Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mommy's 'BIBLICAL DIET' kills baby boy

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

The death of a New York infant has been labeled a homicide. Pix11 reports that authorities were called to a home in October 2020, off of Liberty Avenue in Jamaica, about an unresponsive child. When deputies arrived, they found 7-month-old Kameri Garriques unconscious but with no signs of physical trauma. First responders rushed the infant to Jamaica Hospital Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. Investigators said the baby appeared to be malnourished.As CrimeOnline reported, the child’s mother, Carla Garriques, 28, said that she kept him on a Biblical vegan diet and wasn’t “going to carry a fat a**child.” Garriques reportedly admitted that her baby was small for his age, but she claimed she, too, has always been small, adding that a vegan diet prevented her son from consuming “formula where it has chemicals in it.”Garriques told the New York Post that she did initially feed her son baby formula, but started the vegan diet after her son developed thrush. Garriques’ mother, who also spoke to the Post, interjected and said the baby was fed “fruits and vegetables…crushed with boiled potatoes.”Joining Nancy Grace today: Melissa Hoppmeyer - Chief, Special Victims & Family Violence Unit, Prince George's County State's Attorney's Office, Co-Founder of Right Response Consulting, "No Grey Zone" Podcast, www.rightresponseconsulting @NoGreyZoneRRC Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.AngelaArnoldMD.com Dr. Michelle Dupre - Forensic Pathologist and former Medical Examiner, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Ret. Police Detective Lexington County Sheriff’s Department Dan Scott - Retired Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Sergeant, 26 years with Special Victims Bureau Specializing in Child Abuse Kristy Mazurek - Emmy Award-winning Investigative Reporter, President of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications Firm Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. We've all heard of every sort of diet there is known to man. You've got keto, you've got fasting, you've got Atkins, no fat, no calories, no butter, no fake sugar. Well, it's hard to make sense of it all, but there is one diet you can't forget. It's called the biblical diet. Now, what is that? I'm not sure. I guess you only eat things you read about in the Bible. Although I'm sure they don't address diets in the Bible.

But how does that relate to murder? You'll find out. NYPD were called to the Garicas family's home October 30th after a 911 call just before 10 p.m. Upon arriving, police found Kamari unconscious and unresponsive, with no obvious signs of physical injury. According to police, the child's mother, Carla Garriquez, called 911. The 28-year-old mother told police she put Kamari to sleep and later realized he was unconscious. He was rushed from the family's home on Liberty Avenue to Jamaica Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. A little boy dead. Still, how does that relate to a biblical diet? Let's introduce an all-star panel to break it

down and put it back together again. First of all, Melissa Hopmeyer, Prince George County Chief Special Victims and Family Unit, co-founder of Right Response Consulting, also No Gray Zone Podcast. And you can find her at rightresponseconsulting.com. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Michelle Dupree is with us, forensic pathologist, former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide and Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide, also former police detective. Dan Scott, former L.A. County Sheriff Sergeant, 26 years with the Special Victims Bureau,

specializing in child abuse. But first, to Christy Mazurek, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter. Let's just start with the 911 call. What do we learn from the 911 call? Why were police, why was 911 summoned to the home to start with? Well, because the mom finally found the child unresponsive and cold to the touch. Oh, my goodness. So she had other family members there that were greatly concerned about the baby.

And also, it's my understanding, Christy Mazurek, that mommy said when she put him to bed the night before, everything was fine, correct? That is correct. That's what she claims. A very different tale when first responders show up on the scene, and she's telling a very different tale now. Guys, I'm trying to figure out how you put a baby to sleep at night, and the next morning, the baby is dead.

We're talking about seven-month-old Kamari. You know, let me go to you, Dr. Michelle Dupree. I'm sure it has happened. How would a child, what are possible causes of death, CODs, of a child that you put them to sleep, they're perfectly fine, you wake up the next morning, they're cold to the touch and dead. Well, Nancy, you're right. There could be several causes. One, of course, is something we call SIDS or Sudden Unexplained Infant Death Syndrome. There's specific guidelines for that and everything else must be ruled out. If the child is sleeping with someone else. Oh, wait a minute. Hold on. I don't want to interrupt. But right there, when you said in order to diagnose sid sudden infant

death syndrome you rule out everything else so basically sid is a diagnosis by elimination that's correct huh i don't like that because that doesn't really tell me it says that just tells me it wasn't any of the other things you tried well it's like a shoe. It's like a shoe, Dr. Dupree, where you try on all the other shoes and this one doesn't exactly fit, but it's better than the rest. So you go with it. Well, that's why it's sudden unexplained infant death.

