Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Missing Audrii, 11, Tied to Rock 'Swirling' in River, PANTS FOUND at RIVER'S EDGE

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

More details are emerging in the death of 11-year-old Audrii Cunningham. Police reveal that the girl's body was tied on a rope which was then tied to a rock. Today, Nancy talks to the searcher who found the body's location using sonar and reveals that some of the girl's clothing was found on the river's edge.  Also, hear from the Exxon clerk who called 911 after recognizing that Don Steven McDougal had been a customer.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Leslie Gaskins - Exxon employee who saw the suspect the morning of, and called police Lana Shadwick – Attorney, Former Harris County Judge and Prosecutor; Legal Analyst for Breitbart, Texas; Facebook: @TXBoots Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room” Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” X: @JoScottForensic Lee Reiber - Mobile Device Forensic Expert, CEO of Oxygen Forensics, Inc.; Author: "Mobile Forensic Investigations;" Host of the Podcast: "Forensic Happy Hour"  Tim Miller - Founder, Texas Equusearch Andy Kahan  - Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston Bob Price - Associate Editor and Sr. News Contributor for Breitbart Texas; X: @BobPriceBBTX/ FB: Bob.Price.Texas See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did 11-year-old Audrey Cunningham ever have a chance? Her mother is now posting heart-wrenching messages about how she, quote, failed her daughter. The father had her living in his home with his grandparents and in the backyard is a Nazi Aryan brother covered in hate tattoos who would take her to school alone in the car with him with a sex offense. In the last hours we learned that this 11 year old little girl, do any

of you have little girls or little boys that are or were 11 years old? This little girl's body was weighted down with a rock tied by rope to her body. Who could do that to an 11 year old little girl? I mean take a look at this guy. Would you leave your child alone with him? Much less put her in the car with him? Give him access to your home with your child asleep in the bed around him. I mean, think about it. One of his last offenses on his rap sheet. Oh yeah, he got a sweet plea deal.

Didn't have to register as a sex offender and walked free over and over and over and over and over. But this time he had access to a home and was caught in the bed with a minor child, a girl, and had taken off her underwear and PJ bottoms. Now he has access to Audrey and now Audrey is dead at the bottom of a river weighted down by a rock. Oh, yeah. Texas, it's on you. You have the DP death penalty needle. You're going to use it or you can let him somehow slip out of this, too, because all of his other crimes, most of them, were in Texas.

And he walked. He skipped out of the courthouse, free as a bird. He ran, hopscotched, out of the jail each time. And now Audrey is dead. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Wow. What we have learned overnight by taking a long, hard look at a formal affidavit used as an arrest warrant. Wait till they perform those searches. But

right now, joining me in addition to an all-star panel to make sense of the evidence as we know it right now, this lady is a hero. The lady that called police when she spotted this Nazi Aryan brother, Sex Perv, who I believe murdered an 11-year-old girl, Audrey. I believe he raped her. And I believe he weighted her body down with a rock and threw her body in the river. Joining me right now is Leslie Gaskins. She is an ex-employee. And she's the one that called 911 and landed his rear end behind bars.

Of course, then he started lying and lying and lying, but despite his lies, police managed to find Audrey's body. Leslie Gaskins, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. Miss Gaskins. Yes, ma'am. Tell me what happened when you see the defendant covered in all his tattoos. I don't know if you could see his swastika or not, but tell me what happened when he came into your Exxon. It was just a few dollars in change for gas. It could have been a couple of beers. I'm not real sure because I didn't know that he was significant, that he was so ugly. I keep saying that.

He's just so ugly and so creepy looking that you just don't forget his face. And it just, I don't know, his face just stuck with me. And then the next day when I saw his mug shot and they said to call if you had seen him i called right then didn't even hesitate what uh when he came in to your exon are you saying that it was either for gas or beer yeah it was yes yes ma'am. And I'm curious. Hold on, let me get it right, Pam. What time of the day did he come in? It was after 9 o'clock, I believe. I'm not real sure. 9 a.m., 9 p.m.?

A.m., a.m. I worked the day shift that day. Question, was this on February 15, the day Audrey went missing? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I worked the day shift that day. What time do you go in?

I go in at 5.15 in the morning. So you're there first thing in the morning. Now, February 15, I believe, was a Thursday, correct? Yes, ma'am. So you're there at 5 a.m., 5.15. You get everything opened up and ready. What were you doing? Were you behind the counter when he came in? Yes, ma'am. There was a line of people and he was just in the middle of the line. Did he smell of alcohol or anything else? Pots? Cigarettes? No. No, I didn't notice and he wasn't dirty like they said

when he went to the mechanic shop. He wasn't dirty and all that either. So this is 9 a.m. I'm trying to place that time in the line of events that we have so far. Do you recall what he was wearing? I don't. I don't. What about him stands out to you? His face, his beard, his eyes.

