Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Marine Vet Chokehold: Hero or Felon?

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Former U.S. Marine Daniel Penny has been charged after the man he put in a chokehold died. Penny used the chokehold on homeless street performer Jordan Neely after the 30-year-old began acting erratic, throwing trash, and having repeated outbursts. Penny's attorney says several witnesses reported Neely making threats. Penny remained on the scene to talk with police and was not arrested. Since then, Penny has been charged with second-degree manslaughter and handcuffed.      Joining Nancy Grace Today: Duncan Levin- Former Federal Prosecutor, Managing partner at Levin & Associates, and Celebrity Defense Attorney; Twitter: @levinpllc  Dr. John Delatorre - Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology) and Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; Twitter, IG, and TikTok:  @drjohndelatorre   Wilbur Chapman- Former NYPD Deputy Commissioner & Former Commissioner of NYC Department of Transportation Dr. Bill Smock- Forensic medical specialist, Police surgeon for the Louisville Metro Police Department, Medical Director for the Training Institute on Strangulation Prevention, Testified in the George Floyd case Janon Fisher - New York Reporter/Editor; Twitter: @Janon_Fisher  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A so-called Good Samaritan seemingly risks his own life to save other people on a subway and now he is being prosecuted for homicide. What really happened on that subway? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation in Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at ABC 7. In this Citizen App video, police were told the man who died was harassing passengers and making threats.

That's when a 24-year-old man stepped in and attempted to subdue the man. A physical struggle ensued, leading to the older man losing consciousness. He was rushed to Lenox Hill Hospital, where he was later pronounced dead. The 24-year-old subway rider was questioned by detectives and released, pending additional investigation and an autopsy. One man loses his life and another man, seemingly a good Samaritan, faces many years behind bars. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first of all, let's go straight out to a New York reporter with the New York Daily News dot com. Janan Fisher. Janan, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me.

Janan, what's your understanding of what happened on that subway? So it was on May 1st. It was a Monday around 2.30 on the F train. Jordan Neely, who is a homeless man with a history of mental illness, got on the train at the 2nd Avenue stop. Rode at one stop. Well, hold on. Wait, wait, wait. Let me understand something.

Guys, with me from the New York Daily News, Janan Fisher. Janan, when you're saying 2nd Avenue, where on 2nd Avenue did he hop the subway? I'm sorry. Yeah, this is in Manhattan. This is downtown Manhattan in New York City. Your crossing would be 2nd what? It was 2nd Avenue and I guess Houston is where the subway stop is. Not too far at all from NYU, the Village. So potentially on this train would be, I guess, students in the middle of the workday, people going back and forth.

The city is so, so congested with traffic. Sometimes the only way to get back and forth and make it on time is a subway. I've often joked with my husband and my children, should we walk or do we have time to take a cab? In other words, the traffic is so bad, it's faster to just walk wherever you've got to go, even if it's sometimes a couple of miles to get there, because traffic is just totally stopped. So at that particular hop, how close is that? Let me think, Houston, what is around that hop right there? You know, let me see that. There's some restaurants, you know, a barbershop, hardware store. There's, I think, Katz's Deli isn't too far from there. You know, it's,

you know, there's some, you know, bars and restaurants. You know, it's a residential area. Well, I mean, when you say Katz's Deli, that says it all, because I would totally catch a subway to get to Katz's Deli. Having gone to NYU, I've been at that stop many, many times, getting from, let's see, at that time I was at Court TV and HLN, and no, just at Court TV at that point, and would take the subway all the way down to my law classes at NYU. So I'm trying to imagine who all was on the subway at that moment.

Okay, I'm getting a picture. Go ahead, dear. Right. So, yeah, it's hardly rush hour, but, you know, it's getting there and uh so mr neely who is a busker homeless man uh you know with mental health problems uh he uh he often impersonated michael jackson in 42nd street in the subway station for for loose change from tourists and commuters uh he gets on the subway stop at 2nd Avenue and according to witnesses, he becomes, you know, alarmed. He is starting to rant. He throws his Michael Jackson jacket down on the floor.