We don't have another cause of death. Oh, I didn't know it was S-U-I-D. I thought it was S-I-D, SIDS. It's both. There's both. And it's basically the same thing. The new terminology is S-U-I-D. I thought it was S-I-D. SIDS. It's both. There's both. And it's basically the same thing. The new terminology is S-U-I-D-S. Well, it's new to me.

So you're telling me a child, and I get it, a child could die of sudden infant death syndrome, and it's kind of unexplained. You know, doctor, another thing, I can't believe I did this, but I remember traveling with the children down to my parents' home and there was no really good place to set them up when they were infants. So I pulled out a folding bed from a sofa in the front of the home so I wouldn't wake anybody up in the back if they cried and I put them Dr. Dupree I'm almost embarrassed to say it uh I put them in their car seats one arm's length from me I slept right beside them but they were kind of

sitting up you know they could because they were premature, have tipped their head down and died of positional asphyxia. And I would never have known anything. So that's one way a child could die, positional asphyxia, if they get wrapped up in their blankets. And they're fine when they go to bed. And you wake up, they're dead. Yes, Nancy, that's right. And again, SIDS would be something similar to that. Post-sleeping sometimes can cause the same thing when it's unintentional suffocation.

There can be many things. And there's a whole back to, what is it, back to school, back to sleep. Back to sleep. Back to sleep back to sleep back to sleep because you want the baby sleeping on its back to avoid SIDS or positional asphyxia but you know generally speaking though Dr. Michelle Dupree babies don't just die in their sleep they don't have a heart attack they they don't die of diabetes or high blood pressure in the middle of the night. So it's very rare that a baby should die in their sleep, right? Exactly, Nancy. In fact,

we have a saying that babies and kids do not die unless there is a significant medical history that is documented with some cause of death. So we always do a death investigation. So what more do we know? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. According to the New York Post, Garikas claims Khmeri was frequently developing thrush, a fungal infection which infants and toddlers are at risk of developing after Garikas says she tried six different types of baby formula. She also says Khmeri has never been vaccinated against childhood diseases. Uh-uh. No, no, right there. Not vaccinated. Okay. For the rest of the panel, please just jump in when you're ready, but I'm really hammering Dr. Michelle Dupree right now, former medical examiner,

forensic pathologist, specialties, homicide investigations, and child abuse. So Dr. Dupree, I got to tell you, we went through multiple baby formulas with the twins. Once they started taking formula at about, you know, two months, we went through a lot of different formulas before we could find one that would not upset their stomachs. So I don't think that's unusual that she tried six different formulas. But wait a minute, on this vaccination thing, I was one of those moms that was freaked out by vaccinations, especially when they bundled them. What does it mean to bundle vaccinations, Dr. Dupree?

Nancy, it means that you give several different vaccinations at the same time and usually in the same shot. And it's very common. It actually prevents having to stick the child more than once. Oh, please wait. I remember duking it out with the pediatricians and they would bring in more doctors. I just, you know, the twins were so tiny. Something seemed wrong with them getting multiple vaccinations at once.

Translation, we were back and forth to the doctor about every two to three weeks so they could unbundle them and give the shots one by one. And I know that may not make sense, but in my mind, it made a lot of sense. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, how does a seven-month-old little boy end up dead one morning, cold to the touch. Mommy can't really explain what happened. But we do know she says he was fine when he was put to sleep the night before. But what is this business about thrush? Dr. Angela Arnold, let me go to you.

