Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Manhunt For Brian Laundrie: Take Down on the Appalachian Trail

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

As the search for Brian Laundrie goes on, sightings continue to be reported. Surveillance footage has surfaced of a man resembling the Florida fugitive, riding a bicycle, about three hours north of North Port where Laundrie's parents live. And on the Appalachian Trail, a Laundrie look-alike, got quite the surprise, when agents stormed into his hotel room. The man provided an ID and showed he didn't have Brian's tattoos. He was soon cut loose.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Michael Griffith - International Criminal Defense Attorney, michaelgriffithlawyer.com  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Lee Reiber - Mobile Device Forensic Expert, COO: Oxygen Forensics, Inc., Author: "Mobile Forensic Investigations: A Guide to Evidence Collection, Analysis, and Presentation", oxygen-forensic.com, Twitter: @Celldet and @oxygenforensic  Mahsa Saeidi - Investigative Reporter, WFLA-TV (Tampa), Twitter/Instagram: @MahsaWho, Facebook: "WFLAMahsa" Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. The manhunt for Brian Laundrie, the so-called boyfriend of Gabby Petito, found dead in Wyoming, goes on. This, as yet another sighting of Brian Laundrie emerges. This not too far from the Laundrie home there in Northport. We now know one place the feds are hiding out. Take a listen to our friends at WFLA. Cut 346.

New tonight, a New York man was allegedly held at gunpoint by federal authorities because he was mistaken for Brian Laundrie. That's according to a report by The New Yorker. The magazine claims Severin Beckwith and his partner were in a North Carolina hotel when U.S. Marshals confronted them with guns drawn. Both were hiking the Appalachian Trail. That's the same area where multiple Brian Laundrie sightings have been reported. Well, now we know where some of the feds are anyway.

The U.S. Marshals are apparently staking out the Appalachian Trail. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again with another sighting in Florida, literally as we go to air with video. Where is Brian Laundrie? How has he managed to elude authorities at Escape Justice? Who, if anyone, is helping him? This as a lawsuit has now been filed against Brian Laundrie's father? And why are authorities still searching the Carlton Reserve? Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. With me, renowned psychiatrist, joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold at AngelaArnoldMD.com, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl

McCollum at ColdCaseCrimes.org, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and the star of a new hit on iHeart podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan with me. And boy, do we need an expert on this. Lee Reber. He's going to tell you everything you want to ever know about burner phones, stingrays, surreptitious modes of communication electronically. Mobile device forensic expert, COO of Oxygen Forensics, Inc., author of, get ready, Mobile Forensic Investigations, A Guide to Evidence Collection, Analysis, and Presentation.

Okay, I need to sit down now after I read all that. Oxygen.forensic.com. Lee Reber, you got to come up with a shorter CV for this program. Of course, we've got Masa Saidi, special guest joining us, investigative reporter, WFLA-TV on the scene and a very young lawyer is on his travels and somehow gets tied up in a Turkish prison with an inmate who miraculously escapes, I'm sure, through no help from his lawyer, Michael Griffith, who has now gone on to become a renowned, and I really mean that, international criminal defense attorney, Michael Griffith at michaelgriffithlawyer.com because I'm curious what country, a country that Brian Longer could actually get to that is

feasible, such as Mexico, Cuba, Costa Rica, if they are harboring a U.S. fugitive, would they help the fugitive? Would they help the U.S.? And how do you actually do that? The mechanics of going DEFCON 4 in another country. Is Laundrie that smart? Obviously not. But his parents are very smart. First of all, what about the Appalachian Trail takedown of this guy, this New Yorker, not Brian Laundrie? Take a listen.

Kara, if you could play our cut 347 from News Nation now. There was this guy hiking with his girlfriend about a week and a half ago on the trail. They decided to check into a small hotel for the night. Next thing they know, they say they're asleep. There's a pounding on the door, and it's the U.S. Marshals with their guns drawn. They handcuffed the man. They believed he was Brian Laundrie.

