Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Missing Mom and Preacher's Wife Vanish, Picking up Kids: Car Just Found

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

6:15 PM Saturday: Oklahoma Highway Patrol issues a ‘Missing Endangered’ Alert for Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley on behalf of the Texas County Sheriffs. By Sunday evening, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces they are joining the investigation into the women's “suspicious disappearance.” Jillian Kelley, a mom of four, serves as a secretary at Hugoton, Kansas First Christian Church, where her husband, Heath Kelley is the pastor. Veronica Butler has been locked in a years long custody battle with her children’s dad. Cole and Kendyl are with their paternal grandmother. Butler plans to host a birthday party for Kendyl’s birthday and makes the 45-minute drive to her hometown to pick them up. Kelley rides along.    Butler and Kelley miss their expected return home. Pastor Heath Kelley and Pastor Tim Singer drive in the direction they believe the women traveled.  South of Elkhart, Kansas, just three miles from the women’s destination,  the men see law enforcement surrounding Butler’s cars on the side of the road. They learn that Texas County Sheriff officers found the car abandoned.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy -  Attorney at TriangleDivorceLawyers.com  Dr. Nicole Vienna – Forensic Psychologist (specializing in trauma and neurodevelopmental disorders), CEO: Vienna Psychological Group, Inc.; Instagram: @drnicolevienna, Facebook: @vienna_psych_group Dan Corsentino – Former Police Chief, Former Sheriff (served on US Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board), and Private Investigator; Expert witness certified in Federal and State courts in the area of Police Policy John Elwood – Deputy Chief, Manatee County Search and Rescue; Twitter: @KarmatheSARdog; Principal Evaluator for the National Search Dog Alliance; Instructor/Evaluator National Association of Search and Rescue, 35 Years With Sarasota County Fire Department   Nicole Partin - Crimeonline.com investigative reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The desperate search for two Kansas moms, one of them a preacher's wife, who seemingly vanished into thin air on their way to pick up the children. Now we learn their car has been found. What, if any, clues does it reveal? I'm Nancy Grace. of missing people cases. I can't even count them all. But it's very rare that two women, two adults disappear at the same time. Think about the logistics of that.

Think about some guy coming up and saying, hey, get in my car. How's he going to wrangle two adult females into the car? Why? We're not going to run for it now? It's different. When you think about, for instance, Libby and Abby, the two little girls that were abducted and murdered in Delphi, they were literally taken off of a trestle bridge in plain view and directed, I believe at gunpoint, down the side of the hill underneath that trestle bridge and they were murdered. It's easier to control children or young teens, especially teens that have been sheltered and don't know what to do in that situation. But two adult females, moms, both of them, you'd think they would run for it or resist.

But as of right now, no sign of these two missing moms, Veronica and Jillian. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but straight out to Nicole Parton. Joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Nicole, take a listen to this. At 6.15 p.m. Saturday, Oklahoma Highway Patrol issued a missing endangered alert for Butler and Kelly on behalf of the Texas County Sheriffs. By Sunday evening, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announced they would be joining the investigation into Butler and Kelly's, quote, suspicious disappearance. Authorities have remained tight-lipped about any leads on the

women's whereabouts, releasing very few details in the case as we enter the fifth day since the women were last seen. Hey, Nicole Parton, hold on just one moment. Let me first go to Dr. Nicole Vianna joining us out of LA. Dr. Nicole is a forensic psychologist who specializes in trauma and neurodevelopmental disorders. She's the CEO of Vianna Psychological Group. Her CV is so long, I don't have time to read it all. Dr. Nicole, thank you for being with us. You know, a lot of times I hear when a woman goes missing, somebody will say, oh, she ran off with her boyfriend. What boyfriend? You think this preacher's wife is stashing a hot young boyfriend somewhere?

That did not happen. And it's very dismissive. I don't like it because it seems like here's a great example, Dr. Nicole Vienna. I don't know if you recall Stacey Peterson. She was married to a cop, Drew Peterson. She just disappeared. And all Peterson would say for months and months and to this day, she ran off with her boyfriend. Like it would be a cold day in H-E-double-L that most moms would leave their children for some guy. Really? As my grandmother would say, men are like buses.

