Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mom disappears at midnight, her boys dead by ax. Now Susan Powell’s parents WIN AGAINST DSHS!

Episode Date: October 22, 2020

The parents of missing and presumed dead mom Susan Powell sue Washington state Department of Social and Health Services for the deaths of their grandchildren, and WIN. Is this the end of the case? A judge's ruling may change everything.Joining Nancy Grace today: Chuck Cox - Father of Susan Cox Powell Sherilyn Joi - Jury foreperson on Cox Powell Jury Anne Bremner - Attorney for Chuck and Judy Cox Rose Winquist - Investigator - www.winquistinvestigations.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Levi Page - Investigative reporter Crime Online  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. No one will ever forget the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom of two, Susan Cox Powell, and then the tragedy that befell their family even after mommy goes missing. But right now, a stunning turn in the case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. anything this morning. They're not responding to calls, so they're not responding to people pounding on their door. There's no tracks coming out of their driveway. Are they out of town? I haven't had anything from them saying that they would be out of town and worried that maybe gas has been left on or something like that.

All right. I have them notified. Okay. You're welcome. Bye-bye. You are hearing a 911 call where Josh Powell, Powell's mother, is desperately calling 911. With me, an all-star panel to break it down, put it back together again, and give you the very latest in the case of Susan Cox Powell. With me, Rose Winquist, investigator at winquistinvestigations.com. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Rose Winquist, investigator at winquistinvestigations.com. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and now the star of Poisonous Liaisons on True Crime Network, Joseph Scott Morgan,

CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Levi Page. Sherry Davis, special guest, joining us, jury foreperson, Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer joining us out of Seattle, and special guest Chuck Cox. This is Susan's father. Chuck, do you remember when you guys became very concerned you couldn't find Susan? Absolutely. It's clear. What happened, Mr. Cox? How did you first learn your wife, you couldn't find Susan?

Well, Josh's sister, Jennifer, called me from Salt Lake City, where she lives, and told me that they couldn't find Susan or the entire family. The whole family was missing. That is a stunner. You know, Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer joining me out of Seattle, you don't hear that very often. You know, you and I have covered cases together for a long time, and very rarely do you hear of an entire family just vanishing. Well, exactly, Nancy. And that was what was so stunning about this case, that they were all missing. And then, of course,

we know that Josh Powell really didn't have any answers. You know, interesting because very often, for instance, let me go to you on this, Dr. Angela Arnold. So, you know, my husband travels a lot for business. and typically he texts in immediately when he lands and then hopefully when he gets to his first meeting. If I don't hear from him when I think I'm supposed to, at first, you know, it bothers me, but I don't hop on a plane and fly to wherever he is. I wait for like four or five hours. In this case, Mr. and Mrs. Cox, they sense something. What is that feeling? It's almost a premonition, Dr. Angie.

Well, and you also have to wonder if that premonition was backed up with some prior behavior that made them worry about this. Yeah, you know what? You're actually right. Guys, take a listen to more of ID Murder Mystery. On the morning of December 7th, 2009, the Powell family is reported missing. Later that evening,

Josh Powell returns home with his two sons, but there's no sign of his wife, 28-year-old Susan. Josh rolls down his passenger window and I asked him where he's been. So Josh tells them that at about midnight the night before, he decided to take the boys winter camping. I asked him why he would leave and go camping in the middle of the night when there's a snowstorm coming in. And he said that he did this all the time. It wasn't anything uncommon. And his boys wanted to go out and camp and have s'mores. So the detective asked Josh why he hadn't answered the phone all those hours they were trying to call him. Josh said he was conserving the battery because he didn't have a charger. But there was a charger right there in plain sight.

He told me that Susan should have been at work. And I told him that Susan was not at work. And that's why we needed to go down to the office and talk. So let me understand this, Mr. Cox. Susan's missing. And the husband, Josh, rolls up in the car and says, oh, I took the children camping. You know, we're big campers, Mr. Cox. I don't know if you knew that or not. We take the twins camping and RVing all the time. Rule number one, don't pitch a tent in the dark. Rule number one.

