Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mom Shoots 'Mouthy' Children, Claims She Saved Them

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

On January 27, 2011, Julie Schenecker did the unthinkable: Armed with a .38 revolver she had purchased five days before, the former Russian linguist fatally shot both of her teenage children in the head. Beau Schenecker, 13, was found dead in a car parked in the garage of the Scheneker’s upscale Tampa home; 16-year-old Calyx had been placed in her bed after was killed. Julie Schenecker reportedly lifted her daughter’s mouth in the shape of a smile in a bizarre staging of the body.Calyx had been doing her homework on the computer in another room when Julie Schenecker came up behind her and shot her in the head, then in the face. Julie had already killed Beau, reportedly shooting him in the head as they were in the car, headed to soccer practice. Julie’s husband Parker Schenecker, at the time an army colonel, was stationed in Qatar when his children were killed.In an interview with police just after the double homicide, Julie Schenecker admitted to killing both of her children, because they were “mouthy.” She later changed her story, and said in a jailhouse interview with ABC News that she “saved them” — Beau from alleged sexual abuse, and Calyx from mental illness.Read the full story on CrimeOnlineJoining Nancy Grace today: Ashley Willcott - Judge and trial attorney, anchor, www.ashleywillcott.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire'  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network  Sarina Fazan - Four-time Emmy award-winning TV Anchor & Reporter (interviewed Julie Schenecker in 2015 for ABC), Sarina Fazan Media, www.sarinafazan.media, Podcast: "On The Record with Sarina Fazan" @sarinafazannews, YouTube: Sarina Fazan TV Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. You know, some people go their whole life trying to have children. They'll pay thousands and thousands of dollars for fertility treatments to give birth. They will fly around the earth to try to adopt a baby. So it's really hard for most people to get their heads wrapped around a killer mom. I'm talking about none other than Julie Schoenecker. Listen. Police say about 7 o'clock Thursday night, Schoenecker armed herself with a.38 caliber pistol she had just purchased over the weekend. They say she shot her son twice in the head in the family's garage, then went upstairs and shot her daughter in the back of the head

while she was doing her homework. She did tell us that they talked back, that they were mouthy, and that she was tired of it. Detectives say Schoenecker's mother contacted them from Texas Friday morning after receiving a disturbing email from her daughter and being unable to reach her. When they arrived at the house, they found her on a back patio covered in blood. They also found a note describing how she planned to kill her children and then herself. But somehow she miraculously lived while her two children, Bo and Kellex, died at her hands. Before we go any further, I want you to hear Julie Schoenecker speaking in her own words.

Jackie, let's play the cut in its entirety, cut 14. Listen to Julie Schoenecker speaking. What was all he said? He's a good boy. I bet he was. You hated shooting him? Why is it better? You said, but it's better. How are you going to do that? carbon monoxide. That's what I was

going to do. How were you going to do that? Start the car. How would you make them sit there, though? We don't sit there. They go right in the house. Oh, so you leave the car running while they're in the house. So, her original plan was to murder

both of her children by carbon monoxide. So her original plan was to murder both of her children by carbon monoxide, but her problem was when she would bring them home from school, they'd jump out of the car and go in. So she couldn't figure out, wow, how can I kill them with carbon monoxide? I'll just shoot them instead. We're talking about a killer mom, Julie Shinaker.

She is no idiot. She was with the military as a linguist and advanced way up high in the military ranks, married to a military guy who also had climbed the ranks, and he was away from home a lot. And reports are she resented that deeply, that she had given up so much to raise these two children and perceived that he had not. Well, now they're both dead. And when you hear the way they were shot dead, it's a story you'll never forget. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of it all first of all judge trial lawyer anchor court tv ashley wilcott at ashleywilcott.com dr bethany marshall psychoanalyst to the stars joining us from la she's also the star of a new netflix series bling empire and you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Renowned death investigator, Joe Scott Morgan,

professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of Poisonous Liaisons program on the True Crime Network. But first, to a special guest joining us, Serena Fazan. Serena Fazan is a four-time Emmy award-winning TV anchor and reporter and one of those Emmys was for getting the interview with Julie Shinaker, Murder Mom, and Serena tells me that interview changed her life. You can find her at serenafazon.media and she's got a podcast on the record with Serena Fazon. Wow. Do you ever sleep woman? Let's just start. No, I don't Nancy. Oh my

God. Let's just start with what happened here. I just have one question. I'm very curious about Serena Fasan. When you spent all that time with killer mom, Julie Schenker, what was her demeanor? Because she apparently has no regrets over what she did. Well, you know, when I first met her, Nancy, in that prison, I, she seemed to be, she seemed to have regrets. It was when the cameras were turned off that she changed her demeanor. But as you started the show talking about how we would do anything, so many people would do anything to have children. I was obsessed with the case, for lack of a better term, for many, many reasons. But one of those reasons is because I had, my daughter's 13 now, but she was three at the time. And I really wanted another child.