They say they got three or four different calls reporting that it may have been Brian Laundrie. They did a fingerprint check right there on the spot and realized it wasn't him. So that's one thing I'm learning, Cheryl McCollum, is that they are doing their fingerprints right there on the scene to determine if it's Brian Laundrie. So we know one place the feds are hiding out, showing up once there's a signing of Brian Laundrie. Where else are they, Cheryl McCollum?

I think they're everywhere, Nancy. I think they are sitting on go that if they have a viable, credible sighting, they're going to hit it and they're going to hit it with full force with the marshals. You know, apparently it's believed that Brian Laundrie can blend in. Can we just get real for a moment. Michael Griffith, a lot of your clients blend in. They end up across international waters in other countries, and only when they've been living anonymously for some period of time and they get busted, do you get called in? How do they do it, Michael Griffith? Don't name any of your clients as if you would, but how do they blend in? Well, because they're not Brian Wondry and their pictures have not been in the newspapers. You know, Nancy, I've been following this case

very closely because I live in the Hamptons, maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes from where the Petito family lives. And I'll tell you where he's not. He's not in a foreign country. There have been reports he went to Freeport or maybe Mexico. You know, Nancy, nowadays you can't get on a Trailways or a Greyhound bus without showing identification. And when it again to a flying country nowadays?

And in fact, I've had cases in Freeport. You have to have a passport. Well, I mean, of course you have, because you and I got into it on a Tortola case, if you'll recall that, which I might add, they did it, but go ahead. So why do you, but it's not just Brian Laundrie, Michael Griffith. And I agree with you, Laundrie on his own. No, he's not going to, he can't do it. He can't pull it off. But Brian Laundrie, with the help of his parents, who are pretty darn smart, may be able to pull it off. Well, but they still, you know, one of the reports that he left his ID at his house to

get into a foreign country. Now you need a PCR test within 72 hours. You need a tourist card and you need a passport. I believe that he's in the United States. I believe that he didn't commit suicide because if he did, he could have done it in his house. He didn't have to go to a reserve and leave the family car, which could have been vandalized or stolen. I believe that he had some help, that he's in a safe house somewhere because he obviously doesn't have that much money. That's why he went into Gabby's ATM machine.

Well, he doesn't have the money, Michael Griffith, but his parents have the money. Hold on, Michael. Masa Saidi joining me right there on the scene where they are still searching Coral to Reserve. There's got to be a reason why. And I want to know why. Masa, speaking of the parents, they are in the beverage industry. I don't mean liquor. I mean, juicing smoothies. Don't they service smoothie machines or juicing machines all over? Is that what they do? You know, we're still working to confirm that for ourselves, Nancy, but that is

what some of the reporting out there have stated. I can tell you that it's been very quiet at the parents' house in the past couple of days. It just came out to install what appeared to be a doorbell camera, but they're staying inside. They're just not coming out. A doorbell cam? They're putting that up now? Why not have it up when Brian Laundrie took off so he would have an idea about when it really was?

That's a day late and a dollar short. I guess they're angry about the protesters. I don't blame them for that. back to you michael griffith international criminal lawyer you're talking about he needs a covid test and a tourist card and a passport that's for you and me. Okay. That's what we would need because we're not fugitives. I mean, how you get in the country, you think everybody going back and forth the Mexican border has a passport and a COVID test? Seriously? No. So once you get there, how do you blend in? I mean, Olivia Newton-John's boyfriend has been living in Mexico for what, eight or nine years now, and we still haven't found him. So what

about it, Michael Griffith, when your clients get to these countries, how do they stay under the radar? Remember Ethan Couch, the kid that had affluenza, mowed down about five people, killing a couple, leaving the others paralyzed. The only way he got caught because he's an idiot. He used his own cell phone to order pizza at a five-star resort. Hello. Of course, he's caught. But this guy's parents are not idiots, Michael. They could pull it off.

