Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MISSING TEXAS MOM SUZANNE SIMPSON’S DNA ‘FOUND ON HUBBY’S SAW’

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

The arrest affidavit for Brad Simpson, accused of murdering his wife, provides a detailed timeline of his activities the day before he reported her missing. The husband and father spent the day running suspicious errands, some of them in front of his 5-year-old daughter. The day after neighbors overheard the Simpsons fighting, Brad Simpson’s truck filled and emptied as he drove around San Antonio. First, Simpson placed his phone in “lockdown mode,” preventing location tracking. Forced to rely on surveillance footage, police spotted Simpson’s truck at a grocery store at 12:33 a.m. The truck bed was empty except for an ice chest. The next morning, when Simpson took his daughter to school, two full white trash bags had been added to the bed. Later, when Simpson was seen at a Boerne Whataburger drive-thru more than an hour later, police observed a heavy-duty trash can and a firewood rack weighing down an object covered by a blue tarp. Law enforcement uncovered damning evidence that led a grand jury to indict Simpson not only for tampering with evidence but also for murder. Lab testing revealed Suzanne Simpson’s DNA on a reciprocating saw from Simpson’s toolbox. In his first court appearance, Brad Simpson wore red prisoner attire with his hands cuffed in front of him. He swayed back and forth in his swivel chair, speaking only to confirm his identity and converse with his attorney. Although the hearing was brief, Simpson was observed with what has been described as a sly grin. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Jeff Horny - Longtime Friend of Suzanne and Brad Simpson   Caryn Stark -  Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Ben Powers -  Criminal Defense Attorney, Facebook: Legal Powers PLLC, https://legalpowers.com  Brian Fitzgibbons  - Director of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security, uspasecurity.com, Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security, Fmr. Marine and Iraq war veteran  Dr. Kendall Crowns  - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Zachary-Taylor Wright  - Trending Digital Reporter with MySA; website: MySanAntonio.com; Twitter: @Zachthereporter   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Missing Texas mom, luxury realtor Suzanne Simpson's DNA just found on her husband's handheld reciprocating saw. Let that sink in a moment. Her DNA is on her husband's handheld reciprocating saw. Why? I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. They met in college at the University of Texas. Nice guy, charismatic, engaging. You know, Suzanne was a little tiny thing. But for Suzanne, it wasn't perfect at home. It's just tragic, man. I can't even imagine. She didn't deserve that at all. If just the thought of Suzanne's body out decomposing in a trash site or a disposal site, it's getting worse. The handheld reciprocating saw belonging to the husband absolutely has Suzanne Simpson's DNA on it.

Why? Why would that be there? Take a listen to what the Olmos PD chief had to say. So we're holding out hope that maybe, you know, maybe she's trying to be away from the home to get away from that situation. That's not totally uncommon. But what is uncommon, what is unusual is that this was a woman who worked and was very dependable and loved her children and was always in contact with her children and her family and her friends. We would love for her to be alive, obviously. There's nothing concrete that says she's not alive. And again, I owe it to the family. We all owe it to the family to speak of her in a way where other people have been found,

like I said, injured, in distress, lost, troubled, hiding away. All of those things are possible. That from our friends at WOAI. Joining me in all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning right now. This is not the update I wanted to report to you tonight. First out to Zachary Taylor Wright joining us, a trending digital reporter with My Essay, My San Antonio. Zachary, thank you so much for being with us. Explain to me how the husband's reciprocating saw. You know what? Just pause.

Zachary, I want to hear everything you've got to say, but for people that don't know what a reciprocating saw is, let me go to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us. The chief medical examiner in Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, the Texas jurisdiction, esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine, TCU. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you so much for being with us. Before I get into your usual topics, and that is the discovery of bodies, what you can tell from bodies, what you can tell from an autopsy, Could you explain and demonstrate what is a reciprocating saw? Certainly. So reciprocating saws are saws that use a blade. I actually have mine here. It's a large, fairly large saw. It has a blade that goes backwards and forwards, which is the reciprocating movement of the saw. And they can be used to cut through metal, wood, bone, tissue, you name it. They use them in the meat cutting industry to cut apart cattle. Hold on, let me say that again.