So I just couldn't imagine how someone could kill their two children or how anybody could do anything like that. So I wrote to her in prison every month for four years, just wanting, you know, to hear what she had to say. The prosecutors initially, she pled not guilty, you know, and then tried to go by reason of insanity. It was very, very, it was, I will never forget those hours that I spent with her. What was her demeanor? Was she lucid? She was lucid.

She was lucid. She seemed to be, her eyes were all over the place, though, you know, seemed not to really connect. Answering these questions. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Hold on right there. Serena Vazon joining me, Emmy Award winning anchor and reporter. I put, I've seen plenty of defendants on the stand. I didn't put them up.

They went up on their own. And they looked everywhere but at me asking them questions too, which of course I loved because the jury was watching at the same time. I mean, when you don't want to answer a question, you look down, up, around. It's hard for me to look somebody in the eye and outright lie. And that's a real tell. That's a nonverbal communication right there when the person looks away when you ask them a question.

Boy, when I ask the twins a question, if they look away, I'm on it right then. But sadly, they know my game. So they know how to trick me. Guys, we are talking about this woman, a murder mom. There's no doubt about it. She shot both of her children. And these children, oh, my stars. Let me look up all their accomplishments for Pete's sake.

Let's see. The teen girl, Kellick Shinaker, was an honor student. She had record time at high school track. She was outstanding as far as grades go. Same thing, a highly popular sophomore. She never missed school. The only day that she missed school was the day her mother shot her dead. Her little brother, Bo, was a goalie playing middle school soccer. That's the spot my son plays. That's not easy. I don't get it, but you know what? Let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Take a listen. This is killer mom, Julie Shinaker. What made you decide to do it this way? First bow.

I mean, were you bringing him back from soccer practice and he pissed you off? Is that what happened? Yeah, he pissed me off. Right. No? You turned around and came back? Now, when exactly did you shoot Bo? Were you in the garage already?

Right, but were you in your garage or were you driving? I was driving. And he said, put that away or I'll hit you. So then you shot him? Yeah. Where did you shoot him first? Left side of the head. Do you remember which side?

No. Left side? And then what? And then what? I didn't do anything. Okay. I left him alone. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about a murder mom and hearing her describe what she did to her son, Bo, a little boy, a middle schooler.

It's so upsetting to me because all throughout what she was saying, how many times have I picked the twins up from school? How many times have I picked up John David from soccer? He'd sit beside me in the car. I mean, it was the highlight of my day. Before I go to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us, Joe Scott Morgan, and Ashley Wilcott, I want you to take a listen to more of murder mom, Julie Schoenecker. to listen to more of Murder Mom, Julie Shinaker. And then what happened after that? He was sitting there with his baseball on. Okay. And then you went upstairs and that's when you confronted Kalix?

She stares straight ahead. She didn't know you were there? Mm-mm. But I shot her in the back of the head and in the mouth. I shot her in the back of the head and in the mouth. Listen to this.

When you shot her in the head, did she fall forward or anything? She fell sideways. Fell sideways. And then how did you shoot her in the mouth? Where was she laying? She was in the... Still in the chair?

Yeah, still in the chair. I had to reach around. Did you stick it right inside her mouth? No, I didn't do the inside. It went... No. Just from the outside shot? Yeah.

Jackie, I want to hear the rest of what she said about her daughter, Kaelix, please. She said, when I get out of here, I'm never going to come back and see you. I came up behind her. What was she doing? Um, homework. She was at homework on the computer? Yeah. You came up behind her with what?

With a.38. Okay. And what happened? I shot her in the back of the head. Because she was running her mouth at you? Yeah. And then I shot her, I think, in the mouth. Why did you want to shoot her in the mouth?

