Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MESSAGE TO BONDI: RELEASE THE EPSTEIN FILES! You promised, NOW DELIVER!

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight. Message to Bondi. Pam Bondi, the U.S. Attorney General, release the files. The Jeffrey Epstein files, in case you need clarification, Bondi, you promised.

Starting point is 00:00:27 Now, deliver. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I wanna thank you for being with us. Joining me now, an All-Star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight, Dylan Howard is with us, investigative journalist and author of Epstein, Dead Man Tell No Tales, but first, I'd like you to listen to this. What you're gonna see hopefully tomorrow

Starting point is 00:00:50 is a lot of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information, but it's pretty sick what that man did. A source had told me where the documents were being kept. Southern District of New York, shock. So we got them all by hopefully all of them. Friday at 8 a.m., thousands of pages of documents. I have the FBI going through them. Director Patel is going to get us a detailed report as to why the FBI withheld all of those documents.

Starting point is 00:01:21 Now from our friends at Fox 25, Dylan Howard, that was Pam Bondi, the US Attorney General, promising, and I've got so many clips of her promising out the yin-yang, promising the release of the Epstein files, and at that point, blaming the holdup on the Southern District of New York, which I accepted. I accepted that at the time. I had no reason to disbelieve her or to believe an nefarious intent on anyone's mind, anyone, including the Southern District. But now, really? She just referred to thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of files and now we're being told there's nothing in there so we're

Starting point is 00:02:04 not releasing them. If there's nothing in there. So we're not releasing them. If there's nothing in there, why not release them, Mr. Howard? Well, this is a cover up of epic proportions and not just because of the National Discord over the last week. That is President Donald Trump's alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein's alleged. No, we've known that for decades and we've known that they had a friendship leading up to Epstein's 2005 investigation in Florida. Now, Trump obviously campaigned on a desire for transparency.

Starting point is 00:02:34 This is the antithesis of it. The reality was that what was released in that so-called phase one of Epstein files being dumped on the American public was nothing new. What we know is that there are tens of thousands of documents related to Epstein that the Southern District of New York, a division of the Department of Justice and the FBI are refusing to release. How do we know that? Because one of the news outlets that I own, Radar Online, first sued in 2017.

Starting point is 00:03:12 The FBI threw a full and frank disclosure of these documents related to that 2005 case in Florida. At the time, Nancy, we were stonewalled. Believe it or not, the Southern District of New York invoked Jeffrey Epstein's privacy rights over those of the dozens of victims at the center of that case in Florida. Then Epstein dies. Was it suicide or was it murder? Still, the Southern District of New York wouldn't release the files.

Starting point is 00:03:47 Fast forward to last year, and a US judge in the Southern District hands down a verdict against the news outlet Radar Online. The news, the verdict there was that the information contained in those files could jeopardize any potential appeal of Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. Well, that is now under appeal and what is evident in now recently filed appeal is that there are more than 11,000 documents that have not been released

Starting point is 00:04:18 to the public around this child sex trafficking ring and one must ask themselves at this hour, is the rights of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell being protected over those of what the DOJ has now said are more than 1,000 victims of the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking ring? I'm very curious as to why the documents are not being disclosed. Now, Dylan Howard, you suggest a nefarious relationship between Trump and Epstein. Many celebrities take photos that later they wish they hadn't taken.

Starting point is 00:05:02 Photos alone do not indicate wrongdoing on behalf of Trump. But I will tell you what is a smoking gun to me. We were told the documents would be released. Now we're being told there's nothing to see. If there's nothing to see, why not release them? Who, if anyone, is being... No, Nancy, I'm not... Go ahead, please. No, Nancy, I'm not suggesting a nefarious link between Trump and Epstein. What I'm saying is that there has been a search for a nefarious link between Trump and Epstein. But I think that it obscures somewhat the real crux of the matter here. And that is that there is significant intelligence

Starting point is 00:05:47 in the hands of the Department of Justice and the FBI that has not been released to the American people. And we know that through various motions that have been put forward in various civil cases in which the SDNY, the Southern District of New York, has argued that the release of those Epstein files could quote, reasonably be expected to interfere with a potential appeal of Epstein's so-called accomplice,

