Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Missing Mariah's dad speaks again to Nancy; Who is Tampa's serial killer? Kim Kardashian helps child sex slave

Episode Date: November 30, 2017

The father of missing toddler Mariah Woods points a finger at his ex's boyfriend in an interview with Nancy Grace. Mariah disappeared from her North Carolina bedroom. Victims advocate Marc Klaas, criminal profiler Pat Brown, and psychologist Caryn Stark also join Grace to look at the case. WFLA-TV reporter Meredyth Censullo updates the case of the suspected Tampa serial killer. Howell Emanuel Donaldson III is charged with 4 shooting deaths. Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan also joins the discussion. Grace, investigator Sheryl McCollum, psychologist Dr. Tiffany Sanders and  reporter Alexis Tereszcuk look at how Kim Kardashian is helping a child sex trafficking victim sentenced to prison for the death of her alleged rapist. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. was last seen by her mother at her home in Onslow County. The mother tells me she last saw her daughter in the home at around 11 p.m. when she checked on her. This is my world. This is my angel. She said her boyfriend saw the toddler around midnight when he got up, and she says he told her to go back to bed. She was reported missing around 6 o'clock in the morning. The love I have for this girl, the bond that I have is my life. The child is white, 3 feet 9 inches inches tall, weighs 30 pounds and has blonde hair and blue eyes. Not making sense to me about where she could be at, who she could be with. Christy

says she doesn't believe her child could have walked off as she has weak bones and wears special braces to help her walk. I love her and I'll never let her go again. I just want to hold her tight, see her smile. We are joining the search for a beautiful baby girl, Mariah K. Woods. She goes missing from her home, in the home, her siblings, her mother, and her mother's boyfriend. Now, let me understand what they say happened. Joining me is Alex Woods. This is Mariah, baby Mariah's father. Mark Klass, renowned victim's advocate, father of Polly Klass, who went missing.

Pat Brown, world-renowned criminal profiler and psychologist out of New York, Karen Stark. Alex Woods, I want to go through with you, if you can. Tell us what police told you about how she went missing. What happened? Police, they think that she walked away. I mean, I don't know. Wait, are you telling me that police think she walked out of the house without her braces on? I mean, describe her leg braces for me, Alex.

What were they exactly? I don't know what you're saying. I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying. Let me ask you that question again. Describe her leg braces, Alex. Alex, are you there okay I don't know he's he's he's busting in tears right now and he it's this is heather hi heather are you his fiance yes you know what can i talk to you i really want to get this message out to the listeners

yes okay uh right now everyone mariah's dad is completely overcome with the grief of talking about baby mariah and with me is his fiancee heather heather he called he heard about mariah missing on the radio nobody had called him and told him anything he says he then called you to ask you, was it true? What happened, Heather? He heard it through an Amber Alert. He was working, and he heard an Amber Alert over the radio. And he called me, and he was like, our daughter is missing. And I thought, because he was talking, I thought it was like, which daughter? Because we have two.

And then I was like, which daughter? He was like, Mariah. And I was like, which daughter? Because we have two. And then I was like, which daughter? He's like, Mariah. And I was like, no way. He said, yes, please find out if it's true. And I was like, okay. So I got on my phone and, you know, I pulled up, you know, the Amber Alert. He said it came across Amber Alert. So I pulled up Amber Alert, you know, North Carolina.

And I saw, I was like, yeah, I called him back. Yeah, it's true. And I saw that it was you know on Dustin Cabin and everything and then he said that I called him back he said that a detective was coming to talk to him and but I went down to and talked to a detective and gave them Alex's information and the detective said that they were not even notified of Alex being the father, being her father, and until he caught, until we notified him. Oh, my goodness. Well, Pat Brown, our criminal profiler, has pointed out how very odd it was that nobody,

that the mom didn't call him immediately to see if he had the baby. Heather, is he able to speak yet? Yeah, he's right here. Okay. Alex? Yes, ma' right here. Okay. Alex? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Okay, I just want to thank you so much, and I know it hurts.

