Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mom makes boyfriend special dinner and romance after they allegedly brutalize, kill & dismember her 10-year-old girl together

Episode Date: January 2, 2018

Victoria Martens body was found in pieces, but the autopsy suggests the 10 year old was strangled to death. Her mom, her mom's boyfriend and another woman are all awaiting trial for the young Albuquerque girl's murder. Nancy Grace explores the latest in the case with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, New Mexico lawyer John Day, lawyer/psychologist and host of Investigation Discovery's "Fatal Vows" series Dr. Brian Russell, and CrimeOnline reporter Ellen Killoran. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. her 10th birthday. The whole thing is beyond anyone's conception that this could happen, especially to a little 10-year-old child. According to her autopsy, after she was strangled and killed, Victoria was then stabbed and dismembered. The medical examiner wrote some of her vital organs were found in a plastic bag. This is horrible, but it appears that she died from strangulation. According to the medical examiner's report, sometime before she was killed, the 10-year-old suffered abuse and contracted a sexually transmitted disease. There was evidence of sexual abuse, both in terms of rectal trauma. Her mother, Michelle Martins, is now charged with Victoria's death. Martins' boyfriend, Fabian Gonzalez, is also charged with killing the child.

His cousin, Jessica Kelly, is the third suspect in this case. It was a hot August day when the body of a 10-year-old little girl, Victoria Martins, was found in an apartment building. What happened? This 10-year-old little girl was wrapped in a blanket in this apartment, and we know that she was partially dismembered. What happened? What led up to a 10-year-old little girl's dismemberment, her death, her body being disposed of. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want to go straight out to John Day, lawyer, a renowned lawyer in the New Mexico jurisdiction. John, how did you get involved in this investigation and case? Nancy, I'm a former prosecutor and a criminal defense attorney,

and I also serve as the on-air legal analyst for the local ABC station in Albuquerque, KOAT. And we've been following this in great detail because obviously it's a horrifying crime. Investigators and lawyers and people at the courthouse who have seen horrifying crimes over the years say this is the worst that they've ever seen. You know, John Day, again, thank you for being with us, along with Joe Scott Morgan, Dr. Brian Russell from Investigation Discovery and Crime Online, investigative reporter Ellen Killoran. John, I want to go to the discovery of her body. That is where all murder investigations start. Tell me the conditions of that discovery. So I've talked to people who have seen the lapel video,

the police officer's lapel video, and you show them coming up the stairs to this apartment in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and you see him going into this disheveled apartment, and you see him going into a bathroom, and apparently what you see on that lapel video is the thing that horrifies people the most it's this little girl who had just turned 10 the day before she's in a bathtub and her body's on fire clearly clearly uh joseph scott morgan Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, death investigator, a haphazard attempt to hide the evidence. First of all, we typically see bodies placed in bathtubs.

That is an amateurish measure to control evidence. So blood, fluid, whatever evidence that may be related to the murder are contained in the bathtub, not soaked into carpet or rug fiber, not on the walls. And perps mistakenly believe that they can just wash it all down the drain. Joe Scott, are you surprised? No, no, I'm not, Nancy. And this sounds like something that was not very well planned out. And even in their attempts to maybe destroy evidence, they create more evidence along the continuum that we can follow. It just makes it a little bit more difficult to follow. But no, this kind of random haphazardness that goes into this,

it's not surprising at all. They didn't take their time with this to dispose of this sweet little girl's body in a way that's more methodical. They just did it right there in this filthy apartment. We're talking about a 10-year-old little girl, a 10-year-old beautiful girl. That's the age of my twins, John, David, and Lucy right now. And at that point in life, I mean, I did,

they still believe Santa Claus visits. They still slip their tooth under their pillow at night i mean they're scrubbed in sunshine their whole life is in front of them they still believe good things can happen to them to john day a veteran new mexico lawyer john what do we know about Victoria? She just turned 10. I know that. Well, the photos of this girl are, I mean, it's heartbreaking to see them now because, I mean, she is just, was just the cutest, most adorable thing. And you're trying to figure out how she looks that happy in these photos when clearly she's existing in this world of darkness.