He says he's hungry, you know, that he's tired. He doesn't care anymore. He'll go to jail. Okay. Wait, wait, wait wait wait wait sorry janin yes ma'am you're just giving me so much information is again drinking from the fire hydrant too much too fast let me understand slow down you've got a guy with uh i think 44 priors on his criminal history and he takes off his jacket throws it down and says he's ready to die

that's according to witnesses yes okay go ahead then what happens so uh you know other uh you know according to uh daily news reporting you know the mta recorded that people believed that there was a guy with a knife on the train there was a guy with a gun on the train that there was a guy with a knife on the train, there was a guy with a gun on the train, that there was a danger. Wait, people are starting to call MTA, Metro Transit, what does it stand for, authority? Yeah, Metropolitan Transportation Authority. So people on the subway, trapped on the subway, you can't get off.

Right. Are calling, I guess, calling from the emergency phone that's there on the subway. I think they're letting the conductor know who's on the train with them that there's a danger on the train. Did any train personnel come help? No, they're trained to call the authorities,

not to intervene in those situations. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So people are afraid, and they're calling MTA, Metropolitan Transit Authority, asking for help. They think the guy has a knife or a gun. He says he doesn't care if he dies. He's sick of it. He's had it. And they, MTA, are trained not to intervene. Well, they're calling, they called the police

and they, you know, and the police, the, you know, the properly chained uh police would would intervene in that situation so you know the the distance between second avenue and uh broadway lafayette you know we're talking about you know 30 40 seconds 45 seconds maybe a minute to between train stops and now you know i've never seen 45 seconds between one stop and another stop pretty quick uh stop less than one minute between stops because in all my years of taking the new york subways i've never gotten from one stop to the next in 45 seconds that quickly has anybody on this panel got between one stop and another stop on a New York subway in less than a minute? Never. Never.

In my life. Never. Two minutes is probably the quickest. Wait, do you want to rethink that answer? I just love saying that when people are on the stand. Would you like a moment to rethink that answer, Jayden Fisher? 45 seconds between stops? I've not timed it know i it's a very

quick stop well i can guarantee you it's not 45 seconds between stops that's not happening and very quickly don't go anywhere janan i'm here believe it or not i agree with everything you've said except that 45 second thing hold on dr bill smock with me forensic medical specialist police surgeon for the louisville metro pd medical director for the training institute on strangulation prevention good gravy man do you ever sleep dr smock how long does it take to asphyxiate someone strangle hang smother how long does it take till you're dead? Well, there's a well-known progression. After you apply pressure to the carotid arteries, things begin to happen. You are unconscious in less than 10 seconds. And because the cells of

the brain have no oxygen reserve, they die every second they continue to go without oxygen. We know from videotapes that you will go unconscious in that less than 10 second period and stop breathing somewhere between one and two and a half minutes of pressure on the neck, blocking the carotid arteries. You know, Dr. Smock, that was brilliant the way you did that. Because you could have just said two minutes. But the way you led me up to it, I didn't even want to interrupt. Okay, two minutes. Two and a half minutes, max. Yeah, somewhere between one and two and a half minutes, you will stop breathing. you then.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Duncan Levin is joining me, former federal prosecutor, now managing partner at Levin and Associates. Duncan, thank you for being with us. Nice to be with you, Nancy. Duncan, do you have children? I do. How many? Three of them, little ones.

Boy, girl, what? Got two girls and a boy. And they're starting to ride the subway. So they're out there in New York. Ages? My youngest is seven, and then I have a 12- old and a 14 year old. What would you do if a guy clearly out of his mind takes off his jacket, throws it down, becomes erratic, you feel threatened, you've got your seven year old, your 12 year old and your 14 year old with

you. What would you do? Would you call MTA and hope that maybe they'd break their policy and come help? And that's the thing that everybody has to keep in mind here. Whoa, whoa, wait a minute, Duncan Levin. This is why you're such a good trial lawyer. Look here, not here. What would you do? I mean, because I'd tear him apart. I would go down swinging.

