life raft, actually. Shannon, joining us on FTV, explain to Dubay how you and I know

she was dead, according to the state, in that car, buckled in so she wouldn't fall over. So investigators were very certain when they looked at that video of the car driving out of that complex, they could tell just from the video that Madeline Soto was already dead. Now, the timeline of when she was killed, that is still a mystery. They don't know what happened inside the house, but they know when she was buckled into the front seat of that car that she was already dead. They knew it by looking at it. There was no doubt in their minds. They came out very, very early and said that Madeline Soto was no longer alive. They could tell, they said, because she looked limp and was slumped over in the seat.

It didn't look like she was sleeping to that. You know what? I've got a very strong feeling that Dubé is not going to buy that because investigators said so. Dr. Eric Eason, she, Maddie, never made it to middle school that morning at Hunter's Creek Middle School. She never got there. The last time she was seen,

she was in that car with Stefan Stearns. Her mother did not speak to her as normal that morning before she went to school. The mother did not hear her voice to know she was alive that morning before she went to school. She didn't make it to school. So we know that indicates anyway, very strongly, circumstantially that she was dead before that.

We know based on eyewitnesses that shortly after she was seen in the car with Stearns, her body was dumped. He was spotted at the location where her body was dumped going into the woods, her body was dumped shortly after that picture. Now, isn't it true, Dr. Eason, that a medical examiner can typically place a time of death? Isn't that true? We can come up with a pretty good range. And so you base it on when they were last known alive and then when they were found dead

and you put a bunch of the pieces together and then you combine that with some of the the post boredom changes that would have occurred and so uh we're usually able to narrow it down within a pretty good range for the most part yes i believe the sexual stuff but i didn't want to believe that he had done anything evil to her but that was me assuming that you guys had the wrong guy. I don't want to believe he killed her. I wanted to believe you had the wrong guy, even after seeing those horrific sex attack images of Stephon Stearns allegedly attacking her little girl for years.

He kept all those videos, which is a whole nother can of worms. To Dr. Jory Crawson, joining us, psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University and author of Operation SOS. Dr. Jory Crawson, why do perps want to save their rape videos? That's a great question. And it's because of fantasy. OK, to really understand a sexual offender, you've got to get into their fantasy world. And they want to relive that. That's the whole key, the whole drive of the sexual offender. You notice on the report they talked about the pictures were still like she was sleeping.

Several of them identified him with her where her eyes were closed as sleeping. There's also a report where one of his previous girlfriends reports that in order to get an erection, she had to play like she was dead. Okay, so those are two connecting behavioral patterns that are very significant and tie into his fantasy world. You know what, Dr. Crawson, I never said this to you, but you're kind of creeping me out. And I thought I'd seen it all. I'm going to move on from that. And he's completely accurate. Dr. Dr.

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Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Is mom on record claiming she feared a Woody Allen situation between Stefan Stearns and her little girl, but yet did nothing about it? And we have Stefan Stearns acting out how Maddie was asleep in the front of his car buckled in. There are photos and videos taken of Stefan Stearns. Listen. Alright, go ahead and turn around. Take the wall. Put your hands behind your back.

Put them together like you're praying. There you go. Just like that. Go ahead and spread your feet for me. Did you get a really good picture of this right here? This whole area. See right there, they're trying to get photos of his hands, his wrists, his arm below the elbow. I wonder if there were scratches or bruises there where Maddie tried to fight back. You know, I want to, I want to look at that video from beginning to end one more time. If you don't mind, uh, control room, let's just start at the get go.

Okay. Take a look at this guy, Stefan Stearns. Look at him. Now think about a little nine year old girl seeing this coming into the bedroom every night. And what could she do, Anna Sonoda? She couldn't call out to mommy because in her mind that wouldn't do any good because mommy loves her rapist. Nancy, Madeline had to pay the ultimate price for Jennifer to continue her relationship with an evil predator in the form of Stefan. We know that grooming was taking place. We know that the highest risk environment for a child is their home where they live.

And again and again, Jennifer opened the door to this predator, allowing him to come in. And where were the mandated observers in this situation? You know, children are sitting ducks. They need our protection at all times. And unfortunately, predators get to run on gas, grooming, access, and space. Stefan had all three in this case, and it led to a devastating tragedy on all fronts. I've never seen any signs. I tried watching her like a hawk. I thought I was doing a good job, but I wasn't. I was oblivious to that every four years.