Because it angers me so much. Her mouth angers you? Yeah. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm having the same reaction right now as I would have so often in court when I would have to present evidence that was just unspeakable. And it leaves me almost numb with waves of nausea listening to her talking about shooting her girl in the mouth. And I remember moments like that in court when then I'd have to continue questioning.

And I'd look over at the jury and they would be just reeling, just numb with what they had just heard. But our job is to analyze the facts and evidence and try to make sense of it. Did you hear her say she shot her daughter in the mouth? She was already dead. Yeah. Because she first shot her in the back in the mouth. She was already dead. Yeah. Because she first shot her in the back of the head. But then she went up and shot Kellex again in the mouth. I heard it, Nancy.

Nancy, I remember covering this case 10 years ago with you. Do you remember? I remember like yesterday. The images were so profound. Her husband was away on tour. She was so angry at her husband for not being home to take care of the kids. She sounded, the way she was sitting on the back porch covered in blood and during the interviews, she sounded like she was trying to act crazy or drugged,

but she's not crazy at all. She's quite sane. Nancy, her profile reminds me of a particular type of patient who comes into my office, who is very shifty, eyes all over the place, like our Emmy Award winning producer was talking about who is only attached to one person on the face of the planet and that is themselves they present in a peculiar kind of way as if the only thing that excites or interests them is their own internal world their own imagination their own thoughts about things it's as if they're solipsistic, meaning that the outside world is completely cut off and their own internal imagination and fantasies are enlivened.

It's like they're, it's like the, it's like Horton, here's a who of the Dr. Seuss book, but the who is their own internal world. They go further and further inside of their own thoughts. Well, I appreciate all that about Horton Hears a Who and his own private world and her own private world. But what matters to me, maybe I'm a little bit more of a pragmatist, is was she insane at the time of the act? And clearly, the answer to that is no.

I interviewed the guy who sold her the gun. Let's pull that up, Jackie. The guy who sold her the gun. And he told me that she was in no way unsteady, that she was completely lucid, that she was sane. And while I've got you, Serena Fazan, isn't it true that she bought the gun just shortly before the two murders? Yes. And Nancy, she told me when I asked her that question in prison, I asked her if she had any regrets for killing her children. And she said, no.

She said that she was trying to save them. Those were her words. She said to me, I just pulled up some of my interviews. And the full interviews you can still watch online, but she said, I know you hate me. Everyone here hates me, but it's okay because Kalix and Bo love me. I told them that I love them every day. Okay. Take a listen to cut our cut 20. This is Gerald Tanzo, owner of Lock and Load Gun Store, where Shinaker bought the murder weapon. He's talking about the day she bought the gun. This is

what he tells me. Listen. So when you sold Julie Shinaker the murder weapon, did you have any reason to believe she had a mental illness, that she was insane, that she was drunk or high? Any reason you felt you should not sell her a gun? Not at all. Not at all. In fact, did you find it unusual for a woman to be buying a gun? We sell guns to women every day. And again, what kind of gun did you say she bought? It was a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 38.

And did she buy ammunition? She bought ammunition, too. Correct. When she left, what was her demeanor? She was very nice, very good, very personable, smiling, happy. In fact, didn't she shake your hand when she left? That was on the day of the pickup, yeah. That was on the 27th. Shook my hand, said goodbye, and everything was fine.

Straight back out to Serena Vazon joining us. Serena, how close in time did she get the gun, actually physically get the gun, to when she shot her children dead? I believe it was just like three days before, perhaps something like that. And I remember about three days or less than a week before, and she claimed that the intention was for her just to use the gun on herself. That's what she first told the investigators, that that was her intention. But then she changed her mind.

And, you know, when you were talking about the kids being shot, one of the stories that continues, I mean, I just cannot picture this, all of this, as most of it's apparent. Little Bo was actually in the car tying his shoe, right? He looked up at his mom and said, mom, what's wrong? And that's when she shot him. That came to me from the investigators on the case. Okay. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, there's no good way to put this.

Murder moms. Women that turn their frustration and their rage under those that they are entrusted with to protect their own children. We're learning more about Julie Schoenecker's rage at her husband's career surpassing her own, her anger that he had to fly out of town for work. She lived in a mansion, as I recall, with a pool out back. I mean, she had it all. This is big, huge thing that most people only ever dream of. I mean, when you talk about the one percenters, that would be them. But she was still angry. Take a listen to our cut 27. This yellow thing around her came up and went through the ceiling and then I picked her up and put her in bed and covered her up and I had her up and I hugged her and she didn't hug me back and I laid her down and I kissed her goodnight and I covered her up and then I realized I

forgot to cover up Bo and it was January so I went and got a blanket and I covered him up and kissed him goodnight. And I didn't see any blood at all. At all. But three and a half years later, I saw blood in the pictures. But that day, you don't remember? No. No blood. What?