A new one will come along every 15 minutes. Just wait. So you're going to leave your children? But here's the kicker. Not one, but two moms decide they're going to leave your children. But here's the kicker. Not one, but two moms decide they're going to leave their children and run off. That's BS, technical legal term. That did not happen. They did not go willingly, Dr. Nicole. It doesn't sound like it. I suspect that there was probably foul play involved on one party's end or the other. Yeah, that's a really good point, Dr. Nicole. One party's end or the other.

Again, with me, an all-star panel, but the first thing I like to do in addition to finding out about my victims, because Kathleen Murphy, poor Nicole Parton. Nicole, I'm getting there. Kathleen Murphy is with me, high-profile lawyer joining us out of North Carolina. She's at Triangle Divorce Lawyers,

and she used to say she was in domestic law, but that makes it sound like we're all sitting around the fireplace having hot chocolate domestic law. It's, you know, like putting two wet cats in a barrel when you go into court on a domestic, like a divorce or a custody. Kathleen, have you noticed every time sometimes a teen girl or an adult female goes missing? Same second verse, same as the first. She ran off with her boyfriend. But how often do you see a grown woman, not one, but two of them decide to abandon their children. Absolutely. It's very unusual to have two women who are disappearing at the same time, both of them mothers. It's highly unlikely that they have anything on their agenda, but what's in the best interest of their children

at that time? You're right. And you've seen so many custody cases where the moms go to the mat to hold on to the children and protect the children. That's what I'm saying. Nicole Parton, let's set up a timeline. Nicole joining us from crimeonline.com. Nicole, what do we know about, I understand one of the moms was collecting her children to throw a birthday party for them. Let's just start at the beginning. That's right. So the two women left Elkhart, Kansas on Saturday morning, heading to pick up Veronica's children for their birthday party. It was a 16 mile trip to Eva, Oklahoma. They were actually going to a place called Four Corners Trading Post. You got to

give me a little bit more information, Nicole. They're leaving from where to go to where? It's Elkhart, right? Elkhart? Elkhart, Kansas. 16-mile trip. Okay. Elkhart, Kansas on Highway 95-ish and Road L. They were leaving from their hometown of Elkhart, Kansas. The two moms were traveling together early Saturday morning with plans to go a 16-mile trip

to pick up Veronica's two children for a birthday party. They never made it to Eva, Oklahoma, which is where they were headed. Nicole Parton, when I was preparing to discuss the case, I learned that Elkhart is actually, it's a small town. There's a little under 2,000 people that live there as of the last census. And that's important for one reason, it's a smaller suspect pool. And second, I find out, and correct me if I'm wrong on this geography, but it straddles, it's very close to the Kansas-Oklahoma state border. Is that right? That's correct. Now, another issue is it's a little under nine miles from the Kansas-Colorado border. Is that right? Yes, it is. Okay, here's the problem right there. Let me go to Dan

Corsentino joining us, former police chief, also served on U.S. Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board at dancorsentino.com. Here's the problem with that, Dan. You've got three jurisdictions involved, and I don't mean three cities in one state. I mean potentially Oklahoma, Kansas, and Colorado. Do you think they're talking to each other? Because a lot of times killers, missing people slip through the cracks when you're dealing with cross state boundary issues and, you know, interstate. Absolutely. The question is the timing issue between the jurisdictions and specifically the origination point and who's going to take the lead. The information that's being disseminated by the primary jurisdiction to the other jurisdictions and the accuracy of the information they have at the origination point as it evolves throughout the investigation. Take a listen to Sydney Sumner, CrimeOnline.com. Jillian Kelly, a mom of four, serves as a secretary at Hugaton, Kansas First Christian

Church, where her husband Heath Kelly is the pastor. The Kellys are planning a move to Indianola, Iowa, as Heath Kelly has been called as the new pastor of Willow Christian Church. Friendships among clergy families are easily made, and Pastor Tim Singer of Hugaton Assembly of God introduces the Kellys to mom of two, Veronica Butler. She's described by friends as kind and a gardening enthusiast. I want you to know more about the victims. Why? If you know more about the victims, the easier it will be to identify a perp if this kidnapping was not random.

