Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mollie Tibbetts suffered fatal 'sharp force injuries'; Accused killer goes to court

Episode Date: August 24, 2018

The man charged with snatching Mollie Tibbetts as the Iowa college student was jogging, killing her and dumping her body in a rural cornfield made his first court appearance just as the medical examiner concluded she died from "multiple sharp force injuries." Nancy Grace looks at the latest with experts including lawyer Ray Guidice, forensics experts Karen Smith & and Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, psychologist Dr. Chloe Carmichael, lawyer Ashley Willcott, lawyer Kathleen Murphy,  and reporters Chuck Roberts & reporter Leigh Egan. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Does it make anybody feel better that Molly Chibbit's murder has become a political football with the people on the left, the people on the right, everybody's screaming their own opinion. You think that helps the family? This is what I know. Molly Tibbetts was attacked while she was jogging.

She threatened to call 911. She was chased down, brutalized, and murdered. I want justice. Now everybody's whining, oh, we vetted him. He was fine. He worked with us for four years. He was not fine. And this apparently is not the first time he tailed a young woman as she walked or jogged. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Take a

listen to this. After we got done interviewing Mr. Rivera, he led us to her location. And that location was near 460th Street or Avenue in rural Powsheek County. I'm sure you've driven around the area and it's a rural county and there are a lot of fields, a lot of woods, a lot of ditches. We have certainly had extensive searches throughout the county. We just didn't have success locating her. In this particular case,

she was found in a cornfield and there were corn stalks placed over the top of her. We are now learning new information that Molly was killed by multiple sharp blows. Joining me, Lee Egan, Crime Online investigative reporter. Chuck Roberts with Crime Stories. Renowned Atlanta defense attorney Raymond Giudice. Karen Smith, forensics expert. Dr. Daniel Bober, psychiatrist, Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, and Kathleen Murphy, family lawyer. Straight out to you, Raymond Giudice. G-U-I-D-I-C-E. What's your best defense? You should know.

You've represented killers, vehicular homicide defendants, the works. Now what do they do? He led them to the body, Ray. He led them to the body. Absolutely. Right now what I'm going to do is make sure, A, he doesn't do or say anything to make his case more difficult. Anything else. That's right, meaning talk to what we will soon find to be the jailhouse snitch

who, in his own efforts to save his life, says, oh, he was sleep-talking and told me and confessed to the crime. So we'll see those kind of things come up. But quite frankly, the defense has a very difficult problem here. They're trying to protect this man's rights. Now we're in a gray area of constitutional rights, but once you come into the United States, you are protected by the constitution, whether you're here legally or illegally. He's going to have a team of appointed lawyers. You've already seen translators. There'll be a lot of state resources applied. If I was his counsel, I would be immediately applying for a

psych evaluation. This thing about passing out in the dream. Wait, wait, wait. Ray Giudice, you can go on and it convinces a lot of juries. You have an excellent record. But let's just talk about his fugue dream state where he was following her. And then suddenly he notices he's got an earbud in his lap. And then that makes him think, wow, here's an earbud. That must mean the girl's dead in my trunk. Because see, when I see an earbud, a single earbud, Ray, Judicia, you know what I think? I think, well, John David's done it again. There goes another set of earbuds. Bam, back to the Dollar Tree. So that's what I

think. But he sees an earbud in his lap and he immediately thinks, wow, this must mean I've got a dead girl in my trunk, Ray. Also, when you say he blacked out or he has a mental issue, remember this, it's coming to light that he registered his vehicle under a false name. Now, crazy like a fox, Ray. Well, the fact that he has been in the United States for many years and apparently has not committed any other crimes, that is the current status. And he hasn't gotten caught. Right. But he has used false ID and false alias for the purpose of staying employed and staying in the country. Now, that's obviously illegal, but he has not been apparently using these false IDs or aliases to commit violent crimes. In fact, the testimony apparently from even his employer was,

hey, this guy came to work on time every day. We've never had a problem with him. We've never seen a change in his attitude. So I think the defense team is going to be looking into why all of a sudden he snapped or changed from a reliable, dependable employee, guy that nobody had a problem with, to all of a sudden who commits this type of heinous crime in the middle of a cornfield. Well, it's somebody who's got a cycle. Right. I've noticed this about you. And this is, again, not about you. And it's not about Republicans or Democrats or blah, the blah, the blah. But it's not just you.