I mean, the stories about her from school were that she was engaged, she was sweet, she was played with other kids. There were no outward signs, apparently, of anything. And of course, that's because kids are so good at trying to live a normal life when their home life is obviously a living hell. But she was outwardly just the sweetest thing. To Justice Scott Morgan, death investigator, we're listening to John Day, a New Mexico lawyer, describe what was seen on the lapel cam, like a shoulder cam on a cop that was called to this apartment.

What should they be looking for at the crime scene? This body has been found and still no justice. I'm talking about a 10-year-old little girl, Victoria. Joe Scott, what should they be looking at at the scene? Well, they're going to be looking for things that are very, very fragile. When I instruct my students in the way I conducted my practice, I assume that everywhere that I went in a crime scene was like walking through a minefield, if you will, Nancy. You assume that everything has value, that everything is dangerous. So they're going to be looking even for things like blood evidence, any kind of other body fluids that are there, hair and fiber. Also, we're talking about a case where this child was placed in a bathtub.

We're going to be looking for things like accelerants in here how did they initiate this fire fire has to have its it's it's a continuous it has to have a fuel source it has to have an initiator all those sorts of things so there's a myriad of evidence that's coming out not to mention any kind of trauma that has been inflicted on the body. There'll be evidence of things like that, like blood spatter, any kind of tools that were used relative to the body. So there is a myriad of things, and the police have to be very, very careful in this case. I want to hear you analyze what you think they were looking for immediately at the crime scene, Joe Scott.

My thought is that they're going to be under the idea that there could possibly be DNA evidence present in this particular case. Let's keep in mind, Nancy, that you've got a 10-year-old girl that someone is attempting to destroy the body of this child. And we have to, as investigators, think, well, why would you want to do this? You've already killed her. Why would you want to destroy the body in total? The idea here is that there are things on this body that maybe cannot be seen with the naked eye that are going to be completely wiped away. We've got three principles that are involved in this case. So there's going to be biological tiebacks to this particular case, generally in the form of DNA evidence. So back to you, John Day, New Mexico lawyer, joining me in addition to Dr. Brian Russell and Ellen Killoran from CrimeOnline.com. John Day, we've got the shoulder video, the shoulder cam of the cops going in. What led them there?

Why did they decide to go to that apartment that day? The police get a 911 call of a disturbance, like a domestic disturbance from neighbors at the apartment, and they show up thinking that they're probably responding to a run-of-the-mill domestic call when they begin to notice things. For example, there seems to be some kind of fire taking place inside the apartment. And what the police also learn later is that one of the three people in the apartment,

one of the women has jumped out the back, off a back balcony as the police are showing up and injures herself as she's doing it. But they don't know, they don't have any clue. They don't get a report of an assault on a child. They don't get any report other than a neighbor report of some kind of disturbance. Had she been having problems at school? Let me go to Ellen Killoran with CrimeOnline.com. Ellen, lead me up to the moment where this child's body, a 10-year-old little girl, is found on fire, dead and on fire, in an apartment bathtub. As we've discussed, all signs point to an outwardly very sweet, very loving, very happy, extremely trusting child. In the course of the investigation,

we've learned that she had actually written a note to one of the people who was considered a suspect in her murder saying that she liked having him around and he made her laugh and she enjoyed his company. She was just an incredibly trusting, happy, happy, loving child. Dr. Brian Russell joining us, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation Discovery's hit Fatal Vows series. Dr. Brian, thank you so much for being with us. I want to talk about the mind of a 10-year-old child.

I mean, when I was 10 years old, I didn't know where babies came from. Let's see. We only got to watch Doris Day, a Doris Day program. And what else? I think Hogan's Heroes was on. I would have to sneak dark shadows, okay, when I would get home from school before my parents got there. So I was definitely afraid of vampires, was convinced they existed. But other than that, I mean, you know, nothing of the world, nothing at all. And for a 10-year-old little girl to end up dismembered and on fire in the bathtub of this apartment,