Save it, lady. You murdered your children. All this covering them with a blanket and kissing them and hugging them. I don't care. She murdered them. She planned to murder them. She detailed it in writing. Out of anger, her husband left her to raise them when he had to go away on trips.

And then she starts this with, quote, This yellow thing around her came out of her head and went through the ceiling. To you, Serena Fasana, is she trying to say that was her daughter's soul? Yes. She told me that that was her daughter's soul, her son's soul,

and that they were going up to heaven. And that's why she wanted the death penalty. She wanted the death penalty initially because she wanted to join her children. I thought there was a trial. There was, but that's what she wanted. So she claimed at the very, very beginning, she said that she wanted, she wished, she wished she got the death penalty. Well, why didn't she just plead guilty? That's the question, Nancy, and that's why you're so great

at what you do. I'll tell you why. Because she didn't want the death penalty, and she didn't want to go to jail. That's why you have a trial, because you don't want to go to jail, and the prosecutor does want you to go to jail. Guys, I mean, this is so bass-acquers. Everything this woman says is a

calculated lie. Well, you know what? Don't take my word for it. Listen to our Cut 17, Julie Shinneker, Murder Mom. When you shot her in the head, did she fall forward or anything? She fell sideways. Fell sideways. And then how did you shoot her in the mouth?

Where was she laying? She was in a... Still in a chair? Yeah, still in a chair. I was she laying? She was in the... Still in the chair? Yeah, still in the chair. I had to reach around. Did you stick it right inside her mouth? No, I didn't do the inside. No. Just from the outside shot?

Yeah. She kept referring to her daughter's mouth as, quote, her sassy mouth. Okay, to you, Ashley Wilcott, judge as, quote, her sassy mouth. OK, to you, Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV. Weigh in. Oh, my gosh, Nancy. You know, I've been here biting my tongue.

I have so much to say. First of all, here she's trying in this interview to act like, oh, it was she was saving them and she saw their souls go up. Let's talk about premeditation. She had written a note about thinking about killing them by gas from a car exhaust. Then she chose to go buy a gun calmly, sanely, rationally, according to the person that sold it to her. She then claims they were mouthy, right? Okay, so he's sitting in the back of the car, tying a shoe, doing nothing, innocently sitting there and she executes him. Then she goes inside and executes her daughter who was doing homework on a computer.

So none of this makes sense. All of this is contrived by her to try to cover up the fact that she murdered her children in cold blood. There's no excuse. There's no justification. It doesn't matter if she's angry at her husband. It doesn't matter. There's no explaining this other than she evilly murdered her children. You were hearing earlier Julie Schoenecker as she was speaking to police. Later, you were hearing her speaking to our friend Serena Fazan. Serena, when she would say these things to you, what was her demeanor? She was, you know, she was giving off that demeanor as feel sorry for me. You know, she actually told me, she told me that Beau was the victim of sexual abuse and he was molested at the age of six, but she wouldn't reveal by who. Then she said that she was raped as sexually assaulted, I'm sorry, I hate that other word at 17 and she was trying to protect her children

from a similar fake so I kept on pushing her to say who are you protecting them from who yeah I mean quite frankly I thought they need to be protected from her and that clearly ended up being the case but that's what she told me in that interview. So she changed her story. Yes, she changed her story because the suggestion they were ever molested has never been brought up until a behind jailhouse walls interview that you managed to obtain. And so if you hear her words that we played earlier when she was speaking to police, she says, Bo, her little boy was, quote, sitting there with his face blown out. So that was her idea of protecting him. Guys, please take a listen to our friend from HLN, Jean Kassar, speaking to me. Police are alleging and prosecutors that when she was driving her little 13-year-old son to soccer practice, she shot him in the head twice.

