Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mom Caught on Video Throwing Newborn in Dumpster, Freezing Temps

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

A couple out dumpster diving hear a noise. They think a kitten or puppy is inside, but find a newborn instead. The couple dials 911, and an investigation uncovers video of a young mother throwing her newborn baby in a New Mexico dumpster. 18-year-old Alexis Avila is charged with attempted murder and felony child abuse and placing her baby boy inside two trash bags and discarding them  The baby was discovered alive six hours later and is now in a stable condition. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy - Family Attorney (North Carolina), www.ncdomesticlaw.com, Twitter: @RalDivorceLaw Dr. Alan Blotcky Ph.D. - Clinical and Forensic Psychologist (Birmingham, AL) specializing in Criminal, Child Custody and Abuse Paul Szych - Former Police Commander, Author: "StopHimFromKillingThem" on Amazon Kindle, StopHimFromKillingThem.com, Twitter: @WorkplaceThreat (Albuquerque, NM) Dr. Bernard Cohen - Professor of Pediatrics and Dermatology Johns Hopkins Children's Center, Author: "Pediatric Dermatology" Mary Kate Hamilton - CBS7 News Anchor (Odessa, TX), Twitter: @MaryKate_CBS7, Facebook: MaryKateHamiltonCBS7 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Caught on video, A cold-hearted mom throwing her infant into a dumpster, hopping in the car, and taking off. Now what? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to this 911 call.

Hello, 911? Yes, we just found a baby in the trash behind the... What is it? Damn, I can't think straight. The hog... Hey, where are we at? The mall. Hogway.

Behind it. Where is where we are tomorrow? We're behind the mall. OK, I'm showing you 1218 North. We just found a child. Is it breathing? Yes, ma'am. OK, I know the mall behind the mall. The house was a faith. Okay. Is it closed? Close to new.

Close to new. Does the baby have any clothes on? Yes, it is making noise. Okay. Do you have a blanket? It is a boy. And he is still alive, I believe. He looks pretty good. You are hearing a desperate 911 call when strangers find a baby in a dumpster.

Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. All-star panel members joining us today to make sense of what we know right now. First of all, Kathleen Murphy, trial lawyer out of North Carolina at ncdomesticlaw.com, Dr. Alan Blotke, forensic psychologist joining us out of Birmingham, specializing in criminal child custody and abuse cases. Paul Zeich, former police commander and author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon. Dr. Bernard Cohen joining us today, professor of pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Children's Center

and author of Pediatric Dermatology. But first, to our special guest joining us, Mary-Kate Hamilton, CBS7 anchor, joining us. Mary-Kate, what alerted these people to a baby in the dumpster well Nancy they were dumpster diving and they heard what they described as mewing and they thought that it was a kitten or a puppy and once they pulled that bag out they realized realized it was a baby. And I can't imagine what they must have been feeling in that moment. A baby in a bag. And of course, straight out to you, Paul Zeit, former police commander and author.

When I hear bag as in plastic bag, that opens up a lot of possibilities forensic wise, because that's a perfect medium for getting fingerprints, a plastic bag. Yes, Nancy. And in addition to that, you've got DNA that could very well be present within that bag as well. And it's my understanding there was other trash in that bag, could be receipts, could be other investigative leads that investigators could use to determine who, in fact, dumped the body. But in this case, you know, really, the video is the gold standard that broke the case. It really is.

And speaking of receipts, you know, it can be argued the video is grainy. I can't make out a face. Who is this person? Kathleen Murphy, you know, you're at ncdomesticlaw.com, but domestic is anything but the cases that you handle. You know, Kathleen Murphy, I've seen a lot of dumb criminals, but I could absolutely foresee the mom who throws away this baby or the woman who throws away this baby having her signature on a credit card receipt in that bag? More than that, Nancy, I would imagine because it

was the baby, a towel with her DNA, the white bag with trash in it, and then she put the baby in the black bag. So she left many, many chances to be identified, even driving up in the light of day with her car. In the light of day, without a care in the world, in broad daylight, throwing away a baby literally into a dumpster like it's trash. Take a listen to more of that. 911, call our cut to. OK, do you have a blanket or something you can wrap him in?