Bam. If anybody got close to John David or Lucy, it's over. Well, I think that that's right. But the question is that we weren't there. And so that is what these charges are going to be about and what this case is about, is whether that was the right decision to make in the time. Only he knows. He was there, and there were witnesses there.

Okay. I can see where you're going with this, Duncan Levin. And that's why you win so many cases. Did you notice he did not answer? Just for the record, did not answer. So, Janan Fisher, back to you, you poor thing. I'm back on you now. Janan, what do the witnesses, not the Marine, Daniel Penny, what do the other witnesses say happened?

Well, you know, the accounts vary, obviously. You know, like I said, some people said he had a knife. Some people said he had a gun. That's what the MTA recorded. Oh, I'm so glad they sat behind their desks and recorded it all and did nothing but that said go ahead right so there was a freelance journalist there that recorded the aftermath and his account that he posted on facebook was that he didn't feel like that this man was a true danger so accounts vary but there's definitely a a you know uh indications that people were alarmed by Jordan Neely's behavior on that train.

That there was a, you know, police sources said that he was throwing garbage, you know, and that he was ranting. You know, there there's no report that he attacked anyone. You know, that has not come out that, you know, that anyone was confronted by him. Got another question for you. I'm looking at the video. I take it that's the one from Juan Alberto Vasquez. That's correct. I've been looking at that and I see someone.

Of course, I see Daniel Penny and he has Jordan Neely in a chokehold and I see another male wearing a black jacket with a white long sleeve shirt and a black band on one of his ring his left ring finger suggesting he may be also holding down Jordan Neely. He's not trying to pull Penny off Neely. He's trying to pull Neely's hands back. Who's that? I mean, we have not identified the other participants in the incident. Because I find that significant. It's not as if other subway riders are trying to pull Penny off. In fact, they're trying to hold Jordan Neely's arms down so he can't hit Penny.

Has anybody noticed that? I mean, joining me is Wilbur Chapman, former NYPD Deputy Commissioner and former Commissioner of the NYC Department of Transportation. Commissioner, thank you for being with us. Have you noticed that this other guy, oh, okay, now I can see him in full, is actually helping hold Neely back. And I see a guy standing over them in jeans and an army jacket, it looks like, or maybe a leather jacket and a backpack nobody is seemingly asking or saying stop stop stop you can't breathe what's how what do you see when you look at this

video deputy chapman it's interesting that you have three individuals subduing one and two of them uh clearly uh were not detained or questioned by the police to find out exactly what their perspective on the incident was. You could deduce from that that Mr. Neely was putting up quite a bit of resistance or was in the process of threatening, although we don't have any information that says he physically attacked anyone, which would justify the use of the physical force against him. Guys, let's hear more from our friends at PIX11. The suspect's lawyers told us in a statement, quote, when Mr. Penny, a decorated Marine veteran, stepped in to protect himself and fellow New Yorkers, his well-being was not assured.

He risked his own life and safety for the good of his fellow passengers. The unfortunate result was the unintended and unforeseen death of Mr. Neely. We're confident once the facts are out, Mr. Penny will be fully absolved of any wrongdoing. We know that chokehold went on for two minutes and five seconds, which is exactly what Dr. Bill Smott was describing. Now, we've just heard about Daniel Penney's background. I understand he's a decorated Marine veteran. Jamin Fisher, why was he decorated? Well, you know, he had done one tour in the Marine Corps. He was overseas, and he did a tour, you know, you know, right in the Marines. I think it was for,

let me see, National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism, and he got the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. I thought he was deployed twice, but I'll find that out right now. Okay, that's what we know about him, Jane and Fisher. What do we know about the deceased? Jordan Neely taking a listen to Anthony DeLorenzo. Neely, who was homeless and suffering from mental illness, was allegedly agitating fellow riders on May 1st. That's when Penny took him to the floor for as long as 15 minutes. 30-year-old's death was caught on camera, raising an uproar from the mayor to some police and community activists. Though one criminal defense attorney thinks the DA was forced to cave to political pressure. This is a political hot potato.