Starting point is 00:06:16 Ghislaine Mackler. I've never seen prosecutors so worried about the interests of a convicted felon, i.e. Ghislaine Maxwell. And this goes back to before Bondi, the promise that these documents would be released and that any co-conspirator would be prosecuted goes all the way back to Attorney General William Barr. This case will continue on against anyone who was complicit with Epstein. Any co-conspirators should not

Starting point is 00:06:47 rest easy. Yeah, hmm, that's my friends at CBS and apparently all of the alleged co-conspirators are in fact resting easy tonight because apparently the files are not going to be released. I've never seen anything like it in all my years of investigating and prosecuting. Let's just remind everyone what this case is about. Listen to Virginia Giffrey, one of the five individuals who allegedly committed suicide connected to the Epstein case. They said, take off your clothes. I had these little girl undies on,

Starting point is 00:07:27 like little hearts on them, I remember, and they were laughing at that because they liked that. The younger you look, the better it is. It turned very sexual and it was abuse straight away from both of them. I had been a runaway and I had been abused before. So to have this ability to get educated and do something with my life, I thought I was turning around.

Starting point is 00:07:51 That's from our friends at Miami Herald and ITV News and Lifetime. Dylan Howard, that's what this case is all about. The trafficking and exploitation of what we now believe to be thousands of little girls. Now why on God's green earth would we not want to release files about the desecration and the victimization of little girls? Entirely correct Nancy. At the very heart of this lies a very deep and disturbing question. If Jeffrey Epstein was operating a child's sex ring, was he doing it for his own sexual proclivities or was he doing it for a perhaps far more nefarious cause? And I think the answer lies there. As you pointed out, there are dozens of individuals whom

Starting point is 00:08:39 have been linked to Jeffrey Epstein, but their names never been revealed as part of this so-called client list. Now, something else that Virginia Dufres said, of course, she committed suicide earlier this year, was left in a diary that she wrote. And she said that she used to be filmed by Epstein's hidden cameras. And what we've learned is that Epstein's various properties dotted throughout the United States and his so-called orgy island had cameras in every room.

Starting point is 00:09:14 They fed back into a central computer room where a classic blackmail and honey trap operation was being run. that according to various sources whom I've spoken to over the course of the last decade and I'm guessing your point is that those videos exist and they have not been released and speaking of video now rearing its ugly head is the accusation that the jail video has been edited from the night of Epstein's death. His own brother refuses to call it a suicide. Listen to this. Challenging AG Bondi's claim of one minute of Epstein prison video is missing due to a daily reset.

Starting point is 00:10:02 Wired reports the video was cut together in Adobe Premiere Pro from two video files. If true, this contradicts the Justice Department claim the footage was raw. Metadata from the raw Epstein prison video shows approximately 2 minutes and 53 seconds were removed from one of two stitched together clips, and the cut starts right at the missing minute. Jeffrey Epstein. Is it true, sir, that you have what's been described as an egg-shaped?

Starting point is 00:10:39 F***. Form, vague, and definite, and I'm going to give you the first warning, Mr. Pugin, that these types of questions are not only argumentative, but directed in a manner to embarrass Mr. Epstein. If you continue with this type of question, I will adjourn the deposition immediately. Sir, according to the police department's probable cause affidavit. One witness described your is oval shaped and claim when it was thick towards the bottom

Starting point is 00:11:10 but was thin and small towards the head portion and called it egg shaped. Those are not my words, I apologize. Jeffrey Epstein's deposition that we got our mitts on now, who in the world would have seen his penis and be able to describe it in such elaborate detail? It's referred to in police documents as a witness, which of course that witness is a victim. Who else would be speaking to police to describe Epstein's genitalia?

Starting point is 00:11:45 That would be one document in the many, many thousands of documents that we are being denied. Now, if there's nothing in the files, why aren't they being released? Bondi promised they would be released, yet now an abrupt about face. Much of the suspicion of the government at this juncture has to relate to videos. Videos specifically taken in the homes of Epstein around the world. flight logs where he would apparently ferry celebrities, millionaires and more back and forth to his so-called Lolita Island where underage girls perform sex acts. But in my mind, I'm concerned more so about the video from behind jailhouse walls the night Epstein died. Now keep in mind there are five suicides connected to the Epstein investigation.