Could you turn that on one more time, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Sure. Jeff Horny is joining me right, I heard it, thank you. Jeff Horny is with me right now. I heard it. Thank you. Jeff Horny is with us right now, joining us from San Antonio. Longtime friend of both Suzanne and Brad Simpson, her husband. Jeff Horny, I don't know how you can sit there and look at that saw. It looks like a giant version of the electric knife people use at Thanksgiving and Christmas to cut a turkey or a roast or something. Sure. He knew what he was doing. Look at that. Knowing Suzanne. It's terrible, sad and disgusting, actually. And he's a hunter. You know, if you've used one of those saws, you know that it's not real clean. It doesn't just make a beautiful, clean cut.

And yes, I saw him in the courtroom and he looked like he'd been doing pushups for months. You know, he looks like a thug is what he looks like, what he's what he's turned out to be. So it's sad, man. We were talking to Jeff Horny, who's been a longtime friend of not only Suzanne, the missing mom, but the husband. Zachary Taylor Wright, thank you for holding. A trending digital reporter with MySA, My San Antonio. Zachary, again, thank you for being with us. I want to backtrack just a moment.

You know, I just heard Jeff Horny state that the husband, who is presumed innocent under the law. These are just allegations right now. Zachary, I don't know how him being a hunter has anything to do with his wife's DNA being on a reciprocating. So, oh, I do. I do know the connection he made. He was making the connection that the saw could be, let me just say contaminated or still caked with animal detritus from prior hunting trips. I don't know a nice way to say it. That's why I'm searching for the words. But Zachary Taylor Wright, tell me how and where this reciprocating saw was discovered. So the reciprocating saw was discovered in Brett's possession in their, I believe, in their family home. But it was hidden away, which is part of his accusations against him is that he attempted to conceal it from investigators.

And of course, the DNA did link back to Suzanne. Zachary, you stated that the DNA is found on Simpson's saw, but where was the saw? The reciprocating saw was found in Brad Simpson's toolbox. You know, Zachary Taylor Wright, joining us from my San Antonio. Zachary, I understand that the husband, Brad Simpson, tried to hide the saw. Absolutely. So that's part of the accusations made against him is that he attempted to conceal the saw from investigators initially. And so when they were able to find it and link it back to Suzanne, they charged him with tampering with evidence. Well, if it's right there in his toolbox, I don't understand how he's trying to hide it.

I'm certainly not taking his side. But, you know, Ben Powers joining me, high profile defense attorney at Legal Powers. Ben, the worst thing you can do if this ever makes it to a jury is for the prosecutor to state something in opening statements like, yes, and he tried to hide the saw. And then it comes out that he didn't. Because if you're wrong as a prosecutor on one fact, it taints everything else. It taints your good facts. So when you stand up in front of a jury and you say he tried to hide the saw, because you know what? The hiding part is the, the big indicator that something nefarious has occurred being powers. How do I know she didn't try to use the saw one time and cut her finger on it? I mean, it could have been a million things.

But the fact that he then tried to hide it puts it in a whole nother light, Ben Powers. Yeah, I agree. I think it's important that if you're going to use an accusation that he tried to hide the saw, and it turns out in his toolbox, obviously where that toolbox was found is going to be key to describing it as trying to hide it. But I agree with what you just said. You don't want to lose credibility with the jury by overstating or trying to extend your proof beyond what your proof actually can show. And so I think the importance for the saw in this context is how it's thread in the larger tapestry of the story.

And so I wouldn't unnecessarily try to extend it past its value, which is her DNA is on the saw. And for the state, that's a good fact. In defense, that's certainly a problem that we're going to have to address at trial. Let me nail this down, Zachary Taylor Wright. If the saw with his wife's DNA on it, and you know, another thing I got to find out, Zachary, we may not know it yet. Is it blood? Because just go with me for a moment. Do I believe this is true?

No. Could one juror believe it? Absolutely. What if she was using the saw and she cut herself? Do I believe this luxury real estate mom was out working with a reciprocating saw? No, I don't. Okay. But that is a legitimate argument to be made to a jury or Zachary.

What if it is bone? Now that's a whole nother can of worms. What if it is hair, hair, scalp? It could be a number of things that would clearly tell a jury that the saw was used on her to dismember her. So, A, I got a nail down. Is it true he tried to hide it? And you know what, Zachary? When you don't know a horse, look at his track record.