And yes, I think it was a kidnapping or worse. What do we know about them? I mean, back to you, Kathleen Murphy, there's a big difference if you're looking for, hey, let's just say the Long Island serial killer victims. Many of them are prostitutes. I'm not judging. I don't care what they do for a living. As far as I'm concerned, their life is just as important as this preacher's wife life.

But what I'm saying is it's easier to identify potential suspects when you have a victim as in this case, as opposed to an escort, because the escort meets so many unknown males every day. She's meeting people online. She's meeting people out on the street. It could be anybody. So the fact that these two women had no connection with a large grouping of males, and I'm saying males because typically males are responsible for more violent crime, that gives us a much smaller suspect pool, Kathleen. And they were going to a birthday party. They were picking up a child. How suspect is that? It's very straightforward. We do it all day long. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, let's find out more about the second victim. You've heard about Jillian Kelly, a mother of four, secretary at the Kansas First Christian Church. Her husband, Heath Kelly, the pastor there. We know about her. What do we know about Veronica Butler? Listen. Veronica Butler has been locked in a years-long battle with her children's dad. Cole and Kendall are with paternal grandmother Tiffany Adams. Butler plans to host a birthday party for Kendall and makes the 45-minute drive to her

hometown of Eva, Oklahoma to pick them up. Jillian Kelly rides with Butler. Okay, back to you, Nicole Parton, joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Let's track it. They are driving, I believe you said 15 or 16 miles. Why would that take 45 minutes? It's a very rural area. Yes, 16 miles, but it's a very rural area. A lot of, it is 95, Highway 95, but then you're in a very rural two-lane area for a portion of the drive. So I imagine that slows it down a bit. Okay, that makes sense. They're not on an interstate where you can drive 75 miles an hour. Right.

They're in a 25 MPH zone for part of the time. So they've got a 45 minute drive to go throw a kid's birthday party. You'd think, what could go wrong? So tell me about their route. They were going from Elkhart to where? They were going to a location called Four Corners Trading Post, which is just south of Eva, Oklahoma. Four Corners Trading Post is in a very rural area of Oklahoma. Honestly, there isn't much there other than this trading post, which is an

intersection of four roads coming together. There's a lot of pig farms in the area, silos, grain feeders, and that's about it. So that is the meeting location where they're picking up Veronica's children for the birthday party. For those of you just joining us, Oklahoma police desperately searching for two Kansas moms who seemingly vanished into thin air. They were on their way to throw a kid's birthday party, one of the mom's child. One of these women, an avid gardener, and one of them, a preacher's wife. Now, how do these two women just vanish on a 45 minute drive to throw a kid's birthday party? How does that happen? We often hear about one woman going missing. Oh my goodness. I could name a million of them right now. Molly Tibbetts goes missing jogging. Karina Vetrano goes missing jogging. It

goes on and on and on. Remember Miss Fletcher? She goes missing in Tennessee and we find out a convicted felon has taken her and killed her. She was out jogging. We hear that a lot. We hear about women leaving the mall and walking to their car. Bam, they're gone. We hear about women going to a nightclub or a bar or a restaurant. They go missing like Natalie Holloway, just boom women. And again, these are not women that are on the corner selling crack. These are not escorts that meet, you know, any number of men doing their job. These are two moms on the way to throw a birthday party for a kid. So it's a very, very unlikely scenario. Joining me right now, a special guest, John Elwood, Deputy Chief at Manatee County Search and Rescue. You can find him at Manatee County, S-A-R, searchandrescue.org. John, thank you for

being with us. You have looked for a lot of people. How often do two adults go missing at the same time? I keep saying that because it's very rare and it's a conundrum and try to figure it out. In my experience, I've never encountered that type of scenario. Usually, it's one person that is missing. And in the instance of a vehicle, you usually don't have what we refer to in the industry as a scent article, a piece of clothing, a hat, something that the person has worn. So lots of times that kind of hampers the investigation. Okay, hold on. I want to pick up on something you just said, John Elwood. John, you said a scent article.