I think this child had no idea of the world around her. Yeah, Nancy, one of the law enforcement officers involved in this case commented that it was the most gruesome act of evil he had ever seen. And that's really about the only way you can describe it. And in light of that, it really is a fascinating and horrific illustration of a couple of things. One is the resiliency of children. It's amazing that immersed as she was in what had to have been, you know, certainly this event was probably not the first horrific thing to which this child had been witnessed. And yet, by all accounts, at school, she was a lovely kid, engaged, active, trying to do well in school, trying to be a good student, a good friend. And it really shows you how, what an evil, horrific betrayal of a child's innocence it is to immerse her in the kind of world in which this girl was immersed at home. because what you can see here is she probably really

didn't have any idea of how awful her situation was. It's like, you know, when you're immersed in something, you don't know any different. And it's just the innocence lost, you know, and it really makes you stop and think as you have and as I am right now, we had things in our childhood, I'm sure, that we complained about, things we wanted that we didn't get. We thought our parents were depriving us of things at times, but they provided us with that security that we didn't even realize we had at the time. I want to pause and thank our partner that makes our program possible today as we investigate the horrific death of a 10-year-old little girl and search for answers. It's LegalZoom. What will your story be in 2018? Now the holiday rush is over,

LegalZoom can help you make this a memorable year before all the distractions take hold. Make this the year you finally get serious about launching and running your business. Rest easier knowing your family's future is squared away with the right estate plan. LegalZoom's been helping people like you take care of their dreams and responsibilities over 16 years. They're not a law firm. They have all the resources to keep you on the right path, including advice from their network of independent lawyers. All at your fingertips. Take a little pressure off yourself. Go to LegalZoom.com now. Whether you want to take your business to the next level or take control of your family's future with an estate plan, LegalZoom plugs right

into your life so you can take care of things that matter most. Get off to a strong start in 2018 at LegalZoom.com today. Special savings when you enter Nancy, N-A-N-C-Y in the promo code at checkout. LegalZoom, where life meets legal. The death of a 10-year-old little girl shocked the community and then the world. Joseph Scott Morgan with me, death investigator and forensics expert at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, again, thank you for being with us. I want to talk about the actual findings, the findings as to cause of death. That's where you start. You start with what the body reveals, and that is why it's so important, critical, that the medical examiner take their time and find every clue possible left on the body. What did we learn just from this child's body burning in the bathtub? Just from the child's body having been burned, Nancy,

and I was actually impressed that they were able to come up with this much information. And there's myriad of it. She was apparently strangled and beaten. And in addition to that, the medical examiner determined that she was, and this is very key, she was in fact sexually assaulted. And we get an indication of that, that this is not just something that he found as a result of some type of chemical test or DNA test or something like that, that there's actual physical evidence of this. And with a 10-year-old girl, one might expect to see that as well. So it really paints a rather horrific final moments in this girl's life. Tell me what you know, John Day, a New Mexico lawyer, joining us in the story of Victoria

Martin about this apartment complex where she was found. Can you describe it for me? It's pretty nondescript. It's pretty run-of-the-mill for Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's pretty nondescript. It's pretty run-of-the-mill for Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's a working class. The crime rate there is relatively high. I mean, you know, there's a reason that Breaking Bad was set in Albuquerque, unfortunately, a TV series about the meth dealers, and that's certainly the backdrop here. But, you know, John, every metropolis, every big city has bad crime areas, you know, from, well, D.C. is horrible, but from Atlanta to New York,

where they claim the crime is down, to San Francisco. I mean, every L.A., of course, has a crime, high crime area. So I'm trying to get my mind around. You said it was a working class apartment complex. What more can you tell me? It's just, you know, it's the typical New Mexico stucco buildings with metal railings. And, you know, it's full of the neighborhoods full of plenty of good people, obviously, because these are neighbors who were able to call 911 when there was something happening. But it's families trying to raise kids and send their kids to school. It's just your basic solid southwest sunbelt, a little gritty around the edges,

but it's not sort of the scruffiest part of town either. I mean, as I said, there are plenty of, if you go over there and you look around, there are plenty of toys in the hallways and big wheels and things that indicate that kids live there and that families live there. I also know that Victoria had a little brother. What do we know about him, John Day? The brother would go back and forth with Victoria, but mainly to his father, who is not connected. The police are saying he's not part of this. He apparently was horrified and had no clue