There are people on both sides of this that are upset about what's going on here. And the obvious solution here was to present it to a grand jury present all of it every witness every possible charge including justification invite mr penny to testify and instead they've just charged him which you know at this point alvin bragg owns this let me understand then what happened to Jaden Fisher. Did this go to a grand jury? Not yet. It has not gone to a grand jury yet. Haven't charges come down?

Yes, they've arrested him on charges. That's correct. Okay, guys, take a listen to Derek Waller. Police say the man who was killed actually had 44 prior arrests and in fact was potentially harassing people at the time of his death. And we can show you this map. It happened Monday afternoon here at the Broadway Lafayette subway station with service for the BDF and M train. Neely was a subway performer.

He also had a history of mental illness. According to witnesses, the day of his death, Neely was acting erratically and harassing passengers when police got the initial 911 call. Video shows a 24-year-old Marine veteran holding Neely in a chokehold while other subway riders restrained him before he died. Police did question the Marine seen in the video and released him without charges. So when police questioned Penny, they decided to release him without charges. So what more do we know about Daniel Penny? What can we uncover? Take a listen to our friends at CrimeOnline.com.

Daniel Penny grew up in a middle-class family as the only boy in a family of girls. Penny and his three sisters grew up in a three-bedroom house in West Islip on Long Island. Childhood friends say the Penny household had an open-door policy welcoming all. The boys played basketball and hung out at the mall. Penny was a star lacrosse player at West Islip High School. In 2015, he earned an MVP award during the annual Dan Daly Cup competition. Right after graduation, Penny joined the Marines. He served for four years, deployed twice, and rose to the rank of sergeant. Penny was honorably discharged in 2021. You know one thing I don't

want to hear to Dr. John Delatore, licensed psychologist and mediator specializing in forensic psychology and you can find him at dr john delatory dr delatory what i don't want to hear in an investigation a criminal investigation are the two words political hot potato i guess that's three words because that has nothing to do with the evidence does it no it's not supposed to and And I think that's the crux of the issue is that it appears as though there is a lot of politics being played on the ancillary aspect of these things, whether it's mental illness or veteran issues, whether it's safety, all of these things are forcing our law enforcement officials to engage in necessary sort of face covering sort of necessary cya because of the political pressures that are being forced upon them our justice system is not

supposed to be influenced by politics but it very often is you know it's very disturbing to me duncan levin uh duncan former federal prosecutor and managing partner, Levin & Associates, is that for some reason, the district attorney, Bragg, skipped the grand jury. Yeah, it's something that doesn't happen in every single case. But in this particular case, it's really on the line. And I think he wants to get more evidence before figuring out definitively how to go on this and what the ultimate charges are. Right now... I think we need to explain why that's so unusual.

You say it's rare. I never prosecuted a single case ever in two years as a Fed and 10 years as a felony prosecutor in Superior Court. Never, ever prosecuted a case that a grand jury had not handed down a true bill. I didn't just go, hey, Jackie, I think you committed a crime. I'm just going to get my pen and paper and I'm drawing up an indictment and then I'm going to prosecute you. That never happened. And I'm curious why the district attorney chose not to take this to a group in a grand jury for them to decide if there should be a formal charge. Does that bother anybody other than me?

I mean, regardless of what a grand jury would have done, indict or no indict, why skip a procedural step in prosecuting this guy? So it's unusual, but it's not unheard of. There are cases that proceed this way. Like what? Well, there are cases where they start prosecuting it in the New York City criminal court and let it pen there. I was frank. Not enough grand jury space for everything. That's not the case with this case.