He has like a crazy eye. Yeah, does one look one way and one look the other way? It kind of does, just him. I've tried to figure that out because in some pictures, they look like they're both looking at you. And in others, one looks like it's looking off. Yes, yes. And I think he was kind of a regular here. I think I've seen him in here before.

What's your recollection? Because I remember his eyes. The eyes, yeah. The first time I saw his eyes, they're very light blue and they're piercing and there's just something off now could you see all of his tattoos no ma'am i don't think i could i think i could see the like a little bit around his neck i think he had a t-shirt on he didn't have a tank top did you by chance see his hands? Yes, but I really didn't pay that much attention. Darn. I'm wondering if there were any

scratches on his body, on his neck, his chest, his arms, his hands. Did he have on a long-sleeved shirt? No, I don't think so. Did he say anything to your recollection? Just whatever he was getting, you know. It's 4.33 and gas keeps sticking in my head. Okay, so. 4.33 and gas. At that time, you noticed him and you remembered him because of his eyes and his tattoos. And what happened next? He leaves.

You don't think anymore about it until when till i saw him on the on the on facebook the next morning what did you see his his mugshot saying if you'd seen him he was the last thing with Audrey if I had if you had seen him uh please call and so I did you do know that by you calling that's how police found him right yes ma'am are you concerned at all about the possibility of him getting out on bond no I would hope not. I would hope not. Please not. Would it concern you if he gets out on bond, if he's walking free? Yes. Yes, definitely. Yes. Why? Because he's dangerous. He's crazy. He doesn't need to be out.

And you're a witness. Yeah. Did you ever meet or see Audrey or her father or mother or grandparents? I know my daughter is friends with Audrey's mother. And we've known Audrey when she was smaller, but not seen her here recently. Why wasn't the mother living with her? I have no idea. I have no idea. Because it sounds like to me,

she was in a worse situation than if she would have been with her mother. You know, does the mother live in town there? She lives in Livingston, I believe. OK, with a population of a little over 5000 people, how far away could it be? Do you know how the dad knows the perpetrator? Friends. If you look on their face on his Facebook, they have he's been tagged in posts of the dads for

years, it looks like. Like they were friends. So they go way back. Yeah. And like the grandma I think it was posted a picture where he went on vacation with them to Florida last year. Yeah, I saw that. Isn't that crazy?

That is just, I just don't understand. I guess that's one word for it. You are hearing the voice of Leslie Gaskins, the Exxon employee who saw the suspect on the morning that Audrey goes missing and called police. Ms. Gaskins, thank you. I hope you are prepared to testify. Yes, ma'am. Absolutely. I will do my part.

He shouldn't have never been out anyway. Not with his rap sheet. He should have never been out. Ms. Gaskins, thank you so much. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but overnight, this is what we learn. Listen. According to court documents, Don Stephen

McDougall used a rope consistent with a rope seen in his vehicle two days earlier during a police traffic stop to tie a large rock to the body of Audrey Cunningham to weigh it down in the Trinity River. Investigators were able to locate the body of Audrey Cunningham in the Trinity River by using cell phone records and video analysis, but they also needed help from the Trinity River Authority to lower the level of the water on the river so divers could find Audrey. After removing her body from the Trinity River, Sheriff Byron Lyons said she was taken to the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office in Houston to determine the cause of death. Joining us, an all-star panel, but first to Bob Price joining us, associate editor, senior news contributor, Breitbart, Texas. Bob, thank you for being with us. Tell me about the rock that was used to weight down this 11-year-old girl's body. So Nancy, I had suspected that he had used some kind of a weight or device to tie

her down. I asked Sheriff Lyons about that during the press conference on Tuesday when they announced that they had found her body. And at that time, he did not want to disclose the information as to what he had used to weigh her down. But he did not deny that she had been held underwater by some type of apparatus and stuff. So now we know that there was a rope used, a rope that was seen in his vehicle two days before during a traffic stop, which again reemphasizes that the avoidability of this tragedy, had there been an arrest warrant for Mr. McDougal on an aggravated assault where he stabbed an individual back in August and was identified by the victim as the attacker

in this assault, there would have been a warrant for him during that traffic stop and he would have been in jail two days before her death. You know what? I've been torturing myself all night long about coulda, shoulda, woulda. We have been looking at the affidavit attached to a warrant and gleaning information about the death of this 11 year old girl and what was transpiring during the time after daddy leaves the house and the defendant is there alone with the little girl. Joining us right now, Tim Miller, the founder of Texas EquiSearch, who actually went and searched, searching the waterways,

trying to find Audrey. Tim Miller, thank you for being with us. You've done so many water searches. Tell me about this search and the discovery of her body. When you were using sonar, looking through the water there, which has a pretty good current to it, could you tell at that time she was weighted down? Well, Nancy, when we got involved in that, the sheriff actually called me Friday and said he needed our help and we had many many ground searches. Saturday we found something right along the shoreline which ended up as being evidence. So where that was found I decided I need to start sonar. Okay wait wait wait are you talking about the Hello Kitty backpack? No something else not the backpack. What? We found something right at the edge of the river.