I know it is hurting you so badly to verbalize what's going on in your head and your heart, but we've got to get it out there. There are millions of people on the road right now. There are millions of people in shopping centers, walking around in strip centers, laundromats, you name it, apartment complexes that may hear this and may see her. We're talking about three-year-old Mariah K. Woods, and she is absolutely beautiful she is brownish blonde hair with blue eyes every picture i see of her she's wearing pink and she's gorgeous here's an identifier she has a problem walking she wears braces her braces were in the home in the home now correct me if I'm wrong, Alex Woods, but the mom is saying she put the baby to bed at 11.

I've got conflicting reports about that, but that the boyfriend, the live-in, sees her walking around at 12 and tells her to go back to bed. They check on her at 6.30 in the morning, and she's gone. She had on PJs, which were laying beside the bed, which leaves her in nothing but a pair of pink and white striped underwear. No other clothes are missing, and her leg braces are in the home. They also say the door was unlocked and slightly ajar. Is that right, Alex? Yes, ma'am.

People are also saying that they've seen somebody go out the back door about 3, 4 o'clock in the morning. Who is saying that? Just people. Their neighbors, I guess. I don't know for sure. I ain't heard a name or nothing like that. Hannah? It was like a grandma that helped Christy watch the babies. Her name

was Hannah something. I don't remember her last name, but that she's seen somebody go out the back door apparently about three or four o'clock in the morning carrying something and it looked like it was Limp. I don't know. I heard that they impounded Christy's van for evidence and found a trash can and impounded it for evidence. I don't know. Alex Woods, Mariah's dad, you're giving me so much information. I'm trying to digest it and evaluate it. So now we hear that there may be an eyewitness in that little neighborhood that sees someone leaving Mariah's home between 3 and 4 a.m. Now, I know, Mark Klass, that sounds crazy. Who's up at 3 or

4 a.m. looking out the window? But you know what? I have a habit of waking up every night at 3 o'clock. I don't know why. And I walk around the whole place. I check on the children. I check on my mom. I check on everything. And then I try to go back to sleep. It's not unheard of, Mark Klass, but it's interesting to me that that piece of evidence isn't out there. I'm just hearing it for the first time right now, Mark. Yeah, we're hearing a lot of mind-boggling information. There's no question about that. If I were Alex, what I would do now is I would find the authorities. I'd go and find somebody either with the local

sheriff's department or maybe even the FBI, because we know that they're involved, and find somebody that will talk to him and share as much information as they can about the investigation so that he can separate the rumors from the fact. Because it doesn't sound like he's done that yet. I think it's really, really important for him to be as much as on top of this investigation as he can possibly be and to be on top of it with good information and real information. You know what? You're absolutely right. Pat Brown, criminal profiler. You're hearing Alex Woods. This is Mariah's dad, Mark Klass, a world-renowned victims' rights advocate. You're the criminal profiler. also with me,

Karen Stark, psychologist out of New York, Pat, based on what you're hearing now. And we don't know. Alex doesn't know if this is sure or not, but the time would fit. And we don't know who that person is. Is it intruder? Is it someone already in the home? But I would not totally discount what he's saying. Pat Brown, weigh in. Yeah, I mean, I tend to believe that someone would have carried the child out of the home. I don't believe that she walked out of the home. I think that's kind of strange behavior for a three-year-old in the middle of the night, not to go to her mother, but to just wander out of the house. I don't buy that one. That, you know, so somebody took her out of the house. And I think what is encouraging to me

is that the police appear to have two different avenues in their investigation. One, they're checking out the family home, because it is true that when children disappear out of homes, it often has something to do with what happened in the home. And boyfriends are one of the most dangerous people around small children, because they don't have that connection, that loving connection to the child. And little children are difficult to deal with as parents anyway. And a boyfriend doesn't have that connection and can become much more angry than a general parent. So they're going to look at that particular, that avenue because they have to, they have to say, we made, we want to make sure that

something didn't happen in the home and it looks like they're doing that but I'm also very pleased that at the same time they're looking outside the home thinking perhaps somebody did have their eye on the child maybe somebody did come in in the night let's not ignore that avenue because if the child has been taken by somebody else they want to find that child as quickly as possible to bring her home safely so I'm really glad that they're pursuing all avenues. Following up on what criminal profiler Pat Brown says, Karen Stark, if it were me, I would submit to a polygraph pronto, the mom and the boyfriend, the whole bunch.

