Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mike Williams: Hungry Alligators or Cheating Wife? Who Hid Florida Hubby in Watery Grave?

Episode Date: September 27, 2025

The infamous Tallahassee murder of Mike Williams is being retold in a new documentary series on Hulu. This four-part docuseries, "Mr. & Mrs. Murder," looks at the "twisted story" of two "close-knit couples" involved in the murder that took 17 years to solve. When police first found Mike Williams' clothes in a Florida lake, they speculated he had been eaten by alligators, but a deadly plot involving a cheating wife and a $1.75 million insurance policy eventually floated to the top of their suspicions. Nancy Grace explores Denise Williams' murder conspiracy with experts including Atlanta juvenile judge & lawyer Ashley Willcott, forensics expert Karen Smith, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, and Crime Stories reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It took 15 years of his mother begging for justice, literally standing at intersections with a poster stating, my son was murdered. Please help me. She called state reps. She called congressmen. She calls senators. She called everybody she could.

She contacted local law enforcement. She begged. She pleaded. She showed up. Nobody would listen to her. Her son disappeared. Okay? It took the mother fighting all those years for a real investigation to go down.

Then her son's body was fished out of a local. lake, it was determined to be a, quote, accidental drowning. Really? B.S. Because of Mike Williams's mother, Cheryl, a road to justice was paved. Denise Williams, Mike Williams's wife, and her lover, Brian Winchester, aka Mike Williams's best friend murdered him in the last days. Wait for it. The entire horrific saga unfolds on, of course, a made-for-TV murder series. Yeah, she gets her own series on Hulu.

called Mr. and Mrs. Murder. Oh, gosh. Talk about glorifying murder. Okay. You know what? This is what really happened. Don't fall for some glamorous actress and actor playing the part of the killers.

They are nothing but Satan and Bilsabub. This is what really happened. Segment two. Alton Rayneau and David Arnett were among the first law enforcement officer. to get a call about a missing duck hunter. What we thought had happened is that he possibly fell out of the boat or capsized. Early the next morning, there was a break.

Mike's boat was found. On board were some decoys and his shotgun, but no sign of Mike himself. What happened out duck hunting? Husband Mike Williams goes missing near Tallahassee. His body believed to be in the water, but oh, what a doubt. a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. Nancy Grace here, crime stories. Thank you for being with us.

Straight out to John Limley, crimeonline.com investigative reporter. John Lemley, how did this guy, an experienced hunter, fall overboard? I mean, what did his buddy say about how he fell overboard? It was a complicated story to say the very least as Denise Williams begins the tale to police. On the morning of December 16th, her husband woke up early, leaving their house on Centennial Oak Circle well before dawn, boat in tow to go duck hunting at Lake Seminole. This is a large reservoir just west, northwest of Tallahassee.

The couple actually had plans to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary that night in Appalachicola. At noon, Denise called her dad. Well, wait, stop right there. John Lumley, investigative reporter, have you ever been to Appalachicoa? I have not, actually. It is some of the prettiest beach I've ever seen in my life. Nobody seems to know about it. And in Apalachicola, I'm telling you, you can get the best oysters and shrimp at this little place called boss oyster.

And I have a very strong suspicion they may have been going there. to celebrate. I mean, Ashley Wilcott, this is on the panhandle, and it is beautiful. It's really the salt life. Everybody has a boat, whether it's a little skiff or a big, beautiful, expensive thing, everybody has a boat, even if it's tiny, and they are out on the water, they are fishing, they are living the salt life. I'm telling you, Ashley, Ashley, you know about the panhandle, right? Yeah, I've been, and I agree with you. It's absolutely gorgeous, and it's a whole different attitude

because it is the soul life. They are on the boat. They're enjoying life. They're out in the beautiful weather, beautiful beaches, beautiful fishing. Let me tell you a little story, Ashley. My dad, who, you know, don't tell my husband, but I still say he was my soulmate, is from a little city called, well, it's not really a city,

call hey Cody. Yes, it's really a place. Hey Cody. I think that's an Indian name. And it's near, to give you a perspective, it is near Mobile. Okay. It's near Samson, which is near Mobile. That's how you have to find it. So long story short, it's the Panhandle, Alabama, Florida Panhandle. And he grew up crabbing and fishing and I remember going to these exact spots as a little girl and my sister and I were supposed to

watch the crabs not get out of the net and of course they would and we'd run away from the crabs okay but the beaches are so deserted you could get them right back in that's where they were they were along the panhandle

but they were on Lake Seminole All right. Sorry, John Lamley. I digressed. Go ahead. Back to the story. Absolutely. Well, it was at noon that same day that Denise calls her dad to let him know that Mike had not come back. That's when her father hopped in his car, drove with Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, to the areas of the lake where they knew Mike Williams frequently went duck hunting. They were able to find his night. Wait a minute, wait a minute. The wife goes with the friend to look for him, but wasn't the friend with him when he fell in the water or no?

Well, this is later in the day that Brian Winchester goes with them with the dad, where they knew that he went duck cutting. And that's when they found the 1990. You're so not answering my question. I'm asking you, John Lemley, did the victim in this case go with his longtime high? school friend, Brian Winchester, duck hunting. Yes, absolutely. Why were they, because they were duck hunting out on a boat? Correct.

So you go out into the water to scare the ducks up out of stumps that are swampy area. Is that why they were out on the water shooting guns? Right. Usually go into an area that is camouflaged by a lot of vegetation. How do you know that, John Limley? You've never really struck me as a hunter or out in a swamp. I try to research well. Okay, so you don't know firsthand?

No, I do not. Okay, Bober, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I don't really see you as the type out in a... Uh-uh. No, not out in a boat and a swamp with a gun shooting at ducks. Yes, no, maybe, Dr. Boer. No, Nancy. Okay.

I'm probably not... I know suffice. I'm probably not... It's probably not me. Okay, all right. So I'm down to Karen Smith. Karen Smith, you actually seem the most likely to go duck counting of this bunch. Does that make sense to you what they're saying?

I have no idea. I have never duck hunted either. Okay. All right. So it's on me. All right. Actually, I guess, you know, there's a lot of stumps and growth and trees out in the middle of swampy area. So I guess the ducks are hiding there and you scare them up and shoot them.

That's my guess, okay? I didn't see a gun. or touch the gun until I was a prosecutor. Contrary to everyone's beliefs about the Southland. So they're out in a boat. Let me get back to you, Lemley. They're out in a boat. They're shooting ducks.

And this is what I don't understand. The high school friend, I mean, they're grown now. It's out fishing with, I mean, shooting with him. Why are you telling me, Lemley, that they go back to where they think he was? Doesn't he know where he was? Well, that's where the stories begin to get really tangled and confusing because one story is being told by Denise, another by Brian. He comes back into the city and is now helping the dad look for his best friend.

And so the timelines very clearly do not match up. Well, I don't see a problem so far. I don't even know what you're talking about John Lemley because you're saying The friend, Brian Winchester, goes out with Mike. They go duck hunting out in Lake Seminole. He falls overboard. The friend comes back and then the wife gets involved. I don't see the inconsistency with that.

Am I missing something? Because that's all I've heard from you so far. Well, the story at that point was that he didn't know fully what happened to his friend, Mike. they were looking for for what happened to it. He's sitting in the boat and then he disappeared. You know what that reminds me of, Ashley Willa Cut? That reminds me one of my favorite shows, Bewitched.

You know how she just disappear? But that was a TV show, Ashley. People don't just disappear. Yeah, see, you can tell already the story's a little flimsy, and he said, Something stinks. Who fell overboard and then he was gone. It stinks. Exactly right.

Listen to our friend at CBS 48 hours, Mike Slushinger talking with Altonaray Me and David Arnett. We've done a grid search, very slow, meticulous grid search, back and forth over the search area. And what began as a search and rescue soon turned into a search for a body. Cadaver dogs were brought in while teams scoured the murky bottom of Lake Seminole in a gruesome search for Mike's. body that was high intensity and low tech that was that was actually one of the poles and all you do is put it in the water and see if you feel anything if it's a log it's kind of a thump kind of a hard thump if it would have been a body you hit it it's kind of like a pillow did you feel something ever on the bottom that felt like a body never never maybe he just abandoned his family if

something like that that that was the strongest scenario of everything that we had it was did you believe that i mean did you think that was possible i thought that was possibility what did you think we knew mike had not run off i mean he loved his family and he adored his daughter adored her so mike did not run off this was not some elaborate ruse soon there was another explanation offered for why Mike's body could not be found that he had been snatched by an alligator. What happened to husband and father Mike Williams? He goes out duck hunting and never comes back. Was it an elaborate ruse to get away from responsibility? Was he held by his high school friend, Brian Winchester? Long time, best friend from high school. Or is he a fatality?

whilst his body at the bottom of Lake Seminole being stored by an alligator, dismembered. Joining me, Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer, you can find her at Ashley Wilcott.com. Karen Smith, renowned forensics expert. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and joining me right now, crimeonline.com investigative reporter, John Limley. So, John, the friend Brian Winchester, I would have hooked him up to a polygraph pronto to figure out if he helped Mike Williams, you know, take a powder, crap out on his wife and family. So the wife is in hysterics, Denise Williams. You can't find Mike Williams anywhere, not his

jacket, not anything belonging to him. Brian Winchester's the last one with him out in the middle of Lake Seminole on a boat. And then you get the final decision by the police. Well, an alligator dismembered him and is storing him for when he gets the munchies. And about, six months. So that's what we know. So John Lemley, what happens next? Did any part of the body ever surface or was there a siding of Mike Williams? There was no body parts or no sidings at all. However, within days, parts of his his clothing started showing up along the shore in different places. The initial search was handled in a way that they were viewing it as a missing hunter. And the agency handles those cases in a completely different way, focusing on search and rescue or recovery.

So in their minds, they're looking for a living person. But when these pieces of clothing began popping up, that's when investigators began to think they're dealing with something else. Well, not everybody bought the alligator story. Take a listen to Tallahassee Democrat reporter Jennifer Portsmouth reporting on Mike's mother. She never, ever believed that her son was in the lake. Not from day one? Not from day one. What did she think it happened?

She didn't know. All she knew was that her son was not in that lake. She just knew it. Knew it like a mom. It was something just deep inside of her. And she was absolutely. committed to finding out what happened to him. It's never out of my head.

Where is this child? He may be dead, but he's not in that lake. And if somebody did hurt my child, I want them found and I want them punished. Karen Smith Forensics expert, they have the boat. What, if anything, could that prove? Well, it could prove a lot of different things, Nancy. Did the boat have water in it? Was it completely dry?

You know, these small boats, they tip. They're going to have water in it. Also, evidence from the clothing, you know, alligators, if that theory pans out, they're not delicate eaters. Were they rits? Were there tears? Was the clothing indicative of a gator attack? Was there any other forensic evidence within that clothing?

You know, the boat itself was his wallet there? Was his information there? Was there other indicators? Was his gun still laying there? There was his gun missing if he was duck hunting. All of these things are going to play into a timeline and it's going to play into what really So as one piece of clothing after the neck starts floating up to the surface, everyone's looking for Mike Williams.

Did he just leave town or did an alligator devour him? How did he get in the water to start with? To John Limley, what can you tell me about his background? For instance, how did he meet his wife, Denise? Well, Denise and Mike were actually high school sweethearts. It's that great old story that we hear so often. And reality, you know, most of the time it's not true. In this case, it is. They met at North Florida Christian School in Tallahassee, and most details from their early lives to the couple's college days of Florida are interchangeable. Both were active in extracurriculars through high school. Mike was a promising football player, voted best personality. His wife, then known by the maiden name Denise Merrill, was a cheerleader for the North Florida Eagles. Former classmates and even

Then, current friends of Mike say he was very well respected, then at private school, then in business, where he excelled in both. It wasn't unlike Mike to step into the role of a protective older brother and to look over younger friends and family members. Mike and Denise graduated in 1988 alongside classmates Brian Winchester and his future bride, Kathy Aldridge. The two couples remained close as they each married in 1994 and had children. So those coot couples became very best friends. They go way, way back. Now, as a matter of fact, Williams, the victim, as a matter of fact Mike Williams and Brian Winchester hang on

duck hunting that day and then somehow he disappears everybody has to the lake together with their boat to start searching and they search in the dark hours and hours and hours until Winchester and his dad stumble on Williams' motorized

canoe and it was kind of up touching the lake shore they found his Ford Bronco, about 75 yards away, abandoned. And that's all they found. But eventually, after they searched, they found at the very bottom of Lake Seminole, his hunting license, his jacket, his waiters, investigators convinced Williams was eaten by

alligators. The brutal murder of a loving husband and father, Mike Williams, is now the subject of a brand new docket series called Mr. and Mrs. Murder. If it had not been for Mike Williams' mother, Cheryl, this would never have been uncovered. and Denise Williams and Brian Winchester would be skipping along their merry way, laughing at not only dead Mike Williams, but everybody else, including the justice system. This is what really happened. In the weeks and months that follow, nobody finds him, but then Denise, the wife, goes broke. Scott Dungey says now that Denise was a single mom, money was getting tight. helping her with some of the items that needed to be sold and to generate some cash until the

insurance money came. And there was a lot of insurance money involved. Williams had three policies worth more than $1.75 million. While the search itself is still going on, while he is still actively missing, they're still actively searching for her. She is going and filing a claim against his life insurance? According to Florida law, since there was no proof Williams had died, he would not be declared dead for five years. How much time did it take in this case? It took six months. That's because Denise's attorney argued to a judge that the waiters, the vest, and the hunting license were proof enough that Williams dead. The judge agreed and issued a death certificate. Cause of death

accidental drowning while duck hunting on Lake Seminole. Straight out to John Lemley investigative report. with crime online.com. John Lemley, the facts to me are very confusing. Let me understand this. Did he go out originally alone on the boat, or was he with the high school friend? They allegedly chose December 9th as the day Winchester would take Mike on a duck hunting trip, knock him overboard, and stage his death as a boating mishap. But the morning of the trip arrived and Mike called Winchester to back out. Winchester invited Mike to go on another duck hunting trip, but it seems no one else in Mike's family knew that he was meeting Brian. So it was in the early morning hours of December 16th that the two pals launched their boat out into Lake

Seminole. When they reached a landing down from where they parked their vehicles, Winchester got Mike to stand up, and that's when he shoves him overboard. After that, Mike takes off his jacket, takes off his waiters, was in an absolute panic. And Winchester says he was driving the boat didn't know what else to do and then ends up shooting his best friend. Winchester then allegedly dragged his friend's body to the shore, put him in the back of his Chevrolet suburban. He then pushed Mike's boat back out into the water and headed back to his house where his wife Kathy was still asleep. Kathy, of course, knows nothing about any of this. And Winchester says he got undressed, got back into bed and pretended that he just woke up. As usual, it's not all as it seems.

I want you to listen to high school friend Brian Winchester. We launched the boat. It was just like a hunting trip was supposed to be. The plan that was discussed and come up with was that he was going to be wearing waiters. And leaf was somebody falls in the water with waiters. you're going down. So we went out like we were going hunting. We got to the area where his waiters and jacket were found. I got him to stand up and I pushed him into the water. You are hearing longtime high school friend Brian Wynn.

Manchester describing, breaking down, crying, he pushed his friend from high school into the muddy waters of Lake Seminole. Ashley Wilcott, I mean, from the very beginning, his story didn't make sense to me. But to push somebody into the water, but you know what, Ashley, hold on, I want you to hear this. He got his jacket off and his waiters off. And he was in a panic, obviously, I was in a panic. I was in a panic. I was driving the boat. And I didn't, I didn't know what to do.

I ended up shooting him I ended up shooting him to Ashley Wilcott judge lawyer at Ashley Wilcott.com Ashley Wilcott

it's like he didn't do it himself well I ended up and I've seen that so many times when defendants give statements or they're stupid enough to take the stand

where they just go in the gun went off no you pull the trigger what happened to Ashley is he tricks his friend Mike Williams into standing up in the boat, okay, the little skiff. When he stands up, he pushes him in. The guy can swim.

He's an athlete. All right. Remember, captain of the football team, Hunter, Fisher, the works. The guy swims to a stump or something in the water, and he's not dead. He's not drowning, even with the waiters on. He gets his jacket off. He gets his waiters off. So what does Winchester do?

He starts circling him in the boat. Can you imagine Mike Williams clinging to a stump in the middle of Lake Seminole and his best friend is circling him in the water and finally gets close enough and shoots him multiple times? That's what happened, Ashley. That's exactly what happened, Nancy, and it's horrific. And think about this. There's also testimony by Mike that he had to take time to load his gun. Not by Mike.

I apologize by Brian Winchester. So Mike's in the water really literally hanging on to life on a tree, and he has to watch his quote-unquote friend load his gun to circle around to then shoot him. You know, it's to Dr. Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrist, this is not a stranger on stranger attack. This is his high school friend. They're grown now. They're both married with families and his high school friend, his best friend, for 20. 20 years, shoots him dead. How does that happen?

You know, Nancy, I don't know. I don't know how he could have thought he was going to get away with this. I mean, there's just a, you know, there's like a trail of breadcrumbs given these connections of all these people. It just seems silly to me that they thought the story would be plausible at all. You know, when you get right down to it, though, Dr. Bober, I've been asked so many times about motive. The state, of course, doesn't have to prove motive for murder.

but it always boils down. Money. Sex slash love. Revenge. Anger. It's always one of those four. I mean, it's got to be one of those four, Dr. Bober. Agree or disagree?

No, I totally agree. I think that pretty much encompasses all the motivations. Take a listen to our friends at 48 hours. She wrote the governor a letter every day for nine years. She was absolutely possessed with finding this out. What had happened to buy? Until God tells me in my heart that that child is dead. I cannot give up looking stuff.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. A brand new docu-series is handed over like a silver platter after Denise Williams and her lover, aka her husband's best friend. Wow, some friend. murder Mike all raised in deeply Christian households. What went wrong?

Wow. Long story short, I guess what you have to do to get a TV documentary is to murder your husband or something equally as horrible. Mike disappeared after going on a duck hunting trip, Lake Seminole.

That's a little north of Tallahassee. When he didn't return, a search ensued. His boat and car were found, but not his body. Believe it or not, many assumed, I wonder where this rumor started, that he had been eaten by alligators. Right, blame the alligator. But his mother, Cheryl, never believed it. Now, a series on Hulu.

Does it glorify the killer? Killers. This is what really happened. This man was murdered, and they blamed it on alligators for 17 years. Many a murder has been blamed on an alligator, but that's exactly what did not happen in this case. As a matter of fact, what we learned was happening is that after many, many double dates together, Brian Winchester falls in love with Mike Williams' wife, Denise Williams.

And on one of their double dates, they start kissing after a discussion about sex. Wow, what a surprise. So now we see it's not an alligator wanting a snack. It's a love triangle, Ashley Wilcott. Absolutely. Love triangle. Not only that, but it comes out. they were having an affair before they, before the victim was shot in the face and murdered.

As a matter of fact, they go on and they marry John Lemley, how long after Mike Williams is shot dead to the two marry? It was just a year and a half before they married. As the years dragged on, it looked like the mystery of what happened to Mike Williams might never be solved. If Brian and Denise knew anything about Mike's disappearance, they weren't talking and no one could. could make them. By Florida law, as long as they stayed married, neither could be forced to testify against the other. But behind the scenes, Denise and Brian's marriage was disintegrated. Wow, can you imagine that? So Mike Williams is gunned down. His widow, Denise Williams, gets that life insurance policy over a million dollars and marries the high school best friend, Brian Winchester.

You know, are you surprised, Ashley, that over, as time passes, the two start hating each other? The high school friend and the widow, who are now married and joined at the hip and bound together by murder. No, I'm not at all surprised. There is such a convoluted web, as you already alluded to. Oh, the Tangle Web we weave. And it was, there were multiple affairs by different partners in these two marriages that led to this. And Nancy, let me add this to your little food for thought. There were three life insurance policies that amounted to $1.75 million.

And guess who wrote, put together two of those policies? You got it. Brian Winchester. Okay, so John Lumley and investigative reporter, crimeonline.com, the two wouldn't talk. How was the case cracked? Well, a story emerges of Brian actually kidnapping Denise. This is such a bizarre twist. to the story. Denise and Brian separated in 2012, reportedly due to his sex addiction. She filed for

divorce in 2015. So he's a killer and he has a sex addiction. Absolutely. Okay. Go ahead. Denise tells the Leon County Sheriff's Office that on an August afternoon, the day when the appraisal of their home had been filed with court, she left her house to drive to her job at Florida State University. While she's on the phone with her sister, she sees someone climb over the back of her car. And it turned out to be Brian. He takes her phone away, begins yelling directions to her. She didn't comply until he shows a gun. She said later that he claimed that this was necessary since she was not taking his calls and was blocking his text messages.

Well, and the whole time she knows he's already killed once. Listen to Denise Williams in her own words. He's screaming, and I'm just like shaking, and he's telling me to stop behind that people are going to notice. Denise reported her kidnapping to the Leon County Sheriff's Office. I was like, are you planning on, you know, ending both of our lives today? Well, mine, I'm fading on mine. And then he would say, I want to kill my... He must have said a million times.

I want to kill myself. Brian Winchester was soon arrested and charged with the kidnapping and aggravated assault of his wife. I was just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying. And I was like, I know that you love him. Police quickly realized that the Rift and Denise and Brian's marriage presented an opportunity. So after she then, Karen Smith goes to police saying she's being kidnapped. I guess she had no idea that everything she was saying was breaking the husband-wife privilege. But how can you back up her story?

That's a really good question other than words at this point because they don't have forensics. They don't have the gun. All they have is what Denise is telling police at this point. So, John Lemley, after she goes in on the kidnap, the alleged kidnap, how did they get the truth out of her? Well, the case really, as you've mentioned, really cracked open with this break in their bond, the marriage bond, legally. And he began to tell investigators details as well. This is during the investigation. of the kidnapping. And in December 2017, Winchester was sentenced to 20 years in prison for

the kidnapping. Now, no mention was made of the Williams case at Brian Winchester's sentencing. However, there was some sort of deal that was reached that would reduce his sentence for information in the case, specifically what happened and where the... Well, hold on. Let's go to Ashley Wilcott, Judge and lawyer, didn't he get immunity? He sure did, Nancy. He did get a... immunity and they took life in prison off the table for the kidnapping charge he got both so how long is he's the sugar man so in order to testify against his new wife mike william's widow how much time is he going to get he gets none for killing he got immunity so he gets none for killing now the only caveat is

they said if there's any new evidence discovered outside of your version of what happened we could prosecute on the new evidence, but he told the whole shebang, the whole story, so I cannot imagine that happening. So, on 20 years, he'll probably do about 10. Yes. Okay. Man, you're not kidding. A kidnapping,

a murder, a cold-blooded murder. Denise Williams, the jury returned a verdict guilty on all counts. A TV series glamorizing a cold

hearted killer, Mike Williams' wife. What really happened is that his best friend, who was sleeping with his wife, takes Mike on a trip to Lake Seminole. They take the boat to a deep part of the lake. Winchester pushes Mike in the water with the hopes he would drown. He didn't drown. He had to kill him. The two killers stated they preferred the idea of drowning. because it would, quote, make them, quote, feel better about ourselves. If there was a chance, he can make it out of it. It will be up to God what happens, not us. It won't be murder.

It'll be an accident. Really, you're trying to drag God into this? Mike was an excellent swimmer, and he removed his jacket and waiters in the water and latched onto a floating tree. Winchester loads his gun, draw, He drives over to Mike and shoots him in the head. Yes, that's what happened. Then these two pieces of crap, Mary, after murdering Mike, we wait as justice unfolds.

Goodbye.