Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mom disappears at midnight never seen again, her boys dead by ax, now Susan Powell’s parents sue DFACS!

Episode Date: September 18, 2019

The parents of missing and presumed dead mom Susan Powell suing Washington state Department of Social and Health Services for the deaths of their grandchildren. The two boys were murdered during the father's court ordered supervised visitation.  Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the civil trial: Darryl Cohen, former Assistant District Attorney; Jeff Cortese,  former FBI Special Agent; Karen Smith, Forensics Expert. Bare Bones Consulting; Dr Daniel Bober, Psychologist ; Anne Bremner,  Attorney for Chuck and Susan Powell; and reporter Levi Page. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As arson investigators continue to search through what's left of the Powell home, the medical examiner now says seven-year-old Charlie and five-year-old Brayden Powell suffered chop inju necks. The sheriff says th then started the house on gallon cans of gas. One o

the bodies. The other one spread throughout the hou throughout the whole enti say before he carried out Powell donated his son's toys to charity and left instructions about his personal effects in multiple emails. He sent some emails out to family and a pastor and some other people, making sure that everybody knew that he was gone, that he was the one that did this. He had put a plan in motion and he carried it out. Powell had been under police scrutiny following the suspicious disappearance of his wife, Susan Cox Powell, from their Utah home in December 2009. Six days ago,

he lost a battle with Susan's parents for custody of his sons. You are hearing our friend at CBS, Ben Tracy. In the last days, a major advance in the case regarding Susan Cox Powell and her beloved boys, Charlie and Brayden Powell. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I remember like it was yesterday when Susan Cox goes missing. She had been having so many problems with her weirdo husband, Josh Powell, and his freaky father-in-law.

But she stayed in the marriage because of her two boys, Charlie and Brayden. And then one night, about midnight, husband Josh Powell says he takes the two little boys camping in the freezing cold. Listen to his explanation. Why take your two young sons camping after midnight, freezing cold temperatures? Well, we just go out and do things that are fun. But it's after midnight, you know, shouldn't your sons be sleeping? Weren't they sleeping? People who know me know that time is hard for me to keep track of. I tend to be spontaneous. I do things in the spur of the moment.

Why not call work the next morning to say, hey, I was out camping. I'm not going to be in today. To be honest, Saturday was a blur. I was convinced it was still Saturday. Convinced it was still Saturday, my rear end. That's a load of BS. And amazingly, that night he takes his two little boys, little boys, out camping at midnight in freezing cold temperatures. Amazingly, that same night, his wife, Susan Powell, goes missing. She has never been seen again, nor has her body been found. Now, he is allowed to see the boys. Why was he allowed to see the

boys? What was DFAX for the state of Washington thinking? Department of Family and Children's Services, CPS, Child Protective Services. But they let him. They let the boys stay in the home. Take a listen to our friends at NBC. In 2009, Powell was named a person of interest in his wife Susan's disappearance. He was never charged with a crime, but in September, lost custody of his boys to Susan's parents allowed only supervised visits. I think he was very selfish and that's why he took the kids. If he couldn't have them no one could have them. Police say before his boys died in the fire Josh hit them both with a hatchet. Jennifer Graves is Powell's estranged sister. The thought of those babies suffering and they must have because they weren't dead when they when the explosion was done they suffered and they died.

The heartache and panic from Sunday still vivid for that social worker too. She just opened the door the kids were one step ahead of me. They're five and seven. They were one step ahead of me and he slammed the door in my face. The social worker's husband says his wife is devastated at the loss of Charlie and Brayden. She had, of course, bonded with these boys. She had taken them to a number of visits before

and was very close to them. And it's just, well, as I say, it was devastating to her to have had this happen. Our friends at NBC, earlier you were hearing ABC, an ABC interview with the dad, Josh Powell. He doesn't even deserve that title, dad. Joining me in All-Star panel, and I'm going to kick it off, with the attorney for Chuck and Susan Powell, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Ann Bremner. Ann Bremner, let's just get right down to it. You know how I feel about social services, about child protective services, department family