Do you have a blanket or something you can wrap him in? Yes, ma'am. He was in a blanket. OK, can I have your name? Can I have your name, please? He looks like he's in good health. OK, can I have your name? He's still got an umbilical cord, she said. OK, can I get your name? He still got his umbilical cord, she said. Okay, can I get your name?

Michael Green. A phone number? I don't, it's a, hold, you'll have to wait, the passenger's moving, or the driver's moving his truck. But, no, hold on one second. There we are behind the mall. You're behind the mall? Yeah, right here behind Hogs Buffet. Okay.

And that's the corner of Ute and Thorpe? Yes, ma'am. Hogs Buffet, Old First. Back out to Mary Kate Hamilton joining us from CBS7. Mary Kate, what do we know about the area where the baby was thrown away like trash? Well, Hobbs, New Mexico is about 40,000 people and it's one of those towns, much like a lot of the towns that I cover, there's not much to see. You're never going to have a reason to visit Hobbs, New Mexico, but there are great people. And I think that's why this has rocked our community so much is that now nationwide and even globally, people are hearing about Hobbs,

New Mexico, maybe for the first time and in relation to this, but it's an oil and gas town, hardworking people, blue collar people, God fearing people. And it's just kind of a shame that now this is putting Hobbs, New Mexico on the map. You know, thinking about the location where the baby was discarded, still with the umbilical cord attached to Dr. Bernard Cohen, professor of pediatrics, joining us from Johns Hopkins Children's Center and author of Pediatric Dermatology. What does that mean about the age of the infant if the umbilical cord is still attached? Well, again, the cord tends to dry up and tends to fall off within the first 24 to 48

hours. So this tells us you've got a newborn here. And in some ways, being in a plastic bag is crazy, but in a dumpster, in some ways, it's somewhat protective against toxins or toxic agents that a child may be exposed to in that dumpster. The other thing is that the temperature there, I think, was in the mid-30s. And so hypothermia becomes a super major issue and can certainly be toxic enough to cause death fairly early in a child this age. So actually being wrapped in a towel and in two trash bags in some ways can be somewhat protective and give you a little extra time because hypothermia, like you're saying,

that sudden can be a major disaster. With me, Dr. Bernard Cohen, Professor of Pediatrics and Dermatology at Johns Hopkins Children's Center. Dr. Cohen, having prosecuted so many child abuse and child murder cases, I understood exactly what you were saying, but it took me literally grilling various medical examiners and doctors over the course of years and years and years to understand when you're saying things like hypothermia, toxic agents, can you break it down for us, Dr. Bernard Cohen? First of all, when you're saying hypothermia, that means when you get too cold and you die. Yes, I mean, it's interesting that even in the hospital setting, the child is delivered in the delivery room, there are settings even in normal hospitals where the temperature may not be maintained adequately. So the temperature of the child can drop off fairly quickly. In a full-term baby, this child was pretty close to full-term or at term.

They tend to be somewhat protected because their skin is a bit thicker. They can handle a cold temperature. But if the child is not in a warm environment at delivery, if they're delivered at home or even in some hospital settings, the temperature can drop off and the baby's temperature may drop as well. And this can put them at increased risk for developing infection, which can not only just local infection in the skin or in the mouth or the face, but it can be internal and increase the risk of death from infection. There are unusual, there are funny changes that can occur in the skin. It can interfere with heart function and breathing, respiratory function, GI tract issues. So it becomes very important to keep these kids warm. You don't want them hyperthermic.

You don't want them too hot. But it's very important to maintain that temperature. And again, in most hospital settings or if the child is delivered at home by someone who knows what they're doing, this is something that's going to be protected. And in this kind of setting, this could be a disaster. And this child survived here six hours, which is pretty amazing. Amazing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Alan Blocky joining me, forensic psychologist. Dr. Blocky, my children, my twins, John David and Lucy, were born very, very premature.

And I remember in the NICU, neonatal intensive care unit, they were under, have you ever been to a school cafeteria? And at the end, they have things sitting there and they have a little kind of a yellowish orange light shining on it, I guess, to keep it warm. Oh, I think I've seen it at McDonald's too. Anyway, they had the children, the twins, in a big, it looked like a big plastic bin that came up to just below my shoulders and covered in clear plastic on the top with holes so I could put my arms into them. And they had them at very carefully temperature controlled. And they had those lights over them to keep them toasty. And I'm just thinking about all the care that they had, Dr. Blocky, all the care. And I remember the first time I bathed them,

there were like 10 nurses standing around me at the hospital. And we got the water just the right temperature. And I laid down a little baby blanket so their skin wouldn't touch the cold sink. And we were so careful bathing them. And here is this little baby, newborn, because you know mom gave birth at home so nobody would find out she was pregnant, throws the baby in a trash bag and into a dumpster for Pete's sake. And as Dr. Bernard Cohen was pointing out, it was in the 30s.

Yeah, I mean, I think everybody has an intense emotional reaction to this case because we're talking about a newborn little baby. And as you described, we all want to take care of our babies and we all have taken care of our babies. It's just so emotionally triggering that, like I said, everybody has an emotional reaction to this particular case. Nancy, I had a quick question. Jump in. Is there anybody on the line that can maybe speak to the fact that the cord was still attached and maybe that helped this baby survive in that environment for those six hours? Huh. Is that you, Paul Z in that environment for those six hours. Huh. Is that you, Paul? Yes, it is. How would that help Dr. Bernard Cohen or would it? I don't, again, it just tells you that you're dealing with a child that probably delivered within the preceding 24 hours. It's not going to be particularly helpful. The other thing that

you mentioned that reactions to decreased environmental temperature are dramatically exaggerated if the child is small for dates. So if you have a child who's very, very light, not normal weight, and also if they're premature, they also don't handle cold environments well. So those are risk factors for sure. And speaking of the cold environment, take a listen to our cut five. This is April Meadow on the phone with 911. Hello? Hello, just now. Can you tell me about the baby? He's still got his available cord. He's freezing cold and he's very like, he's great, like he's very, very, very weak. Okay. Do you have him wrapped in a blanket and the heater on? that was wearing them off of them. There, there, there, there, there. There are the cops. We got them.

Mary Kate Hamilton, you are hearing April Meadows, who was speaking to 911, the guy that first heard the baby, got the baby out, gave the baby to April Meadows. She calls 911, and she says there was a wet towel wrapped around the baby. How's that going to help the baby? Yes, ma'am, and the towel and the baby itself were covered in dried up blood.

And like she mentioned, it was freezing outside. It was near freezing temperatures. And so, I mean, there could have been a case where we got a little bit lucky because down here it doesn't get quite as cold as maybe if we were on the East Coast or in the Midwest or up north. But I mean, it was freezing and this baby still had dried blood. That is how and as we've mentioned, the umbilical cord as well. It's just insane. And not only that, but that the towel was wrapped around the baby and the baby was already placed in a trash bag

that had trash in it. You know, she was trying to cover her tracks, but it just didn't work. So you're telling me the baby was wrapped in a wet towel in a trash bag and then another bag? Yes, ma'am. And the first trash bag that the baby was placed in already had trash in it. So in a trash bag full of trash. Is somebody jumping in? I'm hearing I think it was Paul's like. Yes. I was just going to talk about just simply the fact of how these cases are so different because, you know, a lot of times we have a hard time getting community, essentially, to go, hey, look, this is not just any crime. This is the worst crime that could happen here. It involves this little baby. Everyone comes together. That really, you know, from an investigative standpoint, doesn't happen very often.

Man, you are so right, Paul Zyke. A lot of times people not only don't do anything to help, they take videos on their phones of the crime as it's happening. Guys, take a listen to Hobbs, New Mexico, Interim Police Chief August Fonz. This is our cut nine. The two males and females located at the scene, advised officers that they were going through the dumpster looking for anything of value when they heard what they thought was a baby crying.

They thought it may have been a dog or a kitten, so they removed a black trash bag. They opened it, and they saw that it was a human baby. The female removed the baby from the trash bag and held him, trying to keep him warm, while one of the male companions called 911. The male caller identified the baby as an infant male. The two males and one female at the scene have been identified as Mr. Michael Green, Mr. Hector Jasso, and Mrs. April Nuttall. Their collective quick response to this emergency, including notification of 911, was absolutely pivotal in saving this baby's life. And also take a listen to our cut eight, also from the police chief. On Friday, January 7th at approximately 7 45 p.m., Lee County Communications Authority received an