Why is it the defense attorneys always stand up in court and go, he had a job. Okay, Ted Bundy had a job too. All right, I'm not impressed. I want to go with this. Let me ask you this. Chuck Roberts joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Is it true that this illegal immigrant now charged with murdering, chasing her down as she ran, threatening to call 911? She never got that call off. Is it true that he allegedly tailed another girl in his car. A very chilling, a very chilling echo of what happened

with Molly. Is this true, Chuck Roberts? It is a rumor not verified by any law enforcement official I'm aware of, but he did say he had seen Molly Tibbetts before. He had noticed her, and for some reason that night he went up and down the road. He's shown on a surveillance video in the black or dark colored Malibu driving up and down the road after that video shows Molly Tibbetts running near her hometown, in her hometown of Brooklyn, Iowa. Well, you know, Chuck Roberts, I appreciate you going by the book, but i don't need a cop to interpret what another girl tells her sister that the same guy leaves her in fear for her life after he tailed her in his car trying to quote flirt with her that was a 17 year old girl walking through brooklyn iowa the very same rural town where he would later be charged of chasing down Molly in the very same

way. In fact, the sister has given a very open interview about how he followed her, allegedly flirting with her from inside the car, telling her she's pretty, driving around behind her as she's walking the streets of Brooklyn. You know what that sounds like to me, to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, what we call a similar transaction. He is a predator. They have people missing in Iowa. I, if I was investigating this case, would want to know where has he been and what else has he done. This was not his first time. This was not his first time. Take a listen to the Judge Diane Crookham Johnson in court.

Mr. Rivera, I now need to review with you the maximum penalties for your charge. If found guilty of the charge of murder in the first degree, the maximum penalty will be imposed. The maximum penalty is life in prison without the possibility of parole. This sentence cannot be deferred or suspended. The defendant will be required to provide a DNA sample and may be required to register with the Sex Offender Registry. And, if not a U.S. citizen, a plea of guilty can result in additional immigration consequences up to and including deportation. The immigration detainer notice of action requires that at the completion of this criminal

matter you be transferred to the Department of Homeland Security to keep complete processing and assessment of your citizenship. Christian Bahena Rivera age 24 who resides in rural Poweshiek County and he has been charged with murder in the first degree. And first degree murder carries a penalty of life without the possibility of parole. Yes, that's true. In Iowa, there is no death penalty. You can chase down as many young women on the side of the street and murder them and leave them face up in a cornfield as you want to.

And you will still end up with life behind bars with us, the taxpayer, paying for three hots and a cot. To Lee Egan, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what more do we know at this juncture? The suspect will probably remain behind bars. The judge increased his bond to a $5 million cash-only bond. She denied his attorney's request to prohibit media. So as far as we know, we'll be able to continue to see what goes on as it progresses. Very, very interesting. The defense attorney insisting that the media be excluded from court. Guys, listen. We're asking this court to exclude the media from these proceedings because it could be just one nod of the head, one glance, one slight of hand that will be partially taken out of context and presented over and over, which would be highly prejudicial to the defendant.