children services. I think they all ought to go to jail because I have had it up to my eyeballs with children not being supervised and ending up tortured and dead. Dead. And in this case, same thing, Ann Bremner. Why were these children even having visits with a father who killed his wife? I mean, isn't it true, Ann Bremner, when the boys were asked, where's mommy? Just you tell it, Ann. What picture did they draw of mommy? They had one of her in the back of a car, in the back of a van, in the trunk of the car. They talked about their mommy being in a mine. And of course, they were witnesses. Wait, wait, wait, wait, Ann. Ann Brimler's with me, and she is a renowned trial lawyer. Ann Brimler, just, you just spit it just spit it out like I've turned on the cold water.

No. In my kitchen, Ann Bremner, and I still have it up, when the children, I think, were in first or second grade, they drew a picture of my family. And there I am, of course, wearing my black tights and a pair of boots and a brave shirt and my hair all crazy. And there's David in his work outfit. And they put happy, mommy's happy, mommy this, mommy that, daddy this. I'm not in a car trunk. That is not how they drew me. Okay. So let's just pause right there. Tell me slowly, Ann Bremner, what the picture was the boys drew of the last time they saw Mommy.

They had a picture basically of her in the trunk or back of a car. And remember, like you just said. In the trunk. In the trunk. She's not in the way way back watching a movie in the car video. Mommy stuffed in the trunk and... It's a terrible case, Nancy. I mean, I don't think we need a shrink to tell me what that picture means, but I just happen to have one of the country's foremost forensic psychologists with me, Dr. Daniel Bober. I mean, Bober, no offense, but I think we all know what it means when the the little boy's picture of mommy

and she's in the trunk and daddy and the boys are driving and then they say where's mommy she's in the what they say and the the mine shaft or the crystal mine mommy was in a mommy's in a mine mommy was looking for crystals and then he had a drawing of a family outing showing Susan in the trunk of a car. Okay, Bober, you're the shrink. What does that mean? Yeah, Nancy, you don't need a psychiatrist to figure this one out. I mean, very often these pictures are representative of kids' feelings because they can't verbalize their feelings.

And so they use pictures to represent what they're feeling. So this is something that's pretty straightforward. It doesn't require a lot of interpretation. So explain to me, Ann Bremner, how in the H-E-double-L does daddy, with a picture of mommy in the car trunk, how in the H-E-double-L does he get visitation? And now the boys are dead. Social services was part of this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. There was a man and two children. I just dropped off the children and he wouldn't let me in the door.

The social worker who brought seven-year-old Charlie and five-year-old Brayden to their father, Josh Powell's home, immediately called 911. There's two little boys in the house and there's an adult man. He had supervised visitation and he blew up the house and the kids. From the beginning, it was clear this was no accident. And you think he might have done this intentionally? Yes. Police say Powell planned the double murder a day before, purchasing 10 gallons of gas, transferring $7,000 out of his bank account, even giving away his children's toys.

Hello, this is Josh. I'm calling to say goodbye. Powell then left this chilling voicemail with family and friends 20 minutes before he torched his home. I am not able to look out my eyes and I'm not able to go on anymore. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt. Goodbye. Oh, please just

spare me your I'm sorry. You're not sorry. You murdered your wife, Susan, and you got away with it. And then you murdered your two little boys, Charlie and Brayden. And the devil's henchman is social services, Child Protective Services, because they went along with these visits. And I don't care if you say supervised visit, supervised schmoofervise. If he wanted to kill these children, and we already know he's a murderer, then a single woman unarmed is not going to stop him. What we know now is there has been a major development in the case. And joining me right now, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, the lawyer for Chuck and Susan Powell, Ann Bremner. Ann, what is the development?

