Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mom of 2, Dead, Stuffed in Hockey Bag; HANDYMAN/LOVER BUSTED

Episode Date: April 22, 2022

Slain New York mother Orsolya Gaal's handyman/lover arrested for her murder. Police say Gaal and David Bonola had a two-year affair,  which had recently ended. The tension between the two was enough that Gaal reportedly posted a hand-written note to 'GET A NEW HANDYMAN'  on the refrigerator.  Chief James Essig says Bonola arrived at Gaal’s home between 12:30 a.m. and 12:40 a.m. on April 16.   An argument broke out, which continued in the basement where Gaal was stabbed with a knife from her own kitchen.  Police believe the suspect then stuffed Gaal in her son’s hockey bag.  Investigators searched the suspect’s garbage and found a bloody pair of work boots and other bloodied items.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Matthew Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney, Former Parole Board Member, Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States"   Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, (Atlanta GA) www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Mona Kay - Private Investigator, "Mona K Investigations" (Omaha, NE), Twitter: @monakay Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Stephanie Pagones - Digital Reporter, FOX Business & Fox News, Twitter: @steph_pagones See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous mom of two murdered her body, folded in a fetal position in a suitcase and dragged down the sidewalk of her high-scale suburban neighborhood, literally leaving a trail of blood from the suitcase to her side door of her own home. A home, we learned, that had a very extensive and sophisticated alarm system. In the last hours, busted, there has been an arrest in the murder of this gorgeous mom, or Sawyer Gale. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends ABC7. Topping our headlines of this hour, we have breaking news. Police make an arrest in the gruesome murder of Arsalia Gale in Queens. David Bonola facing several charges, according to police, including murder and criminal tampering. Gall was stabbed to death in her Forest Hills home on Friday, multiple stab wounds after an evening out. Her body was found about half a mile away, stuffed inside a duffel bag, and we expect to learn more at a news conference this afternoon.

Stuffed in a duffel bag. Now, who in the world would have access to that home not trip the alarm nowhere to find the son her young son's hockey bag have access to her phone know her code and take the time to stage the sceneending some bizarre text to her husband who was out of town in Oregon on a college shopping trip with his older son. Who would do that? Who would stage the scene?

Well, now we know. Straight out to special guest joining us, Stephanie Pagonas is joining us from Fox Business, Fox News, Digital Reporter. Stephanie, thank you for being with us.

Who is this guy? David Bonola. Police say he has no unsealed criminal history. He is a 44-year-old man who lives in Queens, not far from where the victim and her family lived. Police said he was the family's handyman. He had been working with the family for about two years. He also had been in an intimate relationship with Orsol Yagal for about two years. But the couple had broken up.

Hey, Stephanie. Yes? Can I tell you something? Thank you for not leading the murder case with the fact that she had an affair absolutely everywhere i turned that's the headline she slept with a handyman who gives a fig what she may or may not have done in her life or why she did it we know she had called the relationship off and we understand from his double confession one on video that he was trying to rekindle the relationship and she refused. I don't want to hear any victim shaming at all. For everybody on the panel, just brace for that. No victim shaming. I mean, think about it. Dr.

Angie Arnold, what if the worst thing, think about it. Everybody, including you, Jackie, who can do no wrong. Think of the worst thing you have ever done, something you've never told a soul, and that's going to be on your tombstone. That's going to be the headline on every, the New York Post, the this, the that. That's in the headline? Your sons, your children are going to know that? You know, Nancy, I think, I think that the reason these things are brought up and people shout them from the rooftops when something like this happens

is because we're all so scared. Like, oh my God, who's on the loose? Why did this happen to her? And then we have a simple, people, People believe that we have a simple reason. Oh, that's why it happened to her. And if I don't if I don't behave that way, then that won't you're right. I think it gives us, everybody else other than the victim, a false sense of complacency and safety because we think, oh, I wouldn't do fill in the blank. Go jogging at night. Go to my car in a parking deck after midnight. Go out to a bar alone. Have an affair with a handyman.

You know, you can fill in the blank to make yourself feel better like it won't happen to you. But that is certainly no guarantee. So back to you, Stephanie Pagonas with Fox thank you for leading this as it should be a mother of two a mother of two slaughtered in her own home now I was asking you who this guy is and did I hear you say correctly Stephanie Pagonas that he does not have an unsealed criminal record. Well, so that's correct. Meaning, though, that if he does have a criminal history, it would be sealed. And in that case, police would not be able to discuss it or even acknowledge its existence.