and nothing I've heard indicates that anyone thinks he had any knowledge ahead of this or any involvement. But the brother was apparently just as sweet, just as kind. I mean, people describe him as being just as lovely a kid as his sister was. Is it true to Ellen Killoran with CrimeOnline.com, is it true that Child Protective Services have been called not once, twice, three times, four times, but five times that I know of regarding Victoria? Is that true, Ellen? It's true that there were multiple calls made to Child Protective Services. One, the most significant one is a report that was made that one

of Victoria's mother's boyfriends had tried to kiss little 10-year-old Victoria. Yes, yes. Okay, wait, wait, wait. Right there. Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, and host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vows, tried to kiss a 10-year-old girl? He would have been out the door with my shoe up his rear end. I don't get it. A grown man, you keep

quote dating a guy that tried to kiss your daughter who had to be nine at the oldest when it happened. Well, what's that thinking on mommy's part? Well, it's absolutely disgustingly narcissistic for any parent to be willing to allow something like that, even something like that, which is on the low end of the horrific spectrum relative to everything else we know that happened to this little girl, to allow that to happen because you're getting something as the parent out of the relationship that you're having with the perpetrator is just the, it's the antithesis of mother, of father, of parent. And it really speaks to what you were saying and what I was saying a few minutes ago about how, you know, if you grew up the way that

you and I did, where you never had to worry that somebody was going to touch you inappropriately or somebody was going to beat you or try to give you drugs or something, you always knew that you were safe and secure. Whether you were perfectly happy with everything you had all the time, you always knew you had basic safety and security. You know, you had everything. You had so much. And to be thankful for that, looking back,

and cognizant of the fact that there are kids out there, wherever you are today, there are kids out there, probably not very far from you, who don't have that. Right now, an effort ongoing by police to obtain phone and social media records that they believe could shed light on the night this little girl was murdered, was found partially dismembered and on fire in an apartment complex, apartment bathroom, bathtub. What do cell phone records and social media records have to do with the child dismembered, a little girl dismembered, according to Joe Scott Morgan, having been sexually assaulted as well? The phone records are those of Victoria's own mother, Michelle Martins, and her boyfriend at the time, Fabian, and his cousin, Jessica Kelly. Why would they want phone records of mommy, her boyfriend, and his female cousin?

For the night her child is assaulted and murdered. Joe Scott Morgan, how do we know a 10-year-old, 10 years old, one day, how do we know she was assaulted? Well, Nancy, we know that she's assaulted by the physical findings that the ME found. And that's the stuff that can be seen with the unaided eye, if you will. Any kind of marks on the body, the trauma that was inflicted on her. They had said that she was, in fact, strangled to death, which means that she would have had hemorrhage in the soft tissues of her neck.

But then we have to expand out to things that can't be seen with the unaided eye like DNA and there are according to reports there are multiple DNA found on this child's person and we're not talking about things that you know in a modern vernacular that we use now like touch DNA which is only kind of a partial we think about touch DNA is kind of the sloughing of skin that falls away, that dies, and that sort of thing. We're talking about solid DNA here that is generated as a result of things like body fluids, semen, saliva, blood, that sort of thing that lends itself to connectivity. And that's what forensics does. And this paints a picture of what we do at the field and into the case. John Day, why do we believe the

mother, her boyfriend, and a female cousin are having their phone records examined? Nancy, we don't know exactly right now, but I can make an educated guess. As we know from warrants that were issued in this case and affidavits and other things that have been filed in court, Michelle Martins, Victoria's mother, told investigators that she would go get onto her computer and go online and seek men to engage in sex acts with her children. That's what she was saying, what she would watch for her own... Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Can you back it up and repeat?

