Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'MOM, WHY DID YOU KILL MY LITTLE BROTHER AND SISTER?' Cult Mom Lori Vallow CONFRONTED BY SON

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

Colby Ryan took the stand to testify against his mother, Lori Vallow. The court also heard a phone call between the son and mother, recorded from behind bars. In the call, you can hear Ryan ask Vallow point blank about the murders, but Vallow repeatedly responds, "You weren't there."  Nate Eaton with East Idaho News reports that Ryan avoided eye contact with his mother even as she stared at him throughout his testimony. Vallow reported mouthed, "Oh my baby," when Ryan entered the courtroom. Ryan reveals several new details, such as receiving texts from his "sister" sent after the time police believe Tylee died.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Tara Malek - Bosie, ID, Attorney and Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek Robin Dreeke - Behavior Expert & Former FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: "Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;" Twitter: @rdreeke  Caryn Stark- Psychologist- Trauma and Crime Expert; Twitter: @carnpsych  Dr. Jan Gorniak - Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV); Board Certified Forensic Pathologist  Emily Ashcraft- Reporter for KSL.com in Utah; Twitter: @emilyjaneen3  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A torpedo into the defense of cult mom Lori Vallow. Lori Vallow now on trial for multiple murders and conspiracy to commit murder. Specifically, the murders of her two children, seven-year-old JJ and teen girl Tali. But there's more. There's husband Charles Vallow. There is the wife, Tammy Day Daybell who died in her sleep so cult mom Lori Vallow could then steal her husband and marry him at a beachside Hawaii wedding. But the torpedo

I'm talking about is none other than the one she gave birth to. That's right, her own son, Colby, delivering damning evidence against his own mother. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Not only did his testimony, his tearful testimony against his own mother, you could tell each word was being pulled out with the pliers. Who wants to hurt their own mother? Take a listen to this. Wow. Wow. That's her reaction? Maybe you should understand. I didn't necessarily think that way. You didn't, you understand. Wow.

That's her reaction when her son Colby says, you murdered my brother and sister. And she's like, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. You know, that's a real backhand way of not giving an apology. When somebody says, you did so and so, and you go, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. In case you're wondering where that call originated, that is a jailhouse call from, between cult mom Lori Vallow's son, Colby Ryan, and cult mom Lori Vallow. All of those calls are recorded. You know, I've got an all-star panel to make sense of what we're hearing right now

and what is literally pouring from the witness stand against cult mom Lori Vallow in the state's case. But first to Karen Stark, a renowned psychologist, joining us from Manhattan. You can find her at KarenStark.com. Karen with a C. Karen, what is that? I'm sure you have a clinical word for it. When you say, Nancy, you crashed my car and I'm really angry about it. And I say, well, Karen Stark, I'm sorry you feel that way.

It's taking no responsibility at all. It's a great deflection, Nancy. It's a great way to not say that you've done anything wrong, but it's like a semi-apology because I'm sorry is the thing that you're looking for, but I'm not sorry that I killed them. I'm sorry that that's how you feel. It's kind of like putting the blame on the other person. I'm sorry you feel that way. But her voice also, if you listen to the way that she sounds, she's very flat. It's not like, how can you accuse me of such a thing? She's just like, gee, I'm sorry that you feel that way.

This is her son. You know what, Karen Stark? Let me give you a good example. Yesterday, on the way to church, we got it in our heads. We were going to the early service. I don't know what possessed us to think we could actually get there on time anyway. So, of course, I get in the car, and I have one purple tennis shoe and one white tennis shoe. So I hold them up, and I go, go back, go back.

And my husband said, don't yell. For the next 20 minutes, I talked about that I didn't yell, that I was wrongly accused of raising my voice. And just to make it worse, this is all the way to church. So where you're supposed to learn to be a better person. I was incensed. And then I had to pull the twins and basically force them to say, I didn't yell that it was all in David's imagination. Long story short, I was more worried about that and the purple shoe and the white shoe than she is about two dead children. And that's exactly what we're talking about, that she has an aspect that's flat, the way that she's coming across like a zombie

the very thing that she's accusing everybody else of like oh gee i'm sorry but i'm sorry you feel that way okay joining me also in addition to karen stark psychologist is robin dreek behavior expert former fbi special agent chief of of FBI counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. My goodness. Author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction. Okay, you got to shorten that title. Number one, Robert. No kidding.