Yeah, I would too, you know, and drill them, ask them a million questions. You know, if they know something, it'll come out. I mean, if they know something now, they ain i mean if they know something now they ain't said it they ain't gonna tell it they're trying to cover it up if they ain't said it by now it's you know what do you mean what what why would you say that well earl he's he's a drug user and he's got caught working and got fired for drugs. He's got a bad temper. And I don't know. It's just strange. I mean, and Christy, she ain't the ideal mom.

I mean, you know, ain't nobody perfect, but she's far from perfect. Well, all of the things that Alex Woods is telling us, I do not have any evidence to support any drug allegations or bad parenting. There are also reports that Child Protective Services took Mariah and the siblings away in 2016, and they were placed with Alex Woods. Is that, in fact, true, Alex? Yes, ma'am. And, again, why did they take the children from the mother?

Because Earl, her boyfriend, beat Ryan with a belt and left bruises. And they tried to cover it up and say that he fell off a bunk bed. Wait, are you saying this about the live-in boyfriend? The live-in boyfriend, he's the one who beat Ryan with a belt. And Christy covered it up. Ryan, are you saying Ryan is Mariah's brother? Yeah. Okay, and because I want to turn this back toward Mariah missing.

Alex Woods, have you talked to Mariah's mother yet? No. Okay. What are police telling you about what happened, what they think happened that night when she goes missing? They're not really telling me yet. I mean, they're trying to get as much evidence and stuff built up as they can. I mean, I've called and asked them, and I'm in continuous contact with them,

and they ain't really, you know, breaking it down and telling me a specific story. You know, I mean, they're getting stories from this person and that person and they're trying to filter it out and get a real concrete story to run with. You know, Karen Stark, uh, joining me out of New York. It seems to me if the baby was wandering around, she would have gone to her mother. Although the boyfriend says he saw her and told her to go back to bed.

That may have stopped her from going to her mother. But I find it hard to believe this child would leave the house in the middle of the night. I really do. It doesn't make any sense unless she had a history of doing that. At three years old, she would not just walk out of her house. That's too scary. And I'm just curious because Alex says he doesn't believe that that's what happened either. And I was wondering what he was talking about when he said that.

Okay, let's ask him. Alex, what do you think happened? Well, Christy's own father said that, you know, he don't believe that's what happened. And him and that girl, Anna, have heard and believe and seen that their stories match up. That there was somebody that was carrying something out of the house about 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. And, I don't know, it just, you know, I mean, it just don't seem right because I just don't see the little girl walking. Have you asked police whether the boyfriend and the mom have taken polygraphs? They have not yet.

I have asked that. They said not yet. I don't know why, but they ain't put them on a polygraph machine yet. They've questioned them several times, but no polygraph. The tip line, 910-455-3113. Please help us bring baby Mariah home. Alex, if you could speak to your little girl, Mariah, or whoever took her, what would you say?

Please bring my little baby girl back home. She's precious. She's precious. She's innocent. She ain't done nothing to nobody. I mean, she's a little three-year-old girl. Me and my fiance, we love her so much. We miss her so much. Daddy loves you so much, baby.

Please come home, honey. Again, everybody, please help us join together and solve this mystery. 910-455-3113. So many lives hang in the balance. I want to pause and thank our partners that are making today's program and our search for baby Mariah possible. It's super beats. It's all about energy. Wouldn't it be great to have all the energy you