He was dead. She went back to the home, drove the car in the garage. He stayed dead in the car, in the garage. Then she went to the second floor of their home where her 16-year-old daughter was on the computer doing homework, shot her twice in the head, dead. She was found the next morning in her bathrobe and slippers out and back with blood all over her. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, do you see the comparison that she shot both of her children in the head and she shot both of them twice. Yeah, I do. And there's another piece here too, Nancy, that I've seen before. And when we think about this beautiful girl just doing her homework, I find it,

it's the fact that she went back and shot her in the mouth says a lot. I've worked many cases involving individuals who, serial perpetrators in particular, that will mutilate individuals, sadists, in fact, who will carve up the mouth, that will do horrible things to the mouth of individuals. And I'm not going to go into all of the details, but it speaks a lot when you're doing a profile on an individual like this, you can learn about where they're inflicting these injuries. The daughter in particular is from just a straight up clinical standpoint is kind of interesting because of what she did. She's talking about this child about this child being mouthy, and there's like this attempt to blow the mouth out. It's almost symbolic, and it's ultimately horrific.

You guys, if folks will just go and visit Crime Online and search her name, you guys have a fantastic article about this case. And you can actually see the crime scene images. And it really puts you in that place where this little girl is at her desk, Nancy. You can see the computer there. You can see the bloodstains that are on the floor. And just know that this girl didn't rise to her feet. There was no engagement as far as an argument or a fight.

She shot this poor child where she sat. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, Julie Shinaker, the ultimate murder mom. First of all, take a listen to Ed Lawrence at ABC Action News, our Cut 13. The diary talks in specifics about the two kids, 13-year-old Bo and 16-year-old Calix. She called me an evil soul. In parentheses, the evil starts Thursday. The technician went on to read another page labeled Thursday, the day of the murders. The passage started talking about how she shot Bo first in the car

on the way to practice, and she was surprised he had fight. He was yelling at me. First shot hit the windshield. Second shot was the side of the head. Next shot was to the mouth, his mouthy mouth. The diary talks about how both kids would talk back to Schoenecker and not treat her with respect, then describes the murder of her daughter. Came home, dash, Calix was on the upstairs computer.

She said, in quotations, what are you doing? Quotations, just see what you're doing. Walked up without her reacting and shot her in the right temple. Then shot her in the mouth. In parentheses, her sassy little mouth. And then we hear from her own mouth. Listen to Carson Chambers at ABC Action News. This is our Cut 11.

We were told by a medical examiner today that Bo and Calix were shot at such close range that they actually had burn marks on their skin. Her defense attorneys claim that she was insane at the time of the slayings. She was diagnosed bipolar with psychotic features and that her chronic mental illness stole everything from her including her two children the state says schoenecker actually planned that saturday massacre with a 38 revolver and hollow point bullets and then wrote about the slayings in a diary i offed a bow on the way to practice he saw the gun and told me to put it back in the purse. He had a healthy fright. I accidentally shot the window. I shot him one extra through, one extra shot through the side of the head. Then when we got home, a shot to his mouth

because he became so mouthy, just like Kalix. And the state says that she also wrote in that diary that she would have killed her husband, Colonel Parker Schoenecker, had he been in the house at the time. Of course, he was on assignment in Afghanistan. Did you hear that, Serena Fazon? How could she defend shooting them both in the head and then both of them in their mouth in her diary, which is what I'm focusing on right now. She refers to them and their mouthy mouth.

In other words, they talk back to her. It was crazy. And, you know, she told me, though, when she was sitting with me, that she wishes that her husband, Colonel Parker Schoenecker, would have institutionalized her when she asked him to do so in the past. Now, the question, of course, is we don't believe she asked him to do that she claimed that her pride or their pride because they lived they did live nancy in that gorgeous home that it kept them from addressing her mental illness or her mental health um and they don't want anybody to know okay wait a minute let me understand this so she's claiming she had a mental illness and she was sane enough to know she had a mental illness and to ask to go

the doctor but they didn't she she did not take herself to a therapist a shrink a psychologist a psychoanalyst a psychiatrist because what she didn't want anybody to find out. So she had a secret mental illness. Is that what you're telling me? Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. That she said to me, she said to me, it was her pride that prevented her. And also she blamed her husband. Of course she did because he's in Afghanistan. Right. Okay. Parker both did not want to address her mental illness because they were embarrassed by what their neighbors would think. Guys, if on mental illness, take a listen to our cut 12 Edward Lawrence, ABC action. The crime scene technician read her own words out loud for the jury. I was planning on a Saturday massacre,

but had to wait on the background and investigate for three days. This comes from a spiral notebook written by Schoenecker's hand. It offers direction to her husband. Prosecutors say it shows a calculating murderer waiting and plotting her attack. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall,