So I urge the court to exclude the media from these proceedings. Renowned Atlanta defense attorney Raymond Giudice joining me. Ray, typically the defense wants the media in the courtroom. Why suddenly now no media? Well, let me say that I thought defense counsel's request was a little bit sloppy. I think he would have had a better approach if he had said, judge, we're not going to eliminate the media, but let's keep it a fixed camera, no focus or zooming in on my client for facial expressions. I think he would have had a much better and he would have laid a better grounds for an eventual appeal had he just not put a total gag order, request a total gag order. But the normal limitation here in Georgia, we have what's called a rule 22. The media has to

apply to have the camera and journalists, print journalists are of course allowed at any open courtroom. But that camera is a fixed camera. It won't pick up the jurors. It won't focus on the defendants' movements. It just tans the entire courtroom. I think that would have been a better and smarter request that may have had a chance of being granted. We are taking your calls, 909-49-CRIME, 909-492-7463, to Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com. You know, I don't know how this guy did it, going under the radar, having a job as an illegal immigrant for four years, how he got a social security number and so forth, used a fake name regarding his car. I don't know, but it's really hard, Ashley.

You and I have girls that are about 10 years old. Now, I don't let them out of my sight right now, but I can't control when she goes jogging or walking when she's in college. But long story short, this is my Lucy. This is your Katie in just nine years. And it's hard for me to focus on a camera in the courtroom and the defense claiming he had a mental block. Molly was brutally murdered. This is what we know right now. FBI canine units hunting for the weapon, the murder weapon used in Molly's murder. As an autopsy revealed, the 20-year-old Iowa student was stabbed dead with, quote, multiple sharp force blows.

And she was left face up in a cornfield after he scattered a few corn leaves over. I don't know if you guys have been in a cornfield, but that is not where I want to die and be left. In fact, they had to clear the airspace so choppers wouldn't fly over to see her body or the recovery of her remains, Ashley. Yeah, it makes you want to throw up because the other thing to keep in mind, it was a small community. They knew each other. It was safe. Why do people live there in part and why do they enjoy the lifestyle there in Iowa in that small community? Because they feel safe and they trust the people there and they trust that they can go for a run. And to think that you have a grown daughter who's making adult decisions, who simply goes out to get exercise and this is what happens is unthinkable. One other thing I do want to add, it is very, very common that individuals who are here illegally do get

fake names, social security cards. It's the norm because they then want to get employed. So that part doesn't surprise me at all in terms of his getting those things. The rest of it's awful. Apparently though, they checked it out with the social security administration. Listen to this. First, when anyone applies for a job at URB Farms, they must provide required government identification. In this case, the individual did provide a state issued photo ID and a Social Security card. These items are required for us to complete an I-9, which is a federal document. Our practice is to take a second enhanced step to verify the applicant's identification. We screen

every applicant through the Social Security Administration's Social Security Number Verification Service. Two forms of identification is the standard by which employers often validate someone's employment eligibility. In addition, we ran that information through the Verification Service and the information came back verified. Any agent or his brother can make a fake driver's license or a fake ID, even a fake college ID, a state license. But how do you verify it through the Social Security Administration? You give them the number. I mean, how do they do it? Kathleen Murphy, how do you go about getting the Social Security Administration to say, yeah, that's him? There's the underbelly that we just don't really know about where

he can go and get this information. Nancy, you need to know something. I am leaving today to take my 18 year old daughter to college for her first day at college on Monday. I'm leaving her 450 miles away. And Molly did everything right. She was in the light of day. She was jogging in her neighborhood. She was in a small town. What is a mother to do? I mean, I don't, I am so afraid right now for our daughters out there. And I don't believe this guy did this with Molly. That's his first crime. Do you? I absolutely do not. And that is why I'm bringing in forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober. Dr. Bober, you don't just jump to chasing a woman down as she's running from you. Kill her, probably rape her, kill her and leave her in a cornfield and then stay under the radar for a period of time.

I'm telling you, Bober, this is not his first crime. No, I totally agree with you, Nancy. I mean, this is a guy who was probably profiling young women for a while. He's probably casing different places. I don't believe this is his first crime. This is probably the first time that he got caught in any significant manner. And I'm sure that he was very aware that he needed to fly below the radar. But everything about his behavior, to me, says that he'd done this before. Straight back out to Raymond Giudice about the faking the Social Security number and faking the ID. I mean, there's a whole body of law immigration specialists that deal with immigrants, illegal immigrants, getting, quote, papers. How does it happen? How's this guy there in a town of 1500 people and nobody knows he's an illegal immigrant just following women down the street in a car? There is something out there that's called the dark net, and it's the alternative Internet that criminals know about.

