Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Michigan Woman Uses Fake ‘Rent-a-Hitman’ Website To Have Ex Killed

Episode Date: December 28, 2021

Wendy Wein wanted her ex-husband dead, and she thought the “Rent-A-Hitman” website would help her out. It helped her into a jail cell. The site is fake and there's all kinds of red flags on the web page pointing it out. The Michigan woman originally used a pseudonym as she placed her inquiry, but gave her real contact information when she made a “service request.” The website owner contacted Michigan State Police with the information. An undercover detective contacted Wein, posing as a representative of the website, then met with her at a cafe.That's where Wein told the detective she wanted her former husband killed. Wein handed over her ex's home and work addresses, and his work schedule. Wein said she’d pay $5,000 for the hit and at a second meeting made a $200 down payment. Wein pled guilt to solicitation of murder and using a computer to commit a crime.Joining Nancy Grace today: Troy Slaten - Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC, Twitter @TroySlaten  Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology" Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Jessica Dupnack - Reporter, FOX 2 News, WBJK (Detroit), Instagram: @JessicaDupnack, Twitter @JDupnackFOX2 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The dark web is not safe, but RAH is. What is R-A-H? Well, of course, Rent-A-Hitman. Okay, drink this in. The dark web is not safe, but Rent-A-Hitman is. Rent-A-Hitman.com. Our website is safe, secure, available to you right here on the World Wide Web. Rent a Hitman. So here is my question. How does rentahitman.com end up embroiled in saving a man's life from a hit. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. First of all, high-profile lawyer joining me out of L.A., Troy Slayton with Slayton Lawyers, Dr. Sherry Swartz, forensic psychologist and author of Criminal Behavior. You can find her at PantherMitigation.com. Professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a brand new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Special guests joining me from Fox 2 News in Detroit, WBJK, Jessica Dupnak is joining us. But I want you to take a

listen first to our friends at Fox 2 Detroit, Our Cup One. Listen. The site is rentahitman.com, luring a Monroe County woman to see about having her ex-husband killed. The inquiry real enough, gaining the attention of Michigan State Police. The whole scenario more common than you'd think. The creator of the website explains. These people are seeking how to hire a hitman on the Internet. One of them from Monroe County, Wendy Ween, charged for trying to hire someone to kill her ex-husband, filling out a lengthy questionnaire on the fictitious website. She was asked those two questions. Do you still require our services?

And would you like me to put you in contact with the field operative? She answered yes. That was enough for Bob Ennis, the creator of RentAHitman.com, to report her to Michigan State Police. Well, all I can say is thank heaven for RentAHitman.com. Now, listen to this. The website RentAHitman.com, quote, got a problem that needs resolving? With over 17,985 U.S.-based field operatives, we can find a solution that's right for you, the website promises. Along with a badge bragging about the site's HIPAA compliance. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Troy Slayton, which you do love to do. HIPAA compliance in normal phraseology means you keep medical secrets secret. That's why your doctor can't give your name to the local newsletter because everything you tell a doctor or her staff is

secret. That's what HIPAA is, right? That's right. It's the Health Information Privacy and Portability Act. So, okay. It's to protect your personal, it's to protect all of your health information so that way nobody but your doctor can get that information. What does that have to do with hiring a hit man? So, long story short, they offer a hit, a simple solution. And to you, Jessica Dupnag, joining me from Fox 2 News, WBJK, we can find a solution that's right for you with over about 18,000 operatives.

You mean killers in the U.S.? Is that what they're touting? And they even have a, what did you tell me jackie they have a a bonus or a discount for seniors yeah it's actually senior discount okay tell me everything with me is jessica dupe night with fox 2 news wb jk so tell me first of all what is rent a hitman.com oh this is really a story within a story a guy named Bob Innes he's a 54 year old Northern California guy back in 2005 he was dipping his toe in the sort of the web business started rent a hit man calm