Rule number two, always have your chargers with you. So his story was that the boys, how old were they at the time, Chuck? I believe they were two and four. So let me understand, Ann Bremner, he takes a two-year-old and a four-year-old camping in the snow at midnight. Yeah, presumably they're both in diapers, but that's what he said, and that's why the case was so incredible from the beginning. I mean, that's— Well, you know what? I know your take on it, Ann Bremner, because you've been standing by the Cox family from the get-go. I'd like to go to a special guest joining us, the jury foreperson on the Cox Powell jury, Sherry Davis.

Ms. Davis, it's a real honor to speak to you. Very rarely do we get to hear what a jury actually thought when you heard that fact. What did you think? Very hard to listen to some of the facts that were presented to us. What we had to keep reminding ourselves was, even though these tragic events happened to the children, that is not the trial that we were on. And you kind of had to keep that in check in your mind. You know what? It's so reassuring for me to hear your voice, Ms. Davis, because you seem so level-headed and calm. And that is exactly what we need on juries. The only juror of mine that I've really gotten to talk to is my dentist. I coincidentally got a dentist years later,

and he, as he was working on my tooth, said, you know, it's on your jury, right? It's a jury. And since then, we've talked about it, you know, years later, but I'm just so relieved to hear your voice of reason. Guys, we're talking about the disappearance of Susan Cox Powell. Her husband claims he takes their children, ages two and four, out camping at midnight in the snow and that Susan should be at work. Take a listen to more of ID Murder Mystery. Police look around and they find something very odd. Susan Powell's purse is there. Her wallet's there. Her keys are there. Also inside the purse, they find this small key. They're not sure what it goes to. And on top of that, they find her snow boots at home.

So why was Susan Lee without her purse, her wallet and keys, and her boots when it's been snowing out? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We were talking about the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom, Susan Cox Powell, and the tragedy that befell their family even after her death. Susan is dead. Her body has never been found, but mommy disappears leaving behind a two and four year old little boy. She would never do that.

In the last hours, a stunning turn in the case. But first, listen to this I.D. murder mystery. A West Valley City detective is assigned to the case. I am retired detective Ellis Maxwell, and I was the lead detective on the Powell investigation. As I entered into the house, it didn't appear that somebody entered the home to rob them or kidnap them or anything like that. As we walked through the residence, I noticed that there was two box fans that were set up in the front room that were in operation, blowing towards the carpet. Also, it appeared that somebody had cleaned the couch. The carpets hadn't been cleaned, just this one couch.

So that was kind of suspicious. Straight to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and so much more. Now the star of Poisonous Liaisons True Crime Network, Joe Scott, with this abundance of circumstantial evidence, I don't know quite where to start. So they go in and they see nothing amiss. Everything's in order except jump in, Joe Scott. Well, yeah. The one thing that they see that is in question is this wet spot that fans are blowing on on the sofa. And, you know, there's several conclusions that we could arrive at here.

Maybe somebody just incidentally dropped something on the sofa. They got it wet. They spilled a drink. Or maybe somebody sustained trauma in that specific spot. Let's think about the construction of a sofa, or maybe somebody sustained trauma in that specific spot. Let's think about the construction of a sofa, Nancy. If somebody is relaxed, seated on a sofa, what do you have access to? Well, you've got them in a relaxed position. You can literally walk behind them and do great harm to them without them ever suspecting it or knowing it. And that's one of

the questions that comes to mind for me, because there's no other signs of struggle. There's no signs of forced entry. There's no signs of theft of anything. It's just that one central area. And as the detective had mentioned, they were right to consider this. This is something you have to, you know, who puts up fans in an area to dry this spot out specifically? So it could be an indication that something nefarious has happened. With me, Rose Winquist. She's a renowned investigator joining us. You can find her at Winquist, W-I-N-Q-U-I-S-T, winquistinvestigations.com.

Rose, thank you for being with us. I understand that the boys, after the dad brings them home, after he tells cops about their midnight camping trip in the snow, they were questioned and they drew pictures of where mommy was.

What were the drawings of? Well, Nancy, the drawings were well nancy the drawings were um actually sometime later and they were uh that mommy was uh buried that that if you if you wanted to kill a bear you bury it under the dirt and you plant a tree or you plant flowers on top of it. And as time went on after Mommy had disappeared, the boys started to talk a little bit more and expose some things that I think their father didn't want them to talk about. And, Brimner, what was exposed?