emergency 911 call regarding an infant baby that had been found alive in a dumpster. They immediately dispatched Hobbs PD officers and Hobbs Fire Department emergency medical services to the area of Thorpe and Ute Streets in reference to this report. Police officers and EMS personnel arrived at the scene within minutes, and they located two males standing close to a truck in the alley behind the mall and a female sitting in that truck holding and caring for an infant baby. The baby was wrapped in a bath towel that was dirty and wet and had dried blood on him with umbilical cords still attached. The baby was taken from the female by a Hobbs officer, was given to EMS personnel, and was transported

immediately to Covenant Health Hobbs Hospital. The baby was treated at Covenant Health Hobbs Hospital and later airlifted to medical facilities in Lubbock, Texas. The baby is currently in stable condition at Covenant Hospital in Lubbock, Texas. Back to Mary-Kate Hamilton joining us from CBS 7 in Odessa. Mary-Kate, again, thank you for being with us. Just fortuitously, there was a video surveillance camera that catches a woman pulling up in broad daylight, throwing the baby into the trash dumpster, just like she's throwing away trash, hopping back in her car and taking off. You've looked at the video.

Tell us exactly what it shows, Mary Kay. Well, not only did I look at the video, but I spoke to the man whose security cameras caught it. And, you know, by the grace of God, these security cameras were pretty high definition. But when you watch her throw it in, it's as if she were discarding trash. It's not, she didn't place the baby in the dumpster carefully. It's, she wanted it to look like she was, or this is my assumption, I should say, but like she was throwing away a normal bag of trash and sped away as if, you know, this crime didn't happen. And another thing I want to mention is when they were going through this footage, this baby was in the dumpster for five hours. They had to go all the way back and watch other people actually discarding trash on

top of this baby before they got to what they knew was this woman, Alexis Avila, throwing her newborn baby in the dumpster. And the surveillance footage caught everything right down to her license plate number. So once they had that, and like I said, it was pretty high definition, they were able to locate Avila pretty quickly. But when I spoke to the man who owned the store with the security cameras, he said the most heartbreaking part was having to then see five hours of people actually discarding their trash and not knowing what was inside that dumpster at the time. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Mary-Kate Hamilton joining us, CBS 7 in Odessa. Mary-Kate, what was the company that had the security camera?

Rig Outfitters. So it's essentially kind of an outfitter store. And when he was contacted by the police, they said, there's a crime scene. Are your security cameras working? security camera? Rig Outfitters. So it's essentially kind of an outfitter store. And when he was contacted by the police, they said, there's a crime scene. Are your security cameras working? And he said, yes, they are. And as a business owner, his assumption was, oh, someone's broken into my business. And he told me that the second the police officers arrived, he knew it was something much worse. He could see it on the faces of the police officers. They were absolutely distraught. And from that moment on, he knew this isn't a normal crime scene. This has to

be something big. Hey, Mary Kate, remind me, I want to circle back to you on something, but I just had an idea. You know, Kathleen Murphy joining us, she's a veteran trial lawyer joining us out of North Carolina. Sometimes Kathleen and I talk off camera and we feel like we've seen it all. But Kathleen, I know you have children and they're wonderful. I will never forget the feeling I had when I first saw the twins' face. I know. And I just can't believe a mother would do this. I mean, I will never forget it. I mean, I was heading off to ICU and, and my lungs are full of blood clots.

I could hardly breathe. I couldn't even sit up to hold them. I just put a kiss on my finger and put it on their foreheads. And we all went different ways in the hospital. Oh, I know. I can't imagine putting one of the twins in a trash bag full of trash and throwing them in a dumpster. She put this baby in two bags and tied them shut. And I don't understand how this baby survived with no oxygen and being flung into freezing cold weather trash with a wet blanket. I didn't even think about that. The throwing aspect, just throw and then landing. How did she know the baby wasn't going to land on the very bottom of the dumpster? Metal, hard metal, or on something sharp.

It's just the moments. Dr. Block, look, help me out here. You're the shrink. The frame of mind of tying the plastic bag shut on top and throwing the bag in a dumpster. I mean, Mary Kate Hamilton, did she even look in there to see where the baby would land? No, ma'am. Blocky, help me. So I guess I'm I hope I'm not going to get a whole lot of pushback. But let's emphasize this. She's 18 years old.