Yeah. What we also know from pleadings in this case, affidavits, things that were filed by investigators, that there were statements by Michelle Martins, the mother, that she would go onto her computer and look for men. This is what she told investigators. She would find men online to engage in sex acts with Victoria. And so obviously, if you're an investigator, and if you're the defense, you want to know exactly what she's talking about. And

could this be part of what they're looking for in the warrants for the cell phones and the text and so on? I think it probably is. John, was the mother allegedly pimping out her daughter for money? Not for money. That's not what she apparently told investigators. It was a statement to the effect of, oh, I would do this, and I'd watch them engage in sex, and it was for my own pleasure. Now, you can take that for what it's worth. You look at the circumstances of when she makes this statement. Is there physical evidence that the investigators have found or they're looking for that validates that, that backs that up? We don't know yet, but that's obviously

someplace they have to go. Dr. Russell, you're the psychologist. I've got to go to you on this. I mean, how did this child, if she's enduring all this at the hands of her own mother, how did she keep up in school? I mean, every photo I've looked at, she's got this beautiful mop of light brown hair, this big, huge smile on her face. To me, she looks like a very, very young Valerie Bertinelli. She's just gorgeous with always the big smile, Dr. Bryan. That speaks to the resilience that we were talking about, Nancy, of kids. It's amazing what a kid can go through and still put on a smile. And you see it when you travel around the world to places where kids are living in horrific conditions and they don't know. It's

like if you have a fish in really yucky, dirty water, the fish doesn't know that there are other fish in clean water. And it's sort of like that with kids. And it's just so heartbreaking to see a kid living in conditions like the ones in which this girl apparently was living and to still be happy. Nancy, I'll bet you this little girl loved that mother as awful as it sounds to even say that. I want to go to Ellen Killoran, investigative reporter on CrimeOnline.com. But first, let me thank our partner who is making our investigation into the death of Victoria Martins possible today. And it is super beats.

You know, I don't know if you spend a lot of time mulling your circulation or why you feel fatigued sometimes. But circulation, as we all know, is crucial to your energy and stamina. Pumping oxygen and nutrients throughout your body so you can exercise longer or simply do everyday activities. Take care of your children, get to work, recover from injuries more easily. But what can you do to promote healthy circulation? Well, here's an answer. Super Beats. It's Super Beats, B-E-E-T-S, promoting your body's own natural ability to produce healthy circulation. For increased energy, stamina, only Super Beets is made from beets grown to very exacting standards. Then they are concentrated down into superfood crystals. If you want to improve your circulation, call 800-516-0683 or go to nancybeats.com.

N-A-N-C-Y-S-B-E-E-T-S dot com. Now listen to this. With your first order, you get another free 30-day supply of Super Beats. Free. Plus indicators trips to show how Super Beats works for you, plus free shipping. You're not going to get that at the vitamin store. Call 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeats.com today. Ellen Kaloran, Crime Online investigative reporter. You have exhaustively reviewed search warrants, investigative reports. What have we learned? What have you been able to piece together as to what happened just preceding the death of this 10-year-old little girl? Well, one of the things that we know for absolute sure is that these three adults were in the home with the girl the night that she was horrifyingly killed.

There is a possibility, based on what we know the police are looking at, that there may have actually been another witness or possibly even another person in the apartment that night. The police have, obviously this is a very, very active investigation, and the police are not revealing a lot. They're not giving press conferences or anything at this point, but what they are doing is clearly looking for the possibility that other people knew things. I think that speaks to your question about the phone records and the social media records. I think that investigators believe that the adult in the apartment during the time of this horrifying assault and murder may have been in contact with other people. And in fact, one of them did tell police as she was apprehended that there were more people in the apartment.

On top of that, police have obtained, I think, something like 200 pieces of DNA evidence that they're combing through right now. And I imagine that that's all leading to finding out exactly who was there and when. But as far as understanding why on earth anyone would do this thing to a child on her 10th birthday when she was planning on having a birthday party just hours after she was found is incomprehensible. And we don't have any idea what the motive could be yet. That night, the night that she was killed, to John Day, a New Mexico lawyer who is working, who has been pulled into this case. John Day, what are the allegations against mom of that night that lead up to Victoria's brutal murder. The allegations are that this mom had met online this guy, Fabian Gonzalez, and Fabian had a cousin named Jessica Kelly who had been in and out of trouble with the law,

had been locked up. She had a number of different convictions for different things. And what we know at this point, according to the allegations and what the investigators have found, is that the three of these, these three adults were at the apartment and they were, they had meth and they were doing meth. And according to warrants that were filed at one point, the three of them or some combination held Victoria down to give her meth, according to the warrants, to make her relax. And the allegation is that they did that so that the adults could rape her, rape this sweet little girl while the mother watched and that's consistent with the things that the mother had said to the police after she was arrested that she would go online and find people to to have sex with Victoria while she watched so what what she was saying is consistent it's it's hard to even speak those