We already know he asked a friend. As a matter of fact, I believe you told me this. He asked a friend to hide a gun and the friend hid the gun in a false wall and the gun was found. And the friend, of course, blabbed. He told me to hide it. So we know he has a track record of hiding evidence. Now, that's one thing, but that doesn't prove to me he tried to hide this saw. I need to know how did he try to hide the saw? Where are we getting that?

So that comes directly from the charges against him, but we don't have the exact details on where police found the saw other than it being in his toolbox. So your points are completely accurate, and we also don't know precisely what DNA they found on the saw. Brian Fitzgibbon is joining me. Brian is the director of operations for USPA Nationwide Security, who leads teams of investigators all around the country trying to find missing people. Brian, just go with me for a moment. The saw in the toolbox, that's not damning. That's not incriminating. That means nothing to me.

I need to know what part of DNA, what type of DNA is it? For instance, if it's hair and scalp, it's over for him. If it's just a little blood, well, that could have an innocent explanation. Not that I believe it, but it could. So what about this, Brian? If the toolbox itself, we know the saw is in the toolbox, but if the toolbox itself, let's just say was buried in the backyard. Okay. That indicates nefarious intent. If it was flung in a river, we have to know more facts before we

can just blurt out it was hidden. Yeah. As attorney Ben Powers just said, we're looking at a whole tapestry of things laid out in this charging document. So where it was concealed, how it was concealed is certainly going to come out later. But there was a reason that investigators put that in the documents. OK, we see him concealing the cell phone. We see him concealing the guns. Now we read about him concealing the saw.

They're laying out a pattern of behavior from from Brad Simpson here. You know, Brian, I gave up cursing or I said I was giving up cursing when I had the twins. But on this special, special occasion, let me just say they damn well better show me later because Karen Stark joining me, a renowned psychologist, TV, radio trauma expert. You can find her at Karen Stark joining me, a renowned psychologist, TV, radio, trauma expert. You can find her at karenstark.com. Karen, you and I lived through the O.J. Simpson trial. May he rot in hell. One little bitty thing. The glove.

One little bitty thing. And I guarantee you, Karen Stark, if I could have gotten in that courtroom and gone up to Simpson, I would have gotten that glove on his hand. No question. But that one thing, that one thing tainted the whole case. It messed up the whole case. Like here, if the state says he hid it and then you can't prove he hid it, a technical legal term, they're screwed. You know, I would think, Nancy, that they would not say that he was tampering with the evidence or hiding it unless there was actually a reason. Stop. Dr. Kimball's crown is demonstrating what a reciprocating handheld saw is. Does that come with another blade, a detachable blade?

Yes, it comes with multiple different blades, depending on what you're trying to saw up. It can come with ones that'll work on a metal. It also comes with ones that'll trim trees, things of that nature. Let's see it. For those of you just joining us, medical examiner, dr kendall crowns is demonstrating a reciprocating saw go ahead okay thank you dr crowns you know to zachary taylor right, the big bombshell tonight is that Suzanne's DNA is found on that reciprocating saw.

But there is other evidence that's extremely disturbing. The problem with the reciprocating saw is that leading up to tonight, we were looking for a body. Because nobody, wouldn't you agree, Jeff Horny, there's no way Suzanne would have stayed away from her children this long? No, absolutely not. So that means we're looking for a body. But now that the reciprocating saw has entered the scene with her DNA on it, that means he is very likely been dismembered. That is going to make the discovery of her remains much more difficult. What does that mean to a prosecutor? That means this may very well be a no body case, as in there will never be a body discovered.

But what else do we know? Zachary Taylor Wright joining us from my San Antonio. We were just describing Brad Simpson going out for a Whataburger. He certainly did not lose his appetite in light of his wife missing. Now, I know I'm projecting Zachary Taylor, right? But when I learned my fiance had been murdered, I lost down to 89 pounds. The thought of food literally made me sick, nauseous. And I went so long.