Because, guys, psychiatrists like Dr. Angela Arnold also are MDs. Dr. Angie, thrush. I remember hearing about it. I remember the twins being checked for thrush. What is it? Well, thrush is a type of yeast infection that can show up in a baby's mouth. And it's typically because their normal flora is not is not acting properly and so they get only know flora and fauna flora being the the plants out in the woods what

do you mean they don't have flora is the natural is just the natural bacteria that's in your mouth okay thrush is a fungal infection you can get. You can, it can be in the birth canal as a yeast infection. But it's, it's when your other microorganisms that are in your body are out of whack. Okay. And then that's how, and then, and then it's, and then the thrush starts to overgrow. Let me understand what you're saying. What did you say is out of whack in the body for a baby to get thrush? Oh, the other microorganisms that normally occur, that naturally occur in a baby's system. And why would they not be occurring?

Well, one of the reasons they might not be occurring is because of malnutrition. Okay, guys, I'm just a JD. I'm just a trial lawyer. On our panel today, we've got Melissa Hotmeyer, Dr. Angie, Dr. Dupree, Dan Scott, Christy Mazurk. Not all of us are MDs. But when I hear thrush can be caused by malnutrition, that gets my attention. To Melissa Hotmeyer, Prince George County Chief of the Special Victims and Family Violence

Unit, co-founder of Right Response Consulting. I mean, I could go on and on forever, Melissa Hopmeyer, about you and all your many, many awesome qualifications, but thrush, when I hear that, doesn't concern me. But sometimes, Melissa, do you just look at the whole picture and you get a really bad feeling? So I've got this baby that is cold to the touch in the morning.

Okay. Can't see anything wrong with him. He's not covered in bruises or anything like that. Mommy says he was fine when he went to sleep. So I would immediately think of SIDS, although seven months is a little bit old for SIDS. From a layman's point of view, I hear of babies not turning over in the middle of the night, not seven months old. You're right about that, Nancy. But then when I add, thank you, Dr. Angie, so it's not just anecdotal.

But then Melissa Hopmeyer, when I add, he keeps having recurring thrush, okay, still starting to get a little concerned about what do we know about this. And then third, Melissa, when I hear mom doesn't want baby vaccinated. Now, listen, there are a lot of very intelligent people in the world that do not agree with vaccinations. And I'm not having the anti-vax fight right now. But when you start combining all of this together, in my mind, I'm getting a nefarious gut reaction. Do you ever do that? You don't know all the facts, but you start getting very suspicious. Oh, absolutely. And I think when you have a dead seven-month-old or

one that's cold to the touch, you have to get that gut reaction. Otherwise, you're not doing your job correctly. You know, it just doesn't all fit together for me, Melissa. Guys, Melissa Hopmeyer that I'm talking to is the chief of the Special Victims and Family Unit. I've got Dan Scott with me, former L.A. County Sheriff. Now, you know, he could tell a story or two. Dan Scott, take a listen to this. Carla Garrigues says she kept her son Camari on a biblical vegan diet because she didn't want to carry a fat ass child. And he would often be fed fruits and vegetables crushed with boiled potatoes, according to the child's grandmother. Garrigues told the New York Post she believes vegan means everything that's in the Bible.

Dan Scott, I just wish I could get my hands around this woman's neck right now. And I usually don't threaten violence. I mean, I've tried. I don't even know how many cases. I don't even know how many jury trials. I don't even know how many guilty pleas. I can only estimate. Did I just hear this? Did not want to carry a fat ass child? I've heard your experts and you mentioned the word suspicious

a number of times. That is the key word for a mandated reporter. Suspicion. You don't prove abuse. You suspect abuse. How many times has this child been to the pediatrician? How many times has the siblings been? None of them picked up on any of this. I want to know as an investigator, how many times children's services had been out to that house in the last seven months prior to cold and not breathing? It's too late. Child abuse mandated reporters should, if they were seen, I'm assuming, and this is just an assumption, that there was some type of doctor care. Why didn't they pick up on it? All too often I hear doctors and nurses, well, I wasn't quite sure, so I didn't want to get them in trouble with children's services.

