Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Making a Murderer appeal: Should court toss Brendan Dassey conviction?

Episode Date: December 19, 2017

The Netflix Making a Murderer docu-series convinced many that Steven Avery's nephew Brendan Dassey's confession should be tossed and his murder conviction overturned. Nancy Grace debates the case with Det. Tom Fassbender, who received Dassey's confession, defense lawyer Vinoo Varghese, and reporter John Lee. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. The Netflix series Making a Murderer exposed possible flaws in the case that put him behind bars. We have Stephen Avery in custody, though. Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Avery. He's the Wisconsin man who served 18 years in prison for rape before being exonerated in 2003. We, the jury, find the defendant guilty. Only to find himself in prison again on a murder conviction in 2007. I don't know what to do, how to handle it. Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied and planted evidence.

Stephen Avery is right where he needs to be in prison. I think he was innocent, is innocent. It turned into a documentary. I guess you should call it a documentary. Netflix making a murderer. But what is the real story behind the brutal sex assault and murder of a 25-year-old photographer, Teresa Hallback? The very latest in the saga of Stephen Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, who now both insist they're innocent.

But I know different. I know a different story because I was lied straight to my face. Right now, a legal motion in court as the courts bring down the hammer. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. The truth about what happened to Teresa Hallback. I want to go right now to Detective Tom Fassbender, who worked on the case, actually took one of Brandon Dassey's many, many confessions. Also with me is Brenda, who is a Dassey case expert working with Fassbender and John Lee, reporter returned from the Post Crescent in Appleton, Wisconsin. Detective Tom Fassbender, thank you so much for being with us. The reality is that Brendan Dassey gave multiple

confessions. He confessed to his mother on the phone. He confessed to his cousin, Kayla. He confessed to police. He confessed on a videotape confession by his own defense attorney. But let's take it from the beginning, Tom. Tell me about the case. For those listeners just joining us, how did it all start? Nancy, thanks for having me on. The case started basically with a missing person, Teresa Halbach, being missing. And from there, it went into a homicide investigation

when her vehicle was found on Stephen Avery's, or the Avery's salvage yard where Stephen Avery lived. And from there the evidence kept mounting, pointing directly at Stephen Avery, and the evidence speaks for itself. He was ultimately convicted of the murder of Teresa Halbach and his nephew, who he invited to help with the abduction, sex assault, murder,

was also convicted based on Brendan Dassey statements that he made, the multiple statements you already referred to. This is what we know. Teresa Halbach was an amateur photographer. Then she started taking photos for the local auto trader. You know, you've seen those magazines at the grocery store when you walk in of all of the cars for sale, used cars. She had gone to Stephen Avery, the subject of making a murderer on Netflix, before to take pictures at his auto salvage lot. And she hated it. She said he was super creepy and didn't want to go back.

Well, to keep her job and keep going as a professional photographer, she goes back. She's never seen alive again. Parts of her bones and teeth were found in a, quote, fire pit in Stephen Avery's back lot, just outside his office of his auto salvage lot. Her car had been dragged to the back of his lot and concealed with plywood and tree limbs. Stephen Avery's DNA was on Teresa Halbach's car, including on the ignition. A bullet fragment covered in Teresa Halbach's DNA was found in Stephen Avery's garage.

But at the time, police did not know what had become of Teresa. I started covering this case when Teresa was just a missing person. Take a listen to what Stephen Avery, the target, the star of Netflix making a murderer, said to me. Stephen, I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot to take photos for the auto trader, correct? Yes, she did. She came down by me. Okay. And, Steven, it's my understanding that also you state that you saw her car leave. Yes, I did.

About what time? Between, she was there between 2 and 2.30. 2.30 in the afternoon. Okay, Steven, how is it that her car could get all the way back in this pit area where there is uh well i believe we're showing it right now i mean wouldn't she have to pass back by the office again well on the on the outskirts of the office otherwise back by me or back by redon's pit in the corner is all open. It's all open.

Yeah. So. Anybody can drive in there. Mr. Avery, did you see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, Thursday night, me and my brother had to go to Menards to pick up some wood with the flatbed. And I seen taillights back by me. It wasn't supposed to be. Yeah.

But we turned around, and we went back there, truckie parked on the side, and I took the flashlight out of the flatbed, and I looked around by me and behind me, but I didn't see none. That is from CNN's HLN program that I hosted for many, many years. So he lied outright, Tom Fassbender. I mean, the reality of what happened to Teresa Hallback is that she went to go take the pictures.

He overcame her. He tied her up and chained her to a bed, cut off her hair, stripped her, raped her, brought over his nephew, told him to, quote, have sex with her. Brynn and Dassy also raped her as she begged him not to. Then they stabbed her as she screamed and cried and begged him not to. Dassy also stabbed her and to and begged him not to. Dassey also stabbed her. Then to make sure she was dead, they shot her. Then burned her body using her clothes to wipe up her own blood.

Threw her clothes on top of her naked body on a fire pit out in the backyard of the auto salvage lot, and then piled things like tires and whatever was around on top of that to make sure her body burned. In the fire, in the days that followed, police found bits of her bones, teeth, and the studs off the back of her Daisy Fuentes jeans. Venu Varghese, former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney. You handle appeals and post-conviction motions. Explain to me why he believes he should have a new trial. I'm talking about the nephew, Brendan Dassey, who the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals just rejected.

First of all, Nancy, the evidence is not overwhelming against Dassey. There is no DNA linking him that shows that he was involved in any rape. The issue of the confession is here. And with all due respect to the detective the confession stinks there was a lot of evidence that was fed to him to a kid who was 16 years old who has a very low iq now hold on wait a minute venu wait a minute you are you talking about the confession that never came into court, taken by his own defense attorney, who when he saw the case said, we got to get you a deal, Dassey. And he took a video interview with leading questions and egging him on to give an answer

to use to give the prosecutors to show that Brendan Dassey would be a great witness for the state against Stephen Avery. Then when Kaczynski leaves the case, that is what happened, and that never came in front of the jury. That's not what I'm talking about, Nancy. I'm talking about what came in front of the jury. You have gaps. You have all these leading questions for somebody who's a kid. Think about it. Imagine if your kid didn't have

the same capacity as somebody else and he's being fed answers and every time that he and he's being told look things will be okay and at one point he's like can i get back to school and so the you know the supreme court of the united states found that executions of juveniles was cruel and unusual punishment and outlawed. That's not even an issue. He's not even facing the death penalty. No, he's not. He's not. What I'm saying here, though, is that the Supreme Court should find that interrogations of juveniles,

particularly those with a low mental capacity, is cruel and unusual. I mean, this is a kid who's well-being. Oh, okay. So if you have a low IQ and you're 16 and you rape a woman, tied up and chained to a bed and then stab her dead, we don't want to take your confession. Because just so you know, the mother came with him. Then the mother gave permission for police to speak to him.

The first few times that they spoke to him, they thought he was just a witness that knew something. Then he implicated himself. He confessed on a recorded phone conversation to his mother. He confessed to a cousin, Kayla. And very, very important is that his confessions match the physical evidence.

So unless he's a clairvoyant, he would not know those details. Detective Tom Fassbender, I'd like to hear your response to Venu Varghese. Thank you, Nancy. The interviewing question that he is referring to is exactly that. It started out as an interview until Brendan Dassey essentially blew us away with some admissions that he made, beginning with the fact that he said he raped Teresa Halbach at the urging of Stephen Avery less than 50 minutes into the interview. And I stress, this is a soft interview, no yelling, no deprivation of basic necessities. And he mentions that information was fed to him.

There were times when information was fed to him and there were some leading questions, but I can go through that interview and show just as many instances of him providing information to us that we had no idea he was going to provide. Essentially, like I said, blowing us away. And also many instances where he resisted any type of suggestion and denied involvement, such as him actually shooting Teresa, he vehemently denied that and did not change his mind. And in many other instances, including control question that he denied any knowledge of. So I disagree. The reality is, Tom, the reality is if he had stuck with Kaczynski, who was trying to

cut a deal for him, he'd probably be up for parole right now. I don't know that he would get it the first time around, but he would probably already be up for parole right now. But instead, he launched a defense that he gave a false confession and that he really got the idea for everything he was saying because he read the book kiss the girls yeah i mean if you're that low of an iq that he's claiming i don't know how you could get through kiss the girls wasn't that turned into a movie with ash Judd and Morgan Freeman. I mean, he said he on his own read the book, kiss the girls, and then created and masterminded the defense and masterminded his statement, his so-called confession, and that the confession was false. That is what he told the jury. His new defense attorney put him up on the stand and told the jury that he was not involved, that they made him get a confession, although nobody yelled at him, beat him, deprived him of food or water. His

mommy was outside the door and one of them, that that was all a big lie and that really the truth is, this is what he said on the stand, that he read the book, Kiss the Girls, and then came up with a confession. That's where he got the idea. It's amazing that the forensic evidence fits with his confession, but not with the book Kiss the Girls. I want to pause very briefly and thank our sponsors, our partners making today's program on Sirius XM 132 possible as we give you the bombshell news that the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has rejected making a murderer Brendan Dassey's claim that he's innocent and was forced to give a confession and really based it all on a book he read. I want to take this moment and thank our partner for making our program possible today, Super Beats. Well, if you're like me, you don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about your circulation but I can tell you this when I gave birth to

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Super Beats is working for you, plus free shipping. Now, there's a deal. Go to nancysbeats.com or call 800-516-0683. I'm all about increasing my energy, and I love Super Beats. And I want to thank Super Beats for being with us today and being our partner. Joining me right now is John Lee, a reporter retired from the Post Crescent in Appleton, Wisconsin. John Lee, thank you so much for being with us along with Detective Tom Fassbender, Brenda, and Vinu Varghese. John Lee, you know, the most recent ruling that has just come down from the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals rejecting Netflix making a murderer star Brendan Dassey, along with his uncle, Stephen Avery. What do you make of it, John Lee? There's a few things. Number one, when I talked to the attorneys from Northwestern from day one he got the information from Kiss the Girls, he disputed that to me. I interviewed Brendan at the county jail in Manitowoc right after his conviction.

And he called me about a month or six weeks later from prison after I had sent a note, and one of the things he told me is that before he went to prison, he had never read a book, but once he got to prison, somebody sent him a collection of Harry Potter books that he has started to read, but that was just completely counter to his testimony that he got this information okay hold on john lee wait you're telling me something brand new so his claim that he got up on the stand under oath and told the jury that he had a false confession a coerced confession he had nothing to do with Teresa Hallback's rape and murder, and that he based everything he said on a book he read, Kiss the Girls,

which was later turned into a movie with Ashley Judd and Morgan Freeman, which I saw. Now, are you telling me John Lee? John Lee is a former reporter with the Post Crescent. You're telling me that he's telling you he's never read Kiss the Girls. That's exactly what he told me. I've done somewhere over 400 stories on this case. I started in Michicot the weekend they found the car and interviewed Brendan two or three times after his convictions. And he had told me then when we had talked about it another thing to take in mind is where his attorneys say he's a special needs student

he had some special classes but he was basically in mainstream classes and i from what i remember at the trial um when he was picked up for the last time by Tom and Mark Wiegert and gave the last interview at the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department, he was in driver's ed. That's not a special ed student. He may be low intelligence, but he is not special ed. Wait a minute. Okay, this is counter, John Lee, to everything the defense has been saying. I mean, I was stunned when I found out different things about Brendan Dassey that would suggest

he is not as low of an IQ as they wanted me to believe. But now I'm hearing he's in mainstream classes. I mean, was the whole thing an act, John Lee? I mean, when I say Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassey raped her and killed her and burned her body, everybody acts like I'm the devil. But that is what the facts show. And he was in mainstream classes for a majority of his classes.

There's a couple other things to bring out. Number one is, and I don't think it was admitted at trial, but Tom and Mark Wiegert also investigated a threat that Brendan made to a high school girl who was picking on him. And Brendan said, if you don't watch it, you're going to end up like Teresa. The other thing is, I found it to be one of the most repulsive things I've seen in a confession, is when, after he raped Teresa and walked out in the living room

where his uncle was sitting, he told his uncle what he did, and Avery told him, today, Brendan, you became a man. I'm just sick. I'm just sick about what she went through. I mean, the kid is not smart, but he's not what we used to call retarded. The fact that she was screaming and crying to beg them not to do this thing.

And, John, why did they have to cut her hair off? I don't know. I'm not sure. You know, the other thing when they talk about suggestibility and he being conned into a confession is there was a day-long hearing before the trial on admitting that testimony. There was a psychologist from northern Illinois, I think Rockford, and his name escapes me now, that testified. That was all part of the trial transcript, and it was rebutted by the prosecution. You know, I'm just listening to everything that you're saying. Brenda, you have been working as a Dassey case expert. What is your take on Dassey's claim that this was a forced coercion and he did not rape or murder Teresa Hall back? My take is that he absolutely did. I agree with you 100%. And I know Vanu was mentioning before that there really wasn't any evidence that supported it

outside of his confession. I don't agree with that. My take on it is that there was plenty of things that substantiated what his confession said. Now, some of those are circumstantial, of course, but just a couple examples real quick, Nancy. Stephen told Brendan that he cleaned the house trailer. He cleaned it after. That house trailer was cleaned very well. And there are phone calls that state that to Jody a day after where he is telling Jody, his girlfriend, on a recorded jail call that the ruck doctor that he had wasn't working and he wanted to know where the receipt was so he could take it back. Well, guess what?

That ruck doctor was gone and there was a new Bissell in its place. Because that's number one. Number two, bleach jeans. Those were evidence in the trial, run in the trial. Okay, number one, he stated he and Stephen were cleaning up a stain in the garage, and it was auto fluids. Okay, who cleans up auto fluids that knows anything about vehicles? You don't. You use kiddie litter.

You use sand. You absorb the fluid. Who uses bleach? And backing that up, they found bleach containers, they found paint thinner containers, and they found gas. All three things that Brendan said they used to clean up that oil spill that he eventually did emit with blood. And lastly, he stated he raked and broke up her bones in the fire. Well, guess what they found all around that fire pit? They found a mallet,

they found a rake, they found a hole, they found a shovel and a screwdriver. Do most normal people have those things laying around their fire? I don't. Fire pit? So I guess there are a lot of things that are circumstantial that you can't tie together, but they do support the evidence. Another thing, Brenda, that really convinced me is that he, Brendan Dassey, confessed to his own mother, and it's on a recorded phone conversation. He confessed to friend Kayla, cousin Kayla. Multiple, multiple corroborating facts go to his confession that he could not have known if he had not been there. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Listen to what he said. This is Dassey, his Avery's nephew. Avery went to go pick up some stuff around the yard. And after that, we, he asked me to come in the house because he wanted to show me something. And he showed me

that she was lying on the bed. Her hands were roped up to the bed and her legs were cuffed. And then he told me to have sex with her. So I did because I thought I was not going to get away from him because he was too strong so I did what he said and then after that he untied her and uncuffed her and then he brought her outside and before he went outside he told me to grab her clothes and her shoes so he went into the garage and before she went out when he took her outside he had tied up her hands and feet and then was in the garage and he stabbed her and then he told me to and after that he wanted to make sure she was dead or something so he shot her five times and while he was doing that I wasn't looking because I can't watch that stuff so I was standing by the big door in the garage and then

after that he took her outside and we put her on the fire and we used her clothes to clean up some of the blood. And when we put her in the fire and her clothes, we were standing right by the garage to wait for it to get down. So we threw some of that stuff on it after it went down. Just says it very casually. I want you to hear what his grandfather tells him in a secretly recorded conversation. Now this is telling Dassey to keep his mouth shut. You stick to your damn guns and say nothing happened. Yeah. This is, they made me say all of this. Darn that. Yeah. And stick to your guns. And listen to this. Don't go for a pre-bargain or this and that. Yeah. Because you do that, then you're hurting more of you guys. Yeah. You understand

that, Brendan? Yeah. Today we are bringing you the very latest on the two stars of Netflix series Making a Murderer. The latest on Stephen Avery and his cousin Brendan Dassey, who were both convicted in the brutal

rape and murder of a 25-year-old photographer, Teresa Hallback. I'll never forget it, seeing her picture for the first time and trying to help find her when she was a missing person. The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has just rejected Dassey's claims that he was forced to give a confession and he had nothing to do with Hallback's murder and based his whole confession on a book he read. Guys, I want to thank our partners making our program possible. And right now I want to thank 1-800-DENTIST. If you're like everybody else, you've probably had one too many sugary treat over the holiday. And that is why you need to schedule an appointment with an awesome dentist

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About what time? Between, she was there between 2 and 2.30. 2.30 in the afternoon. Okay, Steven, how is it that her car could get all the way back in this pit area where there is a... Well, I believe we're showing it right now. I mean, wouldn't she have to pass back by the office again? Well, on the outskirts of the office, otherwise back by me or back by Redon's pit in the corner is all open. It's all open. Yeah, anybody can drive in there.

Mr. Avery, did you see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, Thursday night, me and my brother had to go to Menards to pick up some wood with the flatbed, and I seen taillights back by me. It wasn't supposed to be. Yeah. But we turned around, and we went back there, truckie parked on the side, and I took the flashlight out of the flatbed. Okay. And I looked around by me and behind me, but I didn't see none. To Detective Tom Fassbender, who actually

took Brendan Dassey's confession, one of the many confessions, Tom, I don't know how it turns out, Tom, that we end up to be the bad guys in this scenario. I mean, Teresa Hallback was brutally raped and murdered. And there is no doubt in my mind, Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassey did it. True, Dassey may have been under Avery's encouragement, but he did this thing. Nobody made him rape her and stab her and stand there and watch her body bleed. What is the physical evidence? Because Avery also says he's innocent and that he's part of a police frame-up. There was a lot of physical evidence, a lot of scientific physical evidence to include Stephen Avery's blood in Teresa Hallbach's RAV4 vehicle. It was found in

many different places throughout the vehicle, including by the ignition switch, which has been mentioned, in different forms, showing that there was an active bleeder in that car. Subsequently, when arresting Stephen Avery, his finger was examined, and it had a fairly fresh cut on the finger, which would have been conducive to that type of bleeding. Also, there was a bullet found in the garage from Stephen Avery's, the.22 caliber rifle that was hanging above Stephen Avery's bed in his bedroom that was forensically matched to that rifle. That bullet fragment also had Stephen Avery or Teresa Halbach's possessions, her camera, her PDA, her telephone, her cell phone, were found just outside of Stephen Avery's trailer in his burn barrel, which witnesses saw him go to putting things in that day that Teresa was abducted by him and was burning that day. Those burned remnants were found in his burn barrel. That is something you don't hear on Making a Murderer, as well as the forensic matchup of the bullet. Also was Stephen Avery's DNA on the hood latch to the hood of Teresa's RAV4.

The battery had been disconnected on that vehicle when it was found, and obviously the hood had to be open for that to be done, and Stephen Avery's DNA is there. The license plates were taken off of the RAV4, and those were found thrown in a junk vehicle just down the road from Stephen Avery's trailer. So as you can see, there's quite a bit of physical, scientific physical evidence that pointed toward Steve and Avery and no one else. John Lee, I've gone over and over the physical evidence. I know that Dassey confessed to his mother, his cousin, and others. I mean, he would already be up for parole right now if he had taken a deal that Kaczynski, the first lawyer, was trying to get for him. But instead, his defense lawyers put, new defense

lawyers put him on the stand with this unbelievable defense. What about the evidence, John Lee? And tell us everything makes you believe that Dassey and then Avery, in fact, raped and murdered her. On Dassey briefly, it's the forensic evidence. There's so much of it. On Dassey, people forget that Dassey had information that the investigators did not have at that time. They looked at the hood latch. They looked at the garage. They picked up his blue jeans after some of his statements. And they did not berate him or threaten him or anything.

If anybody looks at all of these confessions that were entered into evidence and 18 months worth of hearings before the trial, they would see that if anything, Tom Fassbender and Mark Wiegert treated Brendan with kid gloves. They did not threaten or anything else. If somebody tells me, you know, the truth will set you free, I don't take that as a threat. If you confess, you can sleep tonight, Brendan. If he wasn't sold down the river by his grandparents, he'd be looking at parole pretty quick. He would have 10 years of his sentence in already. And, you know, there's jailhouse recordings and everything else on the threats from from Avery and from his dad and other people the the evidence as it built

was just overwhelming against him and we went through this for 20 months. And then Making a Murderer comes out. The first week in Michicot, well before Dassey and before Avery was arrested, when the Associated Press and Milwaukee and Chicago TV stations asked me who these two women were, I would tell them that's the Avery PR firm. And I said, that was week one. During the entire trials, they arrived for trial with Avery's. They left for Avery's and had, with Avery's and had lunch. They left with them at the end.

They were joined at the hip. And it was pretty obvious to see where this was going from day one. Listen to this. I'm just going to revisit one thing. When you were in the bedroom and you cut her throat, previously you said that you thought she was alive. Is that still your thought on that? Yeah. And why was that?

Because she was breathing a little bit. She was like trying to... Not trying to breathe as hard as she could. From screaming a lot. She was screaming a lot or wasn't? She was. When you cut her throat was she screaming a lot? She was screaming a lot or wasn't? She was. When you cut her throat, was she screaming? Uh-uh. When you cut her throat?

Because when you scream a lot, your breathing goes up or something. Well, explain that a little bit. You said she was screaming a lot. When was she screaming a lot? Like... While you were doing it, after you did it, before you did it? Before. When you cut her throat, what was she doing, if anything? Like, screaming for help and crying. I want to get that straight. She was screaming for help and crying when you cut her throat?

Yeah. When did Steven choke her or strangle her? Like a little bit after that. Well let's let's just go back a little bit okay. Tell us what exactly happened to her, what order it happened in. You said there were basically three things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in the order that it happened. Starting with when we got in the room. Okay. Yeah, what you guys did to her.

We had sex with her. Okay. Then he stabbed her. And who stabbed her? He did. Who's he? Steven. Okay. And he stabbed her. And who stabbed her? He did. Who's he? Steven. Okay. And then what?

Then I cut her throat. Okay. And he choked her and I cut off her hair. Okay. So he choked her after you cut her throat. The issue, I think the answer to that question is simple. It's the confession. And that's what's at the heart of this court in Wisconsin did not take into account Stephen Avery's age as a juvenile and his diminished mental capacity. So if the U.S. Supreme Court thinks that that's important enough, they'll take it. And it's the confession that caught, particularly of Brendan Dassey, that caught everyone's attention because of the length, because of the 20 questions that the detectives played

with him that game, giving him answers throughout, feeding him the answers, telling him things that, you know, the truth will set him free and convincing him over time that this is what he was supposed to say. That caught everyone's attention. And I think that's at the heart of it. The question is the technical one, whether the Supreme Court's going to want to hear that or not. And sometimes, you know, the Supreme Court with their Ivy League background, they like to keep their noses in the air,

the ivory cloud, they may not want to get down in the dirt, but everyone else knows that that confession stinks. Detective Tom Fassbender, I'd like to hear your response to Vinu Varghese. Again, there was many denials. There were many occasions where nothing was said to him during that particular interview. Plus, you have to look at the whole picture. He was talked to two, four, four or five times prior to that particular interview, not necessarily by myself, where he made, it was extremely evident that he was knowingly lying, that he was trying to protect Stephen, and that something serious was bothering him. And so law enforcement went back to him because there was some concern and a belief that he had witnessed something horrible. Not that he had partaken in anything horrible,

but that he had witnessed something horrible. So we were talking to him about that. We received information from a cousin and from the school that something was bothering him and he was making statements. So going into the interview in question, again, it was an interview of what we felt was a witness until he began making admissions that were tying him to his involvement in this horrible crime. If you look at the totality of all the times that Brendan was interviewed, Tom and Mark

Weigert did not threaten him or berate him. They did not put him under hot white lights and withhold. But that's not the issue. That's not the issue. This is video again. The issue is whether they fed him answers. Whether a person who's a juvenile was treated properly. There's nobody saying that the detectives beat this kid.

No one is saying that. But that's not the issue. It's the issue of whether when you deal with the juvenile and whether you have somebody who's in a diminished mental capacity, whether feeding him answers is proper. And if the Supreme Court says that this is a question of law, they will do it. Number one, the issue is, number one, the issue is coercion. And he was not. That's correct. They did not.

Coercion can take many forms, sir. Coercion can take many forms. And also don't put this guy up like he's a 60 IQ. He was in mainly mainstream classes at Michigod High School. He had some special ed classes. You know, coercion is the issue. Agreed. I think that MSM editing is the issue, to be honest. I think that the way they edited Brendan's confession,

they showed you 10 minutes or probably 10 hours of statements and interviews and cherry-picked exactly what they wanted you to see. That's the issue, is how they portrayed his confession, how they portrayed everything else in their film. And that's why the public felt outraged, because when you look at that confession, what they showed on Making a Murder, my heart was broken. I wanted Brendan to be free.

And I think Brendan is a much different situation than Stephen. I think Brendan would have never done anything like this on his own. But to say Brendan was completely coerced and fed the answers, when he knew there was information that he liked them too. So I completely disagree with that part of it. And I just wanted to say that because I think that it's very much unfair what the editor, the filmmakers did. And John's right. They were advocates for Stephen Avery. They had phone calls with Stephen Avery. They were his buddy. So for them to say that they were not looking for, they were out for criminal justice reform,

then tell a true story. Don't embellish it, don't omit, don't splice, and don't cut out important parts of the prosecution's side. Let people make their own decision and show a true story, not their story, not their forced narrative. That's how I feel about how people were influenced by this film. Also, if I'm on yet, also, if somebody wants a quick, concrete example of creative editing, without looking at 10 hours of interviews and comparing them to the short ones that were shown of making a murder,

look at some of the graphic examples in Ken Kratz's book on how that was edited from the testimony, from the transcripts, compared to what was in Making a Murderer. You know, it was a hack job, and it ruined people's lives. I still feel sorry for Ken Kratz for what happened to him on different things. But the whole thing is, people have to remember this is not about Brendan Dassey's capacity. Somewhere people have to remember this is about Teresa Hallmark and what happened to her. It is about Brendan.

It is about Brendan. It's about whether a juvenile received justice, whether he was given due process under the law. Those are the legal issues. You're raising an issue of whether... Those came up in his appeal. Those all were addressed in his appeals, and they were turned down. Well, actually... Everything came up in his appeal. the same exact thing. Right. And it was rejected just two weeks ago. So I'm sorry, a week ago. And this is an issue that's going to be raised to the Supreme Court. I mean, it was a very close decision. It was a four three split. And that's a long shot. And I'll be the first one to tell you that. That's a long shot. But what I'm saying is if the court wants to get its head out of the clouds and actually look at this,

it's a question of whether the police should be able to interrogate juveniles and those with limited mental capacities and use their read technique, which is the technique the detective used, and use that on juveniles. That's changing law. The new, that's changing law. You know that's not possible at the Supreme Court level. They're asking to change law. Our program today would not be possible without our partners. I really can't thank you enough for joining us. And I can't thank our partners enough for making our program possible. And I want to thank this partner that means a lot to me, Link AKC.

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Linkakc, thank you for being our partner here today. Detective Tom Fassbender, Brenda, working on the case, John Lee from the Post Crescent, and Vinu Vengis. Thank you to all of you listening. We are not letting up on the Teresa Hallback case. Nancy Grace, I'm Tori signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart podcast.