Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Moms, grandmothers in a nursing home killed in order of their names to spell MURDER. Now their killer is walking FREE?

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

Two female caregivers at a nursing home murder five women that we know of, for "fun." Some believe there have been 12 victims of this killer duo. Now, one of the killers has been released after nearly 30 years in prison.Joining Nancy Grace today: Ashley Willcott - Judge and trial attorney, Anchor on Court TV John Wagner - Warner Robins Ga. Chief of Police Dr. Michelle Dupre - South Carolina Medical Examiner & Author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, Levi Page - Investigative reporter CrimeOnline.com Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Five dead women that we know of, possibly 12, and this so-called nurse serial killer, Catherine Wood, has been released. It's amazing to me. Potentially 12 dead bodies. Think about it. Think about your mother, your grandmother lying in a rest home, a nursing home, and to have this evil duo, it's Satan and Beelzebub, and skirts. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Sutton Mill is a new neighborhood off Harris Road in Fort Mill. No one here was aware that they have a new neighbor, serial killer Kathy Wood. It's just kind of surprising really, I guess, to say the least.

I have mild concerns. Yeah, I think you'd be an idiot not to have a concern. Wood and her girlfriend Gwen Graham killed at least five elderly women at a Michigan nursing home in the 80s in what some called a lover's pact. One smothered them with linens in their beds while the other acted as a lookout. Prosecutors said they did it to forge a bond between them so one would never leave the other. Police could only prove five killings but believed there were as many as a dozen. Today we ran into Michigan TV reporter Ken Kolker in Fort Mill. He covered the court case 30 years ago for a newspaper. It was bizarre. I mean, we were watching bodies being exhumed, you know, going to cemeteries. Yesterday, Kolker went to Tallahassee, Florida to be there for Wood's release from prison.

He then followed her to her new home in Fort Mill today. Good Lord in heaven. How many dead bodies does it take before you stay in jail forever? I don't understand this. What a lover's pact. My rear end. What a lover's pact. That's why one was the lookout while the other smothered one little old lady after the next. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Why in the hay has this serial killer been released? With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. Judge, trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV, Ashley Wilcott, chief of police, Warner Robins, Georgia, a newcomer, John Wagner, South Carolina medical examiner, author, homicide investigation field guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree, and boy,

do we need a shrink. Psychoanalyst to the stars joining us out of Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany Marshall at drbethanymarshall.com, but right now to crimeonline.com Levi Page investigative reporter Levi I don't get it let's just start at the beginning what can you tell me about the nature of the Alpine Manor nursing home murders so this nursing home is in Grand Rapids Michigan Nancy and in the late 80s Mae Mason Mason, she's 79. She died. Edith Cole, 89, died. Margaret Chambers, 60, died. And Myrtle Luce, 95, died, along with Belle Buckner, 74.

They all died. They all had dementia or Alzheimer's. And Nancy, the deaths were— Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you an md now no dementia that's a pretty broad spectrum who said they had dementia that's what's been reported that's why they prayed on these victims because they were so vulnerable nancy they chose the most vulnerable women at this nursing home to pray on can you tell me whether it's true that these two female killers

smothered five women that we know of trying to pick victims who initials would spell murder, M-U-R-D-E-R, so your life is just part of a crap sheet, what your last name starts with? Yes, they thought that that would bond them together for the rest of their life, Nancy, but that was too complicated to pick out victims with the names that spelled out murder, so they just started doing it to what they considered the easiest targets. And, Nancy, the deaths were initially classified as natural causes. They had to actually exhume the bodies and perform an autopsy to discover that they were murdered using a washