Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Man blames cough syrup for stabbing wife 123 times & Child killed when 325-lbs woman sits

Episode Date: October 20, 2017

The wanna-be pastor who claims a bad dream induced by a cold medicine overdose caused him to kill his wife allegedly stabbed and slashed his bride 123 times. Nancy Grace looks at the autopsy of Lauren Ashley-Nicole Phelps, including People reporter Steve Helling, crime scene expert Sheryl McCollum, & psychologist Caryn Stark. A Florida woman is charged with killing a 9-year-old by sitting on the little girl. Reporter Drew Nelson joins Grace, Stark and McCollum to discuss. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. February 2004, Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series the disappearance of maura murray saturdays 7 6 central and 9 8 central on oxygen the new network for crime crime stories with nancy grace on sirM Triumph, channel 132. This young aspiring pastor charged with murdering his Sunday school teacher wife. I think I told my wife.

What do you mean by that? What happened? 28-year-old Matthew Phelps arrested after a detailed and disturbing call to 911. I had a dream and then I turned on the lights and she's dead on the floor. How? How? How? Between labored breaths and alarming admission. I have blood all over me and there's a bloody knife on the bed and I think I did it. I can't believe this. A disoriented sounding caller telling the dispatcher he took cough medicine to sleep the night before. It qualifies that yes it looks like I did kill her the knife is here I have blood all over me however this medicine made me do it.

A beautiful young Sunday school teacher stabbed to death in her own bed. The alleged perpetrator covered in blood. We want answers. This is the autopsy report just released. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to the urgent 911 call. 911, what's the address of your emergency?

Patuxent Drive. Okay, I'm just going to read that address to make sure we have it right. Patuxent Drive, Raleigh, North Carolina. Okay, and what is your first and last name? Phone number you're calling from? Phone number? Yes, sir. Tell me exactly what happened. I think I killed my wife.

What do you mean by that? What happened? I had a dream, and then I turned on the lights, and she's dead on the floor. How? How? I have blood all over me, and there's a bloody knife on the bed. And I think I did it. Okay. Give me, stay on the phone with me. I'm getting our ambulance, okay? I can't believe this.

I can't believe this. When did you wake up to find this? I don't even know what time it is. Alright, stay on the phone with me sir. I just got to ask you a few questions, okay? I'm getting some help to you. Are you with the patient now? Yeah, I can see her. Okay, alright, how old is the patient? She's 29. Yeah, I can see her. Okay, alright, how old is the patient? How old is your wife?

She's 29. Okay, is she awake at all right now? What makes you think she's dead? Is she awake? She's not breathing. Okay. Oh my God. Okay, do you think she is beyond any help? I don't know.

I'm too scared to get too close to her. Okay, just stay on the phone with me, sir. I'm here with you. I'm here with you. I'm so scared. All right, I've already sent the paramedics to help you, okay? I'm sending someone to assist you. Just please leave everything as you found it. Is there anything elseamedics to help you, okay? I'm sending someone to assist you. Just please leave everything as you found it.

Is there anything else we can do for you? So where's the knife right now? Knife's on the bed. I'm not next to it, so I don't have a weapon on me or anything like that. Okay. When did you wake up? No. I don't know. I don't know.

I took more medicine than I should have. What medicine did you take? I took horse-eating, cough and cold, horse-eating, HPT cough and cold because I know it can make you feel good. So a lot of times I can't sleep at night. Okay. All right. What is it? What are you sure it's not breathing? She's not losing. Oh my God. Okay, I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna stay here with you. Okay, just Just let's at least see if she's breathing, okay? All right. Just can you see her from where you're at? Yeah, it's so bad. Okay.

Okay, all right. I'm going to stay here on the phone with you until help gets there, okay? Just don't touch anything. Just look at if is she breathing at all is her chest moving is anything going on with her no okay well we're gonna we're gonna leave it on me it's dried the blood is not wet on me. The blood is dry. Okay. I don't know what I... Oh, my God. All right, well, we're going to at least try to help her, okay? All right, just give me this... All right, I've already sent the paramedics to help you.

Just down the line, I'm going to tell you exactly what to do next, okay? Are you right by her? Oh, my God. I think I can I can see her, but oh my God. Stay with me, sir. I know this is upsetting, but we're going to try to do as much for her as we can. If you're not sure that she's gone, we're going to try to help her, okay? So just listen carefully. Oh my God.