Do you believe that in this case, possibly in the vehicle, the abandoned car, there was a scent vehicle? Because right now, we're trying to nail down the facts. Nobody's talking, which I also find very odd. But don't you believe there would have been a scent article left in the car? Or could the dogs get a scent off the inside of the car? So in most cases, especially where you were talking about they were in a rural town and the weather, it's still kind of cold. One would think that there would be, you know, a sweater, a jacket, maybe a stocking cap. In the event that we're not able to procure a scent article, we can take swabs of the steering wheel, the dash, the door panel, the seats where the people had been sitting

and introduce that to one of the canines. And then we can more or less make an improvised scent article from that. An improvised scent article. Wow. Okay. That makes perfect sense to me. So in your mind, is that what they should be doing right now? Yes, ma'am. There's a couple options that they have. First and foremost, you can use what's referred to as a tracking or trailing canine. They're scent specific, meaning that they would look for one particular person. So whether you have a scent article or you improvise a scent article, you could try to see if you got a direction of travel from the vehicle, from the people,

meaning that did they have some type of mechanical problem with the car and say they were in that remote area and they had no cell coverage, they may have decided to start walking towards their destination. Oh, gosh. Yes. If they had had car trouble. That's a really good point. And from what I'm understanding, Cole Parton, the car was found abandoned about three miles from the destination. Explain. That's right. The car was found three miles short of the destination. Again, very rural area on Highway 95, close to Road L. The car was found around 1030 a.m. So that's about an hour and a half after the ladies had left to go pick up the children. You know, I find it interesting that law enforcement is saying they find their disappearance suspicious. OK, we know that. I guarantee the

families of these two women have told them, wow, this is suspicious. I need to know a little bit more. They're also saying at risk. That tells me they also don't think these two women wandered off on their own. Have you ever heard of like girls getaways? I doubt you have those, Nicole Barton, because you actually have 10 children, 1-0-10 children. Not a lot of getaways for you. But I hear about other women having weekend get togethers and girls weekends. That is not what happened here. Some impromptu alone time.

Let's talk about the vehicle because to me, that's the biggest other than who they may know in their lives that may wish to do them harm. And that could be an ex. It could be a husband. It could be a boyfriend. It could be, as I said, an ex-boyfriend or husband. It could be the delivery boy. It could be the guy at the grocery store.

It could be a coworker. So I'm not limiting this to intimate partners. Anybody in their sphere is the first person you look at. And then you go out like neighbors, neighbors, the next neighborhood over people that they may have worked with in the past. You start looking out. And of course, you look for men. I promise you a woman did not hold them at gunpoint and make them leave their car. Biggest clue other than their pool of people around them, their inner circle, you look at that car. I want to hear everything you know, Nicole Parton, about this car found abandoned. We know that the car was a small blue SUV, that the car belonged to Veronica.

I spoke to an eyewitness last night who says that she was traveling on that same road and passed by and saw the abandoned car. Her story is that at least one of the windows were smashed, was broken on that car. Now, police have not confirmed that, but the eyewitness said that she saw a window smashed on the car. She also says that she made a 911 call to report this abandoned car on the side of the road in this rural area. We know that local authorities came out and within hours, the local authorities had contacted the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and asked for assistance. Their latest statement about the car says that based on information obtained from the victim's vehicle, investigators believe they have evidence of foul play.

