Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Michael Jackson: Superstar pedophile, shocking evidence continues to emerge [Part 1]

Episode Date: January 28, 2020

Allegations of rape and child molestation followed superstar Michael Jackson. He repeatedly denied any abuse, but still settled one case out of court for millions of dollars. More allegations surfaced and Jackson was arrested, but found not guilty at trial. Why didn't the public believe Jackson could be a pedophile?Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Jason Oshins: NY Defense Attorney Steven Lampley: Former Detective, Author “Outside Your Door” Dr. Bethany Marshall: Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Francey Hakes: Former Federal Prosecutor, first-ever National Coordinator for Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction  Joe Scott Morgan: Forensics Expert, Professor of Forensics, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet"   Alexis Tereschuk: Investigative Reporter Radaronline.com  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Why did it take a documentary, a Hollywood documentary, to convince the world what so many of us knew at the time and were berated? I recall I got hate mail, death threats, the works for saying, hey, I'm a Jackson fan, but Jackson's a molester. Bam! Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. it just isn't fair what they put me through because there wasn't one piece of information that says i did that but let me ask to this day nothing still nothing let me ask nothing nothing nothing i got nothing i guess let me ask this and I'm trying to think how to phrase it, though.

Here is a man who's been in an inordinate amount of time with these young boys. What is a 36-year-old man doing sleeping with a 12-year-old boy or a series of them? Right. Okay, when you say boys, it's not just boys, and I've never invited just boys to come in my room. Come on, that's ridiculous. Not that ridiculous, according to California prosecutors, and not that ridiculous, according to a bombshell documentary. Michael Jackson, there is no doubt about it, was one of the most talented musicians in the world. But he was a child molester. What, if anything, can be done

now? I mean, see, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Believe it or not, the debate still rages on. You know, it's like the emperor's clothes. He has one little boy after the next in his bed overnight drinking wine with the little boy. What, could nobody see what was happening? Joining me in All-Star Panel, Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door, host of Crime and Forensics on KCAA-LA, StephenLampley.com, Jason Oceans, renowned defense attorney, joining me from New York. Psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall.

DrBethanyMarshall.com. Francie Hakes, former federal prosecutor, first ever national coordinator for child exploitation prevention and interdiction at Franciehakes.com. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. But right now, to Alexis Tereschuk, in the middle of it,

joining me from L.A., investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. Alexis, I don't get it you had victims lined up saying he molested me when i was a boy he shows up to court in his pajamas he still gets a not guilty from a jury then years later after jackson is dead thanks conrad, his doctor, suddenly there's a Hollywood documentary and everybody goes, oh yeah, he was a molester. I believe it now. What? Let's just start with the documentary. Everybody wanted to meet Michael or be with Michael. And then he likes you. I was seven years old. Michael asked, do you and the family want to come to Neverland?

We drive in and forget about all your problems. You were in Neverland. It was a fantasy. The days were filled with magical childhood adventure experiences. Playing tag, watching movies, eating junk food. with magical childhood adventure experiences. Playing tag, watching movies, eating junk food, anything you could ever want as a child. It's like hanging out with a friend. That's more your age. Just kid things, they were just doing kid things.

He just came across as a loving, caring, kind soul. It was easy to believe that he was just that. Out of a storybook, right? Out of a fairy tale. Hello, Wade. Today is your birthday, so congratulations. I love you. Goodbye. There's no thoughts of this is wrong or anything like that. He told me if they ever found out what we were doing, he and I would go to jail for the rest of our lives. Secrets will eat you up. You feel so alone. I want to be able to speak the truth as loud as I had to speak the lie for so long.

You are hearing Leaving Neverland, the documentary. Alexis, tell me why the documentary was so powerful it has now changed public opinion. Leaving Neverland was the documentary that was released at Sundance and Sundance Film Festival. And it had two of Michael Jackson's victims, and they laid bare what they said happened to them. It was so traumatizing. I was at the premiere for this. They had counselors outside the theater for people if they were feeling traumatized by the show, because these men who had been, they were men now, these were not, they were no longer boys. This happened 15 years ago to them. These were men in their thirties.