Starting point is 00:12:58 Who are they? Number one obviously Epstein. Number two, his French counterpart, the French Epstein, who was accused and behind bars on supplying underage girls. Who else? Virginia Jafray and two other Epstein victims, all who could have testified. So there's a spate of suicides connected to the Epstein case. Like in Russia, whenever someone speaks out, they end up jumping off of a balcony or they're seriously poisoned. And we talk about Russia. There are five suicides connected to the Epstein case. How much more does the government expect us to believe? And I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I've been on the side

Starting point is 00:13:56 of law enforcement since the murder of my fiance decades ago. But this is clearly wrong. Let's talk about that jailhouse video. Listen. In a deep dive into the metadata embedded in the video presented to the American people as, quote, raw, Wired published analysis indicating the file was assembled from at least two different source clips saved multiple times over a period of more than three hours on May 23rd, 2025. The file was then created at 4.48 p.m. and last modified at 8.16 p.m. the same day and uploaded to the Justice Department's website where the edited clip is presented as raw footage.

Starting point is 00:14:36 Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter who has pored through countless documents and interviews. Dave Mack, we first heard that there was a glitch in the video recording system where Epstein was housed behind bars. There were a lot of glitches that night weren't there, Dave Mack. Two guards on duty in view of Epstein. He could see them and they could see him. They didn't have to watch the surveillance video. Both of them either fell asleep or went online shopping at the time he committed suicide. But it's not just one minute.

Starting point is 00:15:18 There's not just one minute missing from the jailhouse video. Is there Dave Mac? Correct. Nancy, that one minute that Attorney General Bondi has been popping about the reset of the video at 1158.58, saying that was because it was a 1999 system. Well, that might be explainable if that was the only problem here, but in total, two minutes and 53 seconds of video appears to have been manipulated and is missing. They're able to go in and look at these computer programs and how they're used. They can tell when you make a cut in the video and when you join two

Starting point is 00:16:02 separate pieces together. They can look and see from your keyboard strokes everything that's been done to the point where they're able to see how this piece of video was cut, how it was then saved, another piece is cut and saved, and then the two pieces are brought together. The problem is when you do all that and then present it as supposed raw footage. And it was absolutely titled raw footage. Raw footage, which means unedited. But you could see the jumps, as we call them in this business, the jumps where video is

Starting point is 00:16:36 spliced together. I mean, I'm not even an expert in that. I just know a little bit about it, but I happen to have an expert with me right now. Todd Shipley is joining us, digital cyber crime expert, former detective sergeant with Reno Police, 25 years in LA law enforcement, and author surviving cyber attack, securing social media and protecting your home, author of investigating internet crimes. It goes on and on and on. His expertise is this. Help me out Shipley. Well I think like everybody's already said these are not the law videos. I've looked at the both of the videos that they provided

Starting point is 00:17:14 for download and neither video is the original video. They both have been edited. Now does that mean it's not the real video? No, but they compiled both of the videos that they allowed for release and edited them using commercial tools. So, it's clear that the United States government did not provide us with the raw video that they promised. The disturbing aspect is that number one the video has been edited of that night that's the most disturbing aspect but number two that it was released to us titled raw video. A lot of excuses have been made about the

Starting point is 00:17:58 glitch but we are now detecting between two and three minutes missing from the jailhouse video. Now if you look at that video, you see that only visible is the elevator and stairwell leading on to that particular cell block. Dr. Dwayne Hendricks joining me, former associate warden at MDC, former senior warden, US Department of Justice. It goes on and on and on. Author, who are you? See it, say it, sees it. Dr. Hendricks, where's the video? I see the video of the elevator and the stairwell. That would indicate anyone coming in or off the cell block. But what about the people already on the cell block?

Starting point is 00:18:52 The inmate neighbors and others on the cell block. Where's the video? Well, they should have various angles in a special housing unit to show pretty much all the doors within that unit. Each institution is mandated to record at least 15 days prior anything that goes on in that unit. So when the investigators showed up the after action team, they should have been able to see all the footage from the prior 15 days on that special housing unit. Now in terms of the breaks, I hear you talking about the 15 days prior to Epstein's death. I'm talking about that night,

Starting point is 00:19:36 that's all I want. All I'm seeing is a door in an elevator. What about the other inmates, Hendrix? Where's the video? You alluded to other angles. They should have been recording. And the staff and facilities, those communication technicians, if there were any issues with those cameras, they should have been aware of that.