as a spoof it was more about web hits than actual hit men in the sense that we think of them so he starts this website that the business venture he was after goes belly up he lets the site lie couple years later he checks the inbox he's got 300 requests for services of rent a hitman people from all over the world looking to have someone killed he thinks maybe it's a joke people are messing with him, lets it lie for another couple years. Then he gets an email from a woman named Helen, she's out of Canada, wants three people killed,

and she won't leave Bob Innes and the Rent-A-Hitman site alone. Then he finally starts to take it seriously, corresponds with this woman Helen, who wants three people killed, finally realizes she means business. She actually wants to hire him. Then he reports it to police. Long story short, Helen ends up spending, I think, four months in prison for soliciting murder. Fast forward to right now. Well, you know what? I know it sounds far-fetched to a lot of people, but believe it or not,

hitmen are hired online. I want you to take a listen to sound about Tina Jones and her dark web murder-for-hire plot. These are our friends at ABC7. This is John Garcia out of Chicago, ARCOT 16. Jones was having an affair with the intended victim's husband who she worked with. She used the relative anonymity of the dark web to hire a company called Sicilian Hitmen International to kill his wife, all from her quiet suburban Des Plaines apartment. But a network news organization investigating the dark web stumbled onto the plot and reported it to Woodridge police. Without their bringing this evidence to law enforcement's attention, who knows how this case would have ended up. She admitted that she had accessed the Hitman website. Investigators found evidence of Bitcoin payments and communication between Jones and the Hitman website on her

laptop. On her laptop? I mean, Joe Scott Morgan, you're the professor of forensics. Does nobody understand that you can never really clean off your laptop, no matter how many times you try to delete items? No, you can't. Particularly if you get law enforcement involved in a case like this, they'll be particularly interested and they will go to great lengths to recover anything that might be there. They'll even send it off to the feds, Nancy.

And they have all kinds of interesting tools where they can recover all of this data that you might think that you've gotten rid of. But, of course, you haven't. Yeah, the only way you can really get rid of it is just take out in the driveway and run over with your car. But even then, you've got to worry, the only way you can really get rid of it is just take it out in the driveway and run over it with your car. But even then, you've got to worry about what's stored in the cloud. You may run over it. You may take it apart bit by bit, your computer. But what you have stored in the cloud still exists. And what's amazing to me, Troy Slayton, people may not understand the workings of the internet or the cloud or their computer, but doesn't everybody know if you don't want it to be on page six tomorrow morning,

then you don't put it in writing. You know, I always told clients that never text anything, never say anything on the phone, never email anything that you wouldn't mind being read aloud at your trial. But what really strikes me about this case, Nancy, is that I'm looking at the defense. There may very well be a viable defense here of entrapment. Oh, good grief. You know what, Troy? Just hold on to the defense. You're putting the cart before the horse. I haven't even gotten that far. Right now, I'm talking about these idgits who go online

and send emails about hiring a hitman. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, you know, we always see movies about these highly intelligent criminals that manage to outsmart police. And yes, they're out there. But for the most part, I really don't think they're that smart. Dr. Sherry Schwartz is joining us. She's a forensic psychologist who specializes in the link between criminal behavior and psychology. I mean, they ain't that smart, Dr. Sherry.

Well, that's my experience, Nancy. They're average intelligence for the most part and sometimes below. And this one, I mean, we don't often get a lot of cases we can laugh about, right? This is one we kind of can because no one was actually harmed. But it is a real head scratcher that in this day and age and everything that's out there about how, you know, we're being watched and monitored and all of this information about us is so readily available, even after we think it's long gone. Why you would put your details into a website to have someone murdered is just beyond me. I mean, this is sort of an episode for, I hate to say it, I hate to be mean and sound mean, but for stupid criminals, right?