I'm not defending her sounds like you are how long was the baby blocky oh no i understand that i'm just saying the 18 year old girl has an immature non-fully developed brain she's she's a kid And I think from a mental health standpoint, we have to use that context. No, she is not a kid. And if you don't believe me, that's the U.S. Supreme Court. And they'll tell you she's not a kid. This teen girl who is a few months away from 19. Teen woman. Teen woman.

Had the baby in secret. That is why the blood was all over the towel because she was trying to hide it. She is now claiming she didn't know she was pregnant. Right. Okay. That's a lie. And had been open about her pregnancy at school and then stopped coming to class just before Christmas break. She did everything she could to hide the pregnancy and then try to kill the baby.

Blocky, I'm a little repulsed by you right now. I have a feeling that was going to happen. Because she tried to kill the baby. I understand that. I'm not defending it. Yes, you are. I'm simply saying, no, I'm saying I'm trying to step back and take a look at it. If she had been 13, I would have listened to you a tiny bit more. When I was 18, I was already holding down a job and trying to go to school at the same time.

You know, I just unique. No, not really. Because my mom did the same thing. What? Jump in. I hear I did the best I could in so many abusive situations. And I heard that from her mother. And I hear that as an excuse. And we have to stop taking in the other thoughts when we have vulnerable victims. If this baby wasn't so vulnerable, I may even hear it a little bit better. But we cannot open that door and allow these excuses to continue when you have such vulnerable victims.

Guys, take a listen to Our Cut 12. This is reporter Julie Friend at KOB. Joe Imbriali owns Riggs Outfitters in Hobbs. He says police called him Friday night with a request to view his surveillance footage. I said, what is it we are looking for? And she goes, we're looking for somebody that dumped a black garbage bag in your dumpster. And I turned around and said, please don't tell me it was a baby. The video shows who is believed to be Avila

leaving the dumpster at two Friday afternoon. Six hours later, you can see three people searching through the same dumpster. They pull out a black bag and start looking through it. Seconds later, a woman reacts to what's inside and starts opening the bag. She pulls out the newborn baby, still alive, and tends to it. Once the child is wrapped up, she brings it to their truck while a man in the group is on the phone. They pull the truck away from the dumpster and you can see police and an ambulance arrive minutes later.

Now take a listen to our cut 10. This is the police chief. They searched through the store video surveillance which showed footage at approximately 2 p.m. of a white Volkswagen Jetta pulling up to the dumpster. A female, later identified as Alexis Avila, exited the vehicle, removed a black trash bag from the rear seat of the Jetta, and then threw it into the dumpster. The female immediately got back into the Jetta and drove south through the alley. Based on the timelines in this surveillance video, the infant was in the dumpster for approximately six hours. Detectives were able to get a possible license plate of New Mexico AXM S67

from the surveillance video, which was registered to Martha Avila of Hobbs. Detectives and patrol officers went to this address and contacted Ms. Martha Avila and Mr. Domingo Avila of Hobbs. Detectives and patrol officers went to this address and contacted Ms. Martha Avila and Mr. Domingo Avila, who advised that their daughter, Alexis Avila, drove that vehicle and that she was asleep in the house. Straight back to Mary Kate Hamilton joining us CBS 7 in Odessa. So this young woman was tracked down through her tag, the car tag. Is that correct? Yes. What, if anything, did she tell police? Well, she told she did admit to throwing her baby in the dumpster. And that that was an admittance. But she also at her arraignment

hearing yesterday, they asked, what did you think was going to happen to the baby? And reportedly she just remained silent and looked down. And I think. It's not hard to gather what she thought would happen. Nancy, real quick, I just want to step in. Anybody who wants to defend her actions, keep in mind New Mexico has a safe haven law that is one of the most, no questions asked, no repercussions to turn the baby over to stop things just like this from happening. And that obviously was in place here, and it still happened. So she had options. She had a lot of options, and she had two supportive parents. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

This child, this infant with the umbilical cord still attached, was in that dumpster for six hours with people throwing trash on top. As Mary Kate Hamilton was describing the video, what if someone had thrown in an old chair or a very heavy bag of trash on top of the baby so it couldn't breathe? The baby would have died right there in a trash dump. Thanks to mommy. Now, you are hearing Dr. Alan Blockke, PhD. And if I'm ever charged with murder, I'm certainly going to call him because he is making a great case for the murder mom.