Bull, your job is to suspect these things. Thrush, if it's got to do with malnutrition, that's a red flag for child abuse. You know, I'm trying to figure out what Dan Scott is saying is absolutely correct. In our country, there are safety nets. For instance, teachers, even play school, even daycare providers, if they notice anything wrong, such as bruises or cutting or suspicious pictures even. I remember I had a trauma station of a little four-year-old girl, and she drew pictures of a man's erect penis. Why would she know that at age four? So that's an indicator you see, but the daycare provider saw the photo,

saw the painting, the picture, and brought it to the attention of authorities. School teachers see black eyes and cuts and messy and lice and this and that, and they report it. But what about to Melissa Hotmeyer, a child that is not in daycare, is not in play school, and is not going to the doctor for the doctor to notice what's wrong? They fall through that safety net. They sure do, yeah, and it's devastating when that happens because there's nobody keeping eyes on them. The people who are supposed to be protecting them are the ones who are abusing them. This whole biblical diet.

First of all, for the mom to jump up and say she did not want to carry a fat ass child. Her words, not mine. But then says she has him on the biblical diet uh to you christy mizzurich what is the biblical diet does anybody know well it's her interpretation of the biblical diet i mean for christians we all hear about eating the fatted calf, right? Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? Well, in the Bible, I try to be a Christian, but I don't recall eating a fatted calf. Wait, are you talking about in the Old Testament? I try my best not to pay any attention to it. It's scripture,

but Carla has changed her tale numerous times with police. She was feeding the baby. Okay, I'm asking you about the biblical diet. What does anybody know, Dr. Angie Arnold, Dr. Michelle Dupree, have any of you ever heard of the biblical diet? Okay, it is a quote, Bible-based health plan. You know, every time I've read a research biblical diet, it starts with talking about what's wrong with all the other diets, keto, paleo, low-fat, calorie counting, Mediterranean,

Whole30, Atkins, THM, what's that? South Beach, on and on and on. But apparently the Bible diet is a health plan. It includes olive oil. I know that. It includes, as Christy Mazurk was saying, nuts and grains. But how does this relate to the death of a seven-month-old little boy? The biblical diet? Well, we're finding out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As far as I can recall,

Melissa Hotmeyer, I remember Christ drinking wine, or at least making wine, eating bread. He basically wandered from city to city and eating whatever his host provided for him. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure he said something to the effect of don't focus so much about laws regarding what you do eat, what you put in your body. It's what you speak and what you do out of your body that the Lord is interested in. Have you ever heard of this, Melissa Hotmeyer, as being a type of child abuse? I mean, it's definitely a type of child abuse. You know, we haven't had this type of case, but we've definitely had other cases that are similar.

But, you know, children, especially babies at this age, are supposed to be getting milk and, you know, very, very little food at this point. Seven months, you know, a lot of kids don't start any food until six months. And putting your child, a baby under the age of one on a diet is just a level of cruel I can't really imagine. Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. Carla Garricka has insisted that her baby wasn't underweight, but her mother, Corrine, told the New York Post the child was small. According to the outlet, Carla Garrickas insisted that her baby wasn't underweight, but her mother, Corrine, told the New York Post the child was small. According to the outlet, Carla Garrickas said at the end of the day, Khmeri was a vegan. She said she's a small person, only 100 pounds, and not a, quote, fat ass woman who will carry a fat ass child.

Corrine Garrickas also said that Carla Garrickas was going through something. Yeah, she was going through something. She was going through starving her child. To Dan Scott, former L.A. County Sheriff Sergeant, 26-year Special Victims Unit, specializing in child abuse. Dan, have you ever seen a child abuse case involving malnutrition, starving, to put it simply? Yes. It's rare, but it does come up. And normally, you mentioned people seeing black eyes, bruises, and things like that at a daycare.

When you have malnutrition, generally, it's going to be picked up by a pediatrician. The average person isn't going to know that. But when you hear statements about carrying a fat ass child, somebody in that interview, I want to interview everybody if this is my case, to find out, I can't bring the child back. But what I can do is find out, was there a part of the system that failed did somebody fail to see something in the professional field but i also want to know in the family why didn't somebody call why didn't somebody report this maybe they did then you want to look at how many times were children's services out there and if at all if at all If at all. If at all. To Chrissy Mazurik, investigative reporter, joining us.