Wow. I had no idea you were so mean, Dr. Sherry. I mean, the depth of your evil is before now untold. We're talking about a woman trying to kill somebody. She's the bad guy, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, not you. Oh, you know, you really are. You take the cake. You called a criminal. What did you call him? Dumb? Wow. Okay. We're talking about a woman trying to have her husband murdered. Now, this is the one that I love to play. And you're going to know who I'm talking about. Dahlia DiPolito, the so-called black widow. Now, her defense lawyers keep telling me over and over that I'm wrong when I say she tried to kill him once by poisoning his Starbucks. Now, the other day, I forgot to tell you this, Jackie, my daughter, Lucy, who's just

turned 14, this was actually on her birthday party. I had five of her, she and four of her little friends in the backseat. And they all said they wanted to go to Starbucks. Well, Lucy Lynch has never had a coffee, a real coffee. And she went, okay, let's go to Starbucks. Well, Lucy Lynch has never had a coffee, a real coffee. And she went, okay, let's go to Starbucks. So I'm driving through, ready to pay the awful amount they're going to charge me. And one little girl gets five pumps of caramel and five pumps of something else. I mean, they're all just big glasses of whipped cream, essentially. And I was thinking about it, and I saw my daughter in the rearview window.

I didn't turn around and look at her. She actually got regular coffee. She took a sip. She go, and she managed to hold it in and not spit it out. But later when I cleaned the car out, no, they did not help me. I found her completely full coffee in the beverage container in the back seat. She was trying so hard to blend in with all these other girls that are having their frappuccinos and their whatever they were having. My point is, that's a perfect place to hide poison. And one of those frothy, gooey

drinks at Starbucks, you'd never taste a thing. Well, Dahlia's attempt, the husband didn't drink it. So that didn't work. So I want you to hear what Dahlia DiPolito says to a hitman. Take a listen to Hour Cut 4A. This is from ABC 2020. Police say Dahlia thinks she is meeting an actual hitman in his cherry red convertible. He makes his plan crystal clear.

A burglary gone wrong that leaves Mike dead. The undercover detective, he really wants to nail Dahlia. Make sure he's got it on tape and on camera that she is really going to pay him to kill her husband. And he says, are you sure, Dahlia? Now, when it's done, you know, you're not going to have to change your mind. Even if you change your mind. No, there's no like positive, like 5,000 percent sure. There it is. The press would have a field day with this line. Listen again.

She's 5,000% sure. No, she wasn't just 100% sure. She was 5,000% sure that she wanted her husband killed. Troy Slayton, veteran trial lawyer, high-profile lawyer out of L.A., criminal defense attorney. Troy Slayton, you know how much I love what she says. I'm 5,000% sure I want him dead. I love that line. You know how many times I've played that?

But not as many times as I've played the sting on her when the cops come up. Okay, wait. Let's just play that. Okay. Wait for it. Wait for it. Do we hear her crying in this one? Oh, I'm so happy.

Take a listen to our cut B as in brother one. Our cut eight. I'm Sergeant Ramsey. I'm the one that called you. Thank you for coming. I'm sorry to call you. Listen, we had a report of a disturbance at your house, and there were shots fired. Is your husband Michael? Okay, I'm sorry to tell you, ma'am. He you for coming. I'm sorry to call you. Listen, we had a report of a disturbance at your house and there were shots fired. Is your husband Michael? Okay, I'm sorry to tell you, ma'am. He's been killed.

He's been killed. No, no, no. Try to calm down. No, no, no. We need to get you to a police station. I can't let you in, ma'am. We have to do our job. You want us to find this killer. We need you get you to our police station. I can't let you see him, man. We have to do our job. If you want us to find this killer, okay, we need you to calm down. I'm going to need you to go with these detectives, okay? If you have enemies, is there anyone that would want to hurt him? Okay, who would want to hurt him?

Witnesses said they saw a black male running from him. I can't let you see him, ma'am. Ma'am, I cannot do this right now. Ma'am, I can't do it. Detective Yolkey, I need you to take her to the station. I can't let you see him, ma'am. Ma'am, I cannot do this right now. Ma'am, I can't do it. Detective Yolkey, I need you to take her to the station. I can't. Ma'am, go with these detectives. If you want to help your husband, okay? If you want to help your husband,

you need to go to the station with these gentlemen and tell us everything you know about who he knows, who he's connected to. Don't worry, we've already taken care of your dog with animal control for right now. Everything's under control. I was just like, where do you think you're going? Like a fine wine. Of course, he's not dead.