They described the actions of Michael Jackson and how he molested them. And they both said they had lied about this. Alexis Tereszczuk, Alexis Tereszczuk, do you think this is a tea party? You think the queen and her corgis are going to march in in about five minutes and you're going to sit down to some Earl Grey? Because that ain't happening. What did the men say happened to them when they were little boys with Michael Jackson? Don't spare me details. No.

What did they say exactly? They said that Michael Jackson raped them. They said that he molested them, that he fondled their genitals. They were very specific about how they would be in the bed with him and that he would sexually assault them. Take a listen to Michael Jackson. You earlier heard him with Diane Sawyer. Here he is with Ed Bradley. And I'm going to quote here. Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone. Yes. As we sit here today, do you still think that it's acceptable to share your bed with children? Of course.

Of course. Why not? If you're going to be a pedophile, if you're going to be Jack the Ripper, if you're going to be a murderer, it's not a good idea. That I'm not. That's how we were raised. And I didn't sleep in the bed with the child. Even if I did, it's okay. I slept on the floor. I gave the bed to the child. I would never stop helping and loving people the way Jesus said to. He said, continue to love, always love, bring

on the children, imitate the children, not childish, but childlike. Well, what's wrong with sharing your bed? I didn't say I slept in the bed. Even if I did sleep in the bed, it's okay. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. It's not where my heart is. I would slip my wrist first. I would never do anything like that. That's not Michael Jackson. I'm sorry. That's someone else. Okay. So who do I believe? Him or all the people now lining up saying, yes, it did happen. People that worked for him there in Neverland that saw him molesting children. So Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, I hate to drag you away from all your millionaire clients there in Rodeo Drive trying to figure out which pair of Louboutins to buy. Not judging.

But can I use your substantial brain? Tell me why everybody drags Jesus into the middle of everything. Here we've got an accused child molester. And he has to drag Jesus into it. You think Jesus is happy about that? And I'm certainly don't have a leg to stand on when I'm not speaking for Jesus. Of course, I don't think you would like that very much, but why, why does Jesus always, you know, I'll never forget when I first started prosecuting Bethany, I, um, I always wear my cross and, um, I got assigned to a courtroom,

one of the busiest courtrooms in inner city Atlanta, Fulton County Courthouse. And as soon as the defendants saw my cross the next week, the first one came in. I would do pre-trial negotiations with the defendant himself and his lawyer. The first one came in with a giant woven cross out of felt or yarn around his neck. I mean big, like, you know, eight inches long, big, hanging around his neck. And I took a look at it and just kept going. The next one came in with a yarn cross around his neck then the next one okay you know i still remember that moment and it was all with the public defender i said

what did you tell all your clients in the jail to do are these even the same cross i mean they're all red well what what you think no it's not working. I'm not that much of an idiot. So why do they always drag Jesus into it? Nancy, I think that's really a part of unadulterated grandiosity. So if we back up for a second, if these allegations are true, and evidently they are, these young men came forward, we could look at this through the lens of pedophilia, of Michael Jackson being a sex offender. And the definition of pedophilia is that there is more than five years age difference between the perpetrator and the victim. The victims are

generally prepubescent, although the age may vary. And the perpetrator attaches himself sexually to the victim until the victim grows up and ages out. And then they choose newer, younger victims. So we're thinking about this in terms of pedophilia, but let's think about it in terms of criminality, which is what you're talking about. Criminals are very grandiose. They want to be sitting at the right hand of God because then they can justify their actions. I mean, who can argue with you if you're God's emissary, if you're praying to God every day, and if when you give the children your molesting wine, you call it Jesus juice. Do you remember that? Michael Jackson called the wine Jesus juice. So he was fond of calling upon the name of the Lord, let's say, in order to justify his actions.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Michael Jackson got out of a car behind the Santa Barbara County Jail in handcuffs. His lawyer said the singer is enraged. He considers this to be a big lie. He understands the people who are outraged because if these charges were true, I assure you Michael would be the first to be outraged. Jackson had arrived on a private jet from Las Vegas. The plane rolled its nose into a hangar where Jackson got into a waiting car out of view of television cameras. He was taken into custody there at the airport. Jackson had his mugshot taken and he was fingerprinted here at the county jail before he posted a three million dollar bond. You are hearing what happened when Jackson pulled in and stepped out of a private