Is he a Mexican national? So we're still waiting to hear back from law enforcement officers regarding his immigration status, but police do say he moved here from Mexico 21 years ago. We've also heard from people in the neighborhood that he has two children. I believe they're actually grown now, and he was married before this. Okay, wait a minute. We can't determine whether he's in this country legally? I don't think it's that we can. It's that no one has yet been willing to speak about it. I believe every time police have been questioned about this, they say they can't answer the question. Our inquiry with ICE is currently pending.

Then, Gino, if I wanted to find out if you were in this country legally, I could very quickly, very quickly get a copy of your birth certificate. Yes, no, maybe. I think you could. You know, I think the police investigating this are probably working to make that determination. Yeah, I don't know that it's completely relevant to their investigation right now, but I think ultimately they're going to want to find that out. Well, I think it's very relevant. I think it's very relevant because if he has a criminal history back home in Mexico, I'd like to know about it. That said, I want to go back. But I take your point. Your point is well taken. Back to you, Stephanie Pagodas. How did this whole thing go down, Stephanie?

So more details actually came out yesterday during a police press conference in Queens. Police say Orsolia went to a show at Lincoln Center in Manhattan and returned to Queens around 11.20 p.m. last night. She then went to a restaurant. She returned home at 12. p.m and about 10 to 20 minutes later prosecutors said she let mr banola into her home there had originally been questions as to whether she let him in or if he used a key that had been hidden in the barbecue now the prosecutors say she let him in they then go down to the basement of the home her son was was upstairs. Hold on just a second. I want to, I hate to interrupt your incredible stream of facts, but I want to point out something to Mona Kay, private investigator,

joining us from Mona Kay Investigations in Omaha. Mona, think about it. She's got her son at home. Her young son. The young one, Leo, is 13. The older one, Jamie, is 17, off on the college tour with his dad. Think about this, Mona. It's this really ritzy neighborhood, and there in Forest Hills, it's really pretty.

I've driven through it a couple of times. It looks like a storybook. When you drive around in Forest Hills, it looks like it's out of a magazine or a storybook setting. Think about it. It's after midnight and you got this guy uninvited. She's not going to invite her former lover over at night with her son home. I can promise you that. I don't know her. I've never met her, but I can tell you that much. So he shows up and what do you think? What should she do? Let him start screaming and causing a ruckus or just say, okay, Kate, you can come in 10 minutes. We're going to talk.

I would have, I don't know what I would have done, but I understand, Mona Kay, why she let him in. So he wouldn't create a scene, wake up neighbors and wake up her son for Pete's sake, Mona. Right. I agree. I mean, she probably wanted to keep things calm, talk to him, just pacify him, you know, for a short time. And, and like you said, ask him to leave, repeatedly ask him to leave. But Mona Kay, she drew the line. He wanted to, and I'm putting perfume on the pig right here. He wanted to rekindle the relationship. In other words, have sex. Right.

That's what I think. Right. That is what I think. And I'm sure Matthew Mangino is going to tell me how wrong I am. But he's a man. He wants to rekindle their what? Their marriage? No.

Their sex affair. And she said no. And he stabbed her dead. Right. What do you think about that, Monica? Right. It was a rejection. You know, he couldn't take the rejection.

He was obsessed. He wasn't going to leave. You know, with her telling him. I'm glad you said that. Obsessed. To show up after midnight when a mother is home with her child, alone in the home, and he comes over uninvited and tries to restart their sex affair. I would call that obsessed. That's a very good word, Monica.

Well, I think he had a pattern. He stalked and women baristas at a nearby Starbucks near his home also. He frequented the place several times a week. He left messages in the tip jar. He proposed to a couple of the employees. I read that they filed police reports. They wanted to keep the guy away from Starbucks. Oh, this poor woman.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This poor woman, Stephanie Pagonis, joining me from Fox, she got entangled with a freak. And then she couldn't get rid of him. Everything you reported about her movements that evening, Stephanie Pagonis, absolutely correct. You're backed up totally by the NYPD chief of detectives James Essig listen to what he's got to say on Friday night April 15th Miss Gal attends a show at