Nancy, let me throw the question back at you. How is he going to get into the foreign country? He can't fly in on a plane because you need identification. He can't rent a car because you need identification. The father obviously didn't drive him to Mexico and come back. That's thousands of hours round trip. Well, hold on. That leads me to my next question.

Cheryl McCollum, how much of a lead did Brian Laundrie have? Nancy, I believe that he was gone possibly by September 8th, but we know he was gone by the 13th. We know that. So he had a major jump on law enforcement as far as I'm concerned. Okay, the sighting that has turned out to be wrong, where the U.S. Marshal rousted some guy out of a motel bed on the Appalachian Trail, that's just the beginning. As we're going to air another sighting of a guy that looks like Brian Laundrie, and there's a video of it. I'm looking at the video over with our friends at Harvey Levin at TMZ, pedaling along a country road purposely out of view on an old rickety bike. Sounds stolen. Take a look at it.

You can look it up at TMZ, and this is in Dunnellan, Florida, a tiny town three hours north of Laundrie's hometown of Northport. On this one, I agree with Michael Griffith. I think that's a lot more possible. What do you know, Joe Scott Morgan? You're joining us from Florida. What can you tell us? Yeah, Nancy, looking at this image, I have to say that it does bear some kind of a resemblance to him. He's wearing a baseball cap. He has a thin beard, dark sweatshirt, and also kind of khaki-looking pants. But the most striking thing about the image, Nancy, is the fact that he has on what appears to be a new or newer survival backpack.

This is not a backpack you would send your kids to school with. This is something that's rather robust. It's thick. It has some height to it, and you can pack a lot of gear in it. And if you just take a look at the backpack, it almost looks like it's newly purchased, Nancy. You know, you compare it to the bicycle and certainly compare it to his clothes. They look kind of wrung out and dingy, not that backpack. And as he is on this bike, it's what they call a sugar sand path. It's a real rickety. It looks like a farm road.

It's got ruts in it. Yeah. You know what about that, Joe Scott? A lot of people are saying, well, he can't ride a bike. That's not true. He's riding it. It's like riding through a ton of sugar. That's what that sand is like.

It's so soft. Okay, to you, Cheryl McCollum, joining us, forensics expert, coldcasecrimes.org. Cheryl, weigh in. Well, the first thing is this is the first video we've had. People said they've seen him without photographs. Then we've had some pretty grainy-looking images. This is the first video of a possible sighting. So we're glad for that. Is it him? I mean, I tend to think he's more than three

hours north from his parents' home after a month, but who knows? And again, every single sighting that is credible should be checked out. Every one. Guys, we are talking about the manhunt going on right now for Brian Laundrie. And believe it or not, apparently the search is still going on within Carleton Reserve. Take a listen to our friend Steve Fabian, Inside Edition, Hour Cut 344. A new twist in the search for Brian Laundrie as police bring in a canine cadaver dog trained to find human remains. The three-year-old black Labrador named Diesel searched the vast swamp where it's claimed Brian Laundrie went hiking and never returned. Now, repeated searches of the 40-square-mile swamp have so far turned up nothing and reportedly cost $1.5 million. You know, I love it how it's always thrown out how much a search is going to cost. That's why

we pay taxes for things just like this. Because if it was my child and I thought the child was suicidal out in the middle of some swamp, I would expect the police to go and search. Bam. So they always put a price tag on it to make people think, hey, it's not worth it. It is worth it. I want to go now to a special guest joining us. But first, back to you, Cheryl McCollum, Dr. Angie, Michael Griffith, Joe Scott, Mossa, everybody weigh in on this question.

I don't think there's any way that Brian Laundrie has eluded police this long without the help of his parents. It's got to be his parents. Has to be them. There's nobody else that has talked to him. The sister Cassie hasn't talked to him. The Petitos certainly haven't talked to him. According to people that know him, he's kind of a loner. Now we know co-workers say he was a quote weirdo. I don't know what that means, but all he has is his parents well they have to be helping what jump in something who is he going to trust their circle is very small right now of course he's not reaching out to

anybody else to help him because holy cow what if somebody got to that other person and paid them some money to to say where he was it has to be his parents that are helping him out. So what about it, Cheryl? I think September 11th is the most critical date because up until then, if he had lied to everybody that Gabby went on by herself to Yosemite with a friend, fine, September 11th changes that for Cassie and the parents. That's when law enforcement contacted them. Since September 11th, not Cassie or her parents have searched for Brian.