I don't want to disclose that now. Was it a shoe? Was it clothing? It was clothing. So I decided I wanted to start soldering. Was it a girl's clothing? Yes, ma'am. And it definitely is evidence.

It 100% is evidence. I mean, hold on just a second. Hold on just a second. Joining me, Director of Victim Services there in Texas. Joining me out of Houston, Andy Kahn, longtime colleague. Andy, the girl's clothing, he obviously, the girl was sex assaulted. Why would she not have clothing on? Why would her clothing be separate from her body? You know, I mean, this guy needs to be on death row. It's not the first time, Andy, what in the hay is going on in Texas?

This guy had offense after offense after offense. And now I'm hearing from Tim Miller. Article of clothing found at the edge of the river. And Tim Miller, who, by the way, is a crime victim himself. His daughter was murdered. Is out there and sees this. What's going on you know nancy there's a reason we have the death penalty in the state of texas and mcdougall is now the poster boy why we have no no no you can blow your horn about texas injustice but why was this guy have you

why was he out free he had already crawled in between the sheets with another little girl and taken off her underwear and pjs he's got one offense after the next after the next after this the man is using meth for pete's sake i mean the nazi tattoo alone should have gotten him kicked off the property that didn didn't work. But that said, don't start preaching to me about Texas as a death penalty. I want to know what this guy's doing out walking around to start with. The state of Texas failed 11 year old Audrey Cunningham. No ifs, ands, or buts. Blah, blah, blah. The state of Texas failed this 10 year old-old girl back in 2007 who he evidently was trying to sexually assault, and he got a sweetheart deal.

He got sweetheart deal after sweetheart deal. How did you know she was 10 years old? I didn't know that had been made public. Yes, it is. I'm looking at it right now. Yes, it is. We were trying to protect her identity. Yes, I will send you. Another 10-year-old girl. 10-year-old girl. Very similar it is. We were trying to protect her identity. I will send you another 10 year old

girl. Very similar to Audrey. Correct. Very similar. And now this, I mean, you know what, Andy Khan, my dad, God rest your soul, daddy would have killed killed this guy if he had tried to get in bed with me or my sister or brother. I don't understand why he got a cheap plea. And on the cheap plea deal, Andy Kahn, he didn't even say I'm guilty. They let him plead no lo contendere. No. He wouldn't even admit what he did. I mean, talk about a sweet deal.

Yeah. Texas Justice, my rear end. And they cut it down to enticing a child, which isn't even an offense that you have to register for. And that brings us to what we're going to be doing next legislative session. And I made a promise and I'm going to continue their promise that we are going to name a bill. Oh, please. You know, you think I trust a bunch of politicians in a room together? No. I trust me. I mean, I trust you, Andy. I know you're going to do the right thing. And I'm going

to make it happen. Okay. Can I get to legislation? Let me guess. It's going to be called Audrey's Law. Yep. That's great. I don't want the child dead so she could have a law named after her. I want her alive. I can't have what I want. Now the only thing I can get is a death penalty. That's the only thing we can work toward now. But that said, you can tell me about your legislation later. And don't worry, I respect what you're doing. I value what you're doing. I want you to do it, but I guarantee you if you leave one little crack in that legislation, some defense attorney is going to find a way around it. So it won't apply to their

client. Think about that. Tim Miller, can I get back to the search? Yeah. You just got me so upset thinking about her being separated from her clothes now i don't know what piece of clothing it is it could have been a shirt it could have been her pants it could have been her underwear but when you said it's definitely evidence that makes me think it could have been her underwear well it was definitely clothing and it's definitely hers. So I decided to start doing side scans. Was it her pants? Yeah. Why does an 11 year old girl not have her pants on? He raped her. He raped her. This animal raped this 11 year old girl. Okay back to the search. Guys we're talking about sonar.

Think about you've seen if you haven't gone fishing yourself you've seen it on the fishing channel you can't miss that. It's 24 7 365 people are fishing. It looks like a blurry iPad screen. They even have you can hold in your hand the size of a cell phone. And it looks gray, but then you can see black spots. Some are a lot more sophisticated, but those spots are objects in the water. Now, Tim Miller has state-of-the-art.

Okay, tell me what happened to you. Well, I started selling in that area, and of course, the river was high. The current was strong, and it's like, oh, my God, is she going to wash away or what? Sunday, I got what I thought was... Well, what did you see that made you know it was Audrey? Well, on Sunday when I sonared, I didn't know it was Audrey. The conditions were the worst you could ever imagine with sonar. I didn't know if it was Audrey. The conditions were the worst you could ever imagine with sonar. So I went back to the same exact spot and the image I got, I couldn't get it again. I couldn't get

it again. I literally went through that area more than 80 times. And then I got another image and I said, oh my God. I said I could make out legs and arms. Now hold on, Tim Miller. You know we don't say OMG on CS Crime Stories. But go ahead. What did it look like, Tim Miller? How could you tell that it was a child versus something else?