Lincoln Center she takes the train back to her neighborhood in Forest Hills at 11 11.20 p.m., she stops in a local establishment for a short while before returning home. We believe she returns home at 12.20 a.m. You are hearing the Chief of Detectives, James Essig, take a listen to what he says next. On Friday night a.m., Mr. Bonella is a handyman who was employed by Mrs. Gall. They have been having an intimate affair for approximately two years. He is either let in voluntarily or he uses a key he has knowledge about hidden in the barbecue. A heated argument ensues between the two in the basement. A knife is brandished. A violent struggle ensues, resulting in our victim being stabbed ruthlessly and brutally in excess of 55 times, causing her demise. The chief of detectives, James Essie, goes on to state that the duffel bag was found in the home by the killer, and he dragged her body

down Metropolitan Avenue at Jackie Robinson Parkway. Question to you, Stephanie Pagonis, it's my understanding that there's a beautiful park forest near her home, and that he lived on the other side of it. Correct. So was this going toward his home where he just left the body? So it does appear that way. Yes, it appears that he would have walked the 0.7 miles from her Juneau Street home to that intersection, Metropolitan Avenue and Jackie Robinson Parkway. That would have been directly on the way to his own home if he had chosen to walk that night. Didn't he live in Richmond Hills? That is correct.

Okay, so if he were walking home, and I was hung up for the longest time because the killer did not dispose of her body in a vehicle and I repeatedly said what what did he do walk there yes that's exactly what he did to Dr. Tim Gallagher medical examiner for the entire state of Florida you can find him at pathcaremed.com lecturer University of Florida Medical School founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. All they talk about is death investigations for days on end. It's like a brain trust of medical examiners and investigators. Dr. Gallagher, thank you for being with us.

I want to talk to you about this frenzied attack. We're hearing 50, we're hearing 55. I think it's very difficult to tell. I learned that from the Jodi Arias case where she stabbed her lover, Travis Alexander, about 30 times and shot him in the head. The stab wounds were overlapping each other. And since human flesh obviously is movable and flexible, it's hard to tell really how many stab wounds there are. But we know of 55. What's curious to me is when you see him wheeling her body down the street, he looks perfectly calm. Well, true, Nancy. It's very difficult to get the exact amount of stab wounds in a body. But, you know, once you go past a certain number, you know, that exact

number becomes less and less relevant. You know, we can see that she's been stabbed multiple times. Generally, this is a person who has done it in a fit of rage. This is a person who's done it, who's of altered mental status, who's not, or we say non-compass mentis, who is not in their right mind. So these people generally have a tremendous amount of strength that they exert all at once during the assault to the point where they actually slice themselves.

They harm themselves with the knife, but it doesn't slow them down. They continue to stab. When you stab somebody with a knife, the blood and the bodily fluids get on the handle of the knife, and the person who's holding it loses grip when they stab somebody, and that knife actually slices their own hand, but it doesn't stop them. So they are filled with rage they feel no pain and they are expending all of this energy and then after the assault their energy is expended so they return to a calm state and then that's what you see uh his in his

public persona as he's walking down the street he can't be excited anymore. So you say the rage. What was your last sentence? He cannot be excited anymore. His adrenaline is spent. His rage is spent. So all he has to do now is the only thing that he has energy to do now is walk calmly. And that's what was observed after the attack. So he's exhausted after the frenzy attack. I've got to tell you something, doctor. I've been around many schizophrenics that were charged with crimes. Well, murders. They were all charged with murders. The ones that I dealt with.

And it's very scary. Victims have told me to be alone with them when they are in one of these rages and other rage attacks. It's almost as if the person, they're not legally insane, but they've gone wild. And you can't reason with them. You can't reason with them. You can't stop them. And I'm wondering if that is what this beautiful mom of two encountered when she refused to rekindle her relationship with the handyman. You mentioned that very often the attacker will get wounded. Isn't it true, Stephanie Pagonis, that this killer cut himself very seriously?

He first went to a city clinic like a doc in the box. Sorry about that phrase, Dr. Gallagher. You know, the old med first. Then they sent him on to Bellevue Hospital. He needed to go to the hospital where he was treated and released. That's correct. Police were able to confirm that he went to a local area hospital to have injuries to both his hands treated. And in later surveillance footage that police later released, you can see him walking down the street with at least one hand bandaged up completely.