All of this surrounding the found car. Time is ticking by and we all know the reality of missing people. The likelihood of them being alive after the first 72 hours is very low. Please act. We are looking for the victims of a double disappearance, which is extremely rare. Two young mothers on the way to throw a kid's birthday party vanish just three miles before their destination. If you have information, dial 1-800-522-8017. 1-800-522-8017. You think that because you're a citizen sleuth, you could be wrong or it doesn't matter? Let me remind you about the citizen sleuth that realized she had spotted the van of Gabby Petito. We now know Deb, but we would never have found her remains. We wouldn't know what had happened to her if it had not been for red, blue, and methane, I believe was their handle online. They spotted Gabby Petito's

Ford Transit. They had heard about the story. They immediately called it in. You know where Gabby's remains were? In dispersed camping way out west. What is dispersed camping? That means there's no porta potty. There's no hookup. There's no parking area or street lights. You're out there with the coyotes and the rabbits and all the creatures that live in the wild west. That's where she was, what was left of her. If it had not been for a citizen jumping in we may not know what happened to Gabby but back to this case two missing moms straight back out to Nicole Parton crimeonline.com investigative reporter Nicole I want to hear everything you just told us, plus more. Because our biggest clue right now is that abandoned blue SUV. We think a Toyota or a Kia. I find it really interesting. LA law enforcement has not put that

out there. Maybe someone saw something at a red light or a gas station? I don't know. Maybe they didn't, but maybe they did. I find that really interesting. Was the car running? Were the doors locked? Were the women's cell phones in the car? Were their pocketbooks in the car? Was the birthday cake in the car? What was it on the right side of the road? Was it pulled off the road? Was the hood up showing distress that something's wrong with the engine? All of these questions and more I need answered, but I'm not getting the information from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation at all. I find that curious and it leads me to wonder because I've never had a problem with Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation ever. why are they not releasing it?

What do they know that we don't know? Back to the car. Can you answer any of those questions, Nicole Parton? We do know that it was parked on the right side of the road. So as they were driving, the car was just pulled over on the side of the road. So as they were driving, the car was just pulled over on the side of the road. Again, we know it was three miles from this Four Corners Trading Post, which is the location where they were to meet the grandmother and pick up the children. I am being told by a witness that the hood was not up. There was no signs of car trouble. There was no one seen walking around the car as if trying to put gas in a car or figure out what's wrong with the car.

A witness did say, according to them, that they saw at least one window smashed out of that car. Those are things that we know. I'm also being told that the last cell phone ping from the ladies to two moms' phones were from that location where the car was found. Other than that, we're not being told what was inside the car. Personal belongings, we're not being told if they were in the car. Now, one thing I've learned, Nicole Parton, and again, we're trying to put together the pieces and we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. That's why it's not making sense to us. Another thing I learned is that police let it slip that there was something found in the car that convinced them of foul play. Do you know what it was? I don't know. I do know that within hours of the car being found by local authorities, they did reach

out to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation within hours and said, we need help on this case. And again, in their latest statement, they said that based on information obtained from the victim's vehicle, that's the wording they used. Investigators believe there is evidence of foul play. They aren't telling us what that evidence is, but something that they found in the vehicle leads them to believe something very bad happened. Okay, there's one positive thing out of all that, John Elwood, Deputy Chief, Manatee County Search and Rescue, is that they are calling the women victims. They're not buying into the same old story. They're off with their boyfriend or they

wanted a girl's getaway. B.S. So interesting. They find something in that vehicle that convinces them a foul play. Was it blood? Was it one of the ladies or both of the ladies clothing? Was the cell phone cracked? I know the window was broken. So everybody on the panel, we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in if you have an idea. Any idea. We're brainstorming here. Was it a bullet, Nancy?

Did somebody shoot the vehicle to get them to stop? That's a really good question because we know the window, one of the windows was busted out. Hey, Nicole Parton, was it a driver's window, passenger front, back? The witness said that she didn't stop. She kept driving. So it was, it would have been on the driver's side, either the front or the back window, but it was on the driver's side because she could easily see the broken window. Okay.