The Russians know about the Chinese people that sneak into your for the Chinese military that are trying to steal American IDs and social security numbers. Whenever you hear on the news that a bank or a hospital has been, their database has been attacked, it's by the criminal element, the worldwide criminal element. Ray, I hear you and I know you're right, but this ain't James Bond here, okay? This is Christian Rivera. Well, he figured out how to get into this country illegally. He figured out how to get a job. He figured out how to stay here a long time. He might be smarter than most people think. You can buy Social Security numbers. You can buy identification. It's out there. The criminal element is way ahead. Well, I don't say way ahead of law enforcement, but law enforcement is struggling to keep up, including the Social Security Administration. So this doesn't surprise me at all. Let me tell you something, Ray Giudice. All you got to do is go on and Google can you fake a Social Security number because check it out, it pops up.

Quote, we've put together a few tools to help you generate and validate U.S. Social Security numbers. If you have questions, comments, suggestions, contact us. This page will tell you if a Social Security number follows the Social Security Administration's numbering plan. They tell you how to do it. Well, that's all well and good, but listen to this.

It seemed that he followed her and seemed to be drawn to her on that particular day. And for whatever reason, he chose to abduct her. We saw Molly running, and we also saw this black vehicle. It's a black Malibu, Chevy Malibu. And so there are some certain features and some distinct features, I guess I would say, to the vehicle, and that's why we were able to eventually locate it outside of town. We, again, had some rather distinct features to the vehicle that allowed us to basically search the area for it and it just happened that we were able to locate the vehicle

and then subsequently identify Mr. Rivera driving the vehicle and that's ultimately what led us to you're hearing the special agent speaking out Rick Ron about rivera was caught we are talking about the death of a gorgeous college student just 20 years old it's almost too much for me to take in ashley when you let yourself think about what molly went through think about jogging think about noticing this chevy malibu passing her then turning around and coming back and passing her and coming back. And she's, you know, over a mile away from home and she starts running faster and faster. She says, I'm going to call 911. And then she turns and he's beside her. He's running beside her. Then he's behind her. And she tries to call 911 and she runs. And then

she feels him tackle her. And she ends up after God only knows what dead staring into the sky in a cornfield that's the reality and when they they state that clothes were recovered it seems to suggest the clothes her clothing was in a different place than her body. And that's what her family is living with right now. While politicians use Molly's murder to their own benefit. If you think about what happened to this girl, I don't know how you, you cannot break down in tears. Yeah,

it's terrifying. And to make matters even worse and harder. I know I and along with the family members, I really believed in my heart and hoped this was a case of she's gone somewhere to get away. And so it's even harder because there was so much hope. And the father even stated he believed that she was being held somewhere and that she was safe. And so it adds that much more heartache, heartbreak. And I think everyone has to remember, it's not just another story of somebody got murdered. It's another wake up call to really empathize, sympathize with this

family and say, oh, my God, this is a horrible thing that's happened to her. To Karen Smith, forensics expert joining us today, renowned forensics expert. Karen, I'm thinking about how it disturbs me so much, but what about the people that have to recover the body and process the scene? First of all, scientifically, Karen, how will they recover the body? What is critical to the recovery of the body the area around the body the path leading up to the body his vehicle just i'm trying to determine the primary secondary tertiary crime scene his home his apartment what are we looking for his dirty clothes yes Everything at this point.

When you recover a clandestine, I'll call it a clandestine grave at this point. She was covered with leaves. You have to look for everything. Between the body, you have under her fingernails. You've got DNA swabs. You have the cause of death sharp force. His car is key. That's going to do the direct linkage between Rivera and Molly Tibbetts, the blood in the trunk. He can scrub it clean all he wants.