No, I could make out the body. So I went in, but it wasn't as clear because of the currents because of where it was. It was difficult at best so that I kept sewn out and sewn on. And then Monday I sewn out again and got... Tim, what went through your mind when you spotted that? You must have just listened to yourself. I knew it was her but I couldn't repeat it. And it's like, how come if there's something there, it's got to stay there? And so I got with the divers on Monday and the Texas Rangers. I showed them the image. Did you go down yourself?

No, I didn't dive. I don't even take a bath, but I'm pretty good at show diving. Let me ask you a question. So you guys are diving in a fast current in the river correct well on monday when i showed them the image and we all got together they said oh my god i think you're right i think it's a body we have to dive on it well the currents were so strong and the river was high that they could never get to that image. So then they decided to shut the dam.

That's hard, man. I've done dives in fast currents and rivers, and it's not like on TV. It's really hard to do that, much less to get. Was she all the way down at the bottom because of the rock? She was tied off to that rope. She was tied onto the rope, and at the other end of the rope was a rock? Yeah. And so then her body was just...

Or was the rock on her body and tied to her body? No, it was on a rope. Okay, question. Go ahead. So the body, Audrey's body was not on the bottom of the river, on the riverbed. The rot was on the riverbed, and she was in the water. She was in the water. And so she was just swirling and swirling in there,

and that's why I could never pick that same image up at the same exact spot. But I'm going to tell you the best thing he did, Nancy, the best thing he did was tie her off and weight her down. Because if he wouldn't have done that and she would have floated, that current going four miles an hour in 24 hours, she would have been 96 miles away. Just like Natalie Holloway. The best thing he did for the search efforts was to go ahead and wait her down. Otherwise, again, in that current, I just think that she would have popped up at night when nobody was there.

In 12 hours, she would have been 50 miles away. So, you know, it was a blessing in disguise. So, yeah, when I got that image again, they dove on Monday. They could not even get to it because of the currents. They decided to shut the dam, let the water go down, and the next day when I got in there, they found her. Tim, what do you mean when you say she was swirling and swirling? Well, if you can imagine in a current, and there's a big swale there, it's between the railroad bridge and 59 South Bridge, which is close together. So the water coming around them pilings and stuff just created a huge

eddy. So she was down there just basically almost going in circles and moving around and moving around. And that's why it was so hard to get her at the very same location because when a body's at the bottom, it's going to stay at the bottom until it starts gassing up, and then it'll start moving. So I would go back to the same exact spot and she wasn't there i'd i'd go again and then get it located in another area and she would she would just move and she was just moving around and i i anticipate if she wouldn't have been found of course she

would have never floated and as bad as it, the fish life and turtles and stuff would have just ate that body, and she would have been found. So it was a huge effort with everybody, and you know what, Nancy? God just put us in the right place at the right time. Tim, not everyone knows that you lost your daughter. So when you get a case like this, what does it mean to you that you found Audrey? You're the one that spotted her on sonar. You may get me a little bit choked up right now but when i got home i said laura thank you just thank you because if you were still alive

i wouldn't be doing this were you there i said thank you laura because of the image and and what we got that's why the divers were there and and, I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back. There's no ego involved in it. Again, I've just been blessed by God with what he's given me, and I'm pretty good at that sonar. I'm not an expert. Tim, you don't have to pat your own back. If it had not been for you spotting her on the

sonar, she could have come loose from that rope and she would have been gone. Like you said, in 12 hours she'd be 50 miles away. And we would never have the answer to what happened to Audrey

Cunningham. And this savage, this brute, would walk free to attack another child. And you know another thing, Tim? We know of these two little girls, 110, 111, very similar in physicality. We don't know how many others are out there because you and I know Tim Miller that only one out of say eight or nine sex assault victims come forward and that is a conservative figure. You are hearing Tim Miller, my friend, my longtime colleague who runs Texas EquiSearch. Everybody on the panel, jump in. We got a lot to get through. First of all, to Joe Scott Morgan, renowned professor of forensic is joining us out of Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, book on Amazon and star of a hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott, right now, we don't have a COD, cause of death. She's still at the Harris County morgue. But you know, and I know, they know the cause of death. They probably knew the cause of death the moment they looked at her. I'm guessing asphyxiation of some sort but let me talk to you about a toxicology did he dope her up with let's just say Benadryl or something like that B you heard what Tim Miller said from Texas Aquasearch the water temps were very low how did that help or hurt had there been any fish activity on her I don't see how if she's in a swirling eddy just you know what you know more than me on this Joe Scott me. First off, I hope that the knots were not untied at the scene. I hope that the rock was not disengaged because when we work cases and they arrive at the morgue,

we want all of the elements present so that we can fully appreciate, you know, how, for instance, with her, how was she secured? You think about the forensics of knot tying. Plus, Joe Scott, what about potential DNA on the inside of those knots? Yeah, and that's quite interesting, depending upon how long she had been in there and not so much she, but those knots. Were there any protected spaces in there? Right now, my gut would say no, but Nancy, there's a saving grace here.