we need a shrink, pronto. Well, she reminds me of so many murderers who are actually very, the clinical term is histrionic, but I call it drama queen. You know, the shooting them in the mouth and the mouthy mouth and all of that. She's being very dramatic. This idea that she is saving them because they were molested or from future molestation, that's what Andrea Yates did. Remember that she felt that she had this delusion that if she didn't drown the kids, that they would

go to hell. So she was saving them from hell by killing or drowning them. That was Andrea Yates. And Julie Schoenecker is saving them because they've been molested and from from what she's saving them from it's hard to say. I think this idea of mental illness is what we call in the forensic community malingering after the fact. Malingering is a fancy term for making up some kind of an illness so now she's going to make up that she had a psychiatric illness. The motivation for killing the kids is probably quite shallow. She just didn't want them around. But you know, most parents who kill their kids do it to get back at the other parent, at the other parent, right? So she's angry at her husband. He's on a tour of duty. She's tired of taking care of the kids.

She's probably harboring very angry thoughts at him. She strikes out at the kids. What is the worst thing you can do to a parent? Harm their kids. So this is really not only an act towards the kids. This is an act of violence and rage towards her husband as well. And I was saying about her being preoccupied with her own internal world, she's only tethered to one person and that's herself. She's not tethered to external reality,

the fact that she's going to go to prison or what the rest of her life is going to be like. She's just caught up in that immediate moment of rage. To Serena Fazan, tell me about her, Julie Shinaker, and her husband's background and how educated. Oh, extremely educated. I believe they met in Germany and they were looked at as the power couple. You know, both of them very put together, very well respected. Just, again, like a power couple. And she was a linguist, as we talked about at the beginning of the show, extremely intelligent, extremely intelligent. After my interview with her, I also am convinced she is a master manipulator as well. Definitely a master

manipulator. I mean, she told, the lead prosecutor in the case is a guy by the name of Jay Pruner. He's still with the state attorney's office. She actually told me at the time that she commended him for convincing the jury that she was not insane and referenced previous moments in her life when she snapped, you know, saying, so she was very, you know, she's saying she's not insane. And then she's saying that she was saying, you know, her story was all over the place. There was an incident. And I know, I don't know if people have talked about it, but I don't know when it happened. It happened maybe a year, maybe several months prior to this, but she actually headbutted an Army commander's wife at a function. I didn't know that. Yeah, she headbutted.

It was during a Christmas party. And, you know, Parker Schoenecker had said that those were the moments that he knew that his wife was going out of control. Out of control and insane, two different things. Headbutting another woman at a Christmas party. Okay, I'd say that's not good. Insane? No. You know, it's interesting. This is just evil.

To you, Ashley Wilcott, on that evening, January 27, Shinneker sends an email to her then-husband, Parker. It says, quote, get home soon. We're waiting for you. But as a matter of fact, she had just murdered the children. They were dead, lying there. And she says, hurry home. I can't even begin to fathom the depths of her evilness. I'm not going to say I believe that it's anything other than that.

I don't believe it's mental health. I believe that whether she snapped, so to speak, or she'd been planning it, which she had been. Wait a minute. Ashley Wilcott, you're a judge and a trial lawyer, right? Yes. And did you actually just use the defense snapped? Because that's the name of a program that's not real that's not a defense oh i just got mad and snapped bam that's not a

defense that's called revenge right it's definitely not a defense but you know she's trying to paint it as oh i had to give up my career i'm'm angry with my husband. Cry me a river. To then go the extra step. And we've already heard she's very, very smart. So she's very revengeful, manipulative to know they're dead and send him that type of message. I wonder what he thought when he read it. I wonder if he read it and thought, does this mean what is another thing i find really interesting ashley is her whole story was i'm gonna kill the children and kill myself but the reality is she killed murdered the children and then she just went out on her veranda and fell asleep okay so also i'd like to point out that in court, she acted like she was drugged up.

But then she spotted somebody out in the gallery in the courtroom and smiled and winked. She winked at somebody on trial for the murder of her two children. She's all smiley and happy. And then the husband walks in and she immediately turns to a scowl, angry. You know what? She is no more crazy than my cat cinnamon she is not crazy she's evil that's what she is and that's why she's a murder mom nancy gray's crime story signing off goodbye friend this is an iheart podcast