But let me point out how much she's lying. Take a listen to our cut 11. Alexis was given her Miranda warnings and she did agree to speak with detectives. During the interview, she said she was not aware that she was pregnant until January 6th, 2022, when she sought medical attention for abdominal pain and constipation. She explained that on Friday, January 7th, she was experiencing stomach pain and unexpectedly gave birth. She further explained that she panicked, did not know what to do or who to call. She stated that she then cut the umbilical cord, wrapped the baby in a towel, and placed the baby inside a white trash bag containing some trash, and then inside a larger black trash bag.

She explained that she then started driving around until she decided to place the baby inside a green-colored dumpster near the J.C. Penney store. Alexis was asked by investigators what she thought would eventually happen to the baby by placing him inside of a plastic bag and dumping him. Alexis remained silent and could not answer. So there she's saying she didn't know she was pregnant. But we know for a fact, do we not, Mary Kate Hamilton from CBS 7, that she was very open about her pregnancy at school and had quit going to school just before Christmas break and then told a different story to her boyfriend, the bio dad of the child, that she had had a miscarriage. Well, I will say as a journalism entity, we have not confirmed that yet. We have received plenty of screenshots of Snapchats and things like that, but we haven't quite confirmed

it. So I'm not going to confirm that. However, what I will say is, yes, she said she did not know she was pregnant until she sought medical attention for abdominal pain. And there, when she sought medical attention, she was told that she was pregnant and then she gave birth unexpectedly. But she knew she was pregnant on January 6th when she sought medical attention for abdominal pain. So right there, regarding of that right there, she knew at least before the moment she gave birth in the bathroom, she did know. We are told that she was very open about her pregnancy at school, that she didn't go to school up until Christmas, just before Christmas because of the pregnancy, and had told her boyfriend that she had a miscarriage. Stunningly, she is not behind bars. Explain Mary-Kate Hamilton. Well, she posted a $10,000 bond. And I think that's part

of what is very frustrating to people in the community right now. She was in jail for one hour and 18 minutes before she was released. And the baby was in the dumpster for over five hours. So people around the community are having a really hard time reconciling with the fact that she was in jail shorter than the baby was in the dumpster. And at her hearing yesterday, they have decided that she will not have to she will be on house arrest until trial. She can go to school. She can go to work. She can go to church if her family is there. And she can go to a doctor's office and seek psychological or medical attention as well. And that's something that people are having a hard time grappling with. So she was in jail less time than the baby was in the dumpster. Now, I understand that right now

there is a fight going on to get the baby. Who wants the baby, Mary-Kate Hamilton? It's allegedly been reported that the father of the baby would like the baby. How old is he, 16? Yes. Okay, that's a recipe for disaster right there. We also understand that grandparents are going to fight for the baby. To Kathleen Murphy, another recipe for disaster. If they didn't know their daughter was pregnant and she gives birth in the bathroom and tries to kill the baby, why would they have the baby? And with the mom, the bio mom living right there in the home, who's already tried to kill the baby once.

I don't think that's going to happen. But you know what? I was in court yesterday and courts don't do what we think they're going to do in domestic cases. They're going to make a test of, first of all, in order for a grandparent to intervene in that case, they not only have to have a substantial relationship with the child, the parents have to be in active litigation. That's in North Carolina. So this is not going to be a family law case, perhaps, but an adoption case. Because at this juncture, somebody is going to have to have legal custody of this baby in such a way that, I mean, it's either going to be the mother, the father, or the grandparent.

If social services is going to be able to even step in and place this child with the family. Do you think I trust social services, DFACS, Department of Family and Children's Services? Oh, hell no. I had social services on the phone yesterday. No way. Too many children have died under their watch. To Dr. Ellen Blotke joining us, clinical forensic psychologist out of Birmingham who is defending the alleged murder mom. I mean, wow, who should I believe? You are my lion eyes. I looked at the video, Blotky. She wasn't crying. She didn't think twice. She didn't hesitate. She threw that baby right in the trash and burned rubber, taken off. She couldn't get away fast enough. Now I'm hearing

about all of her lies. You know what? Let me move on with you, Blocky, because I know what you're going to say about that. But what do you think, Dr. Blocky, about the custody of this baby boy? Well, I mean, clearly we want this baby boy to be with a loving family member, father, grandparents, anybody that's deemed to be the best to be able to provide a stable and loving and protective environment, clearly. You mean a blood relative? Sure. That's the same family that didn't know that the daughter was pregnant, the adult daughter.