Well, at first they drew a picture of a body in the trunk of a car of their mom. And then there were a number of statements like, Mommy's in a mine. Mommy went camping with us. She didn't come back. Didn't they say Mommy went in the caves looking for crystals? Yes, exactly, Nancy. And then she didn't come back with them in the car. Mommy, in one of the drawings, was in the trunk of the car?

Yes, she was in the trunk of the car. Yes, she was in the trunk of the car. I mean, you know, Ann, you know what I went through to have the twins. We were together. I remember, yeah. And I have up over the microwave right now pictures they drew when they were in kindergarten. And it's Lucy drew me in my Braves T-shirt and my black tights as usual with yellow hair sticking out. And that's the way she drew me.

I'm in a picture holding hands with her. John David drew the whole family, all of us holding hands. If they had drawn me in a car trunk, I mean, I just don't understand why this was never taken to trial, Ann. I don't understand why Josh Powell, I hate to even say his name, was not tried for murder. I know.

And the DA in Salt Lake City, West Valley City, wanted a body, but they had this safe deposit box with their last will and testament saying if anything happened to her, he did it. The blood in the house, you know, the concocted story, you know, $3.5 million in life insurance that Josh took out on Susan. I could go on and on. Plus, they had issues in their marriage right before this happened, and she was talking about leaving him.

Issues in their marriage? Yes. That's certainly putting perfume on the pig. Right. Isn't it true, Mr. Cox, that Susan's husband, Josh, had a father that was later convicted as it relates to lewd photos? And he had been spying on your daughter and taking her underwear and her hose. And I remember in one scenario, he set up pillows as if they were a person on the bed and put her picture at the top and made out with the pillows.

This is her father-in-law and Josh Powell knew about it and blamed her. He was a sick, sick person. And her husband, yeah, no one would have believed any of that. And actually, we didn't have any idea of that till after, well after the fact. And once they got into Steve's information and stuff. Thousands and thousands of pictures taken, including her when she didn't know that she was being photographed. And that's how they had to live. And didn't the father-in-law live with them for a period of time?

Yes, they lived with him. And to have that every day. And she would rebuff his advances. It just went on and on. She didn't want to leave the boys. The bottom line, Ann, she was the breadwinner. She was the happy mom with the children. And he couldn't

take it. He could not take it. Exactly, Nancy. And he was completely controlling with the money, with the kids. He had to ride a bike to work. Sometimes she had to put the kids in the basket of the bike. I mean, she... Did you just say she had to ride a bike to work. Sometimes she had to put the kids in the basket of the bike. I mean, she... Did you just say she had to ride a bike to work? She had to ride a bike to work. He used the car and he didn't work. And they had to have daycare even though he didn't work. So there were all kinds of issues in the marriage. You know, he was a very, very controlling

person and also emotionally abusive. And at least from one report, he hit her in the face dr angela arnold help me i mean one of your expertise is is dealing with women with these type of problems of course susan herself didn't have the problem internally the problem was josh powell and it sounds like josh powell's family was a problem too. A big problem. And he let it happen. Can I tell you something, Dr. Angie? Do you know, since I met my husband when I was in college, his mother and father and I never had one crossword. Not one. That's like unheard of. With all of this going on, I don't understand how Josh Powell escaped going to trial. Oh, I don't either. But the years rock. Yeah. The years rock on and nothing happens. And even after mommy is presumed dead,, Josh Powell is allowed visitation.

He gets to be with the boys. How did that happen? With clear evidence that he killed Mommy? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the disappearance, no, the death of Susan Cox Powell, although her body has never been found. Now we have her killer, her husband husband Josh Powell, with the little boys. Take a listen to this 911 call by Elizabeth Griffin Hall, social worker. Hey, I'm on a supervised visitation for a court-ordered visit, and something really weird

has happened. The kids went into the house and the biological parent whose name is Josh Powell will not let me in the door. What should I do? What's the address? It's 8119 and I think it's 89. I don't know what the address is. Okay. That's pretty important for me to know. Sorry, I can't. Just a minute. Let me get in my car and see if I can find it. Nothing like this has ever happened before at these visitations, so I'm really shocked.

And I could hear one of the kids crying, but he still wouldn't let me in. But I think I need help right away. He's on a very short leash with CSHS and CPS has been involved. And this is the craziest thing. He looked right at me and closed the door. You don't know the address of where you are and you're babbling on and on and on. We hear a child crying and screaming inside. Listen to more of that 911 call.