I remember the first thing I ingested and it was orange juice and something my mom had in the fridge. So I know that's just my experience. But when I hear about Brad Simpson in the middle of his wife missing, pigging out at Whataburger, I'm not a shrink or a dietician, but that just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, we don't know exactly what he purchased at Whataburger so far, but we do know that he did in fact stop at Whataburger with some, we'll say suspicious items in his trunk that he later unloaded after making two separate stops. And we also know, according to the arrest warrant affidavit, he's accused of burning a couple of electronics as well at a Bandera home.

First of all, he puts his phone in, quote, lockdown mode. Brian Fitzgibbon is joining us, USPA Nationwide Security. I don't know what lockdown mode means. I guess that means like airplane mode, right? This is going to go one step beyond that, Nancy. So once that phone enters lockdown mode, you have no data being transmitted from that phone to the cloud, to any towers. So tracking Brad Simpson's movements with the phone would become nearly impossible at that point. Ben Powers joining me, high profile lawyer with legal powers. Ben, kind of reminds me of Brian Koberger.

Just so happens he turns his phone off exactly the time the four University of Idaho students are murdered in their beds. What a coinkydink, Ben. I do agree that him turning off his phone is certainly not a good practice in the defense. You know, it definitely is consistent with trying to hide his activities, where he's going, what he's doing. There are other layers of allegations in the warrant against him. The show, he was pretty active after the altercation that he had with Suzanne and that activity involved going to Home Depot to get different items like trash bags, tarps, concrete, buckets, things like that.

There is the discovery. Can we talk about lockdown, Ben Powers? Ben Powers, the phone being put in lockdown mode. Is that the same thing as airplane mode or is it something more? What is it? It's something more. It's something that's intended to avoid

hitting those pings on the towers so that he could conceal his movements. Okay. The thing I guess he wasn't banking on was his car had GPS on as well. So it kind of defeated the purpose of what he hoped to achieve. You know, Ben Powers, would you agree that at this juncture in our technological world, a jury is going to view putting your phone in airplane mode or lockdown as being as bad as placing you at the scene.

I mean, if he had had any sense at all, he would have left his phone on at his home, but instead he put it in lockdown. So I think it has a very nefarious or sinister connotation to juries because juries didn't just fall off the turnip truck, Ben Powers. They don't have their phone in lockdown. They may not even know how to find lockdown on their phone. So that is going to signal to them that something sinister was happening. And I agree, but the problem the state still is going to have is that's all proof that would come in after the fact, after the allegation that he killed Suzanne. They don't have anything before.

They don't have any premeditation, any planning before. This is all post. And so they're still going to have a problem with establishing, you know, was this a voluntary manslaughter? Ben Powers, you're right. They've got a problem. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jeff Horney is joining us, longtime friend of Suzanne and Brad Simpson's. You know, Jeff, how exactly do you know them? Who did you know first? I knew Suzanne first, and then I met Brad after that, before they even knew each other. So how would you describe him?

You know, he, he was a different dude. He was a little weird, a little different, but, you know, he was, he was always, you know, smiling and, and I'll be honest with you that being a year younger than me, I didn't see him a lot. The only time I saw him was back at the frat house and everybody was drinking beer and, you know, rushing our fraternity and getting to know him and trying to get him to. OK, well, I don't need to hear about rush season. What I want to hear about, Jeff Horny, is when you said he was odd. That's what I want to hear about. You know, the old quote, everyone is odd, but me and the, and I think the a bit queer at times, what that means. Uh, and

everyday parlance is everybody thinks everybody else is weird, but themselves. Okay. So when you say he was odd, you just can't put that out there and leave it hanging. What did he do that was odd? Well, he never went anywhere with Suzanne. She was always by herself. Football games by herself to watch her daughter's cheer. Parties by herself. Never Brad was was was very rarely there. So that was that was that was odd to me.