And Tim had brought this up, and this is the beauty of this. This, you used the term savage. That was kind. That article of clothing that was left on the shore there, if it was relatively intact and it was not super saturated with water, there might be a chance that you can find some foreign DNA on there and that may originate. Can you please be, Joe Scott, really, I am completely drained on the case. Please speak to me in regular talk. Are you talking about, when you say, I don't even, you're talking about sperm, you're talking about saliva, you're talking about epithelial skin cells, hair, any fiber from his clothes that could be on her pants.

Is there some other DNA I'm missing? Hair, fiber, skin, sperm, blood, sweat. Is there some other DNA that I'm missing? Well, hold on. I think Tim's jumping in. Do you have something, Tim? Yeah, can I break in real quick? Please.

Actually, with the Texas Rangers yesterday and stuff, and doing an affidavit and giving all the pictures and stuff for the trial, and one of the things that we talked about is, thank God, that water was as cold as it was because if he sexually assaulted her, there was possibly going to be able to get semen from her. Good point. Okay, Joe Scott, I hate to treat you like a computer, but that's more data that has been input into that brain of yours.

Now spit it out as best as you can. We'll all try not to interrupt. Go ahead, unless we have to. No, that's okay, sure. Yeah, so and one other thing here i think that that's that's really pertinent is the fact that that garment was found on the shore i'm really wondering nancy if he had not picked that spot to you know commit uh commit this savage attack on her that that's the location where he may have stripped her and have done

whatever he did to her that you had previously mentioned. And if that's the case. I see it right there. I would think that he would attack her and sex assault her in the car or in some covered area, not in the open area along the riverbank. Right. Yeah, but I think. That's a very wide open area there.

At this point, I don't think that anything can be discounted though. We don't even have... Yes, you're right. But tell me what we do know. What we will get from that body. I can tell you this right now. When you don't know a horse, look at his track record. He tried to sex assault the other little girl. So he tried to sex assault this little girl. Okay? That's sex assault this little girl. Okay? That's not a leap of imagination.

That's his track record. So why else would he have her? What, to sit in his car and play solitaire? To watch TikTok? Hell no. He attacked this girl. That's why she didn't have her pants on. So what evidence am I going to get? Well, given the fact that she is found in a body of water,

I think that it is going to be very difficult to have success with a rape kit if he ejaculated within her person, okay, and she's nude in the water. We don't know that at this point. Are you telling me they can't retrieve sperm from her vagina or rear end? I mean, listen to what Tim just said a second ago. Her body was swirling around, Nancy. I know, but the water wouldn't go into her vagina. Of course it would.

Of course it would, and it does. And let me throw one more thing at you. If that isn't enough, you're talking about a small child. And I hate to say this, Nancy, but she's greatly dilated at this point in time, if in fact she was sexually assaulted. Are you talking about her vagina? Yes, Nancy, I am. Well, then say it, man. Spit it out. Okay, now actually you're making sense if her vagina is dilated because of the water?

Is that what you're saying? No, no, because of the sexual assault. Because of the sex assault, you're saying that's how water could penetrate the vagina? Absolutely. assault. Because of the sex assault, you're saying that's how water could penetrate the vagina. Because ladies, think about it. When you get in the bathtub, you do not get water in your vagina. Same thing here. But what Joe Scott is saying, I think, is that because she, we believe, had been raped, her vagina is now dilated and water could enter and destroy the evidence. Oh dear Lord, unless there's some evidence on her pants. Is that right? Yes, it is. And one other area here that might be a bit more protected, believe it or not, might be her fingernails. I think that with nail clippings in

particular, because that's kind of a hooded area, if everybody will just look at their fingernails, if she scraped him, there might be a possibility that's still trapped beneath her finger fingernails. That's kind of a long shot, but that's what I would be thinking as well. Joe Scott, why don't we have a COD yet? I think that they're taking their time with it. You know, one of the things I thought about, and, you know, this is way off topic. I'm really, and they have to consider this i wonder if she was placed in there alive um i don't know that and they're trying to make a

determination as to whether or not um perhaps she had taken on uh water in life and they would find evidence of that in her lungs also there's a test that we do in the inner air at autopsy that we check for drowning. I think that part of that is that's what's complicating this to this point. And also the suffocation. Isn't it a matter of removing the lungs and weighing them to see if they're wet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can. And there's a standard weight.

What does that take, 15 minutes? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can. And there's a standard. What does that take, 15 minutes? Yeah, it does. However, what they will want to do, Nancy, also with drowning, to confirm it, is we look for what are called diatoms. And that's these little creatures that exist in the water that you take on and you have to look at them microscopically. So I'm wondering if that might be part of it as well, Nancy. You mean whatever lives in the river water, whatever microscopic organisms would now be in her lungs. Yeah. Now, what is the inner ear test for drowning? Well, you would actually have water contained within the inner ear.