I think I'm projecting here because it makes me so angry when I go, you did so-and-so. And the person says, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. And, you know, Nancy, building upon what Karen was saying, it looks like her entire lack of effect with anything is she feels completely safe in her entire environment. You know, she has surrounded herself by a lot of like thinkers. And so when you are a fish in a pond, you don't even know there's a universe outside that pond that's questioning your every move. And so you feel very safe in that pond. And it's probably also why she's taking so many notes in the courtroom.

So she's a practiced liar that has been doing this her entire life. I think she feels extremely safe. Plus, you throw that lack of empathy in there and you're seeing a recipe for exactly that same behavior. I like everything you and Karen Stark just said. Let's bring in Tara Malik. Tara Malik, Boise, Idaho attorney, co-founder of Smith & Malik,

former state and federal prosecutor. Tara, thank you for being with us. Tara, let's now translate what we're hearing into criminal behavior. And something that Robin Drake said about she's a fish in a small pond and everybody swimming around her is supporting her and agreeing with her and propping her up to be some, and these are their words, not mine, goddess to lead the 140,000 selected going to heaven with Christ. But she never, as so many criminals are like-minded, she never thinks, wow, this is murder.

I could get the death penalty for this. That never dawns on her. No, it definitely doesn't seem to. I mean, she seems really confident in these lies that she's telling. And, you know, that call and her affect or her lack of affect in that call with her son is really telling. I mean, she just is so, I think safe is a great word to use. She feels so safe and, you know, throws it back on her son. I'm sorry that you feel like that. You know, I'm sorry you feel that way.

As a, you know, as a prosecutor, if you're putting on evidence like that, it certainly doesn't, it is not going to play well with that jury. They're not going to look at that flat ass act and go, hmm, sounds like someone who's innocent. To the contrary, they're going to go, that's a very strange and out of the norm way to react when someone accuses you, your own son, of murdering your other kids. Like this son of hers, Colby, we always hear about JJ and Tylee. We don't hear a lot about Colby. Like he hasn't been through enough. He has lost his father. Remember his father was Joseph Ryan, who by the time Ryan's body was found, he was so decomposed to really get a good COD cause of death. But with cult mom lurking around, I wouldn't put that past her either. Would you Jackie? I mean, no way way so his father's dead his mother his bio mom is in jail and now his two siblings are dead murdered JJ entirely now we're

talking about her flat affect and a lot of people believe it or not did anybody ever watch Sopranos they know they're being tapped, but they keep talking, right? Okay. Everybody in the jail knows the calls are being recorded, but they may think rightly that the prosecutor may not do his or her homework and listen to those calls. Wrong. Listen to this. I'm brave. I trust you. I gave you every chance I could to pass my own limitations as a human being. I pushed past all of everything to try to get to you to help my own mother. You lied to me,

specifically to me, more times than I can count. To know that they're gone and you knew and my phone's being texted by my little sister who's not even alive, my little brother who's the sweetest little kid ever, for what purpose? This is Colby Ryan, Colt Mom Lori Vallow's son, confronting her in a jailhouse call that was recorded. I'll never forget the calls from Tot Mom Casey Anthony, and they were video recorded between her and her

parents and boy we learned a lot about her demeanor the way that she would curse at them and yell at them every time they tried to ask about where's Kelly but we're seeing the same thing right here the more that Colby Ryan tries to confront Colt Mom Vallow about JJ and Tylee, the more she becomes calm and flat and putting it back on him. Emily Ashcraft is with us, reporter KSL.com in Utah. You can find her on Twitter at Emily Janine 3. Emily, really interesting that he, Colby Ryan, throws in his mom's face, and she deserves it too, that even after he keeps saying Tylee's gone, that means she's dead. Even after Tylee has been murdered and dismembered, rendered like an animal in a slaughterhouse,

he's still getting texts from Tylee's phone that had to be from cult mom Lori Vallow, Emily Ashcraft. Yeah, well, and some testimony at the trial was that they knew that those texts and some Venmos were sent from a hotel that out of state, that Lori Vallow, where she was. so it it is pretty clear that she was the one that's been sending venmos or or texts and yeah he was he seemed pretty angry that she intentionally hid that from him so she knew clearly that her daughter was dead because she was using her daughter's cell phone to pretend to be Tylee and write her brother, Tylee's brother, Colby Ryan. Let's listen to more. Can you tell me that this is God's will for my whole family, including my stepfather, to be dead?