It'll still be there. We have chemical processes that can reveal that, whether or not he did. So that's a direct link. The way that they found him was phenomenal police work, as far as I'm concerned. And now they just have to tie up these loose ends and directly connect Rivera with Molly Tibbetts. And that'll be the end of that. This is what I see they should be doing right now. Number one, they should be making, if it exists, casts of any tire tracks. Let me tell you, this is not open shut case by any stretch of the imagination. Anything and everything can go wrong at trial evidence

suppressed a bad juror i don't know but this is what i think they need to be doing making a cast of any tire marks or footprint marks footprint marks must be matched back to his shoes found at his home tire marks back to his chevy malibu The security surveillance has to be verified and maintained. You've got to have a chain of custody in order for it to get into court properly. His car, his Chevy Malibu, his trunk has to be processed with a fine tooth comb, looking for fibers from her shorts or her shirt, looking for her hair, looking for touch DNA, looking for blood, looking for her fingerprints. The scene inside the car could be the murder scene. You have to go to his apartment, look in his dirty clothes, find out if there's sperm or ejaculate, find out if there's any of her fibers on his clothes, even his shower. It may be too late, but to look for blood. What's the murder

weapon? And of course, all important, the processing of the body, the fingernails, the hands, the mouth, the neck, the genitalia, everything about Molly must be processed, including that shallow grave where we think she may have been laying. If not, all around the area. Did he drop a cigarette? Did something come out of his pocket? Anything and everything has to be very carefully examined. When her body's taken, her hands have to be bagged

so nothing can contaminate her fingernails. And that is just the beginning because the defense is going to fight tooth and nail. Listen. In this particular case, the coverage that's out there is leaning all one way. And in fact, the government has weighed in at the highest levels of a predisposition that this young man, is guilty but in our system of justice he's entitled to that presumption of innocence until some evidence is presented at this time there's been no evidence presented your honor and so we're urging the court to prevent the cameras from coming in here which

possibly could show some sort of bias or prejudice and get it into this political controversy of portraying Christian as something that he isn't. In some ways I view this as a political payback for what's swirling around in terms of the media and the media is feeding into it. They have not made efforts as far as I can see to give justice or any type of leaning towards this presumption of innocence. Not getting what he needs. Raymond Giudice, you're the veteran defense attorney. He's got this lawyer for free representing him. The state's going to have to pay for all of his experts, all of his legal fees, which will probably be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And if he's talking about illegal immigrants not getting a fair shake, just remember, this is being compared to the guy that murdered Kate Steinle, the illegal immigrant who shot her dead as she walked along with her father at San Francisco Pier, Jose Inez Garcia Zarate. Uh, hello? He was acquitted, Ray. So what is this defense attorney talking about? He's already laying some themes for his opening statement. He is personalizing the defendant by using his first name, Christian.

He is making sure the words presumption of innocence, burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt by the state. He's already laying out a map for the only defense he has most likely. very well went over and there's probably more things, tire tracks in the farm, in the field, on the car, footprints. If this is soil, his feet, the defendant's feet would have left footprints. But equally so for the defense, let's say there are other footprints. Let's say the shoe print doesn't match my client's shoe. And this is a horrific, I hate to say this, but I must as a defense lawyer, let's say there is DNA from other people on or about the body of the decedent. That's hard to say, but it must be said. That might expand the list of potential defendants or suspects. So as a defense lawyer, I also want a thorough and clean, meaning a good chain of

custody, the proper experts to test the DNA. As you know, the judge ordered a DNA test. But as you said, there'll be a search warrant and a search conducted of his belongings, his hairbrush, his towel, things like that in his room or his house that will look to match DNA to the scene, to the car, and to the decedent's body. It's exhausting because I don't know where she is. I don't know if she's safe. We're just hoping for her safe return. That was Molly's mother, Laura Calderwood, as she was hoping against hope that her daughter would be brought home alive. Joining me now, Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Chuck, what is happening now?