hangar in a private jet. This is ABC News correspondent Brian Rooney. So Jason Ocean's New York defense attorney, why is he so outraged? He's charged with felony child molestation. Boy witnesses are lined up to testify. What, he thinks he shouldn't be fingerprinted? And the reason photos were taken of his nude body, I might add, is because there were, according to police, identifiable markings in his groin area.

I think, as I recall, it had something to do with a skin disorder that the little boys could describe. So what are they, why are they able, it's like Jorn Vandersloot describing Natalie Holloway's underwear. Why? Why would they know about skin markings or discoloration in his genital area, Jason? Why shouldn't he be handcuffed, fingerprinted, and photoed? Well, he should have been.

He was charged and arrested and processed. Well, so why is Garagos so angry, quote, outraged, enraged? That's the job. I mean, you're playing towards the media. I mean, this isn't just a small-town case. This is huge. This is huge. This is theater. It's production.

Everything is about Michael Jackson. You know, why wouldn't you be outraged on behalf of your client and indignant, much like he was in the Ed Bradley interview? Much more soft-spoken than, you know, counsel garagos but nonetheless playing the angle that you have michael's card was you know the lord and acting childlike and garagos is you know just indignant this is michael jackson how could you possibly think that well as a matter of fact he was arrested take a listen to the district attorney. Yesterday morning at around 8.30 a.m., investigators from the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department, Santa Barbara District Attorney's Office, served a search warrant at Neverland Ranch in Los Olivos. Simultaneous to the service of the warrant at Neverland Ranch, two search warrants were also served in Southern California. Approximately 70 investigators from the Sheriff's Department and the District Attorney's Office were involved in the service of this warrant at Neverland Ranch.

The operation was concluded around 11 p.m. last night. The service of the warrants was part of an ongoing investigation alleging criminal misconduct on the part of Michael Jackson. The basis for this investigation regarding Mr. Jackson involves allegations of child molestation 288A of the California Pedal Code. Additionally, an arrest warrant for Mr. Jackson has been issued on multiple counts of child molestation. The bail amount on the warrant has been set at $3 million.

To Justice Scott Morgan, forensics expert, exactly what are they looking for at Neverland Ranch? Well, they're going to look for anything that's going to tie Michael Jackson back to these crimes that he is alleged to have committed? We're talking about any kind of videography evidence. Did he film anything? Is there any kind of physical evidence that's been left behind that would tie him back to these activities that he's involved in relative to these kids? And also, is there any kind of, are there any kind of pornographic images that are there? Let's say, for instance, child pornography that's there, because many times these individuals that engage in this behavior are collectors.

They fantasize about this. They think about this all the time. So they go around collecting things. And if he's got specific victims, is there a chance that he photographed them? Is there a chance that he videotaped them so he could go back and relive these experiences? Well, of course, this was not the first time superstar Michael Jackson had been investigated. Listen. I want to make several things clear about why this is different from the last investigation.

Number one, it is different because the law in California has changed, and it was changed specifically because of the 1993-94 Michael Jackson investigation. The law in California at that time provided that a child victim could not be forced to testify in a child molest proceedings without their permission and consent and cooperation. As a result of the Michael Jackson case, the legislature changed that law, and that is no longer the law in California. Secondly, as you all know, or most of you know, either from being involved or knowing about that investigation, there were never any charges brought in that investigation.