You know, I don't know what else you want me to say. I was around them because Suzanne was a friend of mine. She's the one would not call me and, and invite me. Uh, he, he is a, um, you know, again, the, the, the community is, is a, uh, a party driven community. You know, there was a lot of partying and alcohol, and there's this group of mainly Alamo Heights men that raise money for underprivileged folks. And they, they, the Cavaliers is what they're called. And he was a Cavalier. So, you know, he had some good qualities, I think. You know, I think he might have been an okay father and took his kids hunting and fishing. I just know he was not a very good husband. I don't know that allegedly murdering the mother of your children qualifies as being a good father. Hey, Zachary Taylor Wright,

got a question for you. I'm trying to go along with the police and these recent court filings as to everything that they have uncovered with his phone in lockdown mode. Police had to go to extreme methods, a gathering surveillance video from all over homes, businesses, red lights, you name it. Let me talk to you about that because what they have put together without the use of his phone is Sir Vintle's video showing his truck at a grocery store, 1233 AM. Uh-oh, he must've had a snack attack. 1233 AM, he's at the grocery store, nothing in the bed of his truck, but an ice chest. Then when he takes his daughter to school the next morning, where was Suzanne? She, she normally takes him to school.

There are two full white trash bags added in the truck bed. Okay. Then when he's spotted at that Bernie Whataburger an hour later, now he's got a heavy-duty trash can with a firewood rack weighing down an object now covered with a blue tarp. Wow, a lot happened after he dropped his daughter off, huh? Absolutely. He also made a stop at a Home Depot where he bought concrete, a large bucket, and some, I believe, cleaning spray with bleach before he asked for directions to the nearest dump site. Simpson then stops at the Bernie Home Depot. Simpson buys concrete mix, a bucket, trash bags, and Clorox spray. On his way out, Simpson asks for directions to the nearest dump. Surveillance footage captures Simpson leaving the dump, then stopping for gas. The two white trash bags are no longer in the bed. Simpson then drives

to Medina, just west of the family home in Bandera. When Simpson is spotted again back in Bernie, the tarp and whatever was underneath it are gone. Simpson is on his way back from Bernie when he receives the call, but Suzanne isn't there for their daughter. Simpson picks her up around 3.30, then heads to his usual car wash with her. Video shows Simpson washing the interior around the driver's seat and rear left passenger seat, cleaning up what he claims were concrete stains in his car. Cleaning up the vehicle at the car wash.

You know, it's straight out of the playbook of Fotis Dulos. You know, Dulos. Char of the playbook of Fotis Dulos. You know, Dulos charged in the murder of his wife, a Connecticut mother of five. And police in Connecticut did an incredible job of piecing together video from all sorts of origins. You know what? Listen. Investigators believe Fotis Dulos parks his employees' red Tacoma a few blocks from Jennifer Dulos' home, then rides a bike the rest of the way, lying in wait for her to return. After attacking her in the garage, cops believe Dulos loads

Jennifer, dead or unconscious, in the back of her own SUV, then transfers her body into the Tacoma. Less than a week later, without his employees' knowledge, Dulos takes the truck again. Dulos is caught on video paying for a car wash in cash. His girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, later tells authorities he was trying to clean a coffee spill. Despite Dulos' efforts, investigators still managed to recover Jennifer Dulos' DNA from the passenger seat. To Ben Powers, high-profile defense attorney, why is it when there is a murder or somebody goes missing, suddenly husbands and or suspects turn into neatniks? You remember Jodi Arias did all the laundry after she murdered

Travis Alexander. Whoopsie! She left her digital camera in the laundry and you see her foot by the dead body in the digicam. Ouch, that hurt. Then Scott Peterson went on a laundry jag, doing all the laundry in the home and cleaning up. It goes on and on and on, Ben Powers. I think it's for the obvious reason that they've been very active and very busy and whatever it is. Wait a minute, Ben Powers, aren't you the veteran defense attorney? Because I'm hearing an echo.

You're just saying what I just said. What's your defense in this case of Simpson cleaning out his vehicle around the time his wife goes missing? I think at most you could just say it's odd because they still don't have a body. They don't have anything to say how he took her life, when he took her life, where he took her life, where he dismembered her, where she is, if he did dismember her. At the moment, all they have is DNA on a buzzsaw

that no one can really explain. There's a lot of speculation that can go into it. Okay, okay. Point well taken, Ben Powers. Point well taken. Zachary Taylor Wright, tell me about his movements that day. I want to talk about the tarp,

the bleach, the stops at the grocery at 1230 in the morning, then going to a dump site, then driving all around the area, making stops, and all those big bags of trash that then disappear every time he makes a stop in a surveillance video, something's been moved out of the bed of his trunk. So why is it that day suddenly it's in and out, in and out with the truck bed, just tons of trash