Well, the family obviously has the unbelievable task of arranging services, and it will be some time, obviously, before the body is released. The autopsy was on Wednesday. Right now, they're sort of pushing back against those who claim that a failure of immigration was responsible. Molly's aunt, Billie Jo Calderwood, said, remember, evil comes in every color. She wrote that on her Facebook page. And Molly's cousin writes also on her Facebook page, please don't compound the atrocity of what happened to her by adding racism and hate to the equation. Do not turn hashtag Molly's movement into something ugly.

And there's also, you know, interesting comments from the owner of Yerubi's Farms where Rivera worked and lived. He lived in a trailer on the property only two miles from where Molly lived. They apparently never checked his immigration status and his eligibility. As you pointed out earlier, they only went through a Social Security verification that there was that name attached to that number. And they may want to go back and talk to his old girlfriend who provided that fake Social Security card as the investigation continues. Investigators say Molly's alleged

killer stalked her, approached her, ran behind her, ran beside her, then claimed he blacked out and can't remember anything, but he remembered enough to lead police to her dead body in the middle of a cornfield. To Lee Egan, investigative reporter, CrimeOnline.com. Lee, regarding the investigation, what more do we know and what is happening now? The suspect's next court date will be on August 31st. In the meantime, investigators are continuing to build the case against him. They're not really saying too much, but he's the only suspect. So they're building everything they can around him at this point. And it's pretty much a way to see what happens next. To Ashley

Wilcott, juvenile judge, founder of childcrimewatch.com. She's right. They are closeted away somewhere right now. Ashley Wolcott, building his defense as Molly's family prepares for a funeral. They probably haven't even processed the fact that she's actually dead. Right. Absolutely. And the other thing I want to say about him, though, is it's important that they get his DNA. I'm glad the order was issued because they also need to run it through a database to see if that matches any other crimes that are outstanding right now, because that could lead to similar transactions, which could be key in going against the defense of the prosecution in this case. The other thing I wanted to say, Nancy, while I have the opportunity is I am not blaming

anyone in the community, but I am suggesting the sister said that this same person had been in a car making her uncomfortable and making comments and flirting with her. I don't know whether or not she reported it at the time, but it's just a reminder to all of us, even if we think something makes us uncomfortable, but we can walk away and it goes away. We have got to learn to report these kinds of things that make us feel that way, because you just never know what that person might be capable of. And I know we have surveillance video footage, but that footage was not able to capture the vehicle's license plates. Now, police are saying there were, quote, unusual markings on the car that helped investigators track it down. And it's actually quite a science to,

you've got investigators that do nothing but this. Very often you will find, especially in large urban areas, a whole division of investigators, detectives that deal with, for instance, stolen cars. They can tell you, they can take one look at a car and tell you pretty much the make, the model, and very, very often the year based on the taillights, the grill, subtle changes in the car. That's how it goes down. There's a part, and you're going to remember this, Kathleen Murphy. And it's funny. In Aristocats, and there are two dogs. They're tracker dogs.

And one can hold up his ear and he can tell you what kind of car it is what's wrong with the back tire and how many how many creatures are in it and how fast it's coming and how far away it is that's a funny anecdote but in this case they looked at that chevy malibu they didn't have a license plate, but they could determine the make and the model. Then they figured out in that population of 2,000 who was driving a Chevy Malibu. Then they said it had unusual markings on it, and that is how they found him.

This is going to be attacked in court, Kathleen. If they can do it, the defense will get that video thrown out. They won't get that video thrown out. They will not get that video thrown out. They won't get that video thrown out. They will not get that video thrown out. This guy has obviously done this before, and I would suggest, Nancy, that there are videos, if they are able to go back and see what he did to the sister of that young woman that came back in.