Chrissy, didn't the mom, Gary Kay, share a home with her mother and the other children? Yes. So the grandmother was there seeing everything. Correct. Several family members lived in an upper and lower. What was interesting about the situation at this, this family was kind of always in a state of flux, moving from neighborhood to neighborhood. So neighbors watching this family interact, never really saw this young baby. You know, that's really interesting because do you remember the House of Horrors out in California? Let me throw that one to you, Dr. Angela Arnold, where the Turpins would take all of these photos of their children, for instance, that all be at Disneyland. And they'd be like, how many children do they have? Like seven or eight. And they'd all have matching shirts. And then they renewed their vows in Vegas.

They had all the children there dressed up in similar outfits. And they would post all these family photos online. But the neighbors never saw the children. It wasn't until one teen girl managed to break out of a window and call 911. And there were children that were adult age that weighed like 80, 90 pounds. They had been chained to the bed and starved. And none of the neighbors ever saw them. And, of course, they were being homeschooled. And the school district never checked

in on them at all. So they also fell through the safety net, i.e. somebody didn't do their job. And I think what Dan Scott is saying is absolutely correct. The neighbors, oh, it was Christy Mazurek, our investigative reporter said the neighbors and their various neighbors never saw the children, never saw this child. You know, Nancy, I've been giving this a lot of thought. Why do we keep hearing these same stories over and over again? And I think that we need to get to a point where if there is a red flag, if someone sees a red flag, if your mom sees a red flag, if on the one visit to the pediatrician, there is a red flag scene, it needs to be reported. And the person who reports it

needs to feel like they're safe in that reporting and that something's actually going to get done about it. I'm not so sure she ever even took the baby to the doctor, which is very disturbing to me because I can't really think of a way to police that and enforce parents taking their children to the doctor as they're growing. I mean, Nancy, typically a pediatrician sees the baby when it's born in the hospital and they make an appointment for that baby after. And if you don't go to that appointment... Nothing happens, Dr. Angie.

Nothing happens. No one is policing it. And I get it because most parents want to take their children to the doctor. Guys, after all of this, what do we find out about COD, cause of death? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. NYPD said the case was ruled a homicide by the New York Medical Examiner's Office and that Khmeri died from complications to malnutrition. According to the New York Daily News, doctors said the baby has no food in his stomach and police noted that

he appeared underweight. No food in his stomach and appeared underweight. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, former medical examiner, when you look at a child, what are the signs that COD is malnutrition? Well, Nancy, we look at the overall development of the child for their age. Certainly underweight is one of them. We look at the skin, whether it's wrinkled up because there's no muscle mass there. We look for things, if the child is alive, we look for things like retractions in the neck and chest muscles when they're breathing.

We also remember that one of the biggest things about malnutrition in children is the lack of vitamin B12. This is for brain development. Lack of that can cause permanent brain damage and subsequently death. When you said something about the skin being wrinkled, would you repeat that please? Yes. Oftentimes the skin is very wrinkled because there's no muscle mass underneath the skin. And so basically the child is starved to death and the body tends to eat the muscle, what little there is.

And so the skin, which has been covering the body, it's been wrinkled because there's nothing left underneath it. So the COD cause of death is malnutrition for this little seven month old baby boy, Kamari Garike, who is on the quote, biblical diet. So what does mommy do? Take a listen to this. Kamari Garikas was just seven months old when he died, according to NYPD. He was found unconscious when police responded to a 911 call and later died at the hospital. A day later, a caseworker showed up to take custody of Garikas' two-year-old daughter, but the mother and child weren't there. Where were they? Listen.

Four days later, Garika's and her daughter were tracked down to Hackensack, New Jersey at a travel lodge off Route 46 after her cell phone was pinged there. Police said the two-year-old was found in good health and that the child is now in custody

of city child welfare officials. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the death of a little boy, just seven months old, Camiri Garike. At first, I thought maybe he died of SIDS even at seven months. There were no visible signs of injury, no blood, no bruises, no scrapes, no scratches. It was only when the medical examiner determined he died of malnutrition, caseworkers are sent to the home to get the two-year-old little girl away, and mommy is gone.