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partner today. And now on Crime Stories. Tampa police on the hunt for a killer after the shooting deaths of three people in ten days. We will hunt this son of a bitch down until we find him. Authorities pouring over, raining surveillance video for clues, looking at this person of interest walking alone, wearing a hood on the night of the first killing. You guys go hunt him down and bring his head to me. I am pleased to announce that tonight we will be making an arrest in the Seminole Heights murder. Tonight is the beginning of when justice will be served,

and then the process will occur when this individual rots in hell. Did you know that in 1925 you could have bought a home for $6,000 or 300 ounces of gold? Hi, I'm Scott Carter with PM Capital. In 1961, a similar home was $13,000, but still the same amount of gold. Today, the house is $385,000, but it's still only 302 ounces of gold. Investors know it's not what you have, it's what you keep. PM Capital is in the wealth preservation business, and helping you keep your buying power is our goal. Find out how owning gold can help keep your buying power is our goal. Find out how owning gold can help

preserve your buying power. Home prices increased from 6,000 to 385,000 in 90 years, but it's still the same amount of gold today. That's called preserving your buying power. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword grace. That's pound 250 keyword grace. Dial pound 250 and say grace. Our specialists are standing by. Right now, straight out to Meredith Censulo with WFLA joining us in the Seminole Heights neighborhood. Breaking news, Meredith Censillo, what happened? There was a man who worked at a McDonald's restaurant a couple of miles from Seminole Heights,

and he ran out to run an errand, is what he told a co-worker, and left a bag with that co-worker. And the co-worker decided to take a look inside and actually found a gun. There happened to be a police officer, a Tampa police officer, that was actually in the restaurant at that time and took that gun, took a look at it, called in some reinforcements. And when the police were there, staged when that person arrived back on scene,

and they took that man into custody. And we have since learned that that man is Howell Emanuel Donaldson III, who also goes by Trey. And that gun matched all four murder scenes here in Seminole Heights. Late that evening, after taking him into custody, that man, Howell Donaldson, was charged with four counts of murder in the first degree. Also, in the parking lot, the police officers found a vehicle in the trunk. There was a hoodie that appeared to be very similar to a hoodie that was seen in that first surveillance video. Drops of blood were found on that hoodie, possibly another clue to link this person to the crime scenes.

We know that this man, he is a local. He was a basketball player for a local high school. He then went on to complete college in New York, appeared at least in his social media accounts to be someone who was very driven, perhaps very intelligent, but he was working at a McDonald's here. He's 24 years old. Again, Howell Donaldson III. He is now charged with those four counts of murder. And Tampa police are confident that this is the person that's been murdering these nice folks here in Seminole Heights. So far, no one in Seminole Heights knows him. He claims in the arrest report that he has no link to Seminole Heights. He lists an

address here in Tampa, his parents' address, about 10 to 15 miles away from Seminole Heights. But the big clue is what we've all been waiting for, and it's that gun. Another interesting note here is that the gun was purchased on October 3rd here in Tampa. He picked up that gun on October 7th. The first murder, Benjamin Mitchell, that first murder was committed on October 9th, just two days from when that gun was purchased and picked up. Joining me on the scene there in Seminole Heights is WFLA-TV's Meredith Censulo. And also joining me is Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University.

What is so miraculous to me is the way that this unfolded, the chance, the unlikelihood that this would happen. Because what we know happened is that the guy now under arrest, he is a graduate at St. John's University in Queens, New York. He was enrolled there in 2011, was a walk-on member of the school's basketball team, says the school program. It's amazing. And the employee that happened to crack this case, as Meredith Cicciolo told us, an employee at McDonald's, his name is Peebo Johnson, says that he was working the grill station when a man walked into the restaurant carrying a book bag. The man asked the manager to hold the bag while he went to cash a check. But he said, don't look inside. Well, of course, the first thing you're going to do is look inside.

The female manager looked anyway. She found the gun and called police. When the man came back, officers swarmed the scene, got him to the ground. And as Meredith Cianciullo is reporting, police now believe that the deaths of four people are connected. They're not saying why, but clearly, Meredith is right, it has to do with the ballistics. And the reason I say that this is so miraculous, Joe Scott Morgan, the reason I say this is so miraculous is you would never have suspected this guy to be a serial killer. We don't have any type of a motive. But also, what's so miraculous is the way he was