words and you know I've done this for 27 years and just reading over the warrants and speaking the words that are written down there are emotionally difficult. To Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, what would meth, how would that affect this child's perception of what was happening to her? Yeah, you know, Nancy, when I read this, I had to do a double take. As, as the counselor stated just a moment ago, they wanted to apply meth in order to relax her. Meth is not something you would apply to someone in order to relax. And meth is not just a stimulant, it's a hyper

stimulant. And as a matter of fact, it's used to knock down, or it could be used, much like cocaine, to knock down inhibitions. And so that paints a completely different story here. If you're trying to get a 10-year-old to be uninhibited, to not care what's going on with her, that sort of thing, where they're in an elevated state, that's what you would be trying to achieve with meth. So I don't know where this is coming from, where they came to this conclusion, but they are way off base with this. I want to talk about recordings, secretly taped recordings. Ellen Kalor on crimeonline.com, what can you tell me? There have been reports that indicate possibly that there were photos and possibly videos taken that night of what those people were doing to Victoria.

We do know that her mother had in the past met men is something that part of what the mother was doing, was getting off on, was actually taking photographs and possibly video of what happened. So it is possible that the horrifying things that were being done to Victoria were recorded on phone and video and possibly sent to other people. Joining me from L.A., who is also investigating the case, is Alan Dew. Alan, what can you tell me about recordings that we have obtained in this case? Well, you see, if you're in jail and you make a phone call, somebody's listening in or at least recording it and they can listen in. And that's what's been happening in this case. And there's, we do have some, and we can play them right now, some of the phone recordings

where the defendant is talking to her mom. Ellen, the tapes we are about to play that were secretly recorded behind bars, who, to whom are we listening? We're listening to Michelle Martins, the mother of Victoria, speaking to her own mother. And she's talking about, while not admitting any guilt in the actual violence, she's talking about feeling as though she failed her daughter. And she's feeling very sorry for herself. In other parts of the conversation, we don't know what they're talking about

because they know that these conversations are being recorded and they're speaking in code at certain parts of it so that the people listening in don't know what they're saying. Feeling like she failed her daughter. John Day, I mean, my head is spinning around.

Failed her daughter? She had a hand in her murder Her daughter, John Day, I mean, my head is spinning around, failed her daughter. She had a hand in her murder and her horrific, horrific sex attack. John? It's difficult to reconcile that. But, you know, the problem with jailhouse recordings, and I, on the one hand, my old prosecutor putting my old prosecutor hat on, I think a canny defense lawyer would be talking to a client in jail saying, remember, everything that you say, except to your lawyer, is being recorded either by audio or video. So remember that when you're talking to people, and that cuts both ways. If someone wants to get something out, that's a great way to do it,

because in a high profile case, you know that every media outlet within 100 miles is going to be trying to get those recordings. On the other hand, my defense lawyer hat now, I think that there are plenty of years ago, those videos and audio recordings of her conversations with her family that were so damaging and so revealing. You know what? You're so right. When she would scream at her mom and dad who were there every time they tried to talk to her about what happened the night Kelly went missing. Joseph Scott Morgan, You and I have seen more child abuse and child murder cases than I even want to remember. In fact, I try actively not to remember them. The thought of this mother behind bars after she is solicited for her own enjoyment, not for money, as if that would make it any better, to bring in guys to the home to molest her daughter while she sat there and watched.

Now the daughter is dead. I mean, it's almost more than I can take in, Joe Scott. Yeah, when you think that you've reached the basement, when you've gone down as far as you possibly can, there's always another layer in there, Nancy. And the depths of depravity here, you can't plumb the depths of it, and I'm amazed at, and I don't want to get off into the docs area here, but, you know, the narcissism that's involved in this, kind of the self-involvement, and you would even though it wasn't done for money allegedly the

the pimping out of this precious little child for your own personal gratification it's just absolutely sickening just down to its core as we wait for the system to move on this as we wait for justice for 10 year old victold Victoria Martins. Right now, an argument, a legal battle ongoing about DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid, and a technique that may be used in trial. John Day, veteran New Mexico lawyer. What is happening regarding the DNA? Well, they've got trial dates set. Each defendant's been trialed separately. They're still waiting on some DNA results.

