Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Millionaire's girlfriend found hanged in series of intricate knots. Murder or suicide?

Episode Date: June 6, 2018

The mystery of how Rebecca Zahau was hanged off the balcony of her boyfriend's Southern California mansion was investigated by police and the subject of a wrongful death lawsuit -- but the truth is still evasive. Investigators initially concluded the 32-year-old killed herself days after her boyfriend's son suffered a fatal fall in the same home, but a jury recently decided the boyfriend's brother was legally responsible for her death. Nancy Grace digs into the case with famed forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht, who investigated it for the civil lawsuit and Zahau family lawyer Keith Greer, who won a $5 million judgment against Adam Shacknai, the man who called 911 to report finding Zahau dead. They are also joined by Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Dr. Carole Lieberman -- author of "Lions, Tigers & Terrorists, Oh My! How to protect your child in a time of terror," and Crime Stories contributing reporter Ninette Sosa. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Use promo code Nancy for your special discount. That's promo code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. A gorgeous girl comes to the U.S. with her family from Burma to seek a better life, and they work like dogs to provide their children a better, a different life and education. So how did this beautiful girl, Rebecca Zaha, end up dead, hanging naked, her hands bound behind her in an intricate knot, a hood over her head, well, a sweatshirt over her head, around her face, her mouth gagged, hanging outside naked off a balcony. That doesn't sound like an accident to me.

But when you throw in millions and millions of dollars and influential families involved, everything seems to go sideways, right? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an incredible lineup. Keith Greer, the lawyer for that girl, Rebecca Zaha's family. A veteran trial lawyer. And with me, world-renowned forensic

pathologist, Cyril Wecht, who worked diligently for Rebecca Zaha's family, high-profile lawyer, Ann Bremner, forensics expert, professor of forensics, Joe Scott Morgan, Dr. Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist and author of Lions, Tigers, and Terrorist, Dr. Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist and author of Lions, Tigers, and Terrorists, Oh My, How to Protect Your Child, and Crime Stories investigative reporter, Nanette Sosa. You've probably already figured out by now I'm talking about the beautiful young girl, Rebecca Zaha, dead at the mansion of a millionaire, Jonah Shatnai. Now, two bizarre deaths shaking this wealthy, wealthy Southern California community and sending armchair sleuths into a frenzy. I just don't understand how the case was ruled accidental by sheriffs.

Let's start at the beginning of the story. It doesn't really start with the suicide, the alleged suicide of Rebecca Zaha. It starts with the death of a little boy named Max. Straight out to the Zaha family lawyer, Keith Greer. How does a story about a woman hanging naked outside off a balcony start with the death of a six-year-old boy? At that point in time, this was back in 2011, Rebecca had been dating Jonah Shackney, the millionaire. And he had, through primary, just signed six-year-old Max, a cute kid. We've seen a lot of videotape of him.

Talked to his mom, Nina, to Jonah about him. From all accounts, really a bright, energetic child. That morning. He's precious. He is. He's got a real personality. Do you have any children? Do you have children, Keith?

Several. I mean, at that age, at six, they're beautiful. They're still like little angels. It's before they really learn to talk back effectively. Go ahead. Very curious, very bright, very personable, handsome young man. But that morning, this is now two days before Rebecca's murder. Early in the morning, Jonas says he's at the gym working out.

Now, wait a minute. Jonas Shatnai is like a software multimillionaire, right? He's involved with computers. Medicis was his company at the time. Medicis is a pharmaceutical company that makes Restylane for injecting in face injectables. He made his money off getting rid of wrinkles with Restylane and something to do with acne medications. Right, like cosmeceuticals, so to speak.

So he's a multi-millionaire and Rebecca Zaha fresh off the boat from Burma with her family. Now in her, you know, she's in her late 20s, early 30s. She meets Jonah Shackney, the millionaire, and they start dating. That morning, he goes to the gym. She's alone taking care of Max and her own little sisters in the home. Okay. In the mansion.

It's huge. Go ahead. Yeah. So, yes. It's huge. Go ahead. Yeah. So, yes. So, like you mentioned, Rebecca's sister's visiting. They finish breakfast. Rebecca's sister goes up to take a shower. Rebecca's taking care of household chores.