caught really by chance. Yeah, he was caught by chance, Nancy. And what's really great about this is that this is demonstrative of how the community just came together. Everybody had their eyes open. The police have been pushing this for a while. And I'm sure that this worker, when in this area, when they were handed a bag containing a gun, alarm bells went off in their head because this is in front of them day after day after day. As the Tampa mayor, Bob Butcorn, said, the battle between darkness and light, light has won. And that just really struck a chord in me. For those of you just joining us, the man believed to be responsible for four deadly shootings in the Tampa area, Seminole Heights, has been detained. All by chance. Police get a tip about a guy at a McDonald's with a book bag that has a

gun in it. They converge on the scene. It's at McDonald's in Tampa's Ybor City. I've been there many, many times in Ybor. And it turns out to be, they think, the Tampa serial killer. Meredith Cicillo joining me on the scene in Seminole Heights, WFLA correspondent Meredith. What more can you tell us? It just seems so surreal that this is how he is caught. Very surreal. From all accounts, this man comes from a very good family locally in Tampa. There was no indication leading up to this, at least from the people that have come forward so far, who may have played basketball with him in high school, nothing to indicate that this would be that person. However, if you look

at social media accounts, which have since been locked down, he went by Trigger Ty. These nicknames, apparently, that he gave himself, Trigger this and Tr and trigger that he had given himself this name are you saying as in a gun trigger that's the way that he presented this on his social media accounts at least one of them he he called himself trey uh because he was donaldson the third so he gave himself this nickname trey and at least on his Instagram account, he was going by Trigger Trey. That account is now locked down, as are all of his other social media accounts. But as I mentioned, they have traced that gun. There is a receipt for that gun, and he picked it up just two days before this first murder. So that in itself is very interesting. Also, in the vehicle that we mentioned at McDonald's, they actually found a box of ammunition.

And that ammunition does match ammunition found at the crime scene. Right now, major break in the case. Tampa police say they have in custody a 24-year-old college grad in connection with four fatal shootings. This guy eluding authorities and gripping the Tampa area in fear, especially the Seminole Heights neighborhood. Charging documents being crafted right now against Howell Emanuel Donaldson III. And you know in Florida, they're not afraid of giving you the death penalty. I can tell you that right now.

I want you to listen to what the mayor had to say. You know, 51 days ago I said this was a struggle between good and evil. Well, tonight, goodness has won. Tonight, in the battle between darkness and light, light has won. Tonight is the beginning of when justice will be served. And then the process will occur when this individual rots in hell. TPD did their job. The troopers did their job.

FDLE did their job. The FBI did their job. Seminole Heights did their job. And tonight, we're bringing someone to justice who doesn't deserve the right to walk amongst us. I want to pause and thank our partner who is making our program and our search for the Tampa serial killer possible. Circle. Circle with Disney. You know, it's so easy to just read a script going through all of the features, but I want to talk parent to parent. You know, we all know the internet has so much to offer our children. They're going to grow up only knowing

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And believe it or not, as much as people mock Kim Kardashian and others, she has actually sicked her lawyers on this case to help the girl. Really? You know what? Because of that, I think I can endure one more Kanye song. Straight out to Alexis Tereschuk with the very latest. Alexis joining us from RadarOnline.com. Alexis, you know, after I met the Kardashians when I was doing Dancing with the very latest. Alexis joining us from RadarOnline.com. Alexis, you know, after I met the Kardashians when I was doing Dancing with the Stars, I very rarely say a bad word about them because they were very, very nice and friendly and believe it or not, very low key. And maybe it was all a big act, but I was out there from August till Thanksgiving to the bitter end and it never changed they were that way every time I was around them and they were

that was because they were coming to see Rob Kardashian who was dancing remember and that's why they were showing up at all the rehearsals and the events. And I can't remember what charity he gave his money to. I know mine went to NICMA, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. So having known them then, I very rarely will find anything bad to say. They're just making money. They're just a squirrel trying to get a nut, right? Now, I've got to say, I think a lot more of her, now that she has sicked her lawyers

high-profile lawyers by the way to work on this case of this little girl let's get to the heart of this Alexis Tereschuk RadarOnline.com tell me about Centoria what happened why is the victim behind bars so Centoria was a young teenager 15 year old runaway she somehow unfortunately got captured for lack of a better word by a pimp named cutthroat he okay wait wait wait wait slow it down okay now at age 15 i was still riding my bike around the neighborhood and i would just you know be in the backyard practicing somersaults and cartwheels and splits, trying to do a cheer. And I wasn't totally convinced that Santa was not real at age 15.