We're suing Child Protective Services in the state of Washington. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. They're finally going to be held accountable. Now, I hear you say sue, S-U-E. That's civil court. Only in criminal court can somebody go to jail. I think they should go to jail. But this is a start. Ann Brenner, tell me about the lawsuit that Susan Powell's family is bringing against child services. It's a case alleging that the state and child services failed to protect the kids from Josh Powell. And it's a bigger issue, Nancy, which is they've always had an emphasis of reunifying families at any cost versus looking at the best interests of the children. We want the focus, of course, to be on the latter.

It should have been in this case. It's basically there were red flags in this case. Number one. Red flags? Ann. Ann. Ann. Ann.

Now, you know how much I love you, Ann. You and I have shopped for lipstick together. Yes. That goes a long way with me. And I happen to know you'll only wear one type of lipstick, which is now no longer being manufactured. What is it? Something like crazy red? It was Chanel.

Yeah, it was a Chanel pink, number 169. You always remember. Yeah, that's right. And I've got that written down by your name in my iPhone. But for those of you listening right now, what did you say? Chanel 169 something pink? It was the lip gloss. I don't make it anymore, Nancy. I know, but maybe there's some bootleg out there we could find. I don't know how, how could I possibly say red when it's clearly pink? Karen Smith, forensic expert, is probably just like just shaking at the thought of such a mistake.

But you and I go way back, Ann Bremner. We do. Don't just pass this off. This is a big deal for all the mistakes social services has made over all the years with all the children ending up dead on their watch, including Charlie and Brayden. Finally, somebody is taking them on. Take a listen to our friends at TV5. This is Jed Boll. Cox said that his attorney suggested that he sue the state and Child Protective Services, but he says that's as far as it's gone right now. But he does want more answers and safeguards for other children in similar circumstances. Last week, we discovered Josh Powell had hundreds of images of disturbing cartoon sex

and graphic depictions of incest on his home computer. That's something Utah authorities investigating the disappearance of Susan Cox Powell kept private for two years. A Washington state psychologist saw those images only six days before Powell killed his boys and blew up his home. PRIVATE FOR TWO YEARS. A WASHINGTON STATE PSYCHOLOGIST SAW THOSE IMAGES ONLY SIX DAYS BEFORE POWELL KILLED HIS BOYS AND BLEW UP HIS HOME. CHUCK COX SAYS HE ALWAYS HAD CONCERNS ABOUT SUPERVISION DURING POWELL'S VISITS WITH THE BOYS. We felt there should have been some armed police officers or three or four people at least just to make sure nothing went on there.

NOW THE COX'S AND SENATOR PAM ROACH WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT EVIDENCE THE DIVISION OF CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES HAD ON POWELL. EVIDENCE THAT MIGHT HAVE BLOCKED HIM FROM VISITING THE BOYS AT ALL. REPORTS LAST WEEK REVEAL POWELL HAD BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH NARCISSISTIC

PERSONALITY DISORDER. HE HAD ALSO BEEN ORDERED TO UNDERGO A PSYCHOSEXUAL EVALUATION. YET HIS VISITATION RIGHTS CONTINUED AFTER THAT COURTROOM SETBACK. SO THEY KNEW HE HAD MENTAL ISSUES, PROBLEMS AND HE WAS

UNDER A GREAT AMOUNT OF STRESS. THE SENATOR AND THE BOY'S GRANDPARENTS WILL HOLD A MEETING THURSDAY TO EXPLORE WHAT THE SENATOR CALLS SERIOUS PROBLEMS WITH CPS AND TO OFFER SOLUTIONS FOR