And so that's part of the drowning process as well. And so that's something that we would want to consider and that they're looking at. I can tell you they're being very thorough with this. Joe Scott, jump in as we move along. But I want to talk about this affidavit. Joining you right now, high profile lawyer out of Livingston, Lana Shadwick, former judge, former prosecutor, legal analyst for Breitbart in Texas at lanishadwick.com. Lana, thank you for being with us. Have you read the affidavit? I've got a few things I want to ask you about. This guy is so full of

crap because we hear police say, this is where you're gonna come in Lee Reber that they were able to place a defendant with the victim now how through cell phone data we know that through other digital information and through information from him. But I am telling you right now, he was lying through his teeth. The information they likely got from him is from his cell phone because triangulation doesn't lie. Pings don't lie. This guy lied through his teeth. Well, they've got him now. I mean, he's at the bridge with cell phone data, the pings. I mean, you can lie all you want to, but you know, unfortunately, I mean, unfortunately he tied her to a rock and that's where the body was found. They're going to be able to ping his cell phone, get video footage of that 2003 blue Suburban and placed him there. And now that vehicle is in the custody of law enforcement

authorities. And you know they are combing it. You know, I want you to look, Lana, at paragraph five. Affiant shall show through investigation. That's the cop. It's the affiant. Investigations were able to determine through cell phone data, video footage, and other forensic evidence that McDougal lied about his whereabouts and activities. Yeah, they got him.

He flat out lied. And another thing, take a listen to our friend at Crime Online, Rachel Bonilla. According to KTRK, Don Stephen McDougal was seen in a Livingston mechanic shop near Highway 59 the day Audrey went missing. Workers at the shop said McDougal was filthy, covered in dirt and acting suspicious. He was there trying to get a part for his blue Chevy Suburban. So we know that he was completely filthy at a mechanics shop. What about that, Lana? Filthy with what? Because he had been down there at the riverbank getting rid of a body? Well, absolutely. That's evidence of where he was beyond, you know, having cell phone pings and video footage.

Now they've got him covered in lake river mud and so saying he's filthy. So the guy's so smart, he doesn't even bother to clean up anything before he goes out to get a part first car. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm very curious about what we know regarding that video footage and the cell phone pings. Bob Price joining me, associate editor, senior news contributor, Breitbart, Texas. Bob, do you know that the pings absolutely place him on that bridge? Because based on what Tim Miller is saying, he didn't throw a body off a bridge. He went down on the riverbank. Right. And with the clothing found on the riverbank and not tangled up in the grass along the river's edge, we know that he was up on that bank and

probably placed her or pushed her into the water with that rock attached. Not only did the cell phone data confirm that, though, he took the police to that location on Saturday and said that that was one of the places that he'd been. Now, he lied about some other things, but he admitted that he was at that location. Now, the interesting thing about him getting a cart. Please, my dear sweet boy. He only did that when they showed him, hey, your phone is pinging right here. Oh, sure, probably so.

He didn't volunteer and he lied through his teeth, man. So he was at this car shop getting parts for his car. He went on Facebook that day and started selling off a bunch of his personal belongings. He was planning to run at that point, and fortunately, the police caught up with him before he had a chance to flee. Lee Reber is joining us at a new Alexandria, Virginia, mobile device forensic expert and CEO of Oxygen Forensics, Inc. He is the author of, listen to this, Mobile Forensic Investigations, and he's the host of a podcast, which is great, by the way, Forensic Happy Hour. Lee Reber, thank you for being with us. Lee, explain to me, how much can I rely on pings?

How accurate are they? Can they place him at that riverbank? Hey, Tim Miller, how close were Audrey's pants to the bridge? Were they thrown from the bridge or would he have had to go down to the riverbank? Had to go down to the riverbank and it was actually in the water. So it was saturated with water. Uh-oh, Joe Scott Morgan's not going to like that because that could have gotten rid of any forensic evidence linking the defendant back to her pants. But that said, I'll go back to you in a second, Joe Scott.

Lee Reber, explain to me how accurate is the pinging process? Yeah, I think that, you know, if you look at the triangulation, I mean, it could be accurate. It could be very accurate. But what I think is more important is the forensic evidence that's going to be from the device itself when they go and do the collection of that. Because those are just GPS devices that could put you, I mean, a meter to the location. So I think that utilizing, obviously, identifying, being able to, you know, he's lying because the location but once they have that device in their possession and do the processing of that it's going to show i mean there might be photos and the photos have uh exit data we can show location uh they can have just a simple uh from the data that's on the device any applications that were utilized and showing GPS locations so I think the data from the device itself will be way more important than looking at say that the data from the towers. Quick question Bob

Price joining us Breitbart what year is this PIRV's Chevy Suburban? So the sheriff announced that they were looking for information about this 2003 dark blue chevy suburban that he was seen driving and belongs to got it 2003 okay to lee reber mobile device forensic expert remember the alex murdoch trial how much we learned from his nav system you can even tell lee and you and I talked about this. You are awesome. When Murda got in his car, his SUV to leave the scene of the double murder where he murdered his wife and son, the nav system will even show him opening the car door, closing it, cranking up, putting the car in drive, driving, screeching out of the crime scene, slow, riding, driving like a bat out of hell, slowing down. It showed when he let his window down electronically, which I argue is when he threw Maggie Murdoch's cell phone out the window, let the window back up, and then hightailed it to his mother's house 28 miles away. It showed when he cranked back up, got back in, and went back to the crime scene.