This is a high profile case. I mean, can you name one case, Duncan? You say that it happened. When did it happen? It happens in more routine cases regularly because people are arrested on felony complaints. It's not enough time to get grand jury time to have everything indicted. On a homicide case? Have you seen it happen on a homicide case? I think it happens on probably a majority of homicide cases in New York City. Can you name one? Well, I'm not in criminal court every day, but I bet if you sat there enough of the day, you'd see homicide cases come through that have not been indicted. Usually cases are indicted before there's an arrest and then they arrest them. Or if there's an arrest, they're indicted at some point after the arrest so it's not it's not usual in new york city criminal court to have a case proceed in your

expertise as a former federal prosecutor did you prosecute cases without a grand jury indictment i was a new york state prosecutor at the manhattan da's office for many years as well and i arranged tons of murder cases that came through that had not been indicted yet. So that is not that unusual per se. Can you remember any particular one, like a name? No. I'm just thinking through why in a homicide case and a homicide case that has garnered this much attention, just to top it off, did the elected DA choose not to use a grand jury? I find that very, very disturbing. But that said,

now we find out more about the case. It all seemingly hinges on what the medical examiner says. Take a listen to our friends at ABC7. Key here now is the ME's report. Former NYPD chief of detectives Robert Boyce says the 24-year-old man who subdued him may have indeed been defending himself and others, but there are other factors. How long was the actual hold? Was the neck compression? That's going to be. Was he screaming, let me go, let me go? All these things will go into that determination. A determination of whether or not he made the right call, which ended up costing someone's life. The safest thing to do is call 911 if you can down there or find an officer nearby. However, save those two instances

if there's an immediate need to help someone, you do it. I mean, that's heroic, but that's really scary on the same part. Like, you cannot just jump in and be a Good Samaritan because Good Samaritans often wind up being hurt themselves. Okay, I'm just trying to take in what I'm hearing. Did he actually say the safest thing to do is call 911 to Wilbur Chapman? Is he serious? You're on the subway.

You feel threatened. You call 911? 911 can't get there. The transit authority is not going to do anything. That's their procedure. They is not going to do anything that's their procedure they're not going to help so why did he even say call 9-1-1 that's that's a question for retired chief boys i i don't quite understand that if there's if there's imminent need to prevent someone from being harmed and you're taking that appropriate action, of course, there's going to be consequences for it,

as there are in this particular case. But certainly, the protection of life is a lot greater than the need to call 911. There are certain problems with communications underground, with police deployment, and the amount of time it takes for someone to rescue you. You've been talking about people's family members. If my family members were in danger, I would certainly take action and then worry about what the consequences are later.

This is probably what's happened in this case. It's a perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances. Mr. Neely should not have been out in the subway. The system fails him. And now Mr. Penny takes action. And as a. Penny takes action. And as a result of that, there's an unfortunate death for which he must be charged. So really, there's no winners in this. And certainly the calling 911 might have exacerbated the situation. And you might have had more loss of life. Or possibly the people who felt that they were in danger might have actually been in danger.

You know, to Jane and Fisher joining us from NewYorkDailyNews.com, I noticed that the Wall Street Journal referred to Neely as a, quote, obviously deranged man. Let me get their exact wording. When Daniel Penney stepped forward on a New York subway to protect his fellow commuters from an obviously deranged man the former marine sergeant could not have imagined two weeks later he would be perked walked in handcuffs outside the fifth precinct why are they saying he's an obviously deranged man jordan ely had a history of mental

illness he was schizophrenic his dad said that he had uh autism You know, he had led a rather tragic life. His mother was strangled to death by her boyfriend in 2007 when Jordan was, I think, 14 years old. The boyfriend put his mother in a suitcase and left her on the Henry Hudson Parkway and continued to live with Jordan. Jordan testified against the boyfriend in the trial, you know, the criminal trial. I'm saying why is he now obviously deranged, according to The Wall Street Journal? What was he doing that made him look obviously deranged? Or was he? Well, on the subway, it appears witnesses have said that he, you know, that he was threatening, that he was throwing garbage, that he was erratic, unruly, that, you know, that he,