Tons of DNA samples were collected by the investigators, and they need to get it analyzed. The problem is, in New Mexico, the state crime lab is backed up. It's having issues. It's having problems. And so the Albuquerque Police Department, the district attorney's office, has gotten permission from the court to send off to Florida for DNA analysis, a lot of these DNA samples. And they're in fact going to try to use a relatively new process that the investigators hope can elicit a lot more information in this case than previously could have been gotten. Joe Scott Morgan, what's the process?

The process that they're talking about is called StarMix, Nancy, and it's a relatively new technology that was developed out of New Zealand. And look, DNA, even for scientists many times, is very complicated. I'm going to try to break this down so that our listeners can understand it. If you're looking for one person, that's one thing. But in this particular case where this little girl has been just brutally murdered, we've got at least three principles involved in this thing. And let's keep in mind that we've got the females who are also involved. So it's not like we're just strictly looking for male DNA. And this DNA is overlapping, all right? This new technology uses a computer program that not only looks at the biology,

but it breaks it down with a mathematical model where these computations that this thing is doing are going into the quadrillions, if you will. And it's highly layered, highly complicated. And here's the big problem, Nancy. This thing has not met scientific rigor. It's been rejected in a lot of other courts. And so I think my thought at least is that when this comes to trial, I think that this is something that the defense attorneys are going to look at really hard because in any kind of scientific testing, we learn this even when

we're in the eighth grade and we're basically learning how science works. We know that you have to test something and repeat that test before the science is valid. The problem with STAR mix is that because it uses a computer program, it has what's referred to as a source code. That means the basic algorithm of this thing is plugged in, and it has not met scientific testing. What they're saying is blindly accept what this computer program is going to put out. We're not going to give you access to the source code, so they can't test it. And the defense is going to have a real field day with this, I think, when it makes it into court. I'm just worried about that. I would not jeopardize this case with a new technique until it is accepted universally across the U.S.

And it may be all well and good because, John Day, you're a veteran trial lawyer. The first time I ever tried a case with DNA, the crime lab people said, well, do you want me to bring in the labs? In other words, the pictures that they took under the microscope. I'm like, yes, bring everything. Okay, well, they started putting it up in court. It looked like undeveloped film. Big, long, one after the next undeveloped film.

I'm like, oh, dear Lord in heaven, what have I done? Well, I never did that again. So be careful what you ask, for you may surely get it. You know, you ask for all that data, fine, have at it. Because once I saw that, I never once again, for the remainder of my 10 years prosecuting felonies, every other week in front of juries, ever brought on the supporting DNA evidence

because you can't look at it as a civilian, a non-scientific person, and understand it. From then on, I would have them explain in easy-to-understand words, if there are any, how DNA works. And I would stay on them before trial, not when they're up on the witness stand, to explain it so I could understand it. I'm not a scientist.

I'm a trial lawyer. And if I could understand what they were saying, then I knew the jury would understand it too. So you don't want to come in with a brand new technique nobody else is using, get a conviction and then have the thing reversed. Uh-uh. John Day, what about the death penalty?

Don't have it in New Mexico. Haven't had it since 2009. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. So you can basically murder as many people as you want to in New Mexico, and you're still going to get three hots and a cot for the rest of your life, right? Yeah, I mean, you're not going to the DP. New Mexico has replaced the death penalty. It was life without the possibility of parole. Dr. Brian Russell, you've seen it all as host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vows. What do you make of it?

One of the things that we notice a lot on Fatal Vows is that the extreme narcissism that leads somebody to do something so evil as what we've seen in this case, fortunately for the rest of us, often also leads those people to make mistakes, to think they're getting rid of evidence they're not really getting rid of, to leave DNA around that ultimately ties them to the crime. And it's because they overestimate their own ability to get out of trouble. And so hopefully in this case, these perpetrators have done that and will ultimately see justice. Although, you know,

as is always the case on Fatal Vows, it's never going to bring back this beautiful, lovely little girl. We are waiting to see justice unfold. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.