No warrant issued. There is a warrant outstanding, and I can assure you that within a very short period of time, there will be charges filed against Mr. Jackson. Multiple counts. To RadarOnline.com investigative reporter Alexis Tereschuk, so 93-94, none of the witnesses would testify. They would not come forward. But things started to change. Let me ask you, in the 93-94 investigation, what were the allegations? The same as every other allegation, that he had him in his bed, that he slept with him, that he followed him, that he sexually assaulted him.

To Stephen Lampley, detective and author of Outside Your Door, host of Crime and Forensics KCAA in L.A., Stephen, do we know the name of the alleged victim in 93? Yeah, that was a 12-year-old boy named Jordan Chandler, Nancy. And I assume he would not testify? He did give a description of Jackson's genitals, and when presented to the jury along with the actual description of Michael's genitals, the jurors felt that they did not match in this instance. But Jackson went ahead and settled for $23 million with the understanding that this was not admitting guilt. This is just to get rid of the trial and let's go back to living our lives. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did you ever, as this young boy said you did, did you ever sexually engage fondle have sexual contact with this child or any other child never ever I could never harm a child or anyone it's not in my heart it's not who I am and it's not what I meant I'm not even interested in that why did you settle the case and and it looks to everyone as if you paid a huge amount of money to get silence. I talked to my lawyers, and I said, can you guarantee me that justice will prevail?

And they said, Michael, we cannot guarantee you that a judge or a jury will do anything. And with that, I was like catatonic. I was outraged. How much money? Totally outraged. So what I said, I have got to do something to get out from under this nightmare. We got together again with my advisors and they advised me. It was hands down a unanimous decision.

Resolve the case. This could be something that could go on for seven years. Okay. Do you believe him or do you believe this? Okay. He said that he wanted to show me. Don't mess with me that he wanted to show me how to masturbate. He wanted to show you how to masturbate? Okay. Okay.

I said no. And he said he'd do it for me. Okay. And did he do it for you? Go ahead, Kevin. it's fine. Put his hand in my pants. Did he put it on the outside? Inside. Inside?

And what did he do next? He started masturbating. Okay. I told him I didn't want to do that. That is just one of the reasons new charges were brought after the $23 million settlement with another little boy's family. You were hearing sex victim, then a little boy gavin arvizo speaking to police to francy hakes joining me former federal prosecutor francy it just it just makes my skin the hair on my neck just rises up just hearing this you think they wanted to go up against Michael Jackson? No. But when you

hear a victim speak about what Jackson did to him, you have to seek justice. Why that jury let Jackson go, I will never know. But this is the kind of interview you hear every day, Francie. Well, that's right, Nancy. And one of the most significant things we just heard was from Michael Jackson himself when he was answering questions. I would never harm a child. This is classic defense from those of the sexual interest in children because they truly believe that their sexual interest in children is reciprocated by the child and that that kind of sexual activity, that illegal sexual activity, that deviant sexual activity between them and children isn't harmful to the child. So Michael

Jackson may very well have been telling his version of the truth that he did not harm a child because in his mind, sexual abuse of children isn't harmful, but it absolutely makes your skin crawl. And these children all tell the same consistent story of the pattern and practice of Michael Jackson, which is classic grooming behavior, bringing the children in, plying them with alcohol, bringing them to the ranch, providing them with gifts, giving himself this kind of stature. He's a classic acquaintance offender, and the jury just simply could not withstand the wattage of his star power, and they disregarded the true story of these children. Well, you were hearing Gavin Arvizo describing what Jackson did to him as a little boy. Now take a listen to our friend at CBS, Gail King, as she speaks with another then-boy, Wade Robson.

That first night, Michael kind of took us on a little bit of a tour, and he said to me and my sister, you can stay in one of the guest rooms or you can stay in here with me if you want. And my reaction was, of course I want to stay with you. We had one more night that way. Myself and my family were going to leave and go on another kind of vacation to the Grand Canyon. I was devastated to leave Michael. Michael was devastated for me to leave. He actually sobbed. So you got to stay. So I got to stay. And so it was just Michael and I.