people felt, reported they felt threatened, they felt scared. A woman motioned to her waistband and said that he had a gun. These were reports that the MTA received about what was going on in the subway car. I wonder, to Dr. John Delatore, psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, if there is a mindset that people are already afraid. They're already afraid of crime. They're afraid of what's going to happen to their families, to their children, to themselves. I mean, who's going to raise their children if they get killed on the subway? So they're in a climate of fear to start with. And then when neely behaves erratically they feel in danger i mean maybe somewhere somewhere else citizens wouldn't be it wouldn't live in the climate of

fear they wouldn't be afraid they're gonna die but trapped in a subway car dozens of feet below the surface there's nobody to call. And if you did, they wouldn't come anyway. I do not find that unreasonable, Nancy. I 100% agree with everything that you're saying. Society right now is feeding on fear and commoditizing anger. And so that when someone is acting out of their mind, right? And I have no idea what deranged means.

I mean, I know technically it means mentally unsound, but I have no idea what the Wall Street Journal is trying to imply by saying what is going on with Jordan Neely. Homelessness, probably drug use, untreated mental illness. These are all things that people just aren't used to seeing. And because of that, they otherize and they

stigmatize that individual as being dangerous when the reality is they're simply asking for help. I don't know. Was he dangerous? Because in my mind, it's not what the medical examiner says that's going to turn this case. It's was Neely a threat? Did the people sitting around him feel threatened? And that is why I brought up these other two guys. They weren't trying to drag Daniel Penny off Neely. They were trying to help Penny subdue Neely. And that tells me a lot. It's not just Penny taking action against Neely.

Does that make it right? I don't know. Does it make it wrong? I would have to find out exactly what Neely. Does that make it right? I don't know. Does it make it wrong? I would have to find out exactly what Neely was doing. Did he pose a threat? Well, take a listen to Penny's lawyer speaking with our friends at The Five in Hourcut 23. Well, the mindset is pretty simple. He was fearful for the safety of those passengers.

So when he acted his mindset was to keep his fellow pastors safe from attack nearly entering the train and acting in a very violent manner both physically and with words he would say things to the effect that you know I need certain things I need food I mean this or that and if I don't get it I don't care if I go to prison for the rest of my life. And the passengers actually have said that they interpreted that mean, well, when would you go to prison for the rest of your life if you kill somebody? So everybody got the message. There was a period of time where the situation kind of developed. So, you know, a period of time to be able to observe Mr. Neely, you know, swinging his arms at passengers, throwing his jacket down, making threats.

OK, when does that rise to a level of threatening? crime stories with nancy grace to duncan levin joining us what about it duncan yeah i think it i think he's got a very good case that rises to the level and that is why i think the DA is taking its time and figuring out exactly how best to put this case together. Because the law itself in New York says that killing in self-defense is legally permitted when an attacker poses an imminent threat of physical harm or death. And so I think that there is enough there that he has a defense to this. Because he'll say, there was nowhere else I could go. There was nowhere to retreat. I was in a subway car. And look, it wasn't just me. It was other people joining in, too.

Everyone there thought there was an imminent threat that he was going to kill us all. So that that is the case and that is his defense. And so, you know, it's going to require eyewitness testimony and there believe me they're going to have everyone in that car testifying one way or the other about whether there was a threat of harm back to janet fisher joining us investigative reporter with the new york daily news janet again thank you for being with us what are the other passengers saying uh you know the other passengers uh you know it said that he had a gun, he had a knife. They said he was acting erratically. They said he was throwing garbage. You know, one of the