After everything that you've tried to tell me, you can tell me right now that Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, is on your side. You tell me that with all the conviction in your heart that Jesus Christ is on your side right now. Please. Guys, there is a later moment where cult mom Lori Vallow actually laughs in her son's face as they're talking on the phone. Listen. You're right. You know what, Matt?

And we all go stand there and say everything. You're absolutely right. He will convince the people who act in his name to a pure blasphemy. This is funny. This is funny.

This is funny. You're laughing. Like, this is funny. How come your camera's on, mom? You don't want to look me in the eye? Why can't you look at me? It's just me. I'm in my house alone.

I love you. I always will. One day you will see and one day you will understand. Go ahead and hang up. I do love you. See how that works for you. You going to hang up? I don't have anything else to say.

So when she doesn't like the questions, she starts laughing at her own son who's struggling with the murder of his little brother and sister and then makes to hang up but there's more i'm the one that knows i'm the one that was in the hospital for hundreds of days watching herself i'm the one that was there doing everything with jj every day i was the one who did it all these years. You did it all to throw it in the garbage. You don't know what happened. You don't know what happened. It doesn't matter what happened if they're buried in your new husband's backyard.

Tell me that matters what happened. Why does she keep saying, you don't know what happened, you don't know what happened, and then Colby Ryan really boils it down and says, they're dead, Mom, and they're buried in your new husband's backyard. So what else is there to say? And I think right there, Robin Drake and Karen Stark were really getting at the heart

of what I now believe to be called Mom Lori Vallow's hatred for children. Did you hear her say, I was the one that did it all these years. I was the one that took care of Tylee in the hospital for hundreds of days. I was the one stuck taking care of JJ, who has learning disabilities. That was me all these years. She is unburdening herself, Karen Stark. Jay, who has learning disabilities. That was me all these years. She is unburdening herself, Karen Stark. She killed them or arranged for them to be killed so she wouldn't have that burden anymore. And tremendous rage and anger over that, Nancy, over being a mother, over doing the things

that a mother does, that a mother does that a parent does and she it's so interesting because most of the time she's kind of removed like disassociated like oh you're talking about me killing my children i'm you know i'm laughing i'm not even present And then all of a sudden, all of this rage breaks through, and you get to hear her true feelings. You don't know what happened. And part of it is how much she took care of them, but also how terrible they were and evil and the awful things that they did. All of these hints about why they needed to be eliminated.

It's just outrageous. The jury is hearing these calls just like we are right now. To Emily Ashcraft joining us from KSL.com, how is the jury reacting? You know, I haven't seen a ton of reaction. But, you know, they do, they're more attentive than I've seen other juries. Like, I think the story is drawing them in. Are they taking notes? Some of them are, yeah.

Listen to this. My own mom, my siblings, and my whole family, my dad, are ever since gone except for you and your jail because of it. I am afraid to heavenly father himself and ask him to help me survive this. Do you understand the freaking earthquake that has been caused? Do you know how many people are hurt and broken now? And you're telling me that there's a reason? Why are you following Chad down the rabbit hole, mom? Why would you follow anybody that is not good? How could you

follow someone that cannot lead you to salvation in Jesus, Mom? And notice, no response. Cult Mom Lori Vallow goes silent when confronted with tough questions she can't answer. Not only did the jury hear these calls, jailhouse calls, between cult mom Lori Vallow and her son Colby Ryan, but this torpedo continues to tear asunder any case the defense may have had. At least at this juncture, Colby Ryan gets on the stand and breaks down in tears. Listen.

Strass states exhibit six. Do you recognize that person? Yes. Who is that? That's my sister, Tylee Ryan. Okay. What was your specific relation with Tylee Ryan? She was my half-sister.

Okay. Mr. Ryan dates Exhibit 4. Do you know that person? Yes. Who is that? My little brother, J.J. Vallow. What's your specific relation with J.J. Vallow?