It never landed for the next week. And your parents allowed stay. So I got to stay. And so it was just Michael and I in Neverland for the next week. And your parents allowed that. My parents allowed that. Within either the first or second night of Michael and I being alone at Neverland, the night started changing. One of the ways I remember it starting is, you know, Michael just sort of starting to touch my legs and touch my crotch over my pants. It progressed to him performing oral sex on me, him showing me how to perform oral sex on him. It's, I don't even know how to respond to that exactly. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, I know I'm way overprotective, but why would you leave your child with a grown man and let him sleep in the room with him?

Nancy, it's inexplicable to me that any parent would do this. You know, they must have been swayed by his celebrity. They must have imagined that nothing would go wrong. But you know, the Neverland Ranch was there to groom children and their families, right? Because this is what pedophiles do. They don't just groom the child. Like with Robson, you know, his sister was there, his entire family was there. In almost every victim instance, the entire family was brought to Neverland. And I think that not only did he prey on children, but he preyed on vulnerable families. You might want to think, Nancy, that for every family who allowed their child to spend the night, there may have been 20 others who didn't. So these sex offenders like Michael Jackson, they are prolific

in their offending. There was one stat that male on boy sex offenders offend on average 562 times throughout the lifespan. So we're just seeing the outliers, these parents that turned a blind eye, but it would be interesting to know about all the kids that got away and all the parents that said no and were protective of their children. That's another story, right? It just goes on and on. His pool of victims is very far-reaching. Listen to our friend Gail King. He introduced me to masturbation. He said I taught him how to French kiss. And then it moves on to oral sex. Are you frightened or thinking this is weird or wrong? No, no, it's in the context of a loving, close relationship. There's no alarm bells going off

in your head or any thoughts like that. Really, it's just, I love this person, and we're trying to make each other happy. He said I was his first, but even as a kid, you don't even know what that means. So you're lovers and you're best friends. What does that mean, James? You're in a relationship and you're lovers. You're a little boy. Right. And he's a 30-something man, and you're a little boy. Because at that age, how do you even know what that means? Well, you don't. You just feel really connected to someone, and you just love them intensely. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

He introduced me to masturbation. He said I taught him how to French kiss. And then it moves on to oral sex. Are you frightened or thinking this is weird or wrong? No, no, it's in the context of a loving, close relationship. There's no alarm bells going off in your head or any thoughts like that. Really, it's just, I love this person and we're trying to make each other happy. He said I was his first, but even as a kid, you don't even know what that means. So you're lovers and you're best friends. What does that mean, James? You're in a relationship and you're lovers. You're a little boy. Right. And he's a 30-something man and you're a little boy.

Because at that age, how do you even know what that means? You don't. You just feel really connected to someone and you just love them intensely. Well, that was yet another then boy victim, James Safechuck, speaking to Gayle King. It goes on and on. What I don't understand is how a jury managed to turn away from the evidence. Alexis Tereszczuk joining us, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. Alexis, what exactly were the charges, the second set of charges? They were child molestation, child assault. To Francie Haake, former federal prosecutor.

Wait in, Francie. Well, Nancy, they were California's version of statutes you and I would be very familiar with from Georgia, which would have been 16-6-4, child molestation. That is actually engaging in some kind of illicit sexual activity with a child. They have very specific definitions. And here, the definitions included actually touching the genitals of the child and performing oral sex on the child and having the child perform oral sex on Michael Jackson. They were very serious charges. And what's so unbelievable to me is that a jury just completely disregarded the consistent testimony of the child and his

brother and his family members, especially when you take into context all the statements that by that point Michael Jackson had made that he didn't even hide about sleeping with children I think there is this is pure and simple this was a case of jury nullification I think that it is a classic example Nancy that you and I would have faced as prosecutors in the 90s where you had juries who just did not want to believe children they did not want to believe children. They did not want to believe child sexual abuse existed. And when you took a celebrity and put him in that mix, there was no way they were going to convict someone of a crime that they didn't understand, didn't want to look at, and didn't even think existed. Let me respond with the actual charges against Michael Jackson.