Starting point is 00:19:59 Now, when the after action team came, I think the after action team came within a few days after Mr. Epstein's death, that would have been something that would have been talked about immediately and right away. So I would beg to think in an after action report from the incident of his death or his apparent suicide, that would have been something that would have been definitely a major part of that investigation. So that's where that information will come from.

Starting point is 00:20:29 Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me now is Joseph Scott Morgan. He is professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and he is the star of a hit podcast, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott, thank you for being with us. Don't you find it a tiny bit of coincidence that, according to experts I've put on the stand, it takes a human between two and three minutes to die of asphyxiation or less, or less than two to three minutes. And the glitch in the video is about three minutes. Doesn't that bother you? Of course it does. And I've worked deaths in jails over the course of my career in Atlanta and New Orleans. And one of the things that we talk about when we are

Starting point is 00:21:26 investigating deaths within correctional facilities is who observed them? When was the last time they were seen? What are the points of observation relative to this? Because this is what it breaks down to is that the government at this point in time is the caretaker of these individuals. They have assumed that role and they did not have eyes on this individual during this period of time. There has to be door-to-door accountability for every second. And from a death investigation perspective, this should be a no-brainer. This should be something that is so easy to walk through. But as it turns out, Nancy, that arguably this is one of the most controversial

Starting point is 00:22:08 death investigations of this current century that we're in right now. And it should be something that's very, very simple. Information has not been released about the inmates and cells adjacent to Epstein in the days leading up to his death. There were 12 to 14 inmates near Epstein, but no information about who the inmates were, when the inmates were placed in the cells near Epstein, how long the individuals had been in jail, when were they moved, and where did they go? Mark Epstein says one of the inmates had been in the cell area for a time prior to Epstein's arrest and subsequent

Starting point is 00:22:39 detainment and another died after Epstein's death. No information is available about the other 10 to 12 inmates in the area when Epstein's death. No information is available about the other 10 to 12 inmates in the area when Epstein died. U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi insisting there's nothing to see here, there's no client lists, we're now not releasing the files. Okay, Bondi, you want to tell me that this name wasn't in the files?

Starting point is 00:23:02 Listen. I don't believe it's a picture of me in London because when I go out in London, I wear a suit and a tie. That's me, but whether that's my hand or whether that's the position, I have simply no recollection. The photograph is taken upstairs

Starting point is 00:23:21 and I don't think I ever went upstairs in Ghulain's house. He couldn't even spit it out. Sweating profusely, shifting his chair. He's lying. You want to tell me that the name and the number of Prince Andrew of Wales, that one, is not in those files? I would bet everything I have that his name is in those files. And if his name is in the files, who else is in the files? The files we're not seeing because Bondi lied? That was from our friends over at BBC News, and there's more.

Starting point is 00:24:02 Watch this train wreck. And I've said consistently and frequently that we never had any sort of sexual contact, whatever. Joining me now, a veteran trial attorney, a former felony prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Darryl Cohen. Darryl Cohen, if you or I had withheld information in a case, a felony case, we would be disbarred. We would be censured, Darryl Cohen. Of course, you know, in every case the defense argues, oh we didn't get this, oh we didn't get that. This is on a biblical scale, Cohen. Nancy, first of all, my philosophy of life and trial strategy is if you have nothing to hide,

Starting point is 00:24:54 then hide nothing. So the question becomes, why is it being hidden? In terms of the victims, I understand withholding their names. As you have pointed out on the show and many people have pointed out, there have been five homicides, five self-deaths. People have committed suicide. If these victims come out, if her name, whoever she may be, she may find that her life is not only ruined from before, but ruined for the rest of her life. So I understand that. But there is a way of explaining that, not hiding all of the evidence, not suddenly two different videos, minus a minute, minus two minutes. It makes no sense. And so if you want people to have

Starting point is 00:25:46 conspiracy theories, hide it, continue to hide it, and the theories will expand, expand, and expand. So what we need to have is transparency. I've heard the word, but the word has to be followed. Let the public know as much as you can. And if you don't let the public know why this person is not named, then you've got a problem. But let them know these were young girls. These were girls whose lives have forever been changed. And if their name comes out, it may be even worse.