I'd like to pull out of the driveway because I smell gasoline and he won't let me in. You want to pull out of the driveway because you smell gasoline but he won't let you? He won't let me in. He won't let you out of the driveway? He won't let me in the house. Whose house is it? He's in the house and he won't let me in the house. Whose house is it? He got the kids in the house and he won't let me in. It's a supervised visit. I understand. Whose house is it? Josh Powell.

Okay, so you don't live there, right? No, I don't. No, I'm contracted to the state to provide supervised visitation. I see. Okay. Okay, so you're supposed to be there to supervise Josh Powell's visit with the children? Yes, that's correct. And how did...

And he's the husband of missing Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan B. Susan children. Yes, that's correct.

And he's the husband of missing Susan Powell. How did he... This is a high-profile case. How did he gain access to the children before you got there? I was one step in back of them. Okay, so they went into the house and then he walked you out? Yes, he shut the door right in my face. All right, now it's clear. And Brivner, how did he have the children? Why was he getting to be with the boys? I mean, that was a big question in our trial. There were

46 red flags as to why he shouldn't have visitation with those kids, one of which was he killed his wife. And the kids were witnesses, so the kids could be in danger by being witnesses, by being with him. But 46 red flags, CPS violated their own policies and procedures. They didn't tell the judge. They didn't ask the judge, like, can we put him, you know, in the home. But they did. And that's when he hatcheted them to death and set them on fire and killed them. And it was an egregious, terrible case and one in which CPS, you know, should hang their head in shame for for what they did and what they didn't do. And listen to this.

Hello. Hi, ma'am. Were you calling about the fire in the 8200 block? Yes. It's closing the house. Ma'am, do you know the exact address of the house? It's 8-119-189-742-2. Okay, stand by. Do you know if anyone's in the house?

Yes, there was a man and two children. I just dropped off the kid. He wouldn't let me in the door. Okay, stand by for the fire department. Okay, I'm going to get them on the line. Do not hang up. Hold on. Joining me is Sherry Davis, jury foreperson on the Cox Powell jury. Sherry, again, thank you so much for being with us. Mr. and Ms. Cox sued Washington's Department of Social and Health Services after Josh Powell murdered his two little boys and blew up the home. Why did you believe they were responsible in part? They did not follow their own policies and procedures that they had in their manual.

They did not properly train their employees. They did not have a solid safety plan. They were 100% responsible for those children, and they lost custody as soon as that door slammed. Did you hear her on the phone, not knowing the address, fumbling around moving her own car so she'd be safe while the boys are in there crying and screaming? Yeah, that was very hard to listen to. But they knew that he was a risk. They knew that he was a slight risk.

They knew the background. Certainly there should have been a safety plan so that the 911 operator, the police department, anybody would be easily warned if there was a problem and situation that happened. What I don't understand, Ms. Davis, with me is Sherry Davis, jury foreperson on the Cox Powell jury, is how Josh Powell got to be with the boys unsupervised to start with? I don't know either. That's a great question. I mean, the father-in-law, his father had all those pornographic images and he had the boys in the home where the father was. He's a sex offender but Josh Powell let his children be around a sex offender and not only that he killed Susan I mean when you were listening to the evidence what possible excuse did DFACS

Department of Family and Children's Services give oh they blamed it on everybody else but themselves everybody else they blamed it on the sheriff and the police department not exchanging information. But when it comes down to it, it's their own policies and procedures that failed those children. You know, Ms. Davis, I was just listening, I just played, which I'm sure you heard the defects worker saying he is on a very short leash with child services. You know, it's Josh Powell of the famous Susan Cox Powell case. She went missing.

Clearly, they knew what had happened. They knew all the details, but yet they still let the boys in his clutches. Yes. Yes, they still allowed it. And this is the result of that. It's all on them. The big bombshell right now, Ms. Davis, is that a judge has intervened in your verdict. What was your verdict after hearing what happened to Braden and Shirley? We unanimously as a jury found the state liable for the deaths of them. And

in the jury questions, we were asked how much we would award the state. And we awarded the state $115 million. So after hearing it. $5 million, what? $5 million for every minute that they lost custody of the children until that house exploded before they were relinquished of their responsibilities. And isn't it true, Ms. Davis, that you guys learned that the boys not only endured the explosion in the home, but their necks had been chopped as well?