Now, we know the investigation in 93-94 led to nothing, but Jackson was ultimately indicted on four counts of molesting a minor, four counts of intoxicating a minor in order to molest him, one count of attempted child molestation, one count of conspiring to hold the boy and his family captive, and conspiring to commit extortion and child abduction. Jackson found not guilty on all of these. To Alexis Tereschuk in regular people talk, what does all that mean? Who was the victim in the ultimate charges? The victim was a boy named Gavin Arvizo. He and Michael Jackson

had met, he had cancer. Michael Jackson found out that this little boy had cancer, started sending his family gifts and showering them with attention, then brought them to Neverland. They brought Gavin, his brother, his mom, and his dad. They all testified during this trial. And though what everybody is saying is they don't understand jury nullification, what happened was for some reason, this jury hated Gavin's mother. They said that she was combative on the stand. They didn't like her. And they believe that she had made her son lie about this. This is what a juror from Santa Monica, California said. I could never imagine being the kind of mother who would have the more, who would teach my children such bad morals. They

believe that this mom told her son to lie about it. And they kept saying it was for money. Gavin's family never asked Michael Jackson for any money. This was something that his lawyer said on the stand. There was no evidence to this. And this is what the jurors believed at the time. What did they mean in the charges by conspiring to hold the boy and his family captive and conspiring to commit extortion and child abduction? So he was, they were saying that they brought them to Neverland and that they that they didn't have a lot of money. Michael Jackson obviously had a ton of money and that he wouldn't let them leave. And he kept saying, oh, no, just stay here.

Just stay here. It won't be anything. So the prosecutors had said that he held them captive. And then he would say, oh, don't tell anybody because the media will turn all this into something bad. And that is the extortion. The police will look at me and they'll all think this is bad when this is just something so wonderful and innocent, as Michael Jackson always says. Did the jury dislike Gavin's mom? Take a listen to ABC GMA.

She would look at the jury and snap her fingers and say, you know, this is the way it should be. And she was right in our faces. Yes. That was very intimidating because I was directly, Mike and I were directly across from the witnesses And she would turn right to us like she's just you know, but Melissa. What did that say to you? I mean apart from how it made you feel what did that say to you about what who she was in the testimony she gave Um her testimony a lot of the parts of her testimony I wanted to just break out laughing, but I couldn't. You know, it hurt.

She was up and down, up and down. And the parts that I felt that she should have been more, you know, more emotional about, she wasn't. So it's just not credible, you're saying? It's just so hard for me to take in to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst in Beverly Hills. I wonder how that juror feels now after leaving Neverland. The documentary comes out. It persuades the world Jackson was a child molester. And she says the molestation victim's mother made her want to break out laughing. You know, Nancy, there's a saying in the field of law, there are no model plaintiffs. The molestation victim's mother made her want to break out laughing.

You know, Nancy, there's a saying in the field of law, there are no model plaintiffs, right? Just because you bring somebody in as a plaintiff doesn't mean that they're likable. And this juror should feel ashamed. She fixated on Gavin's mother's personality characteristics rather than the fact that a little boy was likely molested. And this is a common mistake that jurors make. And if I'm correct about this, Gavin's mother was also on welfare. And Mesereau wove this long tail and dug into the mother's history and found out that she had committed some kind of welfare fraud. And he paraded this in front of the jury, and he convinced them that the mother was not trustworthy, that she was unlikable. And the jurors got so fixated on the mother's character traits

that they were blinded, and they did not look to the reality of what might be happening. And Nancy, the reality was right in front of them. I mean, Neverland was a pedophile's playground. As I said earlier, he used it not only to groom children. I mean, he had a Ferris wheel and, you know, a whole circus fairground set up over there, but he used it to groom the entire family.

And instead, sadly, the jurors fixated on the mother's character rather than the child's testimony. Tomorrow on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. One little boy after the next in his bed overnight drinking wine with the little boy. What, could nobody see what was happening? Why did it take a documentary, a Hollywood documentary, to convince the world? Michael Jackson's sex abuse accusers can now sue his companies following a court appeal. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.