People love to say, oh, the dad is now joined the search. No, he hasn't. He went over there one day and pointed out a few trails. That's a tour. That ain't no search. Michael Griffith here. I would opine that because of the police scrutiny, the FBI scrutiny, there's no way that the parents are in touch with him or could give him any kind of assets. Because, as you know, if you lie to the FBI, that's a crime. They can't be sending him money by an ATM machine.

So the question is, how could they be helping him at this point? The only way that I think they can help him is the planning, getting him the equipment, getting him burner phones and getting him to a launch start where he started his he not in the appellation trail take a listen our cut 325 this is our friends at fox news talking to the petita Schmidt families, and they have an idea where he could be. Listen. I'm not certain, but I would think that he's in an area like the Appalachian Trail or a campground where he can live off the land because he had those skills. I don't know for how long, but he did have those skills. What type of skills did he have? I mean, we don't know. Brian Laundrie, you knew him for a number of years, it sounds like. I mean, he was an outdoorsman. So he loved camping. So backpack camping. So basically whatever you could put on your on your back and carry into the woods.

He and Gabby had done that a few times. They had some trips like that, which, you know, that was a little bit more worrisome to us just going into a campground, you know, when they had some trips like that which you know that was a little bit more worrisome to us just going in into a campground you know when they did some areas in the appalachian trail you know you always hear stories about some things that go on there because it is in some desolate areas and and you worry about that but they they did a lot of trips like that why are they still searching carlton reserve out to masasai ed why They've spent all this time and all this money there. There's got to be a reason. And that's what a lot of people are saying.

We did see a flurry of activity last week, including cadaver dogs at that scene. And I know that some outlets, including Inside Edition, are reporting that a million and a half dollars has been spent on this search. I can tell you that there was more than 70 men on site searching for Brian Laundrie in the initial stages. We believe that the search is ongoing every single day, even if we don't spot activity. Like today, we did not spot activity, but it's

very vast just because we don't see it. And the usual spot does not mean that it's not happening. Just two quick points regarding what you guys were talking about earlier. September 11th, when Northport PD went to the house, they did not see Brian. So you cannot say that is when he was last seen. Also last week, I got some new information from the attorney. He told me that Brian Laundrie left September 13th. And he says that Chris Laundrie went out to the reserve on September 13th to look for Brian Laundrie left September 13th, and he says that Chris Laundrie went out to the reserve on September 13th to look for Brian Laundrie, didn't find him, went back home. The next day, Chris and Roberta went out together. They saw that the car was parked. They saw that there was a notice on it, that it might get towed by Northport police. They both spent some time looking for Brian on the

trail. They could not find him. They went home again. And the attorney told me that it was on the 15th that they went back and they picked up the car because they were worried that it might get towed. So a little bit of information. The parents now apparently had been searching for him since the 13th, according to the attorney. Lee Reber, the mobile device forensic expert at Oxygen Forensics, Inc. Lee, I got a lot of questions because I don't believe that Brian Laundrie can survive on his own. I think he has guidance and direction from his parents, money, support, everything. All he has to do is last a period of months without getting caught. And he's home free because this is going to die away from the headlines. People are going to stop looking for him. I think he has altered his

appearance and may have done so before he left home. But I think he's got to stay in touch with his parents. I think he must be doing it by burner phone to go into an Internet cafe or a public library. Way too risky. So tell me how that would work. Lee, Lee Reber, without him getting detected. Yeah, well, you know, honestly, a burner phone back in the day used to be a flip phone. You know, you have a SIM card and it's Now you can go into any convenience store, Walmart. I can go pick one up for $30. I can pay with a gift card.