SITUATIONS THAT MAY JEOPARDIZE A CHILD. AND AS FOR SUING THE STATE, THE SENATOR WILL BE RELEASED TO THE COURTROOM TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN PUTTING HIM INTO CONTROL. THE SENATOR WILL BE RELEASED TO THE COURTROOM TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE the senator calls serious problems with CPS and to offer solutions for situations that may jeopardize

a child. And as for suing the state? It has been discussed. It's being considered. Well, it's not just a thought anymore. That lawsuit is on. And when I think about these two little boys, Charlie and Brayden, already having lost their mom, actually being in the car when their father disposed of her body. And now they're dead because social services did not bring out the evidence against the father who murdered them. To Ann Brim, a high-profile lawyer out of Seattle. And when the images were found on the dad, Josh Powell's computer, cartoon images about incest, what exactly are we talking about? What were the images? They're images of incest, mom, kids, dad, kids, very graphic. And in some jurisdictions,

that's criminal, even though it's cartoon. There were 400 images and they were known to CPS. And yet he still had visitation. And they were considered by Dr. Manley, who was evaluating him and talked about narcissistic traits, etc. And, of course, wanted a psychosexual evaluation, which would have meant, as you know, Nancy, a polygraph and a plesismograph. Oh, what a graph. Because I saw Jackie Howard's head just spin around. And she doesn't understand it. I know a lot of people don't explain. It's basically a testing for deviant arousal, which could include incest. Okay, now, wait, Let's just break it down, Ann Bremner.

When you say deviant arousal, and you just glossed over that so quickly, it's a test to, you know what, Bober? You're the forensic shrink, Dr. Daniel Bober. Explain what she's talking about, and please talk in regular people talk. Basically, Nancy looks at erectile response to certain images, and they look at baseline images of normal heterosexual behavior. And they compare it, for example, with deviant images of children. And they look at the arousal response to the penis. Ann Bremner, instead of undergoing the polygraph and the plethysmograph, he killed his children and then killed himself.

And social services had those records. They were evaluated just six days before the children were murdered. Look, the other night, I woke up in the middle of the night because I was worried. I'm going to take the children camping. And I was worried, who's going to stay with my mom? And I was worried about the caretaker to make sure she knew all the details. 3 a.m. I was texting her. You can't tell me that six days pass and they have this knowledge and they do nothing about it.

And now the boys were chopped dead with an axe. And not only that, but what people don't realize about this case is that there had been more secure visitation sites, but this was not the case when the boys were killed. It was in the home that he had staged. It was a rental and there was no quote unquote supervision other than somebody bringing the kids into the house. So there was no security there and no true supervision, at least from our perspective, at the time that the boys were hatcheted to death and then set on fire. Can I just say, joining me, former FBI special agent Jeff Cortese, that the apple don't fall far from the tree.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Susan was very, very sexual with me. She was very flirtatious. I mean, I'm her father-in-law, and she would do a lot of things that, I mean, she was just, she did it, I did it. I mean, we interacted in a lot of sexual ways because Susan enjoys doing that. Do you think a part of you started falling in love with Susan? That's pretty likely, yeah. I mean, yeah, I would say so.

And there's no question in my mind that the feelings were mutual. That is total BS. That is Josh Powell's father who was convicted for all of his eavesdropping and spying and illicit photos of Susan Powell, claiming there was a relationship between them. And catch this, Josh Powell went and lived with his dad after Susan was murdered. And he condoned this. His own father would get Susan's clothing, including her underwear, out of the dirty clothes hamper, lay it out on the bed as if in the shape of a person, and then put her picture on top of it, her photo, her head,

and then make out with her clothes. There were, Ann Bremner, help me out, how many hundreds of images were there that Josh Powell's father had, illicit images? Oh, too many to count. And there were seven different computers or more, and he was filming the little girls next door naked, and so many pictures of Susan that he would morph her, including putting his private part near her mouth in a picture, things like that. And you know, when Child Protective Services took those kids, they were aware that these images had

all been, that were there from the father, and also aware that that was a house where there's a noose hanging from the ceiling and a picture of a woman with a sword up her vagina, and then private things belonging to Susan. He was obsessed with Susan. And now Susan is dead. Levi Page with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Josh Powell's father went to jail. Are you familiar with that case, Levi? Yes, he went to jail for everything that we're talking about now. And then he died a couple of years later, not that long ago, Nancy. And this guy was really sick. And this entire family, the Powell family apparently was very