Starting point is 00:26:23 In addition to alleged client lists, and again, it may not be a proverbial little black book. It could be names, phone calls, memos, emails, travel logs, video surveillance at Epstein's various homes and getaways to reveal or create a so-called client list. I don't expect the feds to open up a file and go, oh here's 300 names. This must be the client list. It's not that easy. That's why we've got about 11,000 documents that need to be released. They're not. There's so many disturbing facts about this. Not only the fact that many people, including

Starting point is 00:27:05 Epstein's own brother, who does not have a pecuniary or money interest in the outcome, insist that this was not a suicide of Epstein. But there are five, five suicides in all. Straight back out to Dylan Howard joining us, investigative journalist. He is the author of Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales. Dylan, again, I want to thank you for being with us. You have researched this so, so heavily. Five dead bodies and they all, what a coinkydink, commit suicide before they can testify. Wow.

Starting point is 00:27:44 Indeed. Now. please. Earlier this year we saw the death of Virginia Jufrey who is perhaps the most notable of Jeffrey Epstein's victims by virtue of the fact that she alleged Prince Andrew was one who raped her but significantly there was another death in custody this time on the other side of the Atlantic, in Paris, a gentleman by the name of Jean-Luc Brunel, who was also accused of similar heinous crimes like Jeffrey Epstein. Now, here's the rub that makes this particularly interesting. Jean-Luc Brunel was the co-founder and CEO of a number of modeling agencies. Modeling agencies, of course, are known for their use of young women

Starting point is 00:28:30 and underage women for major campaigns. Now, Brunel was found dead by suicide inside his Parisian jail. But this also opened up an entire other can of worms. And last week, in the US Senate, we heard that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked not only human beings, but more than $1 billion across various countries. We don't know how he amassed a fortune, an individual with little to no financial expertise, how he amassed such a fortune, and guess what, Nancy? He funded the modeling operations of John Luke Brunel in Paris. I mean, Dylan Howard joining us. Dylan, for Epstein's day job where he amassed millions

Starting point is 00:29:19 and millions and millions of dollars, he basically had one client. He was like a wealth advisor. You know, trot on down the street to Wells Fargo and they'll have a wealth advisor, you know, to tell you what to do with your children's college fund, blah, blah, blah. That's what he did. He had one client. True, a rich client, but there's no way in H-E-L-L that he got all that money from wealth advising one client. I mean, did they think we all just fell off the turnip truck? Because we didn't. Where did all that money come from? And I want to talk to you about Jean-Luc Brunel, all right?

Starting point is 00:29:56 He died behind bars, just as you said, but the circumstances surrounding his death have not been made public, right? They have not. They have not. Why? There are theories out there that his death was similar to that of Epstein. And one thing that needs to be explored, not only is this alleged cover-up of the tape, it is also how was Jeffrey Epstein able to be given the means to be able to commit suicide, if that's what he did behind bars in New York City. Because the reality is he had clothes.

Starting point is 00:30:34 Well, you're about to pass a brick, if you get my understanding, when Joe Scott Morgan explains to you why he, a death investigator with over 1,000 death scenes under his belt, says this is not a suicide. But back to Brunel, the French Epstein, as he has been called, Jean-Luc Brunel. Why do I care about him? Because he was a frequent companion of Epstein's and he, like Epstein, was detained at an airport because of a US launched investigation into Epstein. So what do you think he would tell authorities to save his own skin? Tell authorities about Epstein, about Epstein's clients. But he never got to do that because he ended up dead and no one will tell us why. So what happens over in a Parisian jail cell actually matters in this case,

Starting point is 00:31:38 Dylan Howard. So we've got Jean-Luc Brunel, but there is of course Epstein. There is Virginia Geffrey who is sitting on a boatload of money from her Prince Andrew Settlement, has a beautiful mansion and then suddenly after she wins she kills herself. Then we have Carillon Andriano, an Epstein victim, and LeapSky Patrick, another Epstein victim. Could they have testified to who their clients were? But we'll never know because they're all dead, Dylan. That's entirely correct, Nancy, but that's not to say that the death of a number of these people that were alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein were indeed nefarious. What we do know about Virginia