You know, I'd like to believe her, but yet I know that in the last hours we find out that prior to watching her like a hawk, mom, Jennifer Soto feared a Woody Allen type situation between her little girl and her live in boyfriend, Stefan Stearns. Okay, there's more. Stefan Stearns actually blames the state for inflating his charges, artificially inflating his charges. Maddie's dead. She's been raped and sodomized for years. So I don't think those charges need inflating, Mr. Stearns. Listen to this. Were you expecting these charges?

No. The murder charge. Oh, well, we haven't been okay. So you got blindsided by that. Yeah. Obviously, you know, it's not true. You know, I never would have wanted her gone for any reason. So, you know, premeditated first degree is kind of a dick punch.

These recorded phone calls. I don't know how in this day and age you cannot know your jail calls are being recorded. That said, take a look at what Stefan Stearns is actually saying. Straight out to Robin Dreek, joining us, former FBI chief of FBI counterintelligence behavioral analysis program, author of a lot of books. Robin, do you hear what he's saying in that first bit of sound? And this is him talking to his mom and dad. And let me tell you, I'm going to play some more. And dad, who I think was former L.E. law enforcement, man, he can smell some serious hot steam and BS.

He's talking to his son. He's like, what? But here to just kick it off, Stefan Stern says, I don't know what the plan is. Are they just trying to scare me into pleading down? Oh, no, Stearns, that ain't going to happen. You're not pleading down. What, to involuntary manslaughter? Fat chance.

They're trying to scare me and trying to hurt me as much as possible. Maddie was left dead, raped, sodomized. Her stuff thrown in a dumpster, her body found. And he's saying, they're just trying to hurt me as much as possible. Response. Isn't it completely shocking and important about how there's so little regard

for the dead little girl by both him and her mom. And like you just pointed out, it is really, really striking to me about how the parents seem to be kind of just knowledgeable in some way. It's not like a shock to them. And can you imagine any one of your beautiful little children being accused of something like this, the shock, the disbelief? Because if you are used to seeing and having a healthy relationship with your child and something like this happens, it's a huge shock to your system. But this doesn't seem to be much of a shock to them. There was a lot of leakage for a lot of years that they didn't like the behaviors they were seeing. And you're hearing it come out in this conversation right here. And then his self-centered focus is just on full display.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Shannon Butler joining me, investigative reporter, WFTV Channel 9 Florida. Shannon, is Stefan Stern's dad former law enforcement? He knew. You could tell in those calls. He knew exactly. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. That's what I was just going to say. I know you have combed over all these calls and you can tell him he's like, whoo, it's smelly bad. I mean, he could smell it a mile away.

How are Stearns' parents reacting to all of this? Well, the dad had questions very early on because the parents actually came up when Madeline Soto was missing to try to help locate her. They came out, came up right after, you know, he told them, hey, Madeline's missing. And the dad was always a little bit suspicious of what was happening because Stearns, remember, left in the middle of the night and was driving around. And you can tell just kind of the matter of factness on those calls, but you can also hear a little bit of that anguish as they let it set in that, hey, by the way, by the time you get out of jail, we'll all be gone and there will be no one here. Given what Shannon Butler has just told us, I want you to hear what we're talking about.

The dad asking, how did this whole thing come about? And Stefan Stearns essentially says, she started it. Listen. You know, you and I can have a conversation. All of us could have a conversation to understand what's taking place, how this came about, how you arrived here, because it would help us better understand the situation because we're just, we're at a loss for understanding how all this came about. I mean, we're just totally, totally baffled. Well, I didn't start it. You didn't start it, but you participated in it, which is just as bad as my starting at birth. Reminder to all,

Jen, Jennifer Soto, Maddie's mother, has not been charged, has not been named a POI, person of interest, or suspect in this case. As a matter of fact, in their wisdom, she has been granted a type of immunity. Okay? So, based on many of the things she told investigators,

she cannot be prosecuted for those things. It's a limited use immunity. Jen Soto, not a suspect. Some woman got on a YouTube thing and said that you weren't even at the party.