He was my adopted brother. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Jan Gorniak joining us today, renowned medical examiner out of Vegas, board-certified pathologist. Dr. Gorniak, thank you for being with us. We know that, and correct me if I'm wrong, Emily Ashcroft, but we know that JJ was seemingly hermetically sealed. He was in plastic bags. He still had on his little pajamas. He was wearing the night that he was taken out of cult mom Lori Vallow's apartment by her brother Alex Cox. He was taken out of Colt Montlorey Vallow's apartment by her brother, Alex Cox. He still even has on his little socks he was going to wear to bed. He was wrapped in bags and sealed with duct tape. Tylee, however, was a completely different matter. She had been dismembered, rendered down

to practically nothing. All that was left remaining of this beautiful teen girl, so full of life and happiness, was a melted bucket of human flesh and fat, singed and charred. So what would that photo have looked like when Colby Ryan was on the stand. And you can hear him when they say, who is that? He starts crying and there's a long pause. And he says, my sister, Tylee Ryan. What would those photos have looked like to this brother now on the stand testifying for the state against cult mom Lori Vallow? Oh, I can only imagine. It just breaks my heart to hear them. But I know that we see that almost on a daily basis. So not that we're immune to it, but we're immune to it. So I can only imagine saying that's my sister only because you know,

but there's no resemblance of even of a body to say that's my sister only because you know, but there's no resemblance of even of a body to say that's my sister, um, or to look at his little brother, um, partially decomposed, you know, whether there's the plastic bag still wrapped around him. Um, I just can't, it, I don't even, you know, you're here, you might, you know, forensic pathologists or police officers, EMS personnel. I don't even want to tell you what these eyes have seen, you know. And so to just imagine that this young man had to see his brother and sister in that shape is just heartbreaking. Plastic bags and duct tape would not have stopped the decomposition process, would they? No, it would not have. And also, you know, it might have slowed it down a little bit. But, you know, the elements, whether you're buried,

is it hot, you know, so things can make it speed up or slow down. But being wrapped in plastic and still have clothes on, that's going to keep your body warm. So most likely the body is going to decompose even faster. Emily Askraft, how much time passed between the murders of Tylee and JJ and the discovery of their bodies on Chad Daybell's property. They were each likely murdered in September, and they weren't found until the spring. I can't remember which month it was, but it was probably over six months. I recall it being March or April. So we've got seven to eight months, Dr. Jean Gorniak, of decomposure.

What would Colby Ryan have seen in those states exhibit photos of the dead bodies? He would have seen bodies that were discolored, you know, green, brown. Sometimes they look leathery. Their skin is so thick and looks like leather. Probably some skeletonization of the body, so really no facial features that he can identify. Just a resemblance of a body, but not really a body. You know it's a body, but you can't wrap your head around it being it's a body. So he would have seen, you know, after all those months, most likely more of a skeletonized body than actually a full body. And that is JJ. To Tara Malik, Idaho lawyer and former state and federal prosecutor, at least there was a body left of JJ, not so for Tylee.

Explain. Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty horrific, the facts here. And I think, you know, it's obviously the fact that these two kids passed away at all at the hands of someone else is a terrible thing. But, you know, just the manner in which Tylee was treated by these folks and, you know, the fact that there's almost nothing left of her is just astounding. And I think, you know, again, this jury is going to have to see these photographs.

I think it's shocking. You know, the state that JJ was in is equally shocking. I mean, this is a very small child. This is a little boy. They're seeing, pictures of him happy and smiling in court. And then in stark contrast, you know, he's got tape over his face and he's wrapped in plastic. I mean, it's just terrible. And what to you, Emily Ashcraft, had happened to Tylee? What were the state photos like of Tylee's remains? I know that those remains were just so burned.

There was no way to do an autopsy. And so there's so few clues to the way that she died. To Dr. Z Gorniak, Tylee's body was a bucket of flesh. How can you identify a body when there's just a bucket of flesh left? How can you say that's Tylee? Well, you're going to have to do DNA. First, like you said, first of all, you have to make sure, you know, it's human. And then go DNA. Or if there was any teeth left at all, because some teeth, bones can survive or the burning in the decomposition process. So depending on that, you would have to definitely go to DNA.

Like, obviously, you can't do fingerprints or anything like that. And back to your last guest talking about how do you determine cause of death? We don't. We have to look at the circumstances. So in a case like this, some people might call it undetermined, but the manner is homicide just based on the circumstances. Or they might use the term homicidal violence of undetermined means. So you know something happened, but we just can't tell because there's not enough. But the circumstances point to a homicide, even without a cause of death. Right, right. Guys, we're hearing a lot about the children, J.J. entirely. We've heard a fair bit about the murder of the prophet,

Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy Daybell. We have not heard much about the murder of Charles Vallow. That's J.J.'s dad. Now we're hearing more about the murder of Charles Vallow in court. Take a listen to this. And had you made any observations about Ms. Vallow's presence or behavior prior to the death notification? Yes. At the time that I initially saw her and while I was in front of the residence she was standing with her daughter near what we later found out was Charles's rental car in proximity with a patrol officer she appeared calm very non-emotional, was kind of hanging out and seemed to be just having kind of some

general conversation, not really upset, just kind of at one point she was laughing. Do you recall the day that Charles Vallow died? Yes. Okay. Did you happen to have a conversation with Lori Vallow about how he died? Yes. Where were you when you had that conversation? I was at work. Okay.