Starting point is 00:32:31 Jouffre is that she was going through a very difficult time as a result of being catapulted at a young age, at the tender teenage years of her life, to be catapulted into this scandal. So I'm not a subscriber that Virginia Jouffre was offed, if you like, but what I can tell you is my own knowledge from having spoken to a number of victims of Epstein. These young girls that have matured in life have gone on to live scared and paranoid lives, feeling like, and in some instances knowing that they have been followed. Them pointing the blame back at people

Starting point is 00:33:12 like Epstein and Maxwell who they believe terrorized them throughout the course of their criminal trials. All with one pursuit to zip them up, to keep them quiet, to frighten them from testifying, and to ensure that potentially people like Maxwell and Epstein were able to potentially secure their own futures. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me now is a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert and consultant. It's Karen Stark at karenstark.com.

Starting point is 00:33:56 Karen, thank you for being with us, jumping off of what Dylan Howard just said. As if these victims hadn't been through enough, for Pete's sake, Jeffrey has photos, yet people still claim she's a liar, right? Now, the bodies are piling up, and the government refuses to release the files. This is rubbing salt in the wounds of the victims, but also, I would find it very scary that when people speak out, they are lambasted in public.

Starting point is 00:34:31 They meet misfortune. These were girls who were underage. Their brains were not developed. You don't develop until you're in your 20s, and their lives are crushed. They're terrified. They see people dying. They have not been able, in many, many instances, I even know one of them, they don't have normal lives. This changes everything, the picture of your future. And so it's awful. It's just terrible that this continues

Starting point is 00:35:01 and that we don't get to the bottom of what's going on here. It's not just about a client list, a little black book or videos. It's about a potential murder, yes, of Epstein. You may not care about his life, but don't you care about the truth? Don't you want to know what really happened and what happened to the other four people connected to this case who all committed suicide? Well, take a listen to Dr. Michael Biden. There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage, and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three fractures like this

Starting point is 00:35:48 in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a fracture of the hyoid bone or a fracture of the thyroid cartilage. Going over, over a thousand jail hangings, suicides, in the New York City state prisons over the past 40, 50 years, no one had three fractures. I have questioned Dr. Michael Barton on many occasions, and he is truly a brilliant. Joining me now is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, professor of forensics, Jacksonville

Starting point is 00:36:21 State University, author and star of Body Bags, a Joe Scott Morgan hit podcast. All that aside, he has investigated over 1,000 deaths, be they suicide, homicide, accidental, natural causes, all of them. Everything in the book, he's investigated it. Okay Joe Scott, again thank you for being with us. I need you and I need you now. Explain what Biden's talking about. Okay before we get to what he said about the internal findings, it's very important Nancy that we understand the external findings on Epstein's body. When you have a hanging, okay, you begin to think about the body being supported, right? So we have a ligature here. We're talking about a hanging where an individual is supported.

Starting point is 00:37:16 You've got a point of contact here, and you get a feature on the neck with hangings that's called tinting. T-E-N-T-I-N-G. Not like car windows, but like a pup tent. The actual furrows go up behind the ears, Nancy. That doesn't exist with Epstein. It goes parallel to the shoulders. If you look at the ligature mark around his neck, and this is the external thing, you'll see this kind of dry, abraded area that runs parallel to his neck. Listen to a person, when this happened, there were many of us that saw those images saying, this doesn't look like a typical hanging, okay?