The husband's not dead. That's why I'm so happy right now. Any day I don't have a dead body. It's a good day, right, Joe Scott, death investigator? So long story short, she sets when the poison chai tea from Starbucks fails. Then she hires a hitman. And you heard her say, I'm 5,000% sure I want him dead. I'm surprised she didn't spell it out.

D-E-A-D, dead. Well, she hires a hitman. The hit goes down while she's working out. She's a fitness enthusiast and stripper, former stripper. And so the cops come tell her he's dead. He wasn't dead. It was a sting operation. I wish you could see that because when she's whining and screaming,

she's bending over, bending over, double down in pain, Troy Slayton, in pain. That was some pretty good acting because she thought she was on a reality show. You know that, Nancy. She thought she was filming a reality show. That was her defense. Wait a minute. Were you her lawyer? I was not. You sure sound like you are. What do you mean she thought it was a reality show? One of the things that she said was that she thought that this was all part of a reality show. I think I'm going to have to go to the shrink on this one to you, Dr. Sherry Schwartz. I guess when you have nothing left, you can say you can say it was all for a reality show. Well, I mean, Nancy, as you know, a lot of what I do that I'm retained to do is mitigation.

And I mean, I'm sitting over here trying not to control, you know, trying not to laugh out loud. That's ridiculous. You thought it was for a reality show. Well, wait, you either thought your husband was actually killed or you thought you were acting for a reality show. Right. It can't be both. Right. So it makes no sense. husband was actually killed or you thought you were acting for a reality show, right? It can't be both, right? So it makes no sense. And again, you know, to tie it back to the psychology of this perpetrator, I mean, this is a dangerous individual, as you pointed out about the rent-a-hitman lady.

I mean, these are people who want people dead and are willing to pay for that to happen. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. There's another psychological issue, and I want to go to you on this, Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator. Think about it. You and I have discussed many times the case of Lynn Turner, the woman ultimately convicted of murdering her boyfriend and her husband maybe two years apart. They both seemingly died of heart failure or some gastrointestinal problem. She was really giving them antifreeze. And I believe it was Jell-O shots and or in Jell-O, in Jell-O. And they couldn't taste it because antifreeze is sweet. That's why you have to make sure your dog doesn't sneak up to the car and try to drink it if it leaks.

Sweet. Aside from antiphrase, the frame of mind of someone that can so coldly, so calculatedly plan the murder of another human, much less someone you have children with, someone that you have loved in the past, even if you don't love them anymore, to stand by and see them poisoned in their chai latte or hire a hitman to go shoot them dead in the head. That's a whole nother mindset, Joe Scott, and we've seen it a lot. Yeah, yeah. And what's really fascinating about this, Nancy, is that they don't think about it in the sense that if you're seeking someone out, let's just say legitimately, you are actually seeking somebody out that would perform the service for you.

Do you realize what kind of level of evil that you're brushing up against? And this always happens, it seems as though, with people that are very unsophisticated when it comes to the world of crime. And I've got several friends that are police officers over the years that did undercover work on cases like this. And the interesting thing about it, I know two of these cases where the individuals that were eventually charged, they actually walked into biker, separate biker bars to solicit, solicit help in achieving this. And the thing about it is that many people that you go to seek out in these kind of seedy locations where you had this perception of danger, they don't want to get in further trouble. So what do they do? You reach out to somebody that you think is going to be really imposing and evil, and they roll over. They call their parole officer or they call a local constabulary and say, look, I got this lady that's telling me she wants her husband dead. And the next thing you know,

you're caught in the middle of a sting. Well, many people have said all good things must come to an end. And is such the case with Dahlia DiPolito's Oscar performance. What goes up must come down. Take a listen to when Dahlia DiPolito finds out Ruh-Roh, her husband, is not dead. Listen. I want to know if you know this guy. Come here. They bring in Officer Witty Jean, the supposed hitman from the car. Get over here.

You know who this guy is? No. You've never this guy is? No. You've never seen him before? I've never seen him before. She just stared at him. She said she didn't know him. And then, call it a resurrection. Oh my God.