Now, this girl who has just turned 15, and I'm sure there was a reason she was a runaway gets kidnapped by a pimp and it happens all the time right here I poo-pooed human trafficking until I met with human trafficking experts it's real runaways get let me just say enslaved they do right here in America. So this girl 15 who should be practicing her cheers or reading her English homework is on the streets. What happens?

That's exactly what he does. His name was Cutthroat. He kidnaps her. He drugs her. He plies her with drugs. He sexually abuses her and he pimps her out. He turns her into a sex slave he hires her out to men they're going to pay to abuse her wait wait alexis hold on i'm drinking from a fire hydrant here it's just too much so she's just turned 15 she's a runaway she

gets kidnapped by a pimp which is easy enough to do to kidnap a kid. I've prosecuted... She had no one to fight for her. Alexis, I have literally prosecuted a set of three pimps that got a runaway girl. She was 13

and turned her into a prostitute. She was 13, Alexis, and I still remember the moment I had been working the streets trying to find this girl for over a month with three cops from Vice. I never even went into my office. I went straight to the street every day, and it was cold, and I remember I had this horrible thin little coat. That's all I could afford as a prosecutor and I was out looking for

this girl and they said and finally we had been out for about three and a half weeks every day and they went we think we got her get the car I got in the car we went to some flop house we got there we went in and there were several ladies sitting around I went back I'm like she's not in there why are we here they went that's her sitting on the bed I went back. I'm like, she's not in there. Why are we here? They went, that's her sitting on the bed. I went back in. Alexis, she had long weave in her hair, high heel boots, false eyelashes. She's 35 years old. She was 13.

Alexis Tereshchuk, this happens. It happens. And then she gets sold out to man after man after man after man after man what happens the pimp ends up selling her permanently he gives her to a man who enslaves her in his home so after he sold her to hundreds, maybe even thousands of men, he gives her to one person. And she has no recourse.

She has nothing that she can say or do. She has no one that she can go to to help her. So he sells her to this man who's 43 years old. And he was actually a real estate agent. He's not- Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm sorry, Alexis. Therese Chuck, RadarOnline.com.

Hold on. Dr. Brian Russell is with me. Not only a psychologist, but also a lawyer and host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vows, which is an awesome program, Brian. Dr. Brian, how does a 43-year-old man who has a job and a life think it's okay to buy a 15-year-old girl and keep her locked up in the house and have sex with her? How does that happen? I don't think there's any rational explanation for it, Nancy. It's absolutely disgusting. I just, oh, okay. The story just keeps getting worse go ahead alexis so this man buys her from her pimp she is now 16 years old teenager and he keeps her enslaved in his home again sexually assaulting her keeping her tied up he will not let her leave she says she realizes when she gets in this home that it is filled with guns just an arsenal of weapons

and she is terrified all this time all these bad things that have been happening to her she now is afraid because she sees all these guns that this man is going to kill her she finally has enough he has raped her he has enslaved her she and let me just remind everybody, Ashley Wilcott with me. Alexis, number one, I'm sorry. I went round and round with John David half the night with Alexa. So I'm just saying it. I can't stop myself. I'm sorry.

Okay. I've known you for many, many years. I know your name is Alexis Tereshchuk, but I keep saying Alexa, and I can't stop myself. It's okay. Ashley Wilcott is with me, a high-profile lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction

and renowned child advocate. Ashley, what? Okay, did I miss something? She shoots the guy that's been raping her. Now, remember, a lot of people would argue, well, that was consensual. A child cannot have consensual sex. That's right. That's impossible under the law.