Just listen, okay, sir? First, just look at her right now. Tell me what you see. Is the chest moving? Is she breathing? Anything at all? No, she's at her right now. Tell me what you see. Is the chest moving? Is she breathing? Anything at all? No, she's not moving at all. Oh, my God.

I hope you didn't deserve this. Why? I understand, sir. I understand. But right now, we just want to make sure we're doing as much as possible. Is there anyone else at all in the home with you? So is it just you and her? Where are you in the house? Where are you in the house, sir? I'm in the back of the house. There's a light on it. Okay, well... All right, is the door unlocked? I don't know.

Can you go do that for me, sir, that way the paramedics can get in? Are you able to do that for me, sir? That way the paramedics can get in? Are you able to do that? No. Okay, go ahead and stay on the phone with me. Go ahead and unlock the door, okay? I'm sorry, but I'm sorry. What did you say, sir?

I'm sorry, buddy. Go ahead and unlock the door. Let me know when she's done that, okay? Let me know when the door's unlocked. Okay, you said officers are there? Okay, I'm going to let you go. I'm going to let you go. Yes, we're talking about the so-called cough syrup killer. The aspiring Bible student graduated, becoming a pastor anytime now. Instead, claims he was high on cough syrup

when he gets home from his job as a lawn care worker. High on cough syrup and in some kind of a daze murders his young wife. Now, this is what is so critical. In the last hours, the autopsy report has been revealed. Joining me right now, Steve Helling from People Magazine, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, and Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York. Steve Helling, you're on the case. Explain to me the very latest on the Kofsor murder.

The autopsy report came out and it is brutal. She had 123 either stab wounds or slash wounds, you know, knife wounds, including, and this is crazy to me, 24 stab wounds and 20 cuts to her neck and head. So that's 44 slashes or stabs and 20 cuts to her neck and head. So that's 44 slashes or stabs with a knife on her neck or head. Then she had them on her torso. And then there were all sorts of them on her arms too. Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, I appreciate your exuberance.

That's always nice in a man to be enthusiastic. Can you slow it down? I feel like I'm drinking out of a fire hydrant. Break it down for me. Too much at at once i've got to analyze literally i mean cheryl mccollum you were right there in the courthouse and i was trying cases when i had an autopsy report i literally would have to study each line because it's it's a foreign language it's like you're in medical school trying to understand what they're saying cheryl to pick apart an autopsy report is no easy thing for a layperson. Oh, it's not at all, Nancy, and I agree with you. Line by line, word for word, it's going to paint a picture here. So as much as I appreciate the enthusiasm,

Steve Helling from People Magazine, slow down the train. Now, start at the beginning. The first thing I heard was 123 stab wounds. I really don't know if I need to hear anything else because I don't know how any, let me just say it, jackass, could sleep through 123 stabs and then wake up and his wife is dead. But you know what? I'm reserving judgment till I hear the whole thing. Tell me, Steve, start at the beginning. Autopsy report. Like we said, 123 wounds, which,

you know, some of them were very deep and some weren't. But, you know, there was a struggle and it was quite a struggle. And it's obvious that this wasn't just, you know, the first stab wound was not the one that killed her. To Cheryl McCollum, crime scene expert and the director of the Cold Case Institute. Cheryl, let's just say without dating ourselves, this is not our first rodeo. Let's talk about what exactly, you know another thing Cheryl, what I like to do when I look at a crime scene. First of all, I want everybody to be quiet. Let me just

look at it. Let me look at every single thing. I'll never forget a Jane Doe murder. And I was at the scene where the body was found. And I saw her earring about two feet away from the body. And people had already started stepping on it. I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. That was so significant, that one thing, Cheryl,

because if you looked at her naked ear, you could see that the earring had been ripped from the ear. The other earring was lost. Okay. That said to me that I was not at just the disposal site, that this was where the crime occurred because ripping out an earring tells me there was a struggle right there. It turned out that that was correct. And it was way out in an open field way down in South Atlanta. I don't know if anyone would ever have looked there. But see, that told me something. That one earring told me this Jane Doe had been transported there from where?