bags, a tarp for Pete's sake. I can't tell you why he did it. All I can do is tell you what, what he's accused of doing. And, is, like you mentioned, starting the morning with some suspicious activity, including driving out to Bernie after dropping off his daughter with only an ice chest in his trunk and the urn stuck in the bed of his truck. He's then seen in Bernie with large trash bins and then stops at Home Depot, where he's then seen at Whataburger with the large object covered by a tarp. And then he asks for directions to the nearest dump there in Bernie, and he's shortly seen on surveillance camera footage after visiting the dump with the two trash bags gone but he still has the large item covered with the tarp he then proceeds to drive to bandera which officers reportedly know from license plate readers and other surveillance footage that they see of his truck driving out there he then stops in bandera for only less than 15 minutes before he's then seen driving back towards Bernie with the tarp and the large item under the tarp being gone. He's then seen on surveillance footage picking up his daughter and all of those suspicious items from the back of his truck are gone.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jeff Horny, longtime friend of both Suzanne and Brad Simpson. I got to figure out how smart and or dumb is your friend Brad Simpson? Because it's like the same old playbook. Come on. This is the same exact thing Fotis Dulos did. Okay. There's a copious amount of blood found in the garage outside of Jennifer's car after she came back from drop-off that morning at school. She's never been found, but he, Traconis and his girlfriend, that's

certainly one way to put it. Michelle Traconas are caught on video driving all around town, going to, I believe it was five different trash receptacles, caught on video, throwing away sponges, rags, towels, all soaked in blood. The wife, Jennifer Dulos, is shirt and bra soaked in blood. So how smart is Simpson? Because he's just doing the same old playbook for Pete's sake. I don't think he's very smart. I'm, you know, I, after I heard that they found the, found her DNA on the reciprocating saw, he's, he's crazy. I mean, I don't know what he could have to get all that done in the few hours that he got done. I'd like to know what he was on to do that. You know.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know. Let me ask Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian, do you ever wish that a suspect, of course, he's presumed innocent, would do something different? I mean, don't you know that if the authorities have already gotten him on video at the Whataburger and the grocery store and the here and the there, they're going to have video of him disposing of stuff, although he may have disposed of it in a remote area where we're never going to find it. Yeah. Nancy, at this point that I certainly wish all the time that, you know, a defendant would come forward with with the truth. Right. But at this point, we're probably dealing with multiple disposal sites, potentially bodies of water, potentially different dump sites. And, you know, this this is going to be very complicated. But so far as a wish, of course, I feel that all the time. I wish he'd come forward and give us the

truth. A major update in the search for Suzanne Simpson, the missing Texas mom luxury realtor. Listen, the Park Police Department, along with the Texas Rangers, have charged Brad Chandler Simpson with murder in the death of his wife, Suzanne Clark Simpson. The Rangers have not stopped investigating this case as it has been turned over to the district attorney's department. The district attorney starts their process in the prosecution phase, even though we are not stopping our search at KENS5. And you were hearing the almost park chief of police, Fidel Vilejas, and Sergeant Dion Cockrell from the Texas Department of Public Safety. So now there is a formal charge. The district attorney now starting the prosecution phase. Will more be made clear?

Maybe not. We don't have a right to know all of the details surrounding this case. Straight out to Dr. Kendall Crowns, chief medical examiner in Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, Texas. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I'm thinking back on Fotis Dulos and how he and his lover, Michelle Chaconis, were hiding Jennifer, the mother of his five children. I mean, hiding, throwing away into dumpsters, into trash receptacles all over town. What man throws the same bag of trash in five different trash cans? Okay. Food for thought. But if we find, if we discover that Suzanne has been dismembered, that can mean anything from a leg to a digit. So how do you go about, if any part of her is found, connecting that back to Suzanne Simpson?