Yes, we did. That was horrible. It was a horrible accident. Ms. Davis, when you and your jury awarded a $100 million verdict to Susan Cox's parents over what defects put them through resulting in the death of the two boys, did you ever imagine that another judge would come along and tamper with your verdict? No, never. Never would have thought that would ever have happened. Ms. Davis, if you could just stay with us one more minute. Levi Page, explain what has happened in the last days to the verdict that Sherri Davis and her jury awarded.

So the judge in the case, Judge Rumbaugh, said that he thought that the jury was going by their passions in setting such a high dollar verdict. And he said, quote, it's not the size of the verdict alone. Most certainly that is an indicator. It's whether the size of the verdict in light of the evidence produced shocks the conscience of the court. And in this case, it does. So Judge Rumbaugh cut the jury's award to $32.8 million to Susan's family. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about not only the disappearance and presumed death of Susan Cox Powell, but the horrible, brutal butchering of her two little boys at the hand of her husband.

With me, the jury foreperson, Sherry Davis. Miss Davis, when you learned the judge had cut your verdict after all the days, all the hours, the deliberation, the suffering, the jury went through hearing all of this. What did you think? I felt like, why even have a jury if you're going to throw this out? Why even put us through all of this and then just say, well, you know, whatever. Okay, we're going to reduce it. It doesn't make sense. In your mind, Ms. Davis, what did your fellow jurors go through? What bothered the jury the most as they heard the facts unfold?

It was the negligence of the state and all their processes that occurred to lead us up to that point. What happened when that door slammed, we were not being, we were not judging that. That was not part of what we were considering. We were considering was the state liable and how did they lose custody of those children and why did they let those children be with Josh in his own home? That's what we were judging. In your mind, Ms. Davis, what stuck out is the clearest problem with Josh Powell having the boys? Every visitation that he had in a state-run facility,

he was pushing the point of what he could get away with. And every time it was something else. It was bringing a knife to cut pumpkins. It was bringing a hammer to work on a project. Weapon. He was bringing weapons to every visitation. How come that was not stopped? And then they still allowed him to have visitation in his own home. Miss Davis, with me, a special guest, jury foreperson on the trial in the last hours, a stunning, stunning blow to the victim's family. A judge, in all of his so-called wisdom, slashes the jury award to the Cox family after losing not only their daughter, but their two grandboys to murder at the hands of their son-in-law. Ms. Davis, what do you believe, after hearing the evidence, pushed Josh Powell over the edge that ended in the murder of his two boys?

I think it was accumulation of different things. Utah was getting close to a possible arrest. The photos were going to be released that were found on his home in Utah. And he was being postponed from getting the children's custody back. He was having to go through a psychosexual evaluation. I think it was accumulation of a whole bunch of different things that just pushed the button. Ann Bremner, what does she mean? You've explained this to me before about Josh Powell was about to undergo a psychosexual evaluation, and what would that mean to him? I think Sherry Davis is right.

She's absolutely right, and it would mean a polygraph, and that was what he feared most, a polygraph that could include questions about Susan Cox Powell and her disappearance. Nancy, can I interject? There was simulated child pornography, cartoon child pornography found on his computer, along with bestiality pornography and incest pornography. That's why he was having to undergo a psychosexual evaluation. And that's the man who had supervised visitation with this kid. And did the jury know about the child sex porn simulation and the bestiality videos? Did the jury hear that? Yeah, there were 400 images, Nancy, on Josh's computer in Utah.

They called it cartoon porn, but it was pretty graphic. And of course, Steve Powell had all kinds of pornography in the house where the children resided. We called that house a house of horrors. There was a news singing from the ceiling, gallows, and all kinds of pornography in that house. So there was a lot of evidence of pornography connected to Josh Powell. Take a listen to our friend Ben Tracy at CBS News. As arson investigators continue to search through what's left of the Powell home, the medical examiner now says seven-year-old Charlie and five-year-old Brayden Powell suffered chop injuries to their head and necks. The sheriff says their father, Josh Powell,

then started the house on fire. We found two five-gallon cans of gas. One of them was with the bodies. The other one, we believe, was spread throughout the house. There was accelerants throughout the whole entire house. Police say before he carried out the murder-suicide, Powell donated his son's toys to charity and left instructions about his personal effects in multiple emails. He sent some emails out to family and a pastor and some other people, making sure that everybody knew that he was gone, that he was the one that did this. He had put a plan in motion and he carried it out.