We finally, through circumstantial evidence, figured out she had gotten off a MARTA train station. And that that was the killer's M.O. Turned out this was not his first murder. He would get people coming off a MARTA train and from that one clue as it turned out Cheryl McCollum we could crack really the whole timeline and scenario and find the killer. So one clue, one fiber, one bit of DNA, anything can help prove a case. Do you agree or disagree, Cheryl McCollum? I completely agree. And, Nancy, in this case, specifically, with all of those injuries and wounds, I'm going to want to know how many are defensive, if any,

how many are post-mortem, if any, and how then did she wind up on the floor if they were asleep at the time. So the timeline is going to be what time does he say they went to bed? Was she awake when this happened or was she asleep? And he claims on the 911 call, if you remember, he says he just woke up and there was blood all over him. Well, if that's the case, that means he slept somewhere. So there should be blood on the floor where he slept or in the bed where he allegedly slept. So that's going to tell whether his story has any credibility at all.

The preacher who blames his wife's murder on a cough syrup overdose now according to the autopsy report actually stabbed her 123 times. The 29 year old North Carolina woman whose newlywed husband tells 9-1-1 he OD'd on coal medicine was slashed and stabbed. She was found in a fetal position. To Steve Helling from People Magazine, I'm sure she had defensive wounds on her arms and knees, correct? I mean, if she was in a fetal position, that means she was curled up trying to protect herself, right? Exactly. And you know, we know for sure that there were 35 cuts and stab wounds to her left arm and then also 16 cuts on her right arm. And, you know, considering that she had a defensive wound on a woman's knees. She had been beaten with probably a bat and then her home set on fire.

She died from smoke inhalation ultimately, but she had a blow to the head. I'm sure you remember the case I'm talking about. But Cheryl, when the medical examiner said, yeah, that's a defensive wound, I said, on her knee? And he went, yes, because you're curling up and you're getting blows from your elbow down when you're holding your arms up on your hands, and you're curling your knees and legs up, so you're getting defensive wounds on your kneecaps and from the knees down, really. That's where you see the most leg defensive wounds. Would you agree with that, Cheryl?

Yes, of course, Nancy. And that's my point about her winding up on the floor. She was trying to get away from the bed to the floor. She did that, trying to get away from those blows. And I mean, 123, Nancy. And keep in mind, whatever the scenario is, he has to go somewhere to get the knife. He has to come back and have this horrific assault on her. And then the knife winds up on the bed when she's on the floor.

And then again, he's claiming he went and slept somewhere while the blood dried on him. You're talking about a great deal of time and a lot of moving around, Nancy. Yeah, for the blood to dry. With me is renowned psychologist out of Manhattan, Karen Stark. Karen, a grand jury met on this case, and they determined the charge was not involuntary, which is under the influence of a drug or alcohol or voluntary, which we also see in DUI, vehicular homicides, but premeditated murder, which means that they believe he had time to plan it, intent to kill. Now, of course, intent, Karen, as you and I have discussed, can be formed in the twinkling of an eye. From the time it takes you to point a gun and pull the trigger, that's long enough for intent to form.

It doesn't have to be a long, well-planned scheme. This jury, obviously, on what they heard, did not buy. I was high on cough syrup, and I don't remember what happened. They're calling it premeditated murder. What do you think, Karen? I know they were under a lot of financial stress. He never got a job as a pastor. He was, you know, cutting grass.

She was working. She had a degree. She was working, I think, as a forensic accountant or an auditor, I think it was. And then even had a second job trying to sell home goods from home. You know, she was working like crazy. Do you think the marriage was falling apart, Karen? I think that there was something really wrong with him, Nancy. Even if he were affected by the cough medicine, whatever it was that he was claiming,

it would disinhibit him, and there would be that part of him would come out and obviously we can take off medicine and we don't wind up killing somebody. There's another side to this guy that is not this wonderful husband, this Instagram perfect person who loves his wife. He posted in the past that there was a dark side to him and talked about his dreams and that since he was young, that he has night terrors and hallucinations.