A blood relative, but not one of the ones that made some bad decisions. Bad decisions? the baby almost died she threw the baby away trying to kill it dr blotky that's more than a bad decision no this girl should not have custody i'm not saying that clearly i'm talking about a close family member who can who can who can provide a stable and loving home environment. Would that include the girl's mother and father? It doesn't sound like it because they're the ones that were part of the problem. You know what?

I do have to agree with you on that, Dr. Blocky. They are part of the problem, and that may be a bitter pill for them to swallow. But if you can't tell your daughter is pregnant and she's gone to the doctor with abdominal pain, gives birth in the bathroom, and you don't know anything that's going on, I mean, you know, Dr. Bernard Cohen joining me, professor of pediatrics and dermatology at Johns Hopkins Children's Center, author of Pediatric Dermatology, there would have to be multiple symptoms that she was pregnant. Oh, yes, I think that. I'm sure. I'm sure.

I can't believe that they didn't know she was pregnant. And she actually made it public to her friends in school. So, I mean, the parents might be in denial, but I think they all know that she was pregnant and she knew she was pregnant. You know what's interesting, Dr. Bernard Cohen, and I'm saying interesting much the way I would look at a tarantula under a glass case, is the large number of children that are wrapped in plastic in a bag and thrown away. I mean, of course, I can point to Tot Mom Casey Anthony and little Kelly being wrapped in a black trash bag and thrown away. But it happens quite often. I've got cases here from, well, actually, you know, take a listen to Our Cut 17. This is a Vegas baby in a dumpster. All week, police asked the community's help to

find the people responsible. Officers say they found those people, the baby's parents. Take a look at your screen. This is Raul Ramos and Adriana Hernandez. Officers arrested them today. The mother and father faced three counts of child abuse or neglect and one count of destroying slash concealing evidence. Their three-month-old baby boy was found dead in the dumpster over the weekend. So that is in Las Vegas. Now take a listen to our cut 14, Florida baby in a dumpster. This is the dumpster where that crying newborn was found. Now thankfully she was found when she did. She was taken to the hospital. She's expected to be okay. Now it was before the heat of the day, before it started raining.

Now, I asked the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office what kind of leads they had tonight. And they told me that, sadly, they don't have any. I mean, I could go on and on and on. I've got 20 pages full of babies in dumpsters and plastic bags. What does that mean, Dr. Bernard Cohen, when you and Kathleen Murphy, who deals with domestic law, see parents, adults every day begging to adopt a child. But people, on the other hand, are throwing them away in trash bags. Dr. Cohen? I mean, from my standpoint, it's insanity.

And I mean, I understand the potential here that there may be some psych issues and that these abusive parents or families need to be evaluated. But certainly these kids need to be protected from this setting. That's obvious. you giving the mother, if I can use that term, of this little baby boy the benefit of the doubt and suggesting she may have a sight issue to Mary Kate Hamilton, in my opinion, which nobody asked for, she knew very well what she was doing. And I see it very clearly. Under the law, you're either insane or not insane at the time of the act. Insane means you don't know right from wrong at the time of the incident. She knew right from wrong.

She hid her pregnancy from her parents. She lied to her boyfriend that she had a miscarriage. She double-wrapped the baby in trash bags and threw it away and took off speeding. She knew what she did was wrong. Ergo, she was saying what's going to happen to her now. And it was a vulnerable victim, Nancy. And I'd like to make one comment on the bond. This fall, you know, I think everyone can that's outraged that the mom is sitting at home. And by the way, that was ten thousand dollars unsecured bond. It's not ten thousand dollars secured.

So they put up one thousand dollars. That's that's where you go. And keep in mind, this is a product of a national trend called bail reform. And it's not only affecting cases like this, but just standard attempted murder, murder cases, felonious assault cases. People are literally spending less time behind bars than it takes the officers to write the report. And that is a reality across the country.

Listen, I'm not being any harder on this mother, Alexis Avila, than I would be on anyone else that tried to murder a baby. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Signing off. Goodbye, friend.