That told me a lot right there. So it was on the driver's side. It could easily have been, if it's a two lane, the only way to pass the car on a two lane is on the driver's side. You're right. Kathleen Murphy wasn't a bullet. Is that why it was, Is that why the glass was smashed out? Guys, we're brainstorming here. We're thinking. We're using the only tools we've got,

a little bit of information and a brain trust of all of these guests. Again, the tip line 800-522-8017 with every minute that ticks by, there is less likelihood of a positive outcome in finding these two missing moms. Back to you, John Elwood. I just learned a lot from Nicole Parton and especially from the witness she managed to track down. There was no indication of car trouble. You know, when a lot of people run out of gas, they'll open up their gas valve and you can see that it's open or they'll stick a rag in it and you know, oh, they ran out of gas. And hey, Nicole, do you know when she saw the vehicle as it relates to when the women went missing? When did she see the vehicle? She saw the vehicle shortly after 10 a.m. She couldn't

remember the exact time, but piecing it together, she was saying somewhere between like 1010 and 1020 in that time frame. On March 30th? On March 30th? Correct. So is that in the morning, did you say? In the morning. And we were being told by the police that they found the car at 1030 a.m. So they were on the scene within minutes of her seeing the vehicle. And question, Nicole Parton, what time did the mom set out for the birthday party? We're being told they left around 9 a.m. Oh, my stars. Dan Corsentino, that is a very tight timeline. They leave. Hey, and Nicole, there's not a time change, is there? There is not. In one hour, Dan Corsentino, it's over.

They leave around nine-ish to go for a 45-minute drive to throw the kids' birthday party. By 10 o'clock, their car is pulled off the road. We know there wasn't a car crash. We don't think they ran out of gas. They didn't have engine trouble. The window is smashed on the driver's side, and they're gone. That all happened in less than one hour, Dan.

Absolutely. And there's a number of, as you said so eloquently, pieces of the puzzle. One of the questions that surfaces is, was this a car dump? Possibly the crime, alleged crime, took place prior to, and the suspect wanted to get rid of the vehicle and dumped it. The second option is carjacking. And the carjacking could have taken place at any time in that one hour time period. You know, we mentioned who would be a suspect at one time. We'll talk about that later, but we know these two women were low-risk victims, and these two women that were friends would have done everything they could, I believe, to try and protect themselves from the threat that came to them. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace straight out to john elwood manatee county search and rescue go ahead john nancy the

new information being revealed about the broken window on the driver's side of the vehicle could provide a valuable clue. When glass breaks, especially you figure they're driving at speed, it may fly into the person's face, cutting them. One way you could find out if a person was injured is by the use of a human remains detection canine that those dogs are trained to alert on the most microscopic amounts of blood. It may not be visible to the naked eye, but the dog would be able to smell that and then show an alert. And then that gives you another piece of the puzzle if the person or persons were injured. Wow. Good point. Guys, there is another piece of the puzzle

we must address. Take a listen to Sidney Sumner, Crime Online. also in the midst of several legal issues. He was charged with two counts of domestic assault and battery in late February. Despite those charges being dismissed, Rickman was last in court March 7th in regards to a felon in possession of a weapon conviction. He was expected to report for inpatient rehab in Oklahoma City on March 22nd for six months of treatment, possibly ruling him out as a suspect in Butler and Kelly's disappearance. Good Lord in heaven. Straight out to you, Kathleen Murphy, a veteran trial lawyer in domestic relations. That was a mouthful from Sidney Sundry. Did you hear all that?

All that as it relates to Veronica Butler, age 27, ex. The ex is nothing but trouble. Ladies, if you're listening, there's a lot of men out there. Don't pick one out of all the men that has a rap sheet. Just trust me on that. Back to you, Kathleen Murphy. Did you hear this? The one that got my attention the most is felon in possession of a firearm. That means he's already a convicted felon. Then he has a gun. He's not supposed to have a gun. Again, he has not been named a person of interest or a suspect. However, we also have learned he was expected to report for rehab on March 22 for six months. He could be ruled out just based on this. So, okay, all that in mind, weigh in Kathleen. Absolutely. I heard that he is in rehab for six months. I also read that there are other family members on the father's side that may have an interest in stopping some of this visitation.