There no longer used to be. There was a lot more scrutiny. They have locked up. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, what, what, what? Too fast. What? Yeah, so what I'm saying is a burner phone now simply, it used to be a flip phone, right? Now we're talking,

hey, look at it. It could be an Android device that I can get for $30 at any store. I could go in, I can grab it. I can have someone else grab it. I can go steal it. I can go to a pawn shop. Now it has Wi-Fi access. I can go, I can walk around. Wi-Fi is everywhere. I can go and have that information. And people aren't really, they're thinking, they're concentrating on cell sites. OK, that's great. But I can go and communicate with someone through words with friends, Clash of Kings, any application that they're trying to look and think about email. They're trying to think about text messages. I think communication is important. Okay, you know what? Pretend you're speaking a foreign language and nobody speaks it. Explain what you're talking about.

For instance, not everybody knows what is class of kings. Sure, sure. So just think of any game, any game that you utilize on your phone, right? So Words with Friends, it's a Scrabble game. And the Scrabble game, you play with random people, you play with other people, you might have played with your parents, you might have played with your friends. Well, a part of these applications, I can communicate via messages. Actually, messaging app is built within these games. So if I'm communicating

within these, no one's really going to either detect that or look for that. A lot of times when people are doing forensic examinations, they're not looking for these types of applications for communication. They're concentrating on things that are messengers, are emails. And so it's, think back when a lot of information came out of how terrorists were communicating with each other through email, but they would simply leave it in draft so that it was never sent, but they each had the login credentials. So they're able to actually log in and actually read the emails that are stored within drafts. So it's the same thing if we start talking about now we have with these third party messaging applications for communication. So it's honestly very easy to communicate with someone without other people knowing.

If you think Liner, if you're thinking just upon messaging, our standard iMessage or SMS or email. And I think that that becomes an issue with the investigation. And to your point about burner phones, it's extremely easy to obtain these. Obviously, I'm making assumptions. Parents could have burner phones that aren't necessarily tracked to them. Law enforcement might not know about them. And they're using these two communities. Okay, let me ask you a question right there.

Lee Rebra, I feel like I'm drinking out of the fire hydrant. You're giving me so much information at once. I can't take it all in. For instance, here are some of the questions that our listeners and viewers have sent me on Facebook. Do you have to register for a burner phone? How do you pay for a burner phone? Are they paid for in cash or credit card? Can they be traced?

Why or why not? How many hours do you have on a burner phone? How much data? Do you have to have Wi-Fi? Can you send text messages or messages with just a cell? Let's just start with those. Go ahead. not at all i can go and obtain that do i have to go and sign up for the service that might come with it say track phone's one of them do i have to sign up to be able to utilize that well if i want to use the cell side of that sure sure but i can get the and just simply use them because they all are going to be utilizing wi-fi okay wait stop so you're saying he would have to sign up

for the wi-Fi service? So, no, the Wi-Fi service, if I wanted to use that. I mean, sales service. A sales service. Yeah, someone, you would have to say, have to, yeah, the SIM card. If I want to activate that, I can activate that. Yes. But can't you do that in cash and give a fake name? Yes. So there's no real, there's no clue left behind. I could go in. How many hours, let's just say Verizon, can you put on a burner at a time?

Oh, you can, as in hours to communicate and talk? Yes. Yes. It depends. I mean, how much do you want to pay, right, to get that service? $400. How many hours will that burner last? Months. And if they paid that in cash under the name Jackie Howard, then that would not be traceable back to them.