He's alive. Police have another surprise for Dahlia Tipolito. Dad, please, come here. Mike, come here. She sees her husband. And he's alive. The show Cops captures this moment as well. What? You're alive?

I love that moment. And I'm sure a jury will, too. You're going to jail today for solicitation of murder. You're under arrest. I didn't do anything. Did you hear what I just told you? You kept saying, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. Was that all you could think of to say?

They were accusing me of trying to have my husband killed, and I didn't. Going down with the ship, Dahlia DiPolito. Well, you know, Troy Slayton, I can't believe you've led me down the garden path and gotten totally off topic here. We're talking not about Dahlia DiPolito, but Wendy Wine, who reportedly goes online to rentahitman.com to have her husband killed. Take a listen to our cut number four. This is Simon Shaquette, WXYZ Detroit. Detectives say an undercover operation in a Monroe County parking lot revealed Wendy was serious, even willing to cover extra costs to travel out of state where her ex-husband lives. We used a state trooper posing as the hitman and there was conversation, and she provided some funds for travels, and at that time, arrest was made.

Arrested for solicitation to commit murder, she was locked up at the Monroe County Jail, where she remains charged today. She's also accused of using a computer to commit a crime. Police tell us the owner of the site stated he's helped to stop more than 130 murders. I most definitely think that a life was saved. And doing a news story on this, I'm pretty sure that when this news story gets out, that some other lives might be saved by this. The case against Wendy Wayne is still open, and Michigan State Police are asking anyone who could have more info to call them right away. Now, interesting, you heard that she was arrested once she handed over funds. The law is

that talk is just that. That would be more along the lines of a conspiracy. But what is needed is an overt act under the law to further the conspiracy. Yeah. And that would be handing over the money, Troy. That's right. They need to show that there was an act in furtherance of the crime. But I would argue here. Because you don't know how many times Jack and I plotted to have you killed. But we haven't committed that overt act yet. Thank goodness. But in this case, the owner of the website, Mr. Ennis, says that he has saved over 130 lives, that he has worked with police on many different occasions.

That sounds to me like he's an agent of the police. No, dear Lord, we're not there yet, Troy. Again, cart before horse. You're now trying to argue that this guy who has this crazy website, RentAHitman.com, is somehow working for the cops. And therefore, Wendy Wine was entrapped by an agent of the state. Good luck with that. But at least you get an A for effort and an A plus for creativity. Jessica Dupnick with me, the expert on this case, joining us from Fox 2 News WBJK.

Let's just start at the beginning. Tell me the whole thing, Jessica. What happened? So Miss Wendy out of Monroe County, which just for a little context, blue collar, working class, really middle America outside about 45 minutes outside of Detroit, you know, sits down to her computer. I'm envisioning this and I've got a great picture in my head and simply Googles Hitman. And of course, rent a Hit-Hitman comes up. She fills out what's called a service request after reading some of those testimonials of satisfied clients, fills out her request to have her ex-husband murder. He even has testimonials of satisfied

clients on his fake Hitman site. Unbelievable. One of them actually says i basically i had my husband taken out after he cheated with the babysitter and now i'm single and ready to mingle and for some reason wendy did not put two and two together that this was this site was not on the up and up even when she found out the hit man was named guido finnelli she missed a lot of red flags, Nancy, a lot. Okay, so she contacts rentahitman.com. And then what happens? With me, Jessica Dupnak from WBJK. What happens then? So the webmaster, Bob Ennis, who poses as Guido, the person she's corresponding with, asks two key questions. Do you still require services and do you want me to put you in touch with a field operative? To which she said yes to both

of those. And at that point, Bob Innes, the creator of this whole site, then he reaches out to police, Michigan State Police, then set up a little meet and greet at a cafe in Monroe County. And that's where they work a deal for $5,000, maybe even more, to have her ex-husband killed. And at that time, she had to go over there. Why did she want him dead? I mean, he was an ex, correct? In another state? He was an ex for a reason, I guess. In another state.