Powell had been under police scrutiny following the suspicious disappearance of his wife, Susan Cox Powell, from their Utah home in December 2009. Six days ago, he lost a battle with Susan's parents for custody of his sons. It's hard for me to believe, Joseph Scott Morgan, there was not enough evidence to take Josh Powell to trial for murder, the murder of Susan Cox Powell. Yeah, yeah, no kidding, Nancy. I'm just absolutely struck by this idea that the state mandates that, you know, this guy be treated in a particular way and they don't follow up with it. Well, if you've got enough information that gives you that this guy is a deviant to begin with, and then you have this poor woman who has been missing for years,

how can you not move forward with a case? And one other thing I just want to kind of circle back to here, Nancy, we talked about this wet spot that was on the sofa with Susan much earlier. And, you know, the idea here, for me at least, is that she was attacked. And what do we know about these boys for the medical examiner? They were attacked with an instrument that was a chopping instrument, Nancy. I think that just like a lot of these cases that we see, these perpetrators utilize a particular methodology for killing somebody that they

get comfortable with. And this is up close and personal, Nancy. I think that he probably applied this for Susan and he applied this to these babies as well before he set their bodies on fire. Rose Winquist, investigator at winquistinvestigations.com. I just heard that Josh Powell has sent emails to people, including a pastor, about what was to become of his family. People that got these emails didn't act on it. Wasn't it clear that a tragedy was impending? Yes, Nancy, I think it was very clear, especially he,

I think he made a couple of phone calls as well. They were simultaneously, I think, sent so that people didn't really have enough time to act. And he just went about pouring the gas in the house. I think that probably happened before he even sent emails or made phone calls. But it was clear that he was saying goodbye and that he was responsible for killing his children and himself. To Chuck Cox, this is Susan's dad. When you look back on everything that happened, and now a judge has come along and slashed the verdict, it's not just about the money.

It's the point. What goes through your mind, Mr. Cox? Well, nothing's going to bring back Charlie Braden or Susan. However, we were planning on making a legacy or using the funds to do a legacy on their behalf and to address the issues, the problems of DSHS, how they were not following their policies. And we wanted to make sure that this doesn't happen to other children because if they're not following their policies, they will continue to put children in danger. They will continue to have these issues.

And so we were battling that, those issues. And it's just the judge, Rumbaugh, in this case, he started out clearly as in favor of the state's position. And the more he learned, he came back to more towards neutral, but in the end, he just turned around and went back to his bias and substituting his opinion for the jury. He was not the trier of fact in this case, the jury was the trier of fact. And that's why we wanted a jury trial, because we were not getting an unbiased trier of fact with the judges. They all work for the state, and so that's very difficult to do. So here we got the jury, and now the judge takes it on himself to just reduce everything and basically try and make it go away.

And that's what everyone's done with these children in the whole case is trying to make it go away. People have not done their jobs. So I don't know what I can say about it except for the jury did a great job and we want to make sure that we support them and appeal this arbitrary decision of the judge and get things back to where the jury found them. Pierce County Superior Court Judge Stanley Rumbaugh has basically, and I don't know what the twins this, pissed on the jury verdict.

Ann Bremner, please tell me you are appealing this. We are, Nancy. I mean, he said it was unconscious passionate prejudice. As you well know, Nancy, it has to be manifest to overturn a jury's verdict. I mean, jury verdicts are sacrosanct. This jury served through the pandemic five weeks before five month hiatus. And they came back for three more weeks in a socially distanced trial with masks on. I mean, they were an amazing once in a lifetime jury. And you heard Sherry. She's incredible.

And he that that sacrifice, that attention, that diligence that they showed. He just decided to slash the verdict by two-thirds. I don't think he should even be on the bench. Pierce County Superior Court Judge Stanley Rumbaugh. He needs to be off the bench, Ann. I'm very surprised there's not been a recall effort. What exactly is the county and the jurisdiction where he is? Pierce County, Washington, which is Tacoma. Pierce County.

Pierce County, and that's in Washington, Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington. Yes. I'm very surprised there's not a recall effort for this judge. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.