passengers said that he had thrown his Michael Jackson jacket on the ground. You know, he, you know, he said that, you know, he was hungry, he needed food, that he was ready to die. And that is all that we really understand about what he said on the train and what he did. That, so far, is not rising, in my mind, so far is not rising to a level of a dangerous threat. But on the other hand, guys, we're not on the subway. We don't know if he was menacing toward women or moms or children. We have no idea what happened. And I do know, isn't this correct to you, Jamin Fisher, that one of the passengers actually stepped forward and thanked Penny? There are some reports that a woman that was on the train had wanted to thank him uh for his action that that uh i not confirmed that myself but i had read that report we do know

that police for some reason are not giving the substantiation that is that will be required in this case, the details leading up to the chokehold. I'm curious what you make of that, Wilbur Chapman, former commissioner, former deputy commissioner, that people on the train actually thanked Neely. Well, that's a distinct possibility because the level of crime on the subway has certainly risen. And with that, you would have the the rising fear of passengers who are on the subway and a concern about the fact that there are large numbers of homeless and mentally unstable people who use the subways because they don't use this the shelter as far as the police statement is concerned uh it's incumbent upon all responding police to take in-depth statements to be submitted

as part of the investigation uh to determine uh is there culpability on the part of mr penny or exactly more more importantly exactly what happened what were the circumstances there were reports of knives and guns were any found and what made those individuals who thought there were there were weapons involved or that that mr neely had weapons uh what made those individuals who thought there were weapons involved or that Mr. Neely had weapons, what made them think that? And does that lead to a factual accounting of what they observed or just an emotional reaction because of the fear that's caused by the environment being trapped in the subway train with someone who you know is unpredictable or you assume is unpredictable in their behavior. That's really important, the fact that you just said unpredictable, unstable, because

when someone begins to act erratically, you fear the worst, especially when you're protecting your children. You don't know what they're going to do next. And that fear factor, the reality that it is unpredictable and the person is unstable, they can do anything. I'm still hung up on the fact that two other men helped subdue Neely. They weren't trying to drag Penny off. For instance, we see in other cases where the crowd is saying, stop, he's choking, he can't

breathe, get off him. In this case, people are actually thanking Neely and helping him. So, helping Penny. I'm trying to sort out the facts and we're not getting them. And that's further clouded by the fact that there was no grand jury proceeding the prosecutor skipped what many people including myself consider to be a very important part of justice take a listen to our cut 24 our friends at the five well we were told that there was going to be a grand jury presentation and then that would take some time and it was going to be a very kind of a deliberate process it was not going to be rushed then suddenly we got a call one night before Danny was asked to surrender and said he's he's got a he's got a surrender to the police department tomorrow so at

that point where what do you mean tomorrow this was going to be a long process suddenly it's tomorrow so This was going to be a long process. Suddenly it's tomorrow. So everything was rushed. No grand jury proceeding. It was a hastily drawn indictment. That said, there are formal charges and it unfolds from there. Take us to our friends in our Cut 13 CBS 2. Just as expected, Daniel Penny turning himself in to police here at the 5th Precinct.

Now he was charged with a second degree manslaughter charge. District Attorney Alvin Bragg announcing that yesterday. Now take a look this is video of Penny walking inside of the precinct. He went in he came back out headed to the Manhattan Criminal Court where bail will be decided if it will be a set or not. Now his attorney says Penny turning himself in voluntarily. An attorney for Daniel Penny, the man charged with second-degree manslaughter in the subway death of Jordan Neely, maintained his client's innocence after he turned himself in at the NYPD's 5th Precinct Friday morning. He's dealing with a situation, like I said, with a sort of integrity and honor

that is characteristic of who he is characteristic of his honorable service in the united states marine corps and you know he has that all the 24 year old long island veteran walked out in handcuffs just over two hours later and was arraigned at the manhattan criminal courthouse he was released on one hundred thousand dollars bail. What is the truth? Even amongst us experts here, we can't come to a consensus because we don't know the facts. But I can tell you this, self-defense, if proven at trial, is a complete defense, as is defense of a third party. Defense of another. We wait as justice unfolds.

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