And I guess she just couldn't let it go. She just wanted to end it. You know, that's when you grab your stuff and run. He's an ex. They're divorced and he's in another state. Run, lady. Run. OK, guys, take a listen now to our cut five.

Kimberly Gildo, we D.I.V. for news. A Monroe County woman is facing felony charges after allegedly trying to hire a hitman to kill her ex-husband. Prosecutors say 51-year-old Wendy Wine contacted the humor site rentahitman.com and specified her ex-husband as the target. The owner of the site contacted state police who set up an undercover sting in South Rockwood. She allegedly offered $5,000 to an undercover state trooper to kill her ex. She was arrested on charges of solicitation of murder and using a computer to commit a crime. Yeah, you may laugh all the way to the courthouse, Wendy Wine.

It's all fun and games till somebody calls the cops. And that somebody was RentAHitman.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now is a special guest who is an expert on the dark web and murder for hire website specifically. It's Thomas Holt, the director, the professor at the School of Criminal Justice at Michigan State University. Professor, thank you for being with us. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Professor, I'm sure you know the facts about the Wendy Wine case who actually goes online to rentahitman.com, which is, there's a great article in the Rolling Stone on this, which is actually a spoof website created by a guy. And if his words not mine, professor, I didn't think people would be that stupid. But actually, he thinks he's saved about, well, nearly 200 lives by people who are actually hiring a hitman coming to his website. First of all, could you explain what exactly is the dark web? Sure. The dark web is a portion of the internet that is hosted on what's called

Tor. And it's essentially an encrypted portion of the internet. So to get there, you have to download special tools like Tor or Free2P. There's a few different protocols that are out there, but they enable you to slow it down. Slow it down, sir. I'm just a JD. You are the, and I quote, director and professor at the School of Criminal Justice at Michigan State University, focusing on computer hacking, malware, and the role of the Internet in facilitating all manner of crime and deviance. Wow. I bet you can't fit that on a business card. But I, for one, am am very impressed so what were you saying so basically there's a difference between the open web which is where the website this person access is hosted that's the part of the internet you can get to through any web browser so when you go and you go online through Firefox or Chrome or whatever it is that you use, those are the sites you can

get to without having to do anything special. To get to the dark web, you have to download a special kind of software. And there's different kinds of software out there like Tor or Free2P. Are you saying Tor as in a tour of homes? T-O-U-R, tour? What are you saying? No, it's actually Tor, T--o-r and it stands for the onion and it it basically works by encrypting your traffic through other people's systems so when you download the software your computer traffic your internet traffic gets routed through other people who've downloaded the software as well. So it hides where you are by moving you through other people's systems. And people host things on the dark web like hitman schemes or hacking content or a lot of child pornography and sexual exploitation content, because it's harder to be identified.

You know what we were just talking about, Professor? We were just talking, I guess it was Monday, Jackie, we were talking about the Josh Duggar case, remember 19 and counting on TLC, downloading all the child porn through the dark web. And that's when I first heard the phraseology that you're talking about with me is Professor Thomas Holt from Michigan State University. Go ahead, Professor. And that's exactly right. There's a lot of different child pornography and sexual exploitation content on the dark web because it's harder to identify the users. So when you go to a website like LentaHitman on the open web, that site can capture your IP address. And so when you go to that site, if you're doing it from your home, that means the individual running the site knows, okay, this person at this date and time

connected with my site and then made a request. So it's easier to be identified. You make yourself more open on the open web, whereas you're concealed when you're on the dark web. What's interesting, well, there's so many things interesting about Wendy Wine's case. Jessica Dupnack joining us from Fox 2, WBJK Detroit. Jessica, is that while we have been joking around and somewhat glib, we're all just happy, Jessica, because he's not dead. The victim's not dead for once in a case that we're covering. But when we hear the professor speaking about what is found on the dark web, as Professor Holt pointed out, child porn, all manner of how to make a bomb, how to hire a hitman, how to create fake IDs, how to get out of the country, how to get fake passports, how to cheat, how to cheat on your taxes, how to make meth. It's all how to make a bomb. It's all there on the dark web.