So yes, he also incurred injuries amid all of this. This is Matt. You know, I think it's clear that he didn't go there with the intent to kill. The weapon that he used was a kitchen knife. They argued. They went into the basement probably involuntarily because he had taken a knife from the kitchen um and then he goes into this range so he has some diminished capacity

in this case bs i was just waiting for the bs to come. And there it is. Right. Because rage does not insanity make. Well, I can just gun you down when you get off of this program and go, oh, I was angry because you disagree with me. That's not a defense under the law. And let me remind you, Matthew Mangino, not that you need reminding. I mean, you're a veteran trial lawyer, former district attorney, Lawrence County, former parole board member, author of The Executioner's Toll. It goes on and on and on. Matthew Mangino, let's not mislead the listeners to think that premeditation under the law requires a long drawn-out scheme such as poisoning someone over a period of weeks and months or planning or lying in wait. Premeditation, as a matter of fact,

can be formed in the blink of an eye the time it takes to pick up a knife pull it back and stab that is long enough under the law to form premeditation or intent so here he stabbed her 55 times he had plenty of time to form premeditation there's no question uh you're right i mean he used a weapon on a vital part of her body, which is all you need to prove first degree murder. But we're not talking about insanity where he doesn't

know the difference between right and wrong, which could be a defense. But we're talking about diminished capacity. Is his responsibility... Oh, because he's PO? She won't have sex with him with her son right above them? That ain't going to work, me and Gina. You've got to try better than that.

He shows up after midnight. He wants to have sex with her, rekindle their relationship, if you can call it that. She's married with children. He's got children. What else is it? She says no, and he starts stabbing her. Wouldn't you agree, Dr. Gallagher, that there's a very strong possibility many of these stab wounds are post-mortem? She couldn't have lived through 55 stab wounds. She was dead,

and he kept stabbing her. Well, that's true, nancy and a couple of things that we do see is not all not all the stab wounds on some of these victims go entirely through their body these are wounds that are taunting so they're sometimes the the uh killer will taunt the victim with a couple of uh superficial stabs and then the stabs will get deeper and deeper and deeper you know until the injury becomes fatal what can you tell me, straight back out to Stephanie Pagonis, what can you tell me about the possibility or Sawyer Gale could have tipped off investigators as to her killer? She posted a note on her fridge in all caps, GET a new handyman. You know, police have been scarce in what they are releasing outside of press conferences.

But information like that, information like concerns about someone or 911 calls placed to the home are something they would have record of. And details like that will likely come out in future court hearings. Mr. Bonola is back in court on April 26th, or even when he ultimately goes to trial for this, if he does ultimately choose to plead not guilty. Dr. Gallagher, can you rephrase something? I want to make sure Matthew Mangino heard this, and then I'll ask Dr. Angie Arnold about it. I believe, of course, you're the MD, I'm just a JD, that there's no way she could have survived 55 stab wounds all to her torso, her face, her chest. So some of the stabbings were after she's dead, after she's down on the ground. Right.

I mean, that would most likely be the case. It's going to take a very long time to complete 55 stab wounds. And in that period of time, they would most likely have died from the wounds that were done earlier. So I would believe, yes, that a lot of the stab wounds could have been after she had died. And a medical examiner doing a complete autopsy would be able to identify which ones, which stab wounds she received when she was alive and which stab wounds she received after she had expired. Because the stab wounds post-mortem after death would not have bled. There would not be any hemorrhaging around them.

That is correct, right? The heart would stop beating. There would be no blood pressure to push the blood through the wound. So there would be no bleeding from that wound. Okay, Matthew Mangino you're talking about how he was in a rage and diminished capacity he's got her down on the ground after she refuses sex with him still stabbing this mom of two with one of her boys one floor up. Now what were you saying what could your possible defense be? Again, you know, I think

that further emphasizes the rage that he's out of his mind. The evil. Yeah, that he has this diminished capacity, this altered state of mind. He's just in a rage. He doesn't really know what he's doing. He's just acting out in this rage. And I think... Acting out. Gee, I think of the kindergartner when you say acting out, maybe throwing themselves on the ground and kicking and screaming. I think it was John David did that one time. I just looked at him and walked off. It worked. This is far from acting out. This is an evil, brutal, vicious homicide of a defenseless, unarmed woman. And now with her son to grow up knowing I was home and I didn't save my mother. It's my fault. What about that, Dr. Angie?

That poor child. I mean, he's going to have to be in therapy for the rest of his life. I can't even, you know, I'm sure everybody's asking, how didn't he hear this? Well, my kids have earbuds in all the time. I don't know about your kids. I could be standing in the kitchen talking to them and they don't hear me. Well, you're right. I was questioning what happened that the son didn't hear anything.