What time of day was it? Around 2 or 3 p.m. She called me. Okay. What did she tell you about Charles Vallow's death? She told me that he had died from a heart attack. From a heart attack? From a heart attack. Okay.

So even at the beginning when Charles Vallow was shot dead by cult mom Lori Vallow and her brother Alex Cox, she immediately starts spinning it out, telling son Colby, this was the testimony on the stand, that Vallow died from a heart attack. No, he was shot dead. I want to go out to Robin Dreek, behavior expert, former FBI special agent. Robin, thank you for being with us. First of all, and the sound you heard, and that was the prosecuting attorney questioning Detective Sandra Inclan. you heard and that was the prosecuting attorney questioning detective Sandra

Inclan she the detective says that she sees call mom Lori Vallow standing there on the scene of Charles Vallow's shooting death laughing the significance we also hear her laughing at her son, Colby, on those jailhouse calls. Explain, what do you make of it? Yeah, what I'm seeing is her sense of self is so inflated, it's crazy. And she seems to have this nonverbal behavior that she deflects really rapidly with that laugh and then but her ability to re-center herself and regroup to to re-re-engage her lies is profound and so that's exactly what i see her doing here is that she re-centers and she deflects and re-victimizes herself and she literally i think part of this

lack of effect from her is the fact that she treats this as a business because she literally anyone in in her life that's had a policy and life insurance policy seems to disappear until it comes to her i mean i think this is her business and this is exactly what she's been doing her entire life life insurance policies and government benefits because from her timely ryan was getting uh I guess you would call it social security because her father, Joseph Ryan, had died. Also, Colby Ryan's dad. And JJ was getting government benefits because he was disabled. He was learning disabled. And I believe that he's going to be on the spectrum, that he has some degree of autism.

So both of them were still getting government support. After their deaths, she kept getting the checks. And what's really profound here is Colby. I want to know who raised him because she obviously did not have a huge impact on him because he is dropping truth bombs left and right, and she's having to regroup and deflect and reengage. It's pretty remarkable. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Karen Stark, psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan. Karen, in addition to her laughing inappropriately, and I don't know if inappropriately is too mild of a word because it's really twisting the knife once it's stuck in the back because when Colby is bearing her soul to his mother on the phone in this jailhouse phone call, she starts laughing at him. And her other children are murdered, and she's laughing. And then on the scene when Charles Vallow, one of her husbands, is shot dead by her and her brother Alex Cox, she's laughing right in front of the detectives. So there's the not just

inappropriate but cruel laughing, but then you also have Colby describing more of her behavior, how there was lying immediately after the shooting. She already had a lie ready to tell Colby that Vallow died of a heart attack. Nancy, she's a pathological liar. She lies about everything. And she's so good at it, which is what makes it be pathological. I mean, sometimes she doesn't even have to lie. And she lies nonetheless. And she doesn't have any feelings. And I can't think of a better example of somebody who doesn't care. She really doesn't care. She's capable of totally removing herself from what anyone is saying. And people aren't real to her. They're not, she doesn't have connections the way we would. She doesn't love the way you

love your family. She doesn't care. And she certainly feels like she's above it all. She knows something that you don't know. She knows that it's all going to be okay for her. She has a higher purpose. Whatever she's telling herself, she actually believes. And when Colby took the stand, the irony, she mouthed the words, Oh, my baby. Yes. When he took the stand. And you know

what, Robin, you're right. Your intuition is correct. Call him on Lori Vallow. Did not raise Colby. His father raised him. Colby Ryan's father, Joseph Ryan, raised him. And you know what else I find interesting? Tara Malick is with us, a high-profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction, Idaho, is that Ryan, remember, she told everybody that Joseph Ryan, her husband, died of a heart attack. Now she's telling people that Charles Vallow, that's her go-to.