There's more to him than we really understand. Wait, wait, wait, wait. What are you saying? Who said he's got a dark side to him? I bet nobody knew that at Bible school. He did. Tell me about that, please. In a previous text and things that he had written on his Instagram page,

he called himself Marty Radical, and there were photos of him dressed in black. He quotes from a band, There is Evil in My Head. Wait a minute, do we have the same guy? Are you talking about 29-year-old Matthew James Feltz? Yes, I am. Okay, whoa, whoa. Cheryl McComb, did you know this? Nancy, I had seen a couple of writings about that, and here's the deal. I think he's either alibi building Nancy to say, hey, I'm going to use this later to say I was just dreaming. I don't know anything. Or it is very possible that that is basically a confession. I'll take either one. I want to go back through it very slowly, if you don't mind, Karen, so I can understand

what you're saying. Tell me exactly what you know about his frame of mind, Karen Stark. What it was, was on Instagram, he had posted, I'm not sure when, in the past, and said that he was, he called himself Marty Radical. There were photos of him dressed in black. He quoted lyrics by a heavy metal band saying, there is evil in my head, just let me be. And he said that ever since he was little,

and here's the direct quote that I read, I've had some strong activity with my dreams. Nightmares, night terrors, sleepwalking, hallucinations, and controlled dreams have all

filled my life so far. Steve Helling with People Magazine, because all of this that Karen and Cheryl are alluding to, his postings, his dark dreams, I mean, I don't know what kind of dark dreams he was having at Bible school. Nobody seemed to know about it there. But now suddenly he's having dark dreams, dresses in black and calls himself Marty Radical. Sounds like he's paving the way for a mental defense. I mean, why didn't they just break up, Steve Helling, for Pete's sake? Well, that's a good question. You know, I went to Bible college, Nancy, and I do know that there's this push. You get married. Marriage is for life.

This is what it is. And if you're unhappy, that's sometimes just the way it goes. And so I don't know if he just felt pressure not to split up. I don't know if he had this dark side. I don't know if this dark side is calculated. But what I do know is that he had a side of himself that nobody in his life seemed to really know about. And now it's coming out. Well, wait a minute.

He had it on Instagram. How can you say nobody knew about it? Yes, but you know what? I mean, if Karen Stark and Cheryl McCollum know about it, I would pretty much say his wife and family and friends knew. You know what? You say that, but I know so many people who do things online and just their spouse never sees it or they don't talk about it with their spouse you know i can't imagine that she

thought for a minute that her life was in any sort of danger otherwise she would have left him so you know i think this came out of nowhere for her i i don't know about that uh because karen stark i agree with almost everything you said, Steve Helling, with People Magazine. But Karen Stark, a lot of times, for instance, in abusive relationships, you stay in it never dreaming that one day it's going to be your last day. That that blow is going to, you know, knock you down the stairs and you break your neck or whatever. You're going to get pushed in front of a car. I don't know the scenario, but women stay in relationships without realizing or without allowing themselves to realize they are in mortal danger. That's not that uncommon. I mean, domestic homicides, for Pete's sake, that's the number one cause of death amongst

pregnant women. It's homicide. It's not blood pressure. It's not childbirth. It's homicide. That's right, Nancy. It's so much about feeling terrible about yourself and hoping and believing that the person that you're with will change. And they were married. She keeps posting all these beautiful pictures of the two of them. So there's a lot of denial that was going on here. They're struggling financially and she's making them look like the prince and princess of happy coupledom. I don't think that she really understood that this was possible. And as for why he would do that instead of just leaving her, I mean, when you have that kind of a rage inside of you, you have a desire to carry it out. You know, you touched on so many important factors right there that are going to come in front of

this jury because that's where it's headed. He's not going to plead flat out to life without parole or the death penalty. That's not going to happen. He's going to have a showdown in court. Why not roll the dice and see if a jury comes back with a not guilty, a hung jury, or a lesser like voluntary manslaughter. Maybe some nut on the jury would buy the cough syrup defense. But I want to talk about what Karen just said. Steve Helling, is it true that when police left that home, they took four computers, receipts, a mortgage statement, a knife set, credit cards, and Lauren's iPhone. All that taken from the home because typically if there's an accident in the home, they don't start rifling through your mortgage statements.