troubled because there's Michael Powell, the father of Josh Powell. He got rid of his vehicle not long after Susan Powell vanished and police seized that vehicle and they detected human decomposition inside that vehicle. A cadaver dog detected that. And then a year after his brother, Josh Powell, committed suicide, Michael Powell committed suicide in 2013. And police believe that those two brothers, Josh Powell and Michael Powell, along with their father, knew exactly what happened to Susan. And that's very disturbing that the three of them knew and did not tell law enforcement about it. To FBI Special Agent Jeff Cortese, Jeff, I mean, in my mind, this is a treasure trove of evidence. And I don't understand why authorities did not

act when they could. And they kept letting these two little boys go for visits with the father. Jeff, this scene was so staged. I mean, Powell blew up the house with the children in it, but only later was it learned that he chopped them with an ax first. And in my mind, social services is right there in it. Nancy, this is one of those cases that is incredibly difficult to consider and think about. And, you know, I try to put myself in the position of the other law enforcement officers who are investigating this case, and I can't even imagine what they felt going through this process. You know, they had a great deal of evidence, as you pointed out. It was everywhere.

But ultimately, law enforcement, if Susan Powell is determined to be dead, then what they really want is to find the body. And, you know, if there was any opportunity missed, potentially, it probably is the December 8th to December 10th window, so just a couple days after Susan Powell went missing. It turns out Josh rented a vehicle, disappeared for a couple days, traveled 800 miles, at least put 800 miles on the vehicle. I think that that was a window of opportunity that may have been missed. He could have been meeting with co-conspirators. Coincidentally, his father was called in sick

over the December 8th and December 9th time period. You know, the whole thing is a travesty. The evidence is everywhere. There were opportunities missed. But as far as child services, the writing was more than on the wall. Well, and here's the way the whole thing shook out to Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle and the lawyer for the Powell family. What we know is that the grandfather, Susan's father-in-law, Josh Powell's father, was convicted of child porn and voyeurism on little girls. But following Susan's death, her disappearance, he, Josh Powell, was allowed to take the children and move in with his perverted dad in Washington State, taking the little boys with him. Stephen Powell, the grandfather, was arrested for child porn Washington State, taking the little boys with him.

Stephen Powell, the grandfather, was arrested for child porn. And that is when Susan's family, the Cox's, filed for custody of the boys. They got temporary custody. And long story short, I don't understand how social services went along with the two little boys getting visitation with their dad that murdered their mom. It should just be common sense, Nancy. That's what we've always said. If there's probable cause to believe that a parent caused the disappearance of another parent or killed them, they shouldn't have access to the children. We even tried to get a law passed to that effect in Washington State with Senator Roach. It didn't pass, one like it did pass in Utah, you know, where Susan had lived previously. But that's a very basic concept. On that fateful day, and listen to this. Social services allowed this dad, this murderous father,

with child porn cartoons on his laptop, have visitation three days a week with the little boys. On that day, he had a scheduled visitation day with Charlie and Brayden. As they come to the door, he quickly grabs the boys, pulls them in, and shuts and locks it. He axes them dead and blows up the home. Listen. Hey, I'm on a supervised visitation for a court-ordered visit, and something really weird has happened. The kids went into the house, and the biological parent, who's famous Josh Powell, will not let me in the door. What should I do?

What's the address? It's 8119, and I think it's 89. I don't know what the address is. That's pretty important for me to know. Just a minute. Let me get in my car and see if I can find it. Nothing like this has ever happened before at these visitations. So I'm really shocked.

Really shocked? Then why did you let the children go in the house without you? Now, listen to the rest of this call. I don't understand why they were having visitation. They were one step ahead of me and they slammed the door in my face. And you think you might have done this intentionally? Yes. I don't understand why they were having visitation. Help me out, Ann Brimner. And what is the purpose of the lawsuit? This is a major development. Social services for the state of Washington finally being sued.