And you can get it at a pawn shop. If you get a burner at a pawn shop, can you also get your sales service activated at a pawn shop? Now, the interesting thing is, so if I went to, here's another, if I went to a pawn shop, I get a phone. The phone's unlocked, which means it allows me to put a SIM card into it from any carrier. I can then walk into a store and simply buy a SIM card. So now I've purchased a phone at a pawn shop. I now have a SIM card from a different store. Let's just go with Quick Trip. Okay, you get a SIM card at Quick Trip. Then what do you do? Yeah, I can go and, yeah, if you have a SIM card, I can slap

that in. Every SIM card comes with, it depends upon the carrier, but it comes with, say, 30 minutes of talk time and 30 minutes of Wi-Fi. If I had a whole bunch of SIM cards that I'd stolen, I could utilize all those. And you don't have to register with a sales service? You will register with a sales service to get tech, which means that, okay, if I went in and I stole this and I can go in and I could put the SIM card into this, it will allow me to activate it. And by activating, you register. Correct. Correct. So the whole registration process isn't like I go up to the counter and go, hi, I want to register for Verizon with this SIM card. Correct. You just stick the SIM card in and you're in business.

You register with that, obviously, and you have, there's already prepaid time that would be in within that SIM card itself. Now, some of the stores have started the activation process of once you purchase that, it activates it, much like a gift card. So they have their art. That's a good comparison. Another theory I've got. Masa Saidi, remember when the parents drove, I don't know, 90 miles to Jacksonville to speak to their lawyer and they coincidentally stopped at a public library? Yeah. I thought that was too much of a coincidence. Why would you stop at probably rightfully fear that their email and their phone calls are being surveilled.

So they come up with a fake email and then they have to go somewhere to access the email, Masa. What was that library? And they never made it to the computers. Right. Yeah. So they spent some time in the library and it was, it was very curious that they decided to meet with the attorney in Orlando, you know, trying to get away from just the intense media that was surrounding their home at the time. So they chose to get out of the Tampa Bay area and drive over

to Orlando for that appointment. Let me ask you this, Lee Reber and Joe Scott, Cheryl, Dr. Angie, Michael Griffith, everybody jump in with questions or comments. We've got X amount of time, and I want to work it. What? I have a $64,000 question. Hit me. If he does have the burner phone, how could he possibly, and this is for Reba, how could he possibly and this is for reva how could he possibly communicate

with the parents because i'm sure the fbi is monitoring uh their phone and their emails because they have a burner phone too yeah exactly i mean and and the whole of going to say a public library you know every service almost every third-party service, if you think about WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, every single one of those allows you to log in via computer. So if I'm communicating, I don't have to have a phone. I can go in and log into the account that we have coordinated. And now I'm able to have all those messages, whether he's speaking to himself or to have somebody else read this because they have the accounting information. They've got a burner phone. Hello. If they're going to go and get him a burner phone and a bunch of SIM cards,

then they have a burner phone. Nancy, Nancy. Yes. Listen, I've had a couple of people ask me this question. This is actually directed to you as well as to Lee. People have asked me, is there any way by law that Brian Laundrie could be in direct communication with this attorney? Yes, that's his attorney. Isn't that right, Cheryl McCollum? Didn't he hire Bertolino the moment he got back in town? And that's one thing I wanted to talk about. The attorney is very careful to call himself the family attorney, even though

he's quoted the parents, he's never quoted Brian. But absolutely, all three of them can communicate with that attorney. That's why I believe they went there on that day because they were fixing to, you know, all four, you know, have a sit down. Well, you know, my thought was, was that, you know, he's on the lam. He's wanted by the FBI. Is the attorney under any obligation to theoretically, theoretically turn him into the authorities? Not unless he's going to commit another crime, right, Michael Griffith? Exactly. And you know something?

The attorney will lose his ticket to practice if he tries to come up with any kind of advice to keep him on the lam. But he is not under the duty to provide location information to the feds. No. No, that's why you have a lawyer to protect you, not hand you over like a Thanksgiving turkey on a silver platter. No, you're right, Joe Scott. So tell the questioners that the lawyer, Bertolino, has no duty at all to reveal the whereabouts of Brian Laundrie, if in fact he knows. But I guarantee you they're communicating either through burner phone

or through another type of account, not their regular emails. And Lee Reber with me from Auction Forensics, Inc. Lee, can you just address a stingray? Because my question is, if the parents are using a burner within their home, which I doubt because they're probably afraid the home is tapped, but if they are using a burner or if they have the burner turned on in their home, could a Stingray device, which is really like a little mobile cell tower, would it pick up the burner phone number? And if so, find out who was texting and what is being texted to that number. Yeah. I mean, you could call it a cell site simulator, right? Sort of the man in the middle.