He went, oh, dear Lord in heaven, my wife and son are dead. Let me call 911. It was all a lie. But those nav systems are amazing. Is there such a nav system in a two nav system in a 2003 suburban well the vehicle itself i mean uh in 2004 uh you know or if you remember the onstar systems you know they had onstar systems i know the 2004 chevy suburban uh has an onstar they all have computers with the nav systems uh 2003 yeah even in 2003. I'm just saying,

and, you know, as old as 2003, we had OnStar navigational systems that are running on all those opening doors. It'd be treasure trove along with the data from the mobile device. Busted! For sure. They better get on that subpoena

to Chevy right now because remember at trial, all that evidence they had asked for it long ahead of time. But they got it during the trial or right before the trial. Defense almost got to keep it out. Hey, word to the wise in Texas. Lana, Andy Cunningham, pass this along. Get the nav system information now. Bob Price, what can you tell me about text messages between Audrey's bio mom and McDougal? Apparently he was offering for the two of them to meet, stating that the little girl wanted to see her mom and coincidentally offering to meet at the spot by the river where the little girl was found. So Audrey, I've seen some of those posted on social media and clearly he was trying to entice this mother down to that river. Now that raises the question that about when is the actual time of death for Audrey?

Did he do something to her the night before and was trying to get the mom down there to do something with her as well? You know, there's a lot of things that could come into play here, but clearly he was trying to meet up with her and using Audrey as bait, if you will, to get her down there to meet meet with him we know from what he also bob price kept stressing don't tell anybody quote as long as no one says anything about it being set up no one would even know and she audrey wouldn't say anything and that's that's the mo that this guy has he he grooms people family members children all of this we know from what was said yesterday on the show that he assaulted a woman by groping

her at a public party, a married woman, just months before this. We know that he was at the birthday party of another 11-year-old child just months before this happened. He's hanging around all of these types of people down there. The father has a criminal conviction for assault causing bodily injury. Maybe that's how they met somewhere. Are you saying Audrey's father has that conviction? Yes. So my speculation that they met in the penitentiary could be accurate. What's another thing that's very disturbing about these texts between Audrey's bio mom and the defendant McDougal is he is saying, I will take her to school and have you on the phone. I will take her to school tomorrow. This is Wednesday night. The next day is the day he was supposed to take her to school, but whoops, she ended up without

her pants dead in the river. And he's talking to the mom the following morning, the day of the murders. Good morning. They're still planning to meet up with the girl. And he says, have you, he says to her, have you seen Audrey? I dropped her off at the bus and she didn't get on and hasn't gotten home. So he's lying in these texts to the mother. Bob. Yeah. If his lips are moving, he's, he, or his fingers are touching a keypad. He's lying in these texts to the mother bob yeah if his lips are moving he's he or his

fingers are touching a keypad he's lying and that's been consistent throughout this whole thing this whole area the the people in the courthouse told me that there there's 13 sex offenders that live within a very short radius of this house. This father and another father are exposing their children to these types of people on a regular basis and putting these children in dangerous situations. I've got a question about a photo for you. Lana Shadwick, Chris McDonough, joining us from the Cold Case Foundation,

former homicide detective and host of the interview room on youtube i've seen photos of the dad who according to bob price has a conviction for assault was it ag assault or assault bob assault causing bodily injury misdemeanor misdemeanor then they wouldn't have met in the pen maybe the county jail. But Lana and Chris, have you seen the photos of Audrey's dad with the defendant? Yes, I've seen the photos, Nancy. Yes. The photo is of the defendant, McDougal, and Audrey's dad with whom she lived. They've got their arms around each other.

All of his prison tattoos, his swastika, all that in plain view. They're hugging each other and they're shooting, it looks like, the A.B. Aryan brother. But that said, they're wearing matching bracelets. What kind of bromance do those two have? You know, that photo is obviously pretty disturbing, Nancy. And for this dirtbag, in order for the state of Texas to, quite frankly, hang a millstone around his neck and toss him into the sea, I think it's important not only that they look at what we call suspectology and kind of dissect what his past is. But I think this case is going to revolve and end up, you know,

balancing out on whether or not that child was alive when she was put into that water, because that opens up now an investigation into other potential crime scene locations, the house, the car. Why do you think it all hinges on whether she's dead or alive when she's thrown in the water? She's dead now. Because you have, like Dr. Morgan was talking about, the chances of getting greater forensic and or circumstantial evidence to put this guy away increase when you have crime scenes that you can actually collect that type of evidence. Like, let's just use the cigarette butts, for an example, that he bought at the gas station. Where are those cigarette butts if he bought cigarettes?