Okay, go ahead. No, it's just, it's crazy, isn't it? She's a victim. And here's the problem we have in our child welfare system and with society is people think that they are criminals, that it's prostitution, that they're stealing the guns and taking things from this man. And it's all crime related. Bottom line, she's a victim. She's endured many multiple traumas that have even changed her brain science. She's a victim. She's not the criminal, but our system is not yet caught up to what we know based on a lot of different

scientific research to say, this is a victim. She does not need to go to jail. She needs treatment. She needs help, not jail. If these facts are true, which I have no reason to doubt the facts that Alexis Tereschuk is like spinning out for me. And all of this is court record. All of this, it was in the court record when she came up on charges of murder. Okay, go ahead, Alexis Tereschuk, go ahead. So she ends up shooting this man and killing him. Finally, she said she was afraid he was going to kill her. He has raped her repeatedly.

He has held her captive in his home. She shoots him. Police come and arrest her. And they don't even care about the years of torture that she has been subjected to. And she gets prosecuted for murder for this man who bought her, who bought her from a pimp. She wasn't trying to rob him or steal anything from him. She was trying to fight for her own life. You know, to Joseph Scott Morgan, joining me, he's a forensics expert and

professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. You know, Joe Scott, I'd like to hear you weigh in on this. You know, Nancy, I've been looking over this case now for a bit, and it seems as though to me that the system in general failed this child. And she was a child when all of this occurred. She's been taken against her will, held, essentially imprisoned with this guy. He's been abusing her. I would think that just the physical changes in her person could have been demonstrative of what she was undergoing during this period of time. And I'm really curious as to why the prosecution would move forward on a case like this without really, really digging deep into this thing. Also, they put forward this idea that this child who was born to a mother that drank incessantly, The idea has been brought up that she might be suffering from developmental

alcohol ingestion syndrome. You're talking about fetal alcohol syndrome because the mom drank heavily while she was pregnant. And I learned that from, there was a PBS public broadcasting system documentary called Me Facing cynthia's story and it tells satoria's story and then just recently um there was another special on it um from fox 17 news and it just aired and i think that's what what got kim kardashian going on this and of course we also know rihanna has jumped on the bandwagon. And you know what? The more the merrier to bring on justice.

What were you saying, Joe Scott? Yeah, you can see physical manifestations in people that suffer from this condition. But there's also issues that have come up, you know, where they talk about impulse control and that sort of thing So it's a powder keg You have a person who is in fear of their life They're being sequestered, held against their will She sees an opportunity for freedom here And she takes the obvious choice

This guy's probably threatening to kill her I don't know what kind of defense was put up for her. And finally, you know, the key that unlocked the door for her was a.40 caliber round that killed this guy. And she's free in that sense from him, but now she's been placed into a prison system that, as you well know, Nancy, is very unforgiving. So as it stands right now to Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation Discoveries, Fatal Vows, as it stands right now, this girl will not be eligible for parole until she is 69 years old. I mean, it's like this kid, well, she's not a kid anymore, but this girl never had a chance

from the get-go, Dr. Bryan. Okay, so I absolutely sympathize with this girl tremendously for everything that she went through. And I certainly have no sympathy at all for the deceased in this case. I knew there was going to be a but. I could tell. You know, I learned that. Ashley, isn't it true, Ashley Wilcott, when a judge starts talking, you can always tell there's going to be a butt. Absolutely. They're going to rule for you and they start saying, well, you know, Miss Grace, you put up quite a, you know, a convincing blah, blah, blah. You know, there's going to be a butt.

They always have a butt when they start off like that, don't they? Isn't that true, Ashley Wilcott? It is. It is true. I'm on the bench and it's very true. That's how we present it. Okay, go ahead, Brian Russell. Get ready to tangle. Okay, so at the risk of being the turn in the punch bowl here this morning. I thought that was my saying. I'm pretty sure you stole that from me. Okay, go ahead. You know, there are essentially two states of mind in our system that a person can be in that enable the person to kill someone else and be excused for it. And those two states of mind are either you are in fear of imminent death or severe bodily harm at the hands of the person you kill, or you are so mentally out of it that you either don't know what you're doing or you can't distinguish, you're incapable of distinguishing legal from illegal. So we have to go back now, I think it's