And, you know, obviously anything that would be coming out of that and attaching to that cell tower in air quotes. Yeah, sure. That could be the information, the international mobile subscriber identity, which would be on the SIM card, as well as the IMEI, which is the mobile equipment identifier, which would be for the phone. They'd be able to take that information and go back to obtain, they call detail records of information from that. So that is definitely possible to do that. If they have the burner on in the home and that burner could reveal any false or pseudo email addresses that they are utilizing. Dr. Angie Arnold, a lot of people say, wow, you know what? That's complicated.

First of all, it's not complicated to go pick up burner phones at a pawn shop and then go to T-Mobile or wherever and get some SIM cards. That's not hard at all. They could get him 20 SIM cards. They're this big and he could easily carry them to stay in touch. Would they do it? This morning, Dr. Angie, my daughter, Lucy said, I said, there's your phone. Take it to school. They can't have it turned on at school. And she said, I'm just going to leave it at home. I'm like, no, no. What if you need me? You need to be able to call me and I need to be able to find you at all times in case you're in trouble. So it was that quick. You want to tell me those parents sent him out without a way to communicate? And you know, Nancy, this all, all of this information leads back to what I said about Brian Laundrie when this first happened.

He is a sociopath. Let's not forget that, okay? Okay, again, break it down, Angie. I'm going to. Not everybody got to go to medical school. Okay. This is so interesting. Okay, Nancy.

Sociopaths don't learn from their mistakes. Okay? They use intelligence and charm and charisma to manipulate others. They try to control other people with threats of aggression. They have very impulsive behavior. They lie for personal gain. Everything we're talking about here describes him as a sociopath. What is burning inside of me every time I read another thing about this family is, what are his parents like? I want to know how he became a sociopath,

how he was raised, and what his parents are like. Speaking of the family, good thoughts. Cheryl McCollum, what's happened to Sister Cassie? Cassie has been such an unbelievable person that gets weaved into this thing every five minutes, Nancy. Again, law enforcement contacts her on the 11th of September. She doesn't rush to her parents and say, we've got to go find Gabby. She doesn't say, you know, what in the world's going on. She stays away from her family and her brother.

But at that point, she knows Gabby's formally missing. And what happens? The FBI comes and visits her and says, hey, don't talk to nobody. She goes on Good Morning America. The lawyer says, oh, by the way, Cassie did, you know, have a chance to talk to him because she was at the campsite. Well, then at that point, what happens again? Cassie ramps it up. Cassie puts herself back in this thing and says, okay, well, let me tell you what all went down at the campsite. We had this deed. We did that. You know, Brian, that ain't his car. That's a parent's car. They all came over here. She, to me, is somebody that they need to stay on top of.

She's the only one willing to talk. She's the only one that I believe has information on just how involved the parents would be because she knows the dynamics of that home. I still don't have an answer from anybody, and I know we don't know definitively, but for Pete's sake, take a stab at it, okay? Why are they still searching Carleton Reserve? There has to be a reason they're still there. Okay.

All right, here's my guess. Here's my guess. Mama gave us that. Mama gave us that location. Mama gave us the wrong date and the wrong location. But she pointed specifically to that reserve. If anything, like a computer or Gabby's clothing, anything that could have been destroyed could very well be in that reserve.

Joe Scott? I think it was a bum steer. Wait, wait, wait. What, Michael Griffith? I think it was a bum steer. Totally. But why are they still searching it? You have to ask them, Nancy.

What, Michael? Yeah, you have to ask them. I mean, how can the police justify this? Wait, did you actually just say you'd have to ask them? That is not helping me. That wasted 30 seconds of this program, Michael Griffith. Yes. What do you have to say for yourself?