Well, the purpose is to shift that focus, like I talked about, to the best interest of the children. This is the worst case I think that any of us have ever seen in terms of a child custody matter or visitation involving a state. And my clients don't want the deaths of these children to be in vain. They want their children's lives to mean something to the safety of all future kids in the state of Washington that may be subjected to confines by the state or dictates by the state, visitation, foster care, et cetera, or custody. We really want people to see the kind of red flags that should be looked at. Like in this case, there was a search warrant issued by a judge a judge found probable cause that josh had killed his wife they knew that the state of the home the porn in the home the fact that josh had taken out 3.5 million dollars in insurance on his wife and

kids the fact that he was despondent about the psychosexual evaluation the fact that he was controlling the kids the fact that the kids were now speaking more and more about what they saw that night. When they were two and four, they're getting older and they're articulating what they saw. They were witnesses to their mom's demise. All of those things were of great concern, but yet they were ignored, those signs, those red flags. Do you believe, Ann Bremner, do you believe that in social services files there was damning evidence against Josh Powell, but he was allowed to have visitation with the boys, even though social services knew all of this information?

It's our contention, Nancy, in this case that they knew all of this information. Have you ever been able to look in those files? Have you ever seen what's in them, Ann Bremner? I have, and we've conducted discovery in this case for quite some time, and we've been up to the Ninth Circuit and back in this case, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and the files have a lot of information about the visitations, but they also have information about Josh Powell. They never even determined whether or not he was complicit in the pornography that was in that house where the boys were residing. They never figured out whether or not there should be a domestic violence assessment of him. There never was one, even though there was probable cause to believe he killed his wife.

All of these kinds of things are in the files. Everything's written down. But actions speak louder than words, or inaction speaks louder, frankly, in this case. And that was not acting quickly enough to save them. Not acting quickly enough, years go by. And then six days before the boys are murdered, you have a shrink looking at all of this incest porn, child porn, cartoons. But they did nothing.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In a court filing this past Wednesday, he made a strong appeal. I've proven myself as a fit and loving father who provides a stable home even in the face of great adversity. A lesser person would fall under the intense scrutiny I am facing. But the judge requested a lie detector test and further evaluation I don't think the order of the evaluation caused this I think that this has been coming it's been brewing for a long long time and even though the family begged the court for help those visitations were in place and they were allowed. The boy's grandparents say they are convinced that Josh Powell saw the kids as his own, like possessions,

and he didn't want anyone else to have them. Her blood sister told me the parents begged for him not to have visitation at all. I mean, come on, what more do you want? The mom has been murdered. She was taken out of Josh Powell's home and murdered with the boys in the car. He also had them in a scenario with his father, who is now behind bars for child pornography. Under these circumstances, the judge should not have ordered visitation at Josh Powell's home. And who could have stopped that? Social services now being sued. That was me speaking with ABC's Neal Karolinski and Bremner.

This lawsuit that the Powells, who you represent, are filing against social services could be a landmark case across our country. What do you think? I hope so. I really hope so. I mean, I've practiced law, Nancy, now for 36 years, and it would be my greatest honor and achievement to see that happen in this most tragic case. Karen Smith with me, forensic expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. To you, Karen Smith, what do you expect will be in those child services files? Listen, you've got photographs of the crime scene. This is all discovery, Nancy. Everybody pretty much should have everything at this point. The police report all of the information that the homicide detectives, the patrol officers who first responded to the house and saw floor fans in the house pointing at a sofa that had freshly been cleaned along with the carpeting. Clue phone, it's for you. They did testing on that sofa. They sprayed luminol on it and the carpet. There are impact spatters all

over the place, which is indicative of some kind of blunt force trauma. The blood came back to Susan Powell. I don't understand, first of all, how charges weren't brought right then, and let alone Department of Children and Family Services ignoring all of that in the face of her disappearance and these two little boys and their safety. I am dumbfounded right now, Nancy. Well, listen to this. And child services knew this. The day after Susan goes missing, four-year-old Charlie tells the cops he knew exactly where his mom was, that they had all gone on a, quote, midnight drive, and she stayed at a place the boy called the, quote, Dinosaur National Park. That, quote, my mom stayed where the crystals are because it has so much pretty where the crystals grow.