Where is, you know, his air filter? Is there evidence within that air filter that placed him underneath that bridge through, you know, bringing in a botanist? Well, hold on, please. Wait a minute. Chris McDonough. We have his pings placing him at the location where the child's body is found. Right. We have him being the last one with her.

Right. And that's all great evidence. We have him stating he had her in the car. So what did she do? Go tie a rock around her waist and throw herself off the bridge? No, but that's all great evidence. No. There's evidence right now to convict him.

Are you kidding me? No, totally agree. You think we can't prove this case without DNA? We can. But how would you like to find... DNA is just the icing on the cake. Nancy, how would we... What?

I know if I put a package in front of you in court, you would shred this guy. But how would you love to find semen in his truck where maybe that's where the sexual assault took place? And maybe we find her DNA. Or on his clothing? Have you thought of... Yeah, both.

Joe Scott, we stopped at the body. What about his clothing? Have you thought of that? Yes, both. Joe Scott, we stopped at the body. What about his clothing? You don't think there's any fibers from her on his clothing? No epithelial cells? No blood? No nothing? Hair. Hair?

Anything? What about it, Joe Scott? Help me out, brother brother it's possible that you could here's here's the problem as admitted earlier uh you were talking uh one of the guests had mentioned how filthy he was and encrusted with all of this dirt um and but yet he was clean at the gas station interesting go ahead so we don't know what the status of the clothing are. Is it possible that they could collect something from her, from this precious little angel that may have made its way onto him? Yes, that's within the realm of possibility. But we don't know how

much due care was taken with those clothing if, in fact, they have collected those clothing from him or from wherever he was domiciled at the time. Oh, got something. What about the rope? The rope. I mean, Lana Shadwick, you're the high profile lawyer. Well, even a trash bag can be traced back to the lot, the group of trash bags that were created, manufactured at what plant in what city on what day right

and where it was same thing with car paint yes you think they can't do the same thing on rope you think they can't match up the rope and you know he cut it you think that somebody like joe scott morgan can't take the one end of the rope that was tied around her body and the other end of the rope that was in his car. They already said it's the same rope and put it together and see forensically that they match perfectly. I think he can. He can. I mean, I'm just a JD. I'm not a crime lab scientist, but even I can figure that out. Nancy, here's here's another beauty part to the rope, depending upon how well they treated it and they removed it from her body. Did you know that if she was tied up with that rope anti-mortem prior to death, there's going to be evidence of that that you would not necessarily see with a post-mortem tie up.

So she's got an abraded area that's got any associated hemorrhage with it or anything, that's an indication that she may have been alive when she was tied up and secured at that point in time. I got another idea for you. Jackie, you can hold up your note. I can't take credit. It's Jackie's. Something about the fact that he was clean at the gas station after he was filthy at the mechanics,

depending on which was first, the chicken or the egg, does that mean he then disposed of the body and was the body in the truck for disposal? I find it really hard to believe he'd stop at a gas station with a dead body in the car.

That said, that means something. Lana Shadwick, I don't know what it means yet, but I will find out what it means. It's circumstantial evidence and direct evidence of him being by the river or by the lake, beyond the cell phone data and any video footage and that sort of thing. You've got him placed at a station where he's all clean in the video and then he yeah tell me something i don't know tell me something can there be neglect charges or felony neglect charges

neglect that ends in death filed against the father and please don't everybody start screaming at me you're blaming the victim. I am a crime victim. But I know this girl is dead. Injury to a child by negligence or omission. The felony is one in the state of Texas. So you've got... Will this fit that? If the dad had knowledge of his record, could he be charged with felony neglect

ending in death on a child? Certainly if he had knowledge. Okay. But the father also has a duty. How could he not have knowledge? They got a bromance going on. That's right. Got the same headbands on.

The same bracelet, the same headbands. Okay, Andy Kahn, in a nutshell, you know how I hate talking about legislation. Because of the Audrey case, what do you hope to achieve? I hope that we do end up bringing focus on offenders like McDougal,

who somehow escaped from having the label of sex offender on him. Maybe if he had to register back when he committed the offense of enticing a child in decency with a child when he evidently was trying to sexually assault a 10-year-old girl years ago. Maybe that would have raised alarm bells at this time. Maybe the community would have known more about McDougal. Who knows? Maybe the parents. I don't know. But at least we would have known about his criminal history and his propensity to do sexual deviant acts around young girls. So what I hope to do next session is to take this case, make it a catalyst for change. I said a nutshell.

Make it a catalyst for change and add the offense. You know what I hate, Andy Khan? You know what I hate? Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Yes, I want you to champion that and I want it to pass. Maybe another little girl will be saved. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Can't bring Audrey Cunningham back. Multiple opportunities were failed this year. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye. This is an iHeart Podcast.