Please forgive me. I promise I won't do it again. But at this point, unless he's eating alligators and lapping up putrid water, he's not in reserve. And regarding the burner phones, unless he's having conversations with his parents, there's no way that they can get him any kind of access to money or bank accounts or things like that, because the police would be on it right away. So I don't see the parents. I don't know. He managed to get out of the house.

Nancy, I've been hearing a lot about people showing up down there with cadaver dogs. There's been no proof of that. They do have access. The Pasco County Sheriff's Office does have access to cadaver dogs. And I think they actually have one in their kennel. But if they are looking for a body, working in a swamp, looking for a body is very difficult because, and I'm going to throw some knowledge at you, the makeup of this swamp is pure organic material. That's vegetable material, everything else. And one of the things that's created in this environment is something called tannic acid. And when bodies break down in a swamp, it goes quicker than any other place. They could be getting negative hits out there

relative if they're bringing dogs, because to be blunt with you, bodies in swamps turn to soup. So if he's been down for a protracted period of time, there ain't going to be much left other than things that are not organic. Psychologically speaking, as Michael Griffith said, why would you go out into a nature reserve to kill yourself with alligators? That contradicts everything that we know about method and assessment of homicide and suicide. Just no, I don't see him going out there to kill

himself. Dr. Angie, jump in. I don't see him going out there to kill himself either. Okay. That goes against, it really does go against everything else that he's showing. People that, people that are sociopaths or that have antisocial personality disorder, they say they might attempt suicide. They talk about it to get people's attention, but they don't do it. So Masa, do you have any idea why they're still there? Yes, no.

You know, I think the interesting thing was when we saw them last week and they had on all this tactical gear we were like oh my god what's happening like twitter was blowing up and then we don't say omg on cs with ng okay don't drag him into this okay go ahead um and they said that they were doing a training exercise so i've seen experts like analyze that in a different way. Yeah. So didn't they go out with cadaver dogs?

They did the day before they went out with cadaver dogs. One day they went out with a cadaver dog, at least one. But there was two different sheriff's offices with dogs on scene. Then the following day, we saw them in tactical gear. And then later in the day, North Fork Police said that they were just doing a training exercise. So I didn't know what to think about that. Like, are they being efficient with their time? Are they? Okay. Yeah. What? Why? I don't believe that. It's just like they brought out cadets to help look for Chandra Levy's body. Yes, it was a training exercise, but also they were looking for her body.

Okay, so I've got Michael Griffith, Dr. Angie, Cheryl McCollum. Any idea why they're at Carlton Reserve? Quickly, nutshell. I have no idea. Cheryl, that was for you. Well, I'm telling you, I believe because Mama pointed to the plate. But listen, I do think it was a red heron. I'm telling you, everything has been a lie.

But did they go back and forth there? Yes. Could it possibly be they were getting rid of evidence? Yes. Keep in mind, no one, not law enforcement, not the attorney, nobody has seen Brian in person since before September 11th. And to Lee Reber, Lee, electronically, what's our best bet in trying to catch a skype?

Well, let me throw that theory out too, why they might be in that area. I'm sure they were dumping cell sites, which means that they go to each cell tower and they'll actually dump the information and data which can identify. And so they're backtracking. They might've found the, you know, when the parents were going back and forth, their phone's registering.

So they might be doing and trying to do some location work. And how do you do the cell dump? So they'll identify the cell tower and then work with the cell carriers because multiple carriers can utilize it. You don't have to search Carleton Reserve, a swamp with dogs, to get the data done from a cell tower. Correct. They can do all of that and have the information. My point is they might be using that as a directional location, a last location.

Smart. Yeah. Okay, guys, I have all these papers of your questions and your notes that we can't get to quickly now, but I can tell you this much. It ain't over yet. And we are not stopping until we find Brian Laundrie and bring him to justice. I want him alive. I want Brian Laundrie in a court of law.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.