I hope my children never find out about the dark web. And it's very, very sobering. Joe Scott Morgan, you're a professor of forensics, but I think of you as a death investigator. When you're hearing Professor Holt describing what's on the dark web, it almost makes me sick to my stomach. Yeah, it does. And, you know, you and I, we have these things that kind of haunt our dreams, don't we, Nancy, from the things that we've seen. And many people that take this deep dive into this abysmal area, they haven't seen the things that we've seen, and they don't understand the danger

that is involved in this environment and the people that indwell out there. You know, you can imagine these folks that are out there seeking out these kinds of services that, again, are unsophisticated when it comes to crime, and they step off of this ledge into this environment. And you really don't know what you're going to bring through the Internet back into your own life. And many times, hell will follow with it. You know, Troy Slayton. Yeah, jump in, Dr. Sherry. This is Jessica.

I just said, just a quick fact about that. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jessica Dubnett. When you think about Wendy, I mean, she's just kind of your average woman. And you talk about the Internet, you talk about the dark web and just the accessibility of it. Anybody can get to it. You have a passing thought. You can jump on the computer. You can take a deep dive and you're there. It's all at your fingertips. And this was just sort of a regular woman, obviously, with some very dark, deep thoughts.

You know, Jessica Dubnack joining me, who has been on this case from the beginning, I guess I single male in the U.S. who, of course, was a pedophile. And he took all sorts of video images of her being raped. He would tie her up to a tree in the backyard and sex assault her and then pass it around on the internet like baseball cards. And she and I went to Congress to try to beg for strict reinforcement of rules against child pornography and trading. Pedophiles trade these images online, again, like baseball cards. That's the kind of thing that's on the dark web. And Jessica Dubnack brought up something really interesting, Dr. Sherry Swartz, that a seemingly normal, average ex-wife slash mom would seek this out online. It's kind of hard to

reconcile these two images. You got a a soccer mom and you got a woman going online to order a hit exactly and and I would say I understand what she's saying right because on the surface she looks normal but this is not normal behavior because well yeah look I'm just a trial lawyer and I know that I'm coming to you for a little more, Dr. Sherry. Exactly. But, you know, and the really interesting part of this, I find many parts of it interesting. But she actually in one of the communications with the website owner, Bob Innes, says to him, it's kind of weird. Your company is not on the deep or dark web. So she knows enough to know about the dark web. And she says, I don't want to go to jail.

So she's showing us that from a psychological perspective, she knows the difference between right and wrong. Well, there goes your insanity plea. I don't want to go to jail for this. It's like, I'm not sorry I did it, but I sure as hell don't want to go to hell for it. So Jessica Jignak, joining me, WBJK, where does the case stand right now? So there was a plea that was struck in the case.

She pled guilty to two counts, solicitation of murder, using a computer to commit a crime, sentencing after the first of the year. I think it's a cap of nine years that she won't serve any more time than nine years. So we'll see after the first of the year exactly what a judge will decide in terms of uh you know sentencing here does this woman have children jessica you know it's very interesting we don't know a ton about her personal life uh not a lot of that was revealed and it moved a little bit fast just because of uh the

plea deal that was struck so it's it's unclear fast just because of the plea deal that was struck. So it's unclear. No one's come forward to myself or any of the local media because this is obviously a case we talk about it just much like everybody on the panel, just kind of shocked by it all. If I may, this is Tom Holt. One of the important things is that these hitman sites on the dark web, we don't really know how many people engage with them, but there have been a number of arrests over the last few years for people who are attempting to use these services. So it's a pretty frequent or persistent issue. The main thing is that most of those hitman providers are fake. They're just taking the individual's money and then they never

have to deliver. There's not a real expectation that you'll hear from your hitman that the act has been completed. So it's an easy scam to run. And it sets up a lot of opportunities for bad guys on the internet to make a lot of money with nothing that they have to actually deliver. Well, I can only hope that you're right. Well, we wait as justice unfolds. And as this case goes to sentencing, I'm watching you, Judge. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.