Well, you know what, Kathleen Murphy, let's look at what we know. Nicole Parton, this was an arranged birthday party. The moms were having to drive 45 minutes to get there. They were supposed to meet up with the grandma and the children for the pickup at the trading post at Four Corners Trading Post. So this was arranged. Who knew they were going there? Who would have possibly intercepted them?

Or was this just some random carjacking or a random attack by some other creepy dude that we don't know. That's less likely, but entirely possible. Nicole, tell me about the setup for the birthday party. And would you really take not only the mom and the friend? What we know is that a court order had been signed by a judge in family court saying that Veronica could have supervised visits with the children. Those were arranged by a judge and Veronica was to travel to this Four Corners Trading Post. That was the legal required meeting spot for the pickup of the children. We know that the grandmother was allowed to be there. The grandmother's live-in boyfriend was allowed to be there. Veronica and Veronica's friend, Jillian,

is also named in this court document saying that Veronica's friend, Jillian, is to be there for these supervised visits. So all of those individuals knew about the meeting place, whether they had told other friends and family members, we don't know. But there is legal documentation in family court that this was ordered by a judge, this meeting place on this date with these people involved. Let me ask you something. The grandma was supposed to meet them at Four Corners Trading Post. Is that the paternal grandma or the maternal grandma? Is it Veronica's grandma? It is the paternal. It is the father's mother, the father of the children, his mother.

Two missing moms. Straight out to Kathleen Murphy. What, Kathleen? When somebody has a rap sheet that their sex abuse allegations made and supervised visitation, I don't understand why the meeting place was not at a police officer station or a police department or more public than this Four Corners Crossroad. That's concerning to me. Dr. Nicole Viena joining us, forensic psychologist and CEO of Viena Psychological Group. Dr. Nicole, weigh in. Well, I think the custody issue brings up an interesting point to this whole story because we know that custody arrangements are generally prone to conflict, right? And that's partly because of the high emotions that are involved behind there. The children are usually the last tie between the parents.

And so when we see things like prior sexual abuse allegations in the background, we're going to suspect danger. One party is going to be upset with the other, and they're going to maybe act in ways that aren't well thought out, reckless, impulsive. And we do know that the ex-spouse does have a history of substance abuse. Like you mentioned, he is a felon. He carries a gun. We know that there was foul play with the car. So tying it all together, it kind of makes you wonder if the ex was concerned for his children, not thinking very clearly and maybe waiting and looking for mom and friend to come by and something just terrible happened. So I really suspect that this, you know, is due to this custody dispute and the high emotions

that are involved and the impulsivity that goes along with people that are involved in these disputes. And of course, John Elwood, Deputy Chief, Manatee County Search and Rescue, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It is a duck. However, before we throw all the blame on the ex, I'm not so sure about that. This needs a lot more investigation because if he was in rehab at the time this went down, it's not him. But I agree with Dr. Nicole, that's the first place you look. But John, that's always the first place you look is at the X. Yes, ma'am. You usually have the list of of potential suspects, so to speak, or persons

of interest. The fact that if they did determine the window was indeed shot out and the former spouse had firearm possessions of a felon, you know, they can also use dogs are trained to do many different tasks. You could bring in a firearms canine that can check for gun residue. You can check for the presence of a firearm. And then, you know, the wax paraffin test that you can use to check to see if somebody has gunshot residue on their hands or clothing. So I'm sure that there's a lot of pieces that the police and the investigating agencies haven't released that would bring more clarity to the situation. Veronica Butler, age 27, and Jillian Kelly in her 30s, they're not the only victims. Between them, they have six children. And in my experience prosecuting major felonies,

investigating and reporting on them my entire career, there's no replacement for your mother. Six children between them wondering, where's mom? Won't you help us? Tip line 800-522-8017. There's still time to bring them home alive. Let's stop and remember American hero, Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone, shot in the line of duty, Beaumont, Michigan. Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone leaves behind beautiful wife Hillary and three daughters, Abby, Olivia, and Brooklyn, now serving a life sentence without their dad.

We remember American hero, Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.