That's what he told police. But knowing that, child services still did not open up their files and allow a judge to make an informed decision. Let me understand something to Ann Bremner. Is it true that two of the social service workers have gotten immunity? There was a court finding of immunity in this case, qualified and absolute immunity. And also, Nancy, with respect to those Utah files, a court there had a gag order on a sealing of those files. One final thing on that issue, Nancy, one of the caseworkers in our case

said people in Washington State at CPS couldn't look at other states' evidence. That is a lie. That is an outright lie. I don't believe that for one minute, Ann Brimner, when it comes to the safety of children. Absolutely. That's why we have so many changes now in terms of cooperation

between states and other different agencies. It's to make sure that we don't have problems like this where there's information that's not fully known. But it was very public about the camping trip, about what the kids had said. And of course, like I said before, there was that search warrant affidavit and a finding of probable cause by the judge. And the warrant included all the things we just talked about in terms of probable cause for the belief that Josh Powell killed his wife. You know, the signals are so alarming. One day, Charlie comes into kindergarten and says his brother was dead.

And more and more would start to say odd things about death. Clearly, the murder of his mother was gnawing on this child's mind. To Karen Smith at Bare Bones Consulting, there was a treasure trove of evidence, but it was ignored, and now the boys are dead, Karen. That's an understatement. I can't believe the amount of evidence that police found in this house. Blood evidence alone, Nancy, not including the cars, not including the human decomp, not including what they found at

the abandoned car at the airport. I'm talking about the initial search warrant served at this house with the carpeting and the couch that were being dried by floor fans. Listen, they did their job. They sprayed luminol. They had the blood stain patterns. They had everything. They did the DNA testing. They did the swabs. It all came back to Susan Powell. I cannot understand. I understand they want the body. You don't have to have one to bring charges against someone. And I have had cases with a lot less evidence and a lot less information than this case brought charges and a conviction in a court of law. So I am I'm really struggling with understanding why Josh Powell was not arrested and grilled in the box to find out what the heck happened. Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent, what should have happened? I think ultimately what should have happened is charges should have been brought.

I think certainly the evidence was there with the blood splatter. I mean, the case is riddled with evidence. Everywhere you look were signs of foul play. Everywhere you look were overt actions by Josh to avoid implicating himself. You know, handing over cell phones without SIM cards, disappearing for a couple days. You know, the brother's car. The investigation from top to bottom is sufficiently filled with evidence. I, like you and your other guests, are a little dumbfounded, to say the body, but at the expense of dragging this out and exposing others in connection with the death of the two little boys has been set.

It will go down at the Pierce County Court in Washington. What do you want the outcome to be, Ann Brimmer? I would like to see a jury, and it will be a jury, make findings that red flags were ignored in this case. I'd like to see a jury acknowledge that there should be certain protocols in place in this state to make sure that kids like Charlie and Brayden aren't horrifically murdered. And I'd like to see a public airing of this case so that everybody, all the citizens of the state of Washington can see what went right, if anything, and what went wrong to make sure this never, never happens again. And I'd like to see a focus on the kids, just the best interest of the child. It's so simple. We don't want to reunify families when

this is going to happen, this kind of tragedy is going to happen. We see it over and over and over again. We have to look at what's best for the children and follow that every single time. Well, apparently I'm not going to get my wish and that is for social services to do hard jail time because I believe they were aiding and abetting a situation that ended in the murders of little Charlie and Brayden. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.