13 years, and just remember the fact that a jury at that time concluded that neither one of those two states of mind applied to this young woman at the time. And we have to also keep in mind that neither past trauma nor things like fetal alcohol syndrome, while we sympathize with those, all of us do, I know, they do not generally render somebody into either one of those two mental states. So yes, we need to take another look at this case. But I think we have to remember that sometimes the story that we hear several years after a conviction from somebody is a little bit different than the story that the jurors heard originally. And so I'm always a little hesitant to conclude that a unanimous

group of jurors was just nuts 13 years ago. Well, I got to agree with you, Dr. Brian Russell. Look, as much as the law may taste bitter as it's going down, It is the law. Now, unless she was acting in self-defense and now we are hearing this guy was reaching for a gun. If that was true, then this would be self-defense. If not, she would have the argument of just like a battered woman would have the argument of the battered woman syndrome, which very often carries the day, or she would have a voluntary manslaughter charge of provocation or heat of passion, anger, and the heat of passion of being molested. Those would be her defenses. There are two of them. One, self-defense, if he were really reaching for a gun at the time, or two, there's no such thing as a snap defense,

but there is the battered woman's defense where you have been abused and abused and abused, and then you act. That is kind of like a diminished capacity, and I think that would probably be her best bet. So while she would be culpable for the shooting under Dr. Brian Russell's legal theory, she would have probably already gotten out by now.

Wouldn't you think, Alexis Tereschuk? I mean, you have investigated this case thoroughly. She was convicted, and if she had gone with a diminished capacity like battered women's defense, she would have already been out but now she's not even subject to parole till she's 69 no she has you're exactly right she has 50 years but the thing is that research has changed in the last 13 years and in cases that i've covered recently like the girl, the teen texting case, where she encouraged her boyfriend to kill himself and she was found guilty by the judge.

He said he really studied the research that had been given to him, which showed that teenagers brains are just not fully developed, which is why he did not throw the book at her. So if 13 years ago, this research wasn't available. And so now people could go back. And that's why your Kim Kardashian comes in. She has asked her high power lawyer, Sean Chapman Holly. She was part of OJ Simpson's defense team. She was Lindsay Lohan's defense attorney. She knows how to work a case. And she's asked her to go in and try to help this girl who was just 16 years old when the crime happened. So that there could be new evidence, things that could change the way that people look at how brains of teenagers.

Let me just follow up, Alexis, with some research that I had found. When she was just 16, there's no doubt, Centoria Brown got into a pickup truck on Murfreesboro Pike with a stranger, drove to his home, got in bed with him, and shot him in the back of the head with a.40 caliber. Now, according to this transcript, as he lay naked beside her, she states she did it and that she, quote, executed him. However, she says she believed the man who picked her up was reaching for his gun when she killed him.

Now, that's a different story from her being tied up and held prisoner in somebody's home, although that could have happened with the pimp. The issue in my mind... But the pimp sold her to this man is what she said. That's what she says, but a different transcript says she just got in his truck, went home with him and killed him that day. Those are the two conflicting stories. What is concerning me is sentencing young people to lie behind bars.

And I think that brings into our purview all the other things we're talking about, her upbringing and the fetal alcohol syndrome. Long story short, when you were 16 and you shoot somebody dead, you can be treated like an adult like she was. I think what we need now is the truth about what really happened. Ashley Wilcott, when you hear this version of the facts, does it change anything? Well, I do think it changes things because you certainly, the law is the law. In a court, a judge, and a jury, they have to apply the law to the facts. And so it is a little bit different when you hear those facts. But I also agree the research has changed drastically in the last 13 years. And there is very critical work being done in the state of Georgia by

attorneys who are appealing cases in which juveniles are sentenced to life sentences, because it is the equivalent of a death penalty for a juvenile, right? They're never going to get out. They're going to sit in jail. It's the equivalent and they are having some life. There's also actually life versus life without parole. If you get right. Yes. Which is now had the kibosh put on it, but life you could get out as early as seven to ten years sure that is what i know we don't know all the facts yet but whatever they are i do believe an investigation is in order to determine exactly what happened what was said at trial versus what her story is now, if they are different, and what sentence she really deserves. I want to pause very briefly and thank our partner who is making our investigation

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Code NANCY. Special savings. Only at LegalZoom savings only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom, thank you for helping business owners across America and for being our partner today. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.