You know, Prince George County Chief Special Victims and Family Violence Unit co-founder, Right Response Consulting, Melissa, the law has changed, and a judge can no longer, in many jurisdictions, instruct a jury as to flight being indicia of guilt. In other words, when you see a state patrol pull up behind you, Melissa, I doubt pretty much you floor it to 110 MPH. You might break a little bit. Why? Because you're not afraid if they search your trunk. You don't care. That is flight. And it is still arguable to a jury by the prosecution that flight is indicia of groundwork. Fake passports, a bag of Viagra, his hair dyed, and a lot of cash, and camping equipment. He was on the run. He was leaving before he could get caught and charged with murder.

That's flight. And many juries believe that is proof of guilt. So after the COD is announced of malnutrition, mommy actually goes on the run with her children. Yeah, I mean, it shows a definite consciousness of guilt. And I think it's an important piece of evidence, not only for the investigation, but for the prosecution later to show that this wasn't accidental, that this wasn't because she didn't know how to raise children. She has children. This is because she made a she made a decision and she was premeditated in that decision.

Back to Christy Mazurek, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter. Christy, how many children did this woman have? Four in total. Okay. So the dead baby, the two-year-old that's now in the custody of Child Protective Services. Right. But previous to all of this, two other children were removed from her home by their biological father and his

complaints. So she was on the radar for sure. So she's got a track record. The husband, the former husband took their two children away. You know, it's interesting out of these children, she picks one child to starve dead, But this whole biblical diet, putting your baby on a diet, this is not the first time it's happened. Take a listen to our friend Katie Johnson at CBS Miami. Two parents in Cape Coral are charged with the death of their 18-month-old son. The baby weighed just 17 pounds at the time of his death.PERTS SAY 17 POUNDS IS WHAT A 7- MONTH-OLD SHOULD WEIGH, NOT A BABY WHO'S A YEAR AND A HALF OLD. A LEE

COUNTY GRAND JURY INDICTED RYAN PATRICK O'LEARY AND SHEILA O'LEARY WEDNESDAY ON CHARGES OF FIRST- DEGREE MURDER, AGGRAVATED CHILD ABUSE, AGGRAVATED MANSLAUGHTER, CHILD ABUSE, AND TWO

COUNTS OF CHILD NEGLECT. ACCORDING TO A POLICE REPORT, THE MOTHER CALLED 911 IN SEPTEMBER WHEN SHE NOTICED HER SON WAS NOT BREATHING AND FELT COLD. ACCORDING TO NEWSPRESS, THE BABY WAS

NOT IN THEIR BODY FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS. THE BABY WAS IN THE BODY FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS. THE BABY WAS counts of child neglect. According to a police report, the mother called 911 in September when she noticed her son was not breathing and felt cold. According to news press, the baby was dead when paramedics arrived. The state attorney for the case says the indictments also include three other children who suffered child abuse and extreme neglect. They are three years old, five years old, and 11 years old. Well, that's not the end of that story. Take a listen to NBC2. We're also learning the three other children in the home were only allowed to eat raw fruits and vegetables and two of them were severely underweight. Sheila and Ryan did admit

to police they thought something was wrong with her baby weeks before but didn't call for help. In this nine-page report just obtained by NBC2, Sheila tells police the baby became sick six months ago and was throwing up and lost weight. About a week before the baby died, Sheila says the 18-month-old stopped eating and would only breastfeed occasionally. The medical examiner says the baby was extremely malnourished, dehydrated, and feet were swollen. Sheila says the baby has never been to the doctor and was born inside their home. Cape Coral police also say two other children were also extremely underweight,

and one of their children's teeth were rotting. Sheila told police the family would sleep in the living room with one child on a hammock and another on a dog bed. Are we so PC, so politically correct that we don't want to investigate or stop parents from their own brand of religion and find out it amounts to child abuse ending in death. Take a listen to Rachel Lloyd Fox 4. Sheila O'Leary's attorney told me all the kids living in this home were healthy. Now, I did ask him about the claims of malnourishment, and he says O'Leary actually breastfed her son just a few hours before he died, so he doesn't think malnutrition was the cause of death. Now, Sheila O'Leary and her husband Ryan face a manslaughter charge after their baby died here back in september. They turned themselves in last night after the medical examiner revealed malnutrition caused the baby's