Is there other evidence? Well, wait a minute. There's another connection. There's another connection, Kathleen, to Karen Smith. You're the forensics expert. Isn't it true that Rivera, the perp, the alleged perp, girlfriend is Facebook friends with Molly and her brother? There's the connection right there.

Yeah, it sounds to me like there's two degrees of separation there. So obviously, to me, it sounds like he knew at least who she was, if not being just an acquaintance of his. So that social media account and his digital footprint are going to come into a huge part of this trial. It's going to be interesting to see what they can dig up on him. And we are learning at this hour, FBI canine units hunting for the weapon used to murder Molly Tibbetts. As the autopsy revealing, she was stabbed dead with multiple sharp force blows. Multiple sharp force blows. Multiple sharp force blows. And we are quoting from law enforcement and authorities. FBI canine units at this hour hunting for the weapon used in Molly Tibbetts' murder.

Her autopsy revealing she was, quote, stabbed to death with multiple sharp force blows. Now, what that says to me right off the bat is the word multiple. We all know that premeditation under the law takes the twinkling of an eye, a moment, the time it takes for you to pull the trigger. Is time enough under the law to form premeditation. It does not require a long, drawn-out plan, such as poisoning someone over a period of months, or hiring a hitman, or lying in wait. It can happen just like that. Bam! Premeditation.

The point? Multiple sharp force blows. That shows, A, it was not an accident, such as she fell on a rock and hit her head. Multiple means many. And many means there's time in between each blow to form intent. That is murder one. Joining me right now, Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist and founder of TransformationProducts.com.

Also with me, Joseph Scott Morgan. As you know, death investigator, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet. I want to talk about what we're learning from the autopsy. Weigh in, analyze it, Joe Scott. Okay, Nancy, when she was found, she was found in what would be considered to an advanced moderate state of decomposition in this cornfield, if you'll recall, covered with stalks. Now, this is a particularly difficult case in the sense that her body has begun to break down. And what a lot of people don't know is that in cases like this, one of the things that we'll do in the morgue is that we will take the

body, lay it out, and we will do full body length x-rays. Now, this is key because we're talking about sharp force injuries. That's what they've identified as the primary cause of death here sharp force injuries he's essentially driving this metal object into her body and every time that he does this there is a potential that this break that this blade is actually fracturing so one of the things they're going to be looking for are little metallic uh metallic bodies that are throughout the body over the area of where these wounds took place. A good thing about this is that her body is so decomposed, some of this stuff will not be allowed in court, but what's very powerful is that these x-rays will be shown in court. And you're telling me, Justice Scott Morgan, that the x-rays will reveal metallic fragments. Now, are metallic fragments typically left behind when a sharp force blow occurs that must be naked to the invisible to the naked eye?

Because I've never seen them in a knife wound. Yes. So you're telling me this is normal? It is. It occurs with great frequency. And in my sphere, at least, I've seen them over and over again. And you have to be careful to look for them, but they are actually there. And this is another important piece here.

If that blade is fractured in any way whatsoever, and they can't find the blade, and they eventually find the blade this is going to be a tie back because metallurgical analysis will tie that fragment back to the blade itself and it'll be there and they and that's another piece of linkage as lawyers put this case together well we also know that the fbi evidence response team swoops in just moments after the autopsy revealed Molly killed by multiple sharp force injuries to look for the murder weapon. You know, I think it takes a particular type of killer to kill with a knife. But hold on before I go to Dr. Chloe. Are we sure that the murder weapon is a knife when they say multiple sharp force injuries. Could that be from

a rock? Could it be from another object? Are you convinced it's a knife, Joseph Scott Morgan? Not necessarily, Nancy, because they're hedging their bets here when they say multiple sharp force injuries. What they are saying is that it was sharp enough to penetrate the body multiple times. Now, obviously, logic would dictate... Penetrate the body. Why do you say penetrate the body? Well, because these are sharp. Now, whether it's a slicing injury, say, for instance, it's an incised wound, which, you know, you've heard the old term dying by a thousand cuts. You can slice the body as opposed to penetrating, say for instance,