And here's this huge crash and then comes into the foyer to find Max lying on the ground unconscious. The chandelier from the foyer falling down onto the floor also. He's not breathing. And so she screams for her sister to come help. She starts CPR. Has her sister call 911. They show up very quickly, but aren't able to resuscitate Max at that time. So wait, let me understand exactly.

With me, Nanette Sosa, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Nanette, six-year-old Max is there with the dad's girlfriend, Rebecca. One of the women, her little sister, is doing chores. One's taking a shower. They hear a bang. Max apparently has been playing with either a ball or the new puppy and somehow goes zooming over the second floor balcony of the staircase. I guess grabs at the chandelier and falls really to his death. He never comes back to. He falls face down onto the foyer floor, and the chandelier falls too. Nanette? Yes, that's exactly what happened. He was up on the second

floor. They believe he was running, possibly tripped, flips over this balcony onto the chandelier and comes crashing down. Again, the dad was at the gym, Rebecca Zahal's at the house along with the younger sister. And one of the telling things was when it happened, Rebecca Zahal was so nervous telling her sister, according to court documents that I read, that Dina's going to kill me. She's just going to kill me because of the accident that happened to Max. Well, you're right. Dina is little Max's mom. So 911 is called. They come get the boy. They race him to the hospital.

The dad is alerted, Jonah Shackney. The mom, Dina Shackney, they're divorced. They all race to the children's hospital and start a bedside vigil. Enter Shackney's brother. The brother comes from, I think it was Tennessee, Nashville or Memphis area. He's a tugboat captain. He's a fiction writer. He lives in his own world. He travels to California, lands that night.

They go out to dinner. He's there with Rebecca. She's alive and well. They're waiting on news about little Max. And then suddenly things take a sideways turn. We find out Max is not doing well. In fact, he's taking a turn for the worse. And Adam Shackney calls Rebecca or texts her and tells her what, Keith Greer?

Actually, that's where the evidence gets a little fuzzy and changed over the years. Because earlier that day, this is July 12th, the test came back regarding Max's condition of his brain. And he actually hadn't, according to those tests, gotten worse. He had, in fact, some improvement. He was not out of the woods. He had a terrible fall, some improvements. He was not out of the woods. He had a terrible fall. His injuries were devastating. But the turn hadn't technically happened yet. Although Jonah says that he spoke with the treating physician and the treating physician gave Jonah dismal news

that caused Jonah to think that things were much worse than initially anticipated. And Jonah then says that he left a message for Rebecca at 1248 a.m. that early morning of July 13th saying that, you know, Max may not ever walk or probably won't walk, probably won't ever talk again or something to that effect. Take a listen to exactly what veteran trial lawyer Keith Greer is talking about. Here is Jonah Shackney himself. He's on ABC 2020, and he's describing a voicemail he says he left for Rebecca Zaha that may have made her feel like Max's death was all her fault. Left her a voice message, pretty upset. All I can think is that Rebecca saw what had happened, felt responsible in some way, not that she did anything, but that she was entrusted with Max and that that was too much to bear.

You know, the decision to take a life is, it's a decision that isn't rational. And it's hard to sit here and rationally examine what might have gone through someone's head at a moment that they lost reason and did something horrible to themselves and it turns out horrible to a lot of other people. Rebecca Zaha found hanging dead naked outside the balcony of the home after that voicemail from Jonah. Why? What really happened? It was ruled a suicide, but Rebecca Zaha's sister, Mary, insists with Dr. Fields she does not believe Rebecca killed herself.

Listen to Rebecca's sister, Mary. You believe that your sister committed suicide? No. You believe that someone killed her? Yes. She was found hanging from a balcony with her hands tied behind her back, her feet tied, a t-shirt around her neck and in her her mouth and

Hung and with very elaborate knots. Yes tied Around and you're saying that that's not suicide that didn't happen. No, so what did happen? I Think someone or several people held my sister responsible for what happened to Max. When Max got injured, there are hospital records that said that Max might have been suffocated. As a mother or somebody related to Max, you can assume, okay, Rebecca was the caregiver. But the sad part is nobody really investigated what really happened. I mean, nobody knows who was in that house. That was Mary, Rebecca's sister, insisting.