Starting point is 00:37:54 How in the hell do you explain that? Where does that come from? That's not something that you normally see. Here we have the hyoid. It's fractured, that's the greater horn, Nancy. That does happen with homicidal strangulations. Over the course of my career, Nancy, I've had one case that I recall that was not a homicide where I had a fractured hyoid and that was a car accident with an old car where

Starting point is 00:38:20 a guy fell off of an abutment, three stories hit his neck on there. You have to have direct pressure. And then to think about that that's going to be generated by this cloth that's on the floor. The deeper the furrow, the narrower their cord. They're trying to sell us this idea that this was in fact the strips of material that are torn up in this pig sty of a cell that this guy was living in. I don't see how you can make sense of it. The MEO investigators... Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,

Starting point is 00:38:55 hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey is the expert. Former associate warden MDC Brooklyn, former senior warden US Department of Justice. This is not allowed, Dr. Hendricks. I've been in so

Starting point is 00:39:10 many jails, penitentiaries, juvie jails, you name it, halfway houses, blah blah blah, I could go on. That's not allowed. And a jail cell, that is not allowed for many reasons. Succinctly, explain why. One, for sanitary reasons and safety reasons. I mean, they rip clothes to make clotheslines. No. And things of that nature. No.

Starting point is 00:39:33 I hate to be abrupt. Dr. Hendricks, I like you, but that's not why. That is not allowed because we don't want to have a messy inmate. Eh. What? No. Safety is security. It's not allowed because it says danger. It is. You're right. It's safety and security. And when someone walks up to that cell and looks through that little small window in that shoe cell, we should have told him to get take that

Starting point is 00:39:59 stuff down, give me those extra seats, give me those extra clothes, and get this stuff out of the cell. There is no way that any cell should ever look like in a special house. No way, no way, this looks like a teenage girl's nasty dormitory. Put the picture back up. Hendrix, don't you know how many inmates, how many would wanna tear that sheet up

Starting point is 00:40:20 and get a warden like you around the neck with it? That's why that is not allowed. And I have been in so many jails again, Hendrix, I can't even count them, that I've never seen anything like that in my life. Why, Hendrix, why? This is obviously what we're seeing is a huge neglect in basic correctional fundamentals, and that's running a safe, humane, and clean environment.

Starting point is 00:40:53 And there's no way that this individual should have had all those extra sheets, been able to accumulate all this extra material to put himself in a less position to commit suicide. So in a nutshell, that is the reason why this should have never happened. Or be murdered. Again, I don't know who his inmate neighbor was. We haven't been given those files. They're in the files that were going to be released.

Starting point is 00:41:17 So Joe Scott Morgan, what's the single most probative fact regarding Epstein's body? I think probably this level of trauma What is the most probative fact regarding Epstein's body? I think probably this level of trauma that you're seeing that is just inconsistent with what Dr. Mike had said, Nancy, that this is not consistent with a suicidal event. This is consistent with what you see relative to a homicidal event. And it's not just that greater horn that's fractured there on the hyoid, Nancy.

Starting point is 00:41:47 We also have bilateral cartilage fractures that are on either side. That requires a tremendous amount of pressure, either through a ligature that's directly applied or through throttling where the hands are used. And that is snap. You're not gonna get this kind of dynamic. And Dylan Howard again, guys, joining us, author of Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales,

Starting point is 00:42:08 and it is incredible. By the way, I've read every word of it. Dylan Howard, correct me if I'm wrong. You've got the death of Epstein. His own brother says it was a murder. He does not have a money interest in that. You've got the death of Epstein, which is shrouded in mystery. You've got the death of Jean-Luc Brunel, which is also shrouded in mystery, which is the French

Starting point is 00:42:30 Epstein that worked with Epstein. And then the other three, you've got two of them accidental overdoses. And then you got Jaffray's. So we're never going to know the truth if they don't release those files. Are we Dylan? Well the FBI DOJ memo said Nancy that no further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted. I couldn't think of anything more perilous than that statement. For transparency's sake and for closure on this matter, if there is ever to be closure. The full FBI and Department of Justice report needs to be released so that the American public

Starting point is 00:43:14 can weigh in and make its own judgment, because we are not trusting of our government institutions to have told us the truth about this scandal from day one. Bondi, yeah you, release the files. How can you put your head on your pillow at night after all those promises? We remember heroes, heroes in America and all over the world that are not afraid to speak out and not afraid to tell the truth and demand the truth. Bondi, you have a choice. You can make excuses to the public or you can finally man up and be a hero.

Starting point is 00:44:03 We wait as justice unfolds. Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off. God willing, I'll see you tomorrow night.. This is an iHeart podcast.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MESSAGE TO BONDI: RELEASE THE EPSTEIN FILES! You promised, NOW DELIVER!

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