There's a reason they took that, Steve Helling. They were in financial trouble, and he would not get off of his bum and go get a job with a church or some type of religious organization or foundation to bring in some money to the home. He was just fine with cutting whatever. Yeah, I find it interesting. The things that are on this, you know, they got from the search on their search warrant. We're not just, you know, obviously the knives make sense, the bed sheets, that makes sense, but they also got a lot of things so that they could reconstruct this couple's life. The best way to do that is to take their phones, their computers, their receipts.

You'll know, you know, the police will know everything about their finances and whatever debt they were in and everything just on the things that they took. So they must be trying to come up with some sort of motive for why this happened, because these aren't physical items that would have been used in a murder. These are actually, you know, things from their life. Well, I can tell you one thing, Steve Howling. I know you're the crack investigative reporter for People magazine, but when it comes to men killing women, it's either money or sex.

Okay, ladies, am I wrong? Help me out here women, it's either money or sex, okay? Ladies, am I wrong? Help me out here, McCollum. Money or sex, it always is. I mean, a woman will get mad because you didn't leave a rose on her pillow for the anniversary, and she'll blow your head off. But a man, it's always money or sex. Always.

Sorry, man. Sorry to break that to you, Alan Duke and Steve Helling. But there's your two motives. You don't think there's a girlfriend floating around out there, do you, Cheryl? I think there's a girlfriend, a boyfriend. There's some reason he wants out and had to do it this way. But Nancy, I want to point out something else really quickly. Look at the

details he gave. I'm covered in blood. The blood is dry. He gave the exact location of the knife. but then he just says, I had a dream. He gives no details of the dream. Was he being attacked in the dream? Was he the attacker in the dream? Was he fighting some mythical creature? I call BS on his story. You know what? You're so darn smart, Cheryl McCollumollum what was his dream I had a dream okay what dream you're so right I guarantee you this much he'll know what the dream is by the

time he goes to trial Cheryl McCollum he'll have that dream down pat he'll know exactly what happened I mean he'll be crying on the stand in tears telling the jury about this bad dream. So, Karen Stark, you know, I know you spend your days thinking deep thoughts about psychology and dealing with all your clients and patients, but you know it's money or sex. It's one of the two, right, Karen? I mean, I know that's pretty simplified, elementary, rudimentary for you, but can you weigh in on that? He may also be a sociopath. pretty simplified, elementary, rudimentary for you. But can you weigh in on that? He may also be a sociopath. He may be somebody who has just been looking for an opportunity to kill.

To me, when you read those posts that he allegedly wrote on Instagram, that's as though he's coming up with a defense ahead of time, you know, that he has these vivid dreams and he enacts things. So I don't really know when it comes to this guy. Money or sex, yes, in most instances. But he stabbed her so many times that it makes you wonder, you know, like what was really going on with him psychologically. And he just may be someone who enjoys killing, has been waiting to do something like this. Let's pause just one moment to thank our partner. It's Link AKC. Guys, you know how much I love our family dog Nitro, aka Fatboy,

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Hello, code Nancy, N-A-N-C-Y, to save 30% on your order with free shipping at linkakc.com. Linkakc.com, code Nancy. Thanks, Link AKC. You know, I remember Cheryl McCollum reading a book. This was before I had the twins and acquired my new motto. If I have time to read a book, I have time to write a book. This is when I still got to read books. And I was reading a passage. I think it was some book that was trying to convince you

to be a vegetarian, believe it or not. Yes. And Cheryl, it was talking about that. Just go with me for a minute, Steve Helling, quick groaning that when you are OK, you're going through a walk, just say in Central Park and a little chipmunk crosses your path, is your first inclination to chase down the chipmunk and eat it? Because mine is not. Okay. But if you see an apple growing on a tree, you kind of have a natural instinct, you want to go pick the apple, or the fig or whatever it is, it's just a natural instinct, it fits in your hand, it's not running away from you. I mean, it's kind of a natural instinct. It fits in your hand. It's not running away from you. I mean, it's kind of a natural instinct, okay?

And that's always stuck with me. And I never explained it that way. I actually explained it to juries with a story about a frog and a scorpion as to what is someone's nature. But that's another story. But what I'm saying is Karen Steve Helling is talking about his nature had he always is that his nature does he want to chase down the chipmunk and skin it and eat it I mean is his nature to kill and this is his opportunity to do it or did he kill for sex for love for some other girlfriend because of money problems,

because he wanted out of the relationship because he realized he didn't want to be married. But is it true, Steve Helling, that he actually sliced her jugular vein? Yes, it is. That was one of the many wounds on her, you know, on her neck area. So yeah, I mean, listen, I understand the idea of money or sex. And you know, I don't want to be married anymore. But you know, that's when you cut the brake lines in the car or something like that. That's not when you stab somebody 123 times. That's more than just, I have a girlfriend on the side or we're having money problems. There's a rage there. It's totally different. You know what, you're right. I know you're an investigative reporter for the Incredible People magazine,

but I think you may have a side career in therapy because 123 stab wounds, including the jugular, Karen Stark, that's a rage killing. Without a doubt, Nancy. And that's why I really don't think this has to do with, oh, he was this fantastic guy and then overnight he took this cough medicine and became a rage killer this has been oh it wasn't overnight Marty Radical had been in existence for a really long time yes sure about this Jackie has

a very insightful question which it would have probably taken me three weeks in front of a jury before it popped in my head. But Cheryl McCollum stabbing or slicing someone in their jugular vein. Let's think about that. That one thing. Just a moment. Because if he was in a frenzy killing, I mean, yes, I guess technically he could have sliced her in the neck. But, I mean, when people are trying to protect themselves, I think that had to be an intentional thing to specifically go for her jugular.

No doubt. But Nancy, here's the thing. This guy was in a rage, there's no question. And this could have been that he was going after her because of something that she was going to do. If she was going to leave him, if she was going to tell people the reason why, and he was not going to let that happen. So to me, it has more of that feel to it. He was going to stop her from either outing him for being gay, outing him for being broke,

outing him for being abusive, whatever it was, he was stopping her. Steve Helling, did she have on her pajamas? Was she dressed for bed when she was killed? Was she naked? Did she still have on her clothes from earlier that evening? Because that would really tell me a lot. That's a good question. I'm looking here at the report to see if there's anything about that.

I don't know the answer to that. I know the number of stab wounds and that type of thing. It would be really interesting to know what she was wearing because that would tell us, you know, what she was thinking at the time. Was she on her way out the door or was she asleep? Exactly. Exactly. That's what I'm saying, Cheryl McComb, about one clue can completely crack open your theory. Because if she had on her PJs, you know how when you're getting in bed and you're going to sleep very often, you'll start going, I'm unhappy.

Or I want to tell you what happened about so-and-so, because it may be the first time you actually you're not in motion, in movement. You lay down to go to sleep and you've got that 20 minutes or so before you fall off to sleep. That could have been when they got into a discussion if she had on her pjs or did she have on remember that night before she was murdered she did a video for scentsy s-c-e-n-t-s-y i think is selling candles you know like yankee candles or whatever they are now um um she was selling them you know like a little home business. Did she have that outfit on? Because to me, that would totally torpedo his claim he was asleep. That would have meant he stabbed her dead before they ever even got in bed,

and his whole story is a lie. So it really matters, right, Cheryl? Absolutely. It matters completely, Nancy. That's why I'm saying his version of what time did y'all go to bed? And that was my point earlier where he claims he just woke up. I can guarantee you there's no blood on his side of the bed where he went back to bed. There's not a spot of blood near her where he laid down and, you know, took the rest of his sleep there and then suddenly woke up with blood all

over him. There's not going to be that secondary stain anywhere. Guys, what we are talking, what you're hearing right now is exactly how I would build a murder case. You go through, like we've just gotten the autopsy report on this beautiful young girl and we are gleaning every shred of probative evidence from the autopsy report we can. And we are asking the questions that would prove or disprove one theory or the next. This is how cases are built. You find your deficiencies. You try to shore them up or you prepare to fight them.

And what you're hearing right now, wouldn't you agree, Cheryl, is how we prepare cases to take to a jury exactly like this. Oh, no doubt. And Nancy, I remember something else you did one time a long time ago. It came down to mascara. There was a woman that had been murdered by her husband, and he claimed that she had already left for work. That was his story, so he didn't know what had happened to her. I remember. She did not have on makeup. Remember that? I just remembered it now that you said it. Oh, yeah.

And this young woman, she had just put up a video. She's in makeup. If she's killed with makeup on, then she hasn't finished her nightly routine to remove that makeup. Cheryl McCollum, you know what? And they're going to be able to prove it with something just that simple. You know what?

I forgot all about that case. I mean, I remember the murder. And now I remember she had a pretty high-powered job, like not AT&T, but something corporate. And she would always, you'll remember the days, we always had to wear a suit or a dress, pantyhose. I know they were created by men. They're like little torture chambers for your pelvis. And okay, so she would always wear pantyhose, heels, a suit.

And I remember she had short brown hair. Of course, she was the only one working in the home, supporting her husband and children. Nothing wrong with that and um she never would go into the office without her lunch she always made her lunch to save money and she would always be perfectly made up and she was found. She had on her work clothes, but she did not have on, you're right, she did not have on her mascara or her makeup, which proved to me she was not really on her way to work. She was not about to get out of the car and go into the office. She was killed at home and then put in that car,

and the car was left in a parking garage because of the mascara. You're right, Cheryl McCollum. Exactly. And that is how you prove a case. And now we head to Pensacola, Florida, the Gulf Shore. A little girl is dead. Why? According to police, a 325 pound adult woman sat on the nine year old little girl as punishment. As punishment, she sat on her for 12 minutes, depriving her of oxygen.

The little girl is dead. You know, right when I think I've seen it all, I find out I haven't. Joining me right now, Crime Stories contributing investigative reporter Drew Nelson. Drew, let's start at the beginning. What happened? This was supposedly a punishment for this little girl. She's nine years old. Her name is Derrica Lindsey.

Nine-year-old little girl and her cousin, who's a much older cousin. She's in her 60s. This woman, the police are saying she sat on the girl because she was acting out of control, sat on her to where she couldn't breathe. So what I know is Derricka Lindsay of Pensacola, this little nine-year-old girl, goes into cardiac arrest after she complains she couldn't breathe when her much older cousin, who she called Aunt Veronica Green Posey, sat on her to punish her for acting, quote, out of control. I mean, a nine-year-old little girl, that could be them yelling or

singing or slamming the door. It could be anything. She sat on her as punishment. Paramedics race to the scene, and the nine-year-old little girl was rushed to Baptist Hospital where she was immediately pronounced dead. Now, this woman, the aunt, the cousin, tells police she sat on the girl in an armchair to discipline her for, quote, being out of control. When she stood up, she says she realized the girl was unresponsive and tried CPR. Now, Posey says she weighs 325 pounds. I'm shocked. Karen Stark, psychologist, joining us. I've never heard of anything like it.

Neither have I, Nancy. It's such an extreme punishment for a 9-year-old. I mean, I've heard of timeout, but this is actually abusive. You don't have to hit somebody to be abusive. This is a case where someone is using all their weight and actually killing a little girl as punishment. Well, another thing we know, and spanking or not spanking is a whole other can of worms.

A swat on the booty. I tried to swat the twins on the booty especially Lucy John David's just Mr. Happy Lucy you do not well I tried when they were about two and they had on such thick pull-ups they just looked at me like what what did you just do what was that I I just you know I gave up right then then I went with time out which is really like a punishment to me because there's no lock on the door and I have to stand there to keep Lucy in timeout. Now my life is a lot easier. I can just say, I'm taking away your iPad and suddenly everybody shapes up. Even my husband, taking away your iPad, everybody just falls in line, lockstep.

It's awesome. No more timeout. No me having to be the bathroom door policewoman. So here, I don't quite understand the significance of sitting on a little bitty, very small-framed, nine-year-old girl trapped in an armchair. There's nowhere she could go. She sat there and went into cardiac arrest, Drew Nelson. Do we have any other information about what she did to deserve that, Drew Nelson? I cannot tell you what she deserved, other than what the police said that her aunt, her cousin, who they called her aunt, said she was out of control. But I tell you what is so unbelievable about this. The last moments of this little girl's life, the last thing she did was complete.

She said, I can't breathe. She was conscious throughout this whole thing. And the last thing she did was say she can't breathe. And then she couldn't breathe anymore. She stopped breathing. That's the point that the cousin had to start doing CPR. She said, I can't breathe and was crying, crying to be set free. We also know this fact to Alan Duke joining me from L.A. We know her parents were also charged in the incident. James Smith, Grace Smith, charges of child neglect for failing to report the abuse. Also, Grace Smith charged with cruelty toward a child. And of course, guess what?