Rebecca did not commit suicide. And now with me, the forensic pathologist, world-renowned, who worked for Rebecca's family, Cyril Wecht. Dr. Cyril Wecht has been on so many famous cases and became involved in this case as well. Cyril, it's so great to talk to you as usual. Cyril, when I first heard about the circumstances surrounding Rebecca being hung, you know, she's young. She's beautiful. She seemed in fairly good spirits in light of what had happened that evening. Her family says no way would she have done this, but that's all well and good. What convinced me at the beginning this was not a suicide was the elaborate steps she would have had to take to do it herself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Cyril, and then you explain it better than me, but I always tell it in regular people talk, Cyril. She tied somebody, tied a rope to the foot of her bed, of a bed, a guest room bed, a rope to the bed, carried the rope out to the balcony. All right. So she had this intricate set of knots, like crazy sailor type knots that are hard to tie with her hands behind her back. Her feet were bound to. She had her somehow with her hands tied behind her back, gagged herself. Guess she could have done that before. With something in her mouth. She had a t-shirt wrapped partially across her face.

She then, completely naked, which statistically never happens. Women never commit suicide naked, ever. I don't know why, they just don't. She hobbles out, jumps out to the balcony, gagged, bound, hands and feet, hands behind her, with a noose around her neck, somehow throws herself over the balcony to be found hanging naked by her loved ones. That's the layperson's explanation. Cyril Wecht, why was this not suicide? Well, Nancy, you've outlined it very clearly. And the bindings around her ankles were so tight that there were actually some superficial contusions of the calf muscles. Okay, right there, right there, Cyril. When you even talk about hobbling.

Cyril, stop. You said the word contusion. You're talking to me, Cyril. I'm just a JD. You're the MD. What's a contusion? A bruise. I know.

You're sharp. I know that. Listen, the picture, the scenario that you have clearly outlined, Nancy, is totally, totally incongruous with a suicide. The bindings were such that it would be impossible really to move, to maneuver herself five foot two inches over a three foot height reeling. How do you get up there with your ankles bound in that fashion and your wrist and so on? The point you make about nudity is right on target. So you are a sharp JD to know that, that women do not commit suicide nude, whether it's CO, shotgun, stabbing, hanging, or drugs. They do not commit suicide by hanging. Then you have a drop of 9 feet 2 inches from the balcony. If she hurtled over that in one fell swoop,

the force would have been tremendous, force equaling one-half mass times velocity squared. That body hurtling down, that is what we refer to as an execution hanging, where the head sometimes is pulled away, decapitation, partial decapitation, and certainly, at the very least, a cervical vertebral fracture or dislocation. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, whoa, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Listening to you and Joe Scott Morgan is just like drinking from the fire hydrant. I just can't take it all in that fast. Wait a minute, Cyril. Hold on. Now, hold on, Cyril. Let me gather my thoughts. Okay,

hold on. I think you said something about if she jumps, she commits suicide by jumping off that balcony. And you were quoting exact measurements, nine feet, six feet. I think what you're saying in regular people talk is if she had jumped off the balcony with a rope around her neck, it would have broken her neck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. At that velocity? Yeah, yes. You've got the first seven vertebrae coming down from the base of your skull,

the cervical vertebrae, the bottom one, the seventh is the bony protuberance you can feel at the base of your neck. And when you have that kind of an execution hanging, so to speak, then you have a fracture dislocation. Did she have that? No, she did not. Not only there were no fractures or dislocations, there were no hemorrhages. There was no damage at all to the posterior neck muscles and soft tissues. So here's my question, if I can even articulate it correctly.

What would be the difference if she threw herself over the balcony or if someone else threw her over the balcony. Either way, she would have the neck breaking of those, as you said, that bony bone at the bottom of your neck, you can feel. Back there, the cervical vertebrae would have been hemorrhaged or broken. That did not happen. So are you saying then that she was killed before she was thrown over the balcony? Yes. Number one, I believe she was dead in the final seconds of death, number one. And number two, I don't think that she was hurled over. I think that the rope from the bedpost that you referred to was being held in the assailant's hand,

and he was letting the rope down with her body incrementally. The big thing then, getting back to injuries now, see... So he would have killed her before, and then... Yes, she was... What were the knots, Cyril Wecht? What are the knots called? They're very intricately done knots. Well, I'm not the expert on knots. I'll let Keith refer to that, but you're quite right. They were intricate knots, and the tugboat operator, the defendant in this civil case,

quite familiar and expert in these knots. The big thing about the death is I believe it was due to manual strangulation. And the reason for that, Nancy, is that there was a fracture of the cricoid cartilage. The cricoid cartilage is the first ring of cartilaginous tissue at the beginning of the trachea, the windpipe. It is inches below the Adam's apple, the thyroid cartilage. Oh, my stars. In hanging, in hanging. Oh, my stars. In hanging cases.

Joe Scott Morgan, hold on, Cyril. I'm astounded at what you're telling me. Joe Scott Morgan with me, a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, I think what he's saying, okay, interpret for me what Cyril Weck just said. I think he's saying that on the front of her, below where the rope is, there is a fracture or an injury. That means she was manually strangled, not dead from the rope. Yeah, as Dr. Weck pointed out, he stated that there was no hemorrhage posteriorly, which means on the back of the neck, that on the anterior side or the front side of her neck, it would be consistent with someone having essentially C-clamped or throttled her throat prior to death. If I could just interject one little other possibility here.

For Pete's sake, please speak English. Regular English. I think that this may also, there may be to consider the possibility that this might be a perimortem event, which means in the throes of death, where she could have been strangled. She's in the midst of dying, and then slowly she is to guarantee her death. She's slowly let down off of the front side of this balcony, and this results in her death along with the manual strangulation. How is it that Joe Scott Morgan and Cyril Wecht say it so plainly, but it was still ruled an accident? And I mean, you guys are, Cyril, you're totally right on,

as you so, so often are. I don't see how it could be anything but not a suicide. I mean, the naked outdoors thing. And I'll tell you how I know that, Cyril. I once prosecuted a murder that was first deemed a suicide. And the woman was found shot in the head, which also rarely happens with women, that they shoot themselves in the head. But she was naked. I later found blood spatter under her pillow, Cyril,

which you know could not have happened. Blood spatter doesn't creep under your pillow. That means it was staged. So that's when I started studying statistics about suicide to prove this was in fact a murder. But Keith Greer, Zaha family lawyer, off a major victory in court. Keith Greer, didn't some neighbors hear a woman screaming around midnight?

Yeah, actually, about 1130 that evening, a woman two doors down heard what she said was a woman, not a young girl, not an old woman. She said a woman, she actually said actually in her 30s, screaming, help me, help me. She was sitting in her TV room, which is out in the front of the house with the window open and people outside making noise too. And when that help, help rang through the neighborhood, the people outside talking, stop talking, got quiet. She got quiet and stopped, turned her TV down to listen for more, to see if something else was going to go on. And after waiting for a while and not hearing any additional screams and the additional ruckus, she just went back to her TV.

The people outside started talking again. Okay, hold it right there, Keith Greer, high-profile Seattle lawyer with me, Ann Bremner, who appeared with me on 2020 on this case. Ann Bremner, what is wrong with rich people? I mean, they're all laid back in their plush den in their movie room, I guess, and they hear somebody screaming for help, and they go, oh, I guess it was nothing,

and they turn the TV back up. It's Coronado, Nancy, and things like this don't happen in Coronado. And I actually was in that home talking to her husband. And, of course, when they saw things happen with activity with response to, of course, this horrible tragedy the next day, they're like, oh, my gosh, put one and two together. So you get that sometimes. And, you know, there was so much in this case. It's like you said, this never happens.

Women don't hang themselves like this naked off a balcony and everything else. And also what's wrong with rich people is this case, when I was involved, we couldn't get anybody in the sheriff's department to change their minds about whether or not this is a suicide. That was their belief. Well, you said something else interesting. And I don't want to bore these high profile lawyers and these medical doctors. And we've got Carol Lieberman, who's a shrink, a psychiatrist. But can we just talk for real, just a moment, Ann? I mean, you know this went down in a mansion, the Spreckels Mansion. Now, that's where they lived. The Spreckels Mansion on Ocean Boulevard is near that historic hotel, Hotel Del Coronado.

And that is of the movie Some Like It Hot. Remember that movie with Marilyn Monroe and Jack Lemmon and I forgot who else. Anyway, it's super famous and it began to be called the Mansion Murder Mystery. Now, this mansion, I researched it for right now, belonged to a sugar baron who made his money off sugar, millions and millions and millions of dollars. And it was built out of this special, I think, limestone that actually has changed color over time. And it's a tourist. People drive by this mansion and look at it, not because of the death that took place, but because it's famous. It's huge. It's sprawling. It's gorgeous. When you say people in that neighborhood, man, you couldn't have said it any better than that. Long story short, nobody call

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Now, Cyril, I don't want to get your ire up, but don't medical examiners also look at the circumstances surrounding the murder? For example, I once prosecuted a woman found dead. The house burned down. Well, it struck me very odd that she had blows to the head. And I did a little digging. Took me about a month. But I started at the location of the house and I went to every dry cleaner for the radius of five miles out.

Because I noticed that the husband didn't have any suits in the home and he was a businessman. I finally found all of his suits and a lot of his shirts. He took them all to the dry cleaner the day before the fire broke out. Isn't that quite the coinkydink? So I looked at the circumstances surrounding the fire. He also removed all his family albums, by the way. Anyway, Cyril, what about that ridiculous scrawling on the door of the guest bedroom claiming she saved him? Can you save her?

I mean, when I heard that, it reminded me of that ransom note, air quote, air quote, in the JonBenet Ramsey case, which sounded like a fifth grade novelist had written it. Same thing here. Who would write, she saved him, can you save her? Well, a couple of them. The brother, the tugboat captain that flies in that night and he's staying in the home when Rebecca is killed, isn't he a fiction writer? Yeah. Well, two things about that. Keith Greer reached out for a question document examiner expert,

and that examiner found one or two features that fitted in with Adam Schachnay's writing, number one. And number two, the height at which that interesting statement was made was, I think, taller than the outreach of Rebecca Zahow's arm or certainly at the very, very top of an outstretched hand and not straight ahead. It was written above the doorway on the outside of the room. So that important. Cyril Wecht, you know what, if I were not already married, okay, when you talk like that, I mean, I can't tell you what it does to me. But I mean, Joseph Scott Morgan, don't you just love forensics? Aren't we just totally in the right field? I'm actually getting chill bumps on my legs right now. Just hearing Cyril Wecht explain why Rebecca Zaha did not write that. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. We can sit at his feet all day long and just bask in this, because I got to tell you, this cryptic message that's left behind, it does sound like something that would have emanated from, I don't know, maybe a junior high schooler. I'm not really sure. But, you know, the contention is that she would not have written a note like this,

according to her family. And I don't know that there's been any conclusive proof that it was written in her hand. And I think that that is telling here. Let me go to Dr. Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist and author of a brand new book on Amazon, Lions, Tigers, and Terrorists, Oh My! How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror. Dr. Carol, right now we really need a shrink because Cyril Wecht is a renowned forensic pathologist. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics. Ann Bremner, Keith Greer, who knows the facts like the back of his hand is a courtroom veteran.

But Dr. Carol, this note, this note, she saved him. Can he save her? Cyril has already explained why she could not have written that physically. But what does the note in its cryptic nature mean to you, Dr. Carol Lieberman? Good question. Presumably it means that she saved Jonah. And can Jonah save her? You know, I have a totally different, first of all, I don't think it was a suicide.

There's no way. That's not how women commit suicide. She would not have been naked. She wouldn't have hanged herself like that. That's not the way. But, you know, there's one other part that I think it all relates. You know, Keith Greer, this reminds me of why after one time, I never listened at the jury deliberation door again, because what they come up with is like, where did that come from? Let me first say there is not a shred of evidence linking Dina, who I have met and am very impressed with Dina Shackney. She was a loving, loving mother to Max. There's nothing whatsoever linking her or her twin sister, Nina, to the death, Rebecca's death. Now, I will tell you something freaky. Witnesses stated they saw

Max's mom bamming on the door the night Rebecca was killed. All right. Turns out it was her twin sister. I mean, can this plot get any crazier? But nobody ever came to the door, and that has been confirmed, and Nina left. All right? There's no connection. As a matter of fact, you first threw all of them in the pot together to stew, Keith Greer. But something made you drop everyone except the brother, Adam Shackney. Right now, I want you to listen to Adam Shackney as he calls 911 to report that he finds Rebecca Zaha dead. They're on emergency. What are you reporting?

Yeah, I got a girl hung herself in the guest house. It's on Ocean Boulevard across from the hotel, same place that you came and got the cave yesterday. Okay, sir, what is the address? I'm not sure. Uh, 19, I mean, the back house is 1928 something. Uh, I'm not sure. Let me call you back. Okay, sir. Is she still alive? I don't know. Okay. Are you alive? Okay, is she still alive? I don't think so. Okay, let me get the fire department. Sir,

hang on. Let me get the fire department on the phone. Okay, let me get the fire department. Hang on, let me get the fire department on the phone. Okay, what's wrong? She hung herself, man. I woke up. Okay, is this a house? It's a house. Okay, how old is she? I'd say about 30. 30? Okay. Where was the last time you saw her? Last night. Okay, it should be on health? I'm doing, I'm compressing your chest right now. Okay, hold on. What's your name? I'm Shatner. You just heard the brother who flew in, the tugboat captain, the amateur fiction writer,

who flies in the night that Max is killed, that Max is hurt, and stays in his brother Jonah Shackney's home with Jonah's girlfriend, Rebecca Zaha. Okay, a lot of things jumped out at me during that call. For instance, he refers to Rebecca Zaha as that girl, a girl, and the kid, and he doesn't know if she's dead because she's hanging there. All of that struck me as odd. To Keith Greer, could you please tell me why you included the brother, Adam Shackney, in your civil suit? Now this is after the sheriff rules. This is all just a big accident. She killed herself. It's suicide. Why did you go forward with a wrongful death action? Why did you drop the mom, Max's mom, out of it? Why did Jonah, the boyfriend, wasn't involved?

Why did you hone in on the tugboat captain brother, Adam Shackney? The key to the whole case is that saying on the door. She saved him. Can you save her? And when we went into we tried to figure out who got saved here and the medical records and the interviews with the family members are all consistent that Rebecca had saved Max. That morning when he fell, she was immediately there. She immediately started CPR. Those first couple of minutes are so important to the survival rate. She kept providing CPR until the first responders got there. So she had saved Max. And through the next few days, everybody felt that way. Nina testified and said at trial that Jonah had told her, and this is the evening she was murdered, Jonah had told her

earlier that evening, the next time she sees Rebecca she needs to get down on her knees and thank her for saving Max because if she hadn't have been there Max wouldn't have any chance at all and so since she saved him, she saved Max,

there's only a handful of people that knew that Rebecca saved Max. It would be immediate family members who are aware of it, first responders, and healthcare providers at the hospital. So we ruled out first responders. We ruled out healthcare providers at the hospital. That left us with a half dozen members of the family that were aware of Rebecca saving Max. And in the beginning, we had three of those people at the mansion that evening. Hold on, hold on. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I've got a flow chart in front of me. With me, veteran trial lawyer Keith Greer, who actually represented Rebecca Zaha's family. That was a fight to the finish, Keith Greer, and you were triumphant.

Keith Greer, trial lawyer. Keith, you're saying that the phraseology on the door, which I think was witnessing some, like, pain or something. Black acrylic paint. Black acrylic paint. Who would write that on their door? Anyway, hold on. I got a lot of thoughts colliding in my head. It said she saved him.

Can he save her? Can you save her? On the guest bedroom door in which Rebecca Zaha's rope, her hanging rope, was tied to a bed strung across the room and over the balcony to weight her down. Okay. So you're saying process of elimination, who knew that somebody saved somebody? Only a few people, the family and the first responders. So you did process of elimination. Several of those people were at the hospital all night. Dina Shackney, Max's mom, Jonah Shackney, Nina was back and forth, I think, to the hospital, the twin sister.

Okay. The first responders, I don't think they snuck in the house and did it. Okay, take it from there, Keith. Yes, initially we had an eyewitness that put Nina Shackney at the mansion that night. And he was very adamant, spoke to to him several times he was sure it was not nina the twin sister because they're not identical twins um and so he and he said it was definitely dina so i had nina there at the scene she fits the the was part of that group that knew that rebecca had saved max um and the motive here you know know, with being, you know, jealousies perhaps with Rebecca,

perhaps blaming Rebecca for Adam's fall in the first place, you know, in a fit of rage. We're thinking we've got a very upset mother with a motive there at the scene. Nina admitted she was there. She said that she had gone by that evening, you know, to see Rebecca. And we had Adam there staying the night. And so initially we had all three of those folks there. And based on the facts we had attempted to put together the scenario of what

happened, how this all worked out. We originally thought the confrontation. The first confrontation was between Dina and Rebecca. And then Adam awoke and joined in, and the three of them did this together. Okay, that's a little far-fetched to me that you think you're going to get Max's mom and her twin sister and the tugboat captain brother to all agree to commit murder and fake it to look like a suicide and not a single forensic clue,

such as fingerprints, fibers, nothing like that was found to point to any of them in the murder room. But what can you tell me? I know this is a crazy question, but why does Rebecca Zaha's menstrual cycle have anything to do with this? The evidence that Rebecca left behind was key to putting this all together. In the master bedroom shower, there is a drop of what's believed to be Rebecca's blood. The police did not test it to confirm it. It was assumed it was her blood. So that evening, we believe that the whole process started when she was showering. She turned off the shower long enough for a drop of menstrual blood to drop on the bottom of the shower. Then somehow she winds up on the other side of the house and up a half a floor in the guest bedroom area with a bath towel on and her cell phone.

And right at the entrance to the bedroom, to the guest bedroom, there are four more drops of menstrual blood on the floor, on the carpet, right next to where the towel that she was wearing is dropped on the floor, piled up right next to these four spots. So we interpret that as being she stood there and confronted Adam long enough to have the four drops hit the floor. Then things went south and she attempted to escape, dropped the towel, screamed for help. That was heard by the next door neighbor. And at that point in time, she was bas. That was heard by the next-door neighbor, and at that point in time she was bashed on the back of the head four times, rendered at least partially unconscious, and then the scenario continued from there.

Do we have abrasions on the back of her head? No, she has very, very thick hair because she had very thick hair, which would inhibit the superficial injuries. We think she was hit after she attempted to escape and screamed for help and he needed to shut her up. He panicked. He stated in an interview that he had a history of panic attacks. He stated it was in airplanes.

But it sounds like it was a panic reaction as she's sprinting away from him, screaming, and he hit her from behind on the right side, upper right side of her head to shut her up. Was there any physical evidence of an injury on the right side of her head? Yeah, four subgallial hemorrhages all on the upper right side of her head. That's not really consistent with a hanging. So you're right. What about a knife found with her? First of all, yes, no, Joseph Scott Morgan. Can forensics experts tell the difference between menstrual blood

and free-flowing blood like from a cut? Yes. Okay. Well, I can't believe you answered it in one word. Okay, I thought that was kind of a dare. Okay. Well, I can't believe you answered it in one word. Okay. I thought that was kind of a dare. Okay. Hold on. Wait a minute. Don't you dare me. Yeah, you showed me. Okay. So we know that is menstrual blood, four drops on the... She had an IUD. And so it is, you know, it's blood from her vagina. We know that that's the source and if it's full menstrual

blood it was never tested they tested and confirmed it was her blood the only source of blood is the blood from her vagina which was confirmed on autopsy that she had blood pooling in her vagina but i but it was never tested to determine, you know, was it full menstrual cycle blood? Was it something related to the IUD? All we know is it was blood coming from her vagina and there was no trauma, no trauma. But there's a difference between that and free flowing blood. Let me ask you another question. Keith Greer, what about a steak knife covered in blood? What can you tell me about that? Where was it and where did the blood come from? Yeah, this was the most shocking piece of evidence in the case.

And we didn't figure it out. In fact, I didn't figure it out. It was our blood splatter expert, Lisa DeMaio. She looked at the pictures of a steak knife, just a standard table steak knife. It had a black handle with three rivets on the handle. And the police had noticed that there was the bottom rivet closest to the base of the handle was red. On both sides was red. And they thought it was blood.

They tested it. It was, in fact, blood. So the sheriff had actually confirmed there was blood on the rivets on both sides of the handle. But nobody took it a step forward to see if there's blood on all the way around the handle. And our expert, Lisa DeMaio, said, we need to go down to the evidence locker and look at this. And we did. And when we pulled it out and she showed me what she found, my stomach just flipped because it was clear that that, you know, had blood all the way around it. And the only source of blood being her vagina means she was sexually assaulted with the handle of that steak knife. And, and that's, I mean,

I think anybody thinking about suicide, if they had any doubt at all, that would throw it over the top. There's also, there's no fingerprints on this knife anywhere. So whoever inserted that into her wiped the prints off and uh it just it seems beyond reason that a woman would uh violate herself with the handle of a knife you know and then and then wipe it off um along with all the other i'm I'm just so overwhelmed. Ann Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer, that this is, as of right now, officially is still deemed a suicide. It's just outrageous and unbelievable.

There was so much there to say. It was something else. And all they needed to do, Nancy, as you well know, is just investigate the case. I mean, why are families put in positions like the Zahal family of having to investigate this case themselves, civilly? And it's finally we have justice, but it shouldn't have had to be done this way. No, it shouldn't. Now they do need to reopen the case. And to you, Joseph Scott

Morgan, you're on the outside looking in as am I. With this evidence, don't you think it at least warrants a grand jury investigation for criminal charges? Yeah, absolutely it does, Nancy. There is, you know, obviously in the civil context, there is a preponderance of evidence, but I could go further than that and state that the evidence that we see before us, it would give a reasonable person pause to consider everything, and certainly not the first thing that you're going to jump to is going to be suicide. It's beyond the pale in all of my years of experience. And there's been other people that have said this about this case. I have never, ever worked a case in New Orleans or Atlanta or been involved in a case doing a follow-up investigation involving these sets of circumstances

surrounding a suicide involving a woman. This thing is so complex that it is mind-blowing that someone in the forensic community that is working for a governmental agency or law enforcement wouldn't want to look into this further. Take a listen to Rebecca's sister, Mary Zahal Lunar, speaking after Keith Greer wins this incredible civil verdict. She demands justice. Listen. No matter what happens, Rebecca, I can't get her back.

Our family can't get her back. But hopefully people will know that she didn't commit suicide and she was murdered and she doesn't deserve to be treated the way the sheriff's department treated her. What would you say to the sheriff for today? I would like him to be honest, to be truthful, and to reopen the case and investigate it as a murder. Now, the tugboat captain brother who was alone in the home that night at the mansion with Rebecca Zahout, now dead. Adam Shackney has his own response. Listen to what he says after the civil verdict against him won by Keith Greer.

Here's Adam Shackney. I'm still the same person I was in 2011 when this happened, in 2013 when they filed the lawsuit that I thought, well, I just wanted to turn around and sue for defamation because I don't think you should be able to say something like that in public about somebody for 50 bucks or whatever it costs, completely made up. But hopefully it's eventually going to come back to, after a reversal, a defamation suit, a malicious prosecution suit, all stuff like that. But like I said, I'm not worried about it.

I'm proud of the case we made. A lot worse things have happened to a lot better people, so this is nothing to me. I'm disappointed, but I got plenty of fight in me. I got plenty of health. I got Mary. I got lots of good friends. I got family. And whoever's worried

about me from, you know, family and everything else is just, this ain't nothing. Adam Shackney, the tugboat fiction writer brother, is not a person of interest. He is not a suspect. As a matter of fact, this case is still officially a suicide. But let me ask you, Keith Greer is a Howe family lawyer. Has Mr. Shackney, Adam Shackney, the tugboat captain brother, has he filed a defamation lawsuit? No. As I commented and retort to that, there's no such thing as malicious winning. You know, that's in order to have any type of claim, there has to be a proof. And sure, he has to come back and say he didn't do it. You know, there's no judgment against him that he prevails um you know when the when you file something with

court it's a privileged document those are privileged statements the jury looks at them makes a ruling uh when you win um there's no cause of action you know he's just blowing smoke um kind of went off on a rant. I doubt, I doubt if his attorneys were very happy he was doing that. Why do you say that? He just, you know, he pushed his attorney out of the way and went to the mic. I saw the look on Dan Webb's face.

I think they did a good job of keeping him under control during the trial. It seemed like there was always somebody with him. He was always dressed nice. He was, you know, really quiet. And then after the verdict came back, you know, we showed up in jeans and a T-shirt and banana yellow tennis shoes and spiked hair and started spouting off what appeared to be, to me anyway, just out of control. I think we saw the true Adam. I think we saw the true Adam at that point in time. After Keith Greer wins a civil suit in the Rebecca Zaha case, the San Diego County Sheriff at the Coronado mansion of this beautiful young girl, Rebecca Zaha. Is it real, Keith? Are they really reopening the investigation?

I think it is real. I think they have to. I think with the public scrutiny that's going on here, they don't have any other choice. And I think that public scrutiny will also result in them making the right choice. Because I think if they came back and said, no, we're holding by our decision that it's suicide, I think the public outcry would be incredibly loud. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. world. It's time you take back the power by using a new website called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder

searches millions of public records, assembling the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.