So what you would have to do is whatever you receive, you would get tissue, bone marrow, whatever you can pull off of it and then submit that for DNA. If it would happen to be a finger, you could actually get fingerprints from it if it's still intact enough and you could do it that way. But in this type of case with parts being found over time, that each part that is found is going to have to have DNA testing done on it to make sure it's from her but once you do find a part especially if it's like a large portion like a thigh or something like that you know she's been murdered you know she's been cut up joining me is renowned psychologist Karen start joining us from Manhattan Karen the loss of your mother is overwhelming, I've been told. But then the additional shock that she's been murdered, then the additional shock that she has been dismembered. Now, if the children don't accept that, they are left with the specter of, my mom's not dead.

She just abandoned me. So what are your thoughts? Well, no matter which way this turns out, Nancy, these children don't have a mother anymore. So there is so much they've been exposed to. They're going to need a tremendous amount of help. In my hand, the newly released charging document straight out to my San Antonio, Zachary Taylor Wright. Zachary, tell me in a nutshell about these allegations. And they are only that, allegations.

He has not been proven guilty. What do you know? So I know he's been charged with the murder of Suzanne Simpson. And I also know he's been charged with two counts of tampering with evidence. One is linked to the gun that he had his friend hide and the reciprocating assault that they alleged that he attempted to conceal from investigators. Then he was also charged with tampering with evidence with the intent to conceal his wife's body, although very little information has been presented on that charge. And then those are the charges he's facing, but they're all being questioned by his defense attorney. In the last hours, Brad Simpson in court before Judge Joel Perez. Will the attorneys

please identify themselves? Stephen Gilmore from Mr. Simpson. Okay. And sir, are you Brad That from our friends at KABB, Zachary Taylor. What happened in court? There is quite a bit that's set to happen in the coming months. Brad Simpson is set to be before the judge again on December 19th. Now, that's a motion to amend conditions, but very little has been filed with the court to tell us or offer any kind of insight into what his defense attorney might be looking to do. Although in the past, he has sought to reduce the bond amount and change the bond conditions to allow him to see his children. And then he'll be back before the judge on February 12th. Well, you're right. Again, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. Now, Brad Simpson is demanding that the charges be thrown out. Listen. There's a motion to quash the indictment, which I think will be litigated

at a later date. That's for our friends at KABB. To Ben Powers, in a nutshell, Ben, a nutshell. The state doesn't give a killer a gold star or an A plus plus because they get rid of the body. That's not happening. The state doesn't have to lay out in the indictment how the victim was killed. If they can prove it, sure, put it in there, for instance, by manual strangulation, by shooting with a weapon, by stabbing. But it doesn't matter. The state doesn't have to prove how she was killed. They just have to convince a jury that she has been killed and that he did it in this jurisdiction. Well, I disagree with that. They have to lay out what their theory of the killing is.

You know, there's a big difference between a voluntary manslaughter, which is an accidental killing, and a first-degree murder, which is a premeditated killing. It sounds like his defense attorneys are saying, you're saying he killed her, but you're not telling us how, when, where, any of the important details that go to your theory of premeditation. And so that's what they're attacking with their most recent violence, is the lack of proof that goes towards premeditation like the state is trying to make it out to be. So Ben Powers, let me understand. In your mind, the state has to lay out the exact mode of murder. So you've never encountered a case where there was no body to be found and the mode of murder was unknown? Are you telling me you've never seen a no body case indictment?

Well, what I'm saying is this most recent motion sounds like what I would call a deal of particulars. It's basically the defense throwing down the gauntlet and saying, OK, you say my client premeditatedly killed this person. I know what they filed, Ben. I know what the defense filed. We just had reporters say that. But then you said the indictment must show mode of murder. When I say mode, I mean, in this case, they're saying it's premeditated. So the indictment must include a factual allegation that supports premeditation being charged. For all of you would-be wife killers out there, an indictment does not have to show how you killed your partner. Okay?

You getting rid of the body is not going to help you. An indictment only has to allege that you committed premeditated murder, the jurisdiction, and the name of the victim. That's it. The rest can be proven at trial. The state is still building its case. If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Texas mom Suzanne Simpson or the movements of her husband, Brad Simpson, who is presumed innocent, please dial 210-209-2701. 210-209-2701. Let's remember now an American hero, David Ensbrunner, Atchison PD, Kansas, shot and killed in the line of duty.

Served 24 years in law enforcement, survived by wife, now widow, Carrie, and children without a father, Avery, Abby, and Celia. American hero, Sergeant David Enzbrunner. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.