He's up on the second floor. She's in the basement and he's obviously and he's blaring some music playing a video game probably or sleep oh i just had another idea hold on i'm coming right back to you stephanie pagana's joining us from fox matthew mangino not in his right mind he then picked up her cell phone, put in her code, or held it up to her face, evil, to get in, and sent her husband a threatening text and made up some crazy story. Your wife put me in jail some years ago, and now I'm back. Don't call police. Your whole family's next.

He's crazy like a fox. This guy's not crazy or diminished capacity. He thought about staging the scene, and he did stage the scene, including that threatening text to the dad. Yeah, I think the word you use is crazy, and I think that feeds into this whole situation. I mean, that's not threatening. That's not the normal conduct of a person who's in a in a in the right frame of mind that he's in a complete panic now, which, you know, is a result of this uh rage that he just inflicted on uh yeah he's in a panic because he's trying to cover up a murder that he just did a horribly bloody murder i mean

stephanie begonas joining us from fox the police found damning evidence at the scene including a pair of his boots soaked in blood that's. Not only did they find these boots that were soaked in blood, like you said, but they also found a jacket that was soaked in blood. They found tissues, I believe, at a nearby park. And they found a trail of blood leading from the home to the scene where the body was discovered in Duffel Bag, more or less ditched along the sidewalk there. So he has quite a bit of evidence that he has left behind, whether knowingly or unknowingly. He left the knife, as you discussed, at the crime scene that matches the other knives used in the home home there and he ultimately confessed to many of these crimes

including leaving this text message that ended up being completely bogus you know it's interesting that you just said so many things stephanie get the knife out of the kitchen and then take it down to the basement, walking down with a knife in Think about that, Mona Kay. Those steps. If I was prosecuting this case, I would go down every step for the jury with him holding the knife. Every step leading him closer to murder, a vicious and brutal murder of a defenseless, unarmed woman. That was time to ponder and think about what he was about to do, Mona. Right. And we don't know how many times he had approached her before this night if he had been calling her following her if he had tried to um you know have sex with her you know before this night he maybe knew that there was a possibility

he was going to be rejected but he was going to try he was going to keep trying you know what i learned uh researching the case stephanie begonis is that he has an odd obsession with the Guns N' Roses guitarist Slash. Yes, and he also looks, you know, quite similar. Interestingly enough... You mean the hair? Yeah, he's got quite a distinct appearance. You know, even neighbors in the area said they knew him as being not only a night owl, but someone who always was either playing music, talking about music, or was carrying around his guitar,

whether it was around his back or in an instrument bag of some kind. So not only does the appearance seem quite similar, but he really had quite the interest in music, according to neighbors and people who lived or worked nearby. You know, it's another interesting fact to me about how the knife was recovered at the crime scene. But the fact that, does everybody remember, how could you ever forget Scott Peterson? Remember when he would go back over and over and over, back to San Francisco Bay, looking out over the water as if he expected to see Lacey's body or the body of their unborn son, Connor, pop up in the water. Maybe he was scouring the beach at a distance to see if their bodies had washed up on shore. But wouldn't you agree, Dr. Angela Arnold, that very often we see criminals returning to the scene over and over? I don't understand why. Well, I don't really

understand why either, Nancy, but there has to be a curiosity inside of them. And maybe they're perhaps they're reliving the event. Perhaps they're looking for signs of evidence that hasn't been found. And I truly agree with you about Scott Peterson probably going out there and seeing if Lacey's body was going to float up. And maybe, and you know, Nancy, maybe it also gives them some sort of, some sort of sense of something, having known that they've gotten rid of that person. And so they, they revisit it and relive it. You know what I'm wondering, Nancy? I'm wondering if this man had been, you know, she had been trying to get rid of him, right? And she had cut things off. And then I'm wondering if someone else had rejected him also.

Well, you heard earlier that he had been hitting on the baristas at the Starbucks that he went to. Exactly. And maybe he, you know, he entered her house and took all of this out on her. I imagine that will come out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Stephanie Pagonis, the police had been looking for him to talk to him. I don't know if they were tipped off by the note she left to herself, get a new handyman and all caps on our fridge. I don't know if that tipped them off or if they were looking for people that had a key or knew about the very extensive and sophisticated alarm system in the home. But they were looking for him. But the way that they spotted

him goes back to what I was saying about Scott Peterson. Yes, that is absolutely correct. Explain. So police were actually canvassing the area around the crime scene when they actually spotted him. He willingly went with them to be interviewed. interviewed and that's how things unfolded here where he began to incriminate himself and ultimately confessed to one or all of the crimes according to police and and so that's how all of this unfolded days after the murder the odd thing is that he the cops were out canvassing the neighborhood looking for more video surveillance.

In other words, people's home security systems, their ring doorbells or devices like ring doorbells, anything anyone would have had. I mean, you could get video of this nature even from a public bus when the doors opened. We saw that in the Connecticut missing mom of five, Jennifer Dulos. Police put together, based on ring doorbells, traffic light cams, home security, and even a bus. When the doors opened on the public bus, you see Dulos's car go by, the husband, Fotis Dulos. They put together his exact movements following and around the time of her murder. So here the cops are out trying to get more surveillance video of any nature that they can find in the neighborhood. And they look over near where her body was found in the suitcase. And lo and behold, there he is. There's David Bonilla standing there back at the scene where he left her body.

What about it, Mangino? Well, I think that, you know, the police did a nice job in investigating this. Obviously, we didn't know in terms of the public what they were doing, but they had a bead on Benalo right from the start. They went and retrieved garbage that he had left on the curb, which resulted in finding the bloody boots. They were able to retrieve his jacket and bandages that he used to treat his own wounds. So the police did a very good job in a very short period of time. And that's why we have a confession and an arrest. Okay, see, I like the way you did that. You completely skirted my question.

And my question was about him returning back to the scene, which I find to be very, very damning. Take a listen to our cut 20. Again, this is the chief of detectives, James Essig. Last night,

while detectives were canvassing for video, they observed a male who was wanted for questioning in a horrendous homicide. He voluntarily came back to the 112 precinct and made incriminating statements. 44 years old, residing at 10418 114th Street in Queens, New York, is being charged with murder in the second degree, criminal tampering in the first degree, and criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree, in relation to the death of Osolia Gow, female, 51 years old. You know, to you, Stephanie Begonus, very often when you're dealing with New York and some other jurisdictions, law, it's said, well, why not murder in the first degree?

Murder in the second, in New York, is very similar to other jurisdictions, murder in the first, first degree murder. In New York, murder one can refer to murdering, for instance, a cop, a peace officer, a government worker. It could be someone that is incarcerated already and then they murder the warden. So it really focuses a good bit, murder one in New York, on who the victim is. But the penalty for murder one and murder two in New York is the same, about 25 to life, right? That's correct. He faces 25 to life. It's convicted on the highest charge. But on top of that, he has those two other charges, criminal possession of a weapon and tampering with physical evidence. So he likely faces more time than that if convicted on those other charges on top of the murder in the second degree. Interesting. I know what tampering

with evidence would be moving the body, getting rid of evidence, trying to hide the murder weapon, but what about criminal possession of a weapon? Does that mean he had a weapon that he used for a crime? Or is there some reason it was a crime for him to even have a weapon to commit a crime in this case. So like you said, he went into the kitchen. Police believe he used the knife from the kitchen and he used that knife in the commission of this murder of Ursula Gall. Dr. Angie Arnold, I just hate that not only are the boys losing their mother, for the rest of their life, they're going to have their mother's reputation dragged through the mud because her affair with her killer is going to be forever linked to her name. I mean, you're not going to be able to pull her name up on Google without that popping up. And it seems to obscure all that she did, carrying them, giving birth, going through labor, taking care of them, getting them to school, mentoring them.

All the love she poured into her boys, their whole lives. That seems to be overshadowed by this one thing. Well, it's a shame, Nancy, because it is overshadowed by this. And I have to wonder if the children felt some sort of sense of abandonment of her, by her, when this affair was going on. You can't be completely, completely focused on your family if you're having an affair with someone. We've also, we've also determined that the family was apparently in some sort of family therapy because they were all seeing the same doctor. So you have to wonder if there were already troubles anyway. I just hate it for the boys. I hate it for the husband. Well, I hate the whole

thing for them, Nancy, because what if they had a sense that their mother was having an affair, and now she's been murdered? And now they have to go through all of the steps. They're going to be angry with her. They're going to be so angry with her. They're going to be so many. They're going to be sad that she's gone. There are very specific steps that they will go through.

I mean, the little boy is just 13. My twins are 14. I can't imagine, God forbid, leaving them at this young age. Well, and that being said, it's that 13-year-old brain that lost his mother. And that's what a therapist will always have to work with. It's a very underdeveloped brain that has to deal with this. He's been completely abandoned by his mother now, and she was murdered. The killer is set to be back in court, we believe, around April 26.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crum, Story Signing Off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.