the chest wall where it's driven into the body. But you're talking about a multiple frenzied event here is what it sounds like to me. Hold on. I've got another thought for you, Joseph Scott Morgan. When they're saying multiple sharp force injuries, sharp force blows blows that could be hit in the head with a rock or or could it no because when they say because if it was hit in the head with a rock they would frame that by using blunt as opposed to sharp yeah now what you will see many times with with these sharp force injuries you'll see bruising that's left by what we refer to as the hilt mark.

If he buries this knife into her so deep, the hilt or that break that's on the handle can actually leave a bruised area on the body. And this is going to be key, Nancy. Did he do this in the field or did he actually do this in that car? That is a mobile rolling crime scene. It is a necessity that that vehicle is locked down because if she has been stabbed multiple times, Nancy, that environment within that car will just be effused with blood evidence. You know, another issue here, I want to be very clear, and I'll let you explain it technically. What is a sharp force blow?

And they are very clearly stating stabbed to death. So to me, that rules out a rock or another blunt object. But what's important to me about the fact that it most likely is a knife is that he came into it with a weapon. It's not as if he just lost his temper and grabbed a rock and hit her in the head. He came with a weapon. Yeah, he came prepared. And again, this goes to this idea of a premeditative or prepared event. As you stated earlier, he had time to form intent. You know, if he is stopping her along the road, he sees something that he is, you know, that he's driven towards in her. He shows up. He knows that he's going to overpower her. How do you,

okay, how do you get her into that car? That's the thing that's always bugged me about this, Nancy. How do you subdue her to the point where you get her in the car? He dismounted the car, got out, and what he is saying about his own admission in this statement that he gave them is that he walked alongside her talking to her. He even stated that she was going to call the police. Well, how do you compel her to get into the vehicle with you? Well, the only thing I can think is that he had some kind of weapon with him that's driving her back toward this vehicle. Get in the car with me right now.

And again, we don't know what really happened after that because he, quote unquote, blocked his memory. Whatever the hell that means. And, you know, what happened in that interim? Are we talking about sexual assault in that vehicle? Did he drive her somewhere else? Right. Hold on just a moment. I hear Dr. Chloe wants in.

Dr. Chloe, New York psychologist, founder of TransformationProducts.com. Dr. Chloe, weigh in. Well, Nancy, I actually really agree with what Joe Scott was just getting at there, which is it's quite a curious statement on his part that he, quote, blocked his memory at that particular time. You know, whether he's unable or unwilling to recall that or whether he has any other history of his memory just suddenly lapsing, It seems really implausible to me. And obviously then he covered her body afterwards. So he was actually, I think it sounds like, quite cognizant of what he was doing. So it almost feels to me as if saying that he blocked his memory is some kind of a juvenile attempt to avoid taking

responsibility for what he did. You are listening to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are also learning right now that police have descended on the home where Christian Rivera lives just four miles from where Molly was kidnapped, the place strewn with beer cans and garbage. This is what we know at this hour as we wait for justice to unfold. Right now, Molly's family and her longtime sweetheart are planning a funeral. And I can tell you, I remember my fiancé's funeral hardly at all. Hardly at all. It was like a haze. I was seeing it through like this reddish-yellow burning haze, like a filter, the little bits of it that I remember.

So right now, all I believe that we can do to help Molly is to pray for her family and that justice unfolds. Listen to this. Every day I feel Molly's presence with me. You know, sometimes I just feel her sitting on my shoulder. And Molly was an incredibly strong young woman. And I don't know that I have the strength in me, but Molly's lending me her strength every day, every night. And yes, I have my moments of complete meltdowns, but it is through this strength that is somehow, and I don't know how, being bestowed upon me that I am able to get through every morning, every noon, every night. That is Molly's mother, Laura. May she have some peace in the days that come. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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