Oh, he died of a heart attack. Yeah, it's so strange. I mean, it's the same story. It's obviously untrue. In fact, you know, during the time she was telling the lies, people were getting different stories. Law enforcement was getting different stories. She either can't keep it straight or she doesn't care, quite frankly. But all of those lies go directly to her credibility.

Why would you lie to law enforcement? Why would you lie to people in the community about the reason that your ex-husband or husband died and passed away? It doesn't make any sense. I mean, that is what makes her a psychopath. You're seeing a perfect example of somebody who doesn't care, who's so devious and capable of lying, of pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, of keeping checks that she shouldn't be keeping. This is classic psychopathic behavior. Emily Ashcraft joining us from KSL.com. Were you in the courtroom when Colby took the stand? I was in the overflow courtroom.

So then, yes. And what did you see, if any, regarding any reaction in the courtroom? Because we're told that gasps broke out in the courtroom when Colby Ryan took the stand and that Colt Mom Lori Vallow mouthed the words, oh, my baby. I mean, did she not expect him to take the stand? I'm sure she was aware, but I think she has been more emotional during that testimony than the others. What do you mean? Most of the time she's been pretty focused, but not very emotional.

But we have the artist that is in the courtroom, she gets, during his testimony, some emotional looks on Lori's face that we haven't been seeing other days you know it's interesting uh Tara Malik high profile lawyer out of Idaho this witness as emotional as he is is also technically a very important witness for the state because without him it would be more difficult to get these phone calls in you can't just say to the jury okay now I'm going to play some phone calls to where you you've got to lay a foundation with one of the people that are on the call or the FBI

agent that was making the tap. Somebody has to legitimize the phone call to get through evidentiary hurdles. You can't just go in and start playing whatever you want to without laying a foundation, a legal foundation for it. But also, he, Colby Ryan, describes the texts he was getting from Tylee after she's dead. And we now know those texts were coming from some hotel that cult mom Lori Vallow was snugged up in. So this is a very important, a significant witness for the state. In addition to the emotional, as I said, bomb, torpedo, he landed in the defense. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the state has the burden of introducing and getting evidence into the record.

And they have to follow certain rules in order to do that. And you can't just say, you know and here you go, judge and jury, here's the phone call that we're going to play, or here's the text message that we got. They're going to have to go step by step, brick by brick, and build this house. And that means having him come in and describe how he called her, when he called her, why he called her, identifying the voices, authenticating that this is the full telephone conversation or, you know, the portions that they're playing of the telephone calls, that those are true and accurate.

So he is critically important. And those text messages, you know, when he thought he was texting with his sister, not only are they just heartbreaking and traumatic, you know, for the reason of his human emotions after he finds out that it was mom and not his sister, and his sister was dead at the time. But also to show, you know, the length that Lori went to, to really cover her tracks in a way and the deception. And so the only way to really get that evidence in to show the concern in the

community but also to show this deception is to go to him and have him describe what he did and what efforts he made to track him down earlier you heard robin drake talk about motive which estate of course doesn't have to show but take a listen to our cuts 330 and 331 regarding the motive for murder. Did you ever have a chance to speak with Lori Vallow about Charles Vallow's life insurance policy? A few weeks after Charles was killed she just had mentioned that she wasn't receiving any of the life insurance money from Charles. Okay. Was it your understanding from your conversation that Lori Vallow believed she was the beneficiary of Charles' life insurance policy until after he died? Yes.

When Charles was alive, did you ever have occasion to speak with Lori Vallow about her and Charles' finances? Yes. How often would that happen? I would say maybe monthly or twice a month or twice every other month. Okay. What was the general nature

of those conversations? Mostly to tell me that they were quote-unquote out of money. I wonder if it ever dawned on her that maybe she should get a job like everybody else. I guess not. When you think about it, that someone could actually murder a little boy, seven-year-old JJ and his teen sister for under the misbelief that she was going to get the life insurance policy from the dad and the social security benefits for these two little children it was all about the money karen stark yeah which

shows you nancy that she knew exactly what she was doing this is not a case of insanity this is somebody who is very calculated very clear about i'm going to murder them. I'm going to make sure that they're dead so that I can collect this money. Think about that. Just it's about the money, not about any human caring or connection. Yeah, Nancy, you had said that, you know, to get a job. To her, this was her job. Her job was her cult beliefs and this is how she paid the bills. I wonder if this is sinking in to the jury's minds.

We wait as this trial unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.