Party? Yeah, her birthday party. Yeah, I hadn't gotten there yet. I went up there Sunday evening and got there after she was done at her party. Oh, okay. And it was, we were very happy that I was there. We were very happy that the three of us were together. It was shaping up to be a great week and a great visit. You know, there was no reason for anything to happen. That happened. There was no reason for anything to happen that happened. Again, just like we heard Anna Sonoda claiming, and I'm going to need to shrink on this,

it's like, that didn't have to happen. Well, according to the state, you did it. That's why it happened. She didn't have to happen. Well, according to the state, you did it. That's why it happened. She didn't just suddenly fall over dead after having been raped and sodomized this little girl, Maddie Soto. It didn't just happen. Um, Shannon Butler with me, investigative reporter, WFTV channel nine. Shannon, tell me the timeframe from her birthday to her murder.

The birthday was on that Sunday night. She got dropped off back at the house, and that's when Sir also came to the house. You know, I don't know why Dr. Jory Crawson, as many times as I've combed over this case, I didn't put that significant fact together. The night of her 13th birthday party, she was killed. There could be a couple reasons for that. Pedophiles have age-specific victims. And when they start to age out, they start to move on.

Okay, he really couldn't move on with this because she now becomes a liability. One of the other things already mentioned was she started it. That's part of the fantasy that he was living, that this child came on to him sexually. I would lose count how many times I've heard pedophiles tell me that during clinical assessments. That's part of that fantasy they build. You know, to Philip Dubé joining us, you just heard Stefan Stern saying, quote, there's no reason for anything to happen that happened. I know you're not going to comment on any of your cases. But have you noticed, because I have, defendants, perps, suspects, try to blame the crime on it just happened.

Like, here's a good example. I had a guy break into a woman's home. She came home. Not only did he kill her, he raped her first. And when asked why, he says, I don't know. My little matri just got up. As if he's blaming his penis for the rape and murder. It's the penis's fault.

And here we're hearing Stefan Stern saying there's no reason for anything to happen that happened. It just happened. Yeah, unfortunately, he doesn't know the elements of the crimes. He seems to think that by being ignorant or trying to attribute it to something that was beyond his control or that something that appeared to be a natural urge or sort of mutually consensual, if you will, that it somehow makes it lawful. And all he did was just dig himself into a hole much deeper than he already was.

Because every one of those statements. I love the way you just said that. That he, this grown man, I mean, you did see him without a shirt on, right? Nobody wants to see that coming in the bedroom. All right. That said, much less a nine year old little girl. You just said mutual consent, if you will. I won't.

I will not go down your garden path pretending that he thought this was mutual consent. Well, then there's nothing to argue, frankly. If in his mind he feels that there was consent, it is not a defense because of the child's age. So all he did was incriminate himself even further. I mean, that's just the bottom line. There's just no way out of this. And frankly, they didn't even need his statements. They don't even need those jail calls. They have ample evidence without a word coming out of his mouth to nail him. The only real issue here, and I know we're not discussing it, is whether or not he will die. And this is the type of case as defense counsel, I would be groveling for what we call LWOP, life without parole. That is his only hope in this case.

It's not whether or not he will ever get out. The question is one of housing. Will he be condemned or will he be in general population for the rest of his life? To Robin Drake, longtime colleague, behavior expert, and you know the rest, former FBI author, Robin Drake, this guy, not Dubé, this guy, Stefan Stearns. I mean, he and Jennifer Soto, what a pair. But what about Stefan Stearns? What happened didn't have to happen.

Like, it just fell on their heads. He did it, according to prosecutors. Yeah, he's victim blaming. He's boy. Every time I hear or watch him speak any anything, it looks like he's so rehearsed. He's done this before. He's he's thought about this a lot. He's contemplated this a lot in the entire world he's created around himself to him is extremely believable. You know, as our

lawyer was saying, you know, it's in his own mind, if he blames a victim, it shouldn't be an inflated charge. And literally he believes that because he is just so twisted and so broken. And he allowed himself to keep going down this dark, evil path where he victimized her. And I wouldn't be surprised if they find more. If you know or think you know anything about the years of sex abuse and ultimate murder allegations, please dial 407-846-3333. 407-846-3333. We remember an American hero, Police Officer Kevin Taun, Galt PD, California, just 35, shot and killed in the line of duty.

A U.S. Army vet, Taun served with Galt PD three years. Survived by parents, grieving parents, Marianne and Will, Sister Julie, American Hero, Officer Kevin Tawn. Nancy Grace signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.