Posey is already out on bond. Why? Why is she out on bond? Let's look at her parents. First of all, her mother, the person listed as her mother on the arrest report, Grace Joan Smith, is 69 years old. So I'm assuming that this child was adopted perhaps from another family member. But the mom was 69. The dad, James Edmund Smith, also charged 62.

So these perhaps were actually her grandparents. That's one assumption I would make. But they called Posey over to their house. They were neighbors, and not only that, being her aunt. They're listed as the parents. What does that mean? I don't know. The arrest report says that the mom, Grace Smith, called her niece, Posey, over to her house asking for help because she said, Derricka is just out of control. So Posey came over, this 325-pound woman came over and hit the child with a ruler and a metal pipe. That's when Derricka ran into the armchair, sat in it,

and that's when Posey allegedly sat on her for 10 minutes, causing the death. A 9-year-old little Florida girl is dead after a 325-pound woman sits on her as punishment. The little girl is crying, saying she can't breathe. She's trapped in an armchair because with an arm on either side and a 325 pound weight on you, there's nowhere for you to go. The little girl begging for help. Karen Stark, did you hear

about the pipe and the ruler being beaten with a pipe and a ruler? Yes, this isn't your regular punishment as you were talking about, Nancy, with the kind of family that we're used to. And I want to tell you something. When we were taught, if we were working with kids that were out of control and severely emotionally disturbed kids, we were never taught to sit on them. We were taught to hold their arms wrapped around them so they couldn't hurt themselves. Never, ever have I heard of punishment by crushing somebody. That's just unnatural, cruel, so extreme that it's hard to talk about it. A nine-year-old crushed by a man. Hitting a child with a pipe? I mean, right there, that should have landed them behind bars

for child endangerment or child cruelty. But imagine this feeling the little girl had, Karen, where her parents and this 325-pound cousin-slash-aunt were all ganged up on her. I mean, when your child is in distress, they look to Mommy. Mommy, help me. Mommy, come now. Help me. But Mommy and Daddy were in on it.

Yep. They were colluding with her to harm this little girl. I mean, what happened to you need to control yourself, go to your room, calm down, we want to hear what you have to say. No, they were all colluding to do extreme punishment, possibly injuring her, and no one seemed to be able to pull themselves together and say, there could be terrible outcomes as a result of this. This is awful.

Well, also we know, of course, Drew Nelson, we learned that a guy named Mike Carroll, he's the secretary of the Florida Department of Family and Children's Services, issues a statement calling her death appalling and claiming they will now work with the sheriff's office. But he also says the family has had prior interaction with the child welfare system. You know what that means, Drew? There's been trouble before and they left the girl in the home and now she's dead.

I sound like a broken record, Drew Nelson. There's a history here. Something that we've got to dig into deeper with this, the mother and the father, Grace and James Smith. Now, I see that they are still in jail. That's what the records show that they haven't bonded out yet. Now, I don't even know if they were granted bond. So we don't know if there is a deeper, longer case that could be going on here. The person who is accused of sitting, Veronica Posey, who is accused of sitting on the nine-year-old girl, the 325-pound woman, she did bond. She got out on bond, $125,000 bond. I was saying earlier, she's already out. she got out on bond uh 125 000 bond i was saying earlier she's already out she's out on bond and the parents are about to get out they're just getting the money together to get out but i i'm just trying to imagine what this little girl derica went through could it be

karen stark uh this is jackie's theory that sitting on her was just an, quote, easy way to control her? I think it's horrible. What a horrible, horrible way to die as a child. You're outnumbered by three adults, including your mother and father going along with it, as you beg for air and cry, and they let you die. I think it's a death penalty case. I think that it certainly was something that wasn't thought out. Is it an easy way to control her? Yes, if we assume that killing somebody is always an easy way to control them. It's as though they couldn't think of any alternatives, that they couldn't be more creative. All they could

think about is, you know, we'll have somebody crush her without any consequences. We have no idea what this little Derricka lived through before this insane act of a 325-pound she-monster sitting on a very slight nine-year-old little girl until she's dead. You know, they got a one-way ticket to hell as far as I'm concerned with a little pit stop in the penitentiary. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries?

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