death. O'Leary's attorney, John Muska, told me on skype today that his client was so religious that she did not allow any of her four kids to watch television. He also says she's vegan, but fed her children balanced meals. But he did say there were health concerns regarding the toddler before he died. The child had been sick six months prior and had not fully recuperated. The child had started eating better and, the child had started eating better. And then the child began teething. And the mother was concerned, very concerned, that that was causing him to not eat as well.

So concerned he never was taken to the doctor. To Dr. Angela Arnold, a psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, how do people get so wrapped up in their religion, they can't see their child is dying? Well, this is called hyper-religiosity, okay? And there's a mental health component to this. I mean, people can get so into this that they become psychotic about this, Nancy. And, you know, you know what bothers me? OK, yes, I hear that she's done this to these other children. She has a baby. I have no idea what kind of prenatal care she got while she was pregnant with this child.

I don't know where her mind was while she was pregnant with the baby. And now the baby comes on to the she's she's probably hyper religious there's a part of her i don't believe it's the whole thing but there's a part of her that believes the part that's bothering me is that she wants this skinny baby okay okay but then she decides to feed it this this biblical diet so she's got some hyper-religiosity going on because she herself eats a... Is that real or did she not want a, quote, fat-ass baby and she did not want to be a

fat-ass mom? Her words, not mine. You just heard about the O'Leary's. Well, what about the Welch's? Listen to this. How long ago did you find them, Chair? It's about an hour and a half. I was waiting.

I called my lawyer first thing to ask, you know, what's the next thing I could do. And they said wait until they're here to call, you know, the police and get that going. Basically, that's the point where I waited so long. They're almost here. So I was just, I was waiting on people's counsel. So you found the child an hour and a half ago? Yeah.

And called your lawyer first, correct? Yes. Okay. I'm so glad they got that on tape. Unless his doctor was a pediatrician in the emergency room, why are you calling the lawyer while your child is dying?

Talk about proof of guilt. Well, here's more from Sean Welsh's 911 call who starved his child dead. Listen. When was the last time you had contact with a child? Last night.

About yesterday afternoon. About 3 p.m., you know, she was in bed. And, you know, that was that. Wait a minute. He didn't see his child alive since 3 p.m. the day before? What? Okay, it goes on. Take a listen to Ken Kolker, Wood TV, 8 Grand Rapids. Listen.

He says CPS got called on him when he had first refused to get his oldest daughter vaccinated and that he did not get the shots for his other two kids, including Mary. It didn't seem smart to me that you would be saving people who weren't the fittest. If evolution believes in survival of the fittest, well, then why are we vaccinating everybody? Shouldn't we just let the weak die off and let the strong survive? He also spoke against worldly things. I would love to see a commune of Christian disciples living off the grid somewhere

and just living free. The couple called 911 on Thursday after finding their baby unresponsive at their home on Algoma Avenue in Solon Township. An autopsy found the baby died of malnutrition and dehydration. Today, the judge ordered them to stay in jail without bond. That's why you can't live free. Because some people, like him, Seth Welch, kill their children. And there's more.

Listen. Seth Welch's wife, Tatiana Fusari, was in tears. A couple sat side by side for their video arraignment today. You're both charged with what they call felony murder. In court documents, detectives say the couple told them they were aware of their daughter's skinny appearance and low weight for at least a month. The wife told detectives they did not get medical help over fear of CPS taking away their three kids, over distrust of medicine, and because of religious beliefs. All have been topics of some of her husband's rambling videos on Facebook. And, of course, those videos become state's exhibit number one.

You know, it happens over and over and over. Somehow, some quack religion is tied into non-vaccination, is tied into biblical diets and religion, ends in a dead baby. We wait as justice unfolds, but I do not want to see this case pled out cheap on voluntary manslaughter or child neglect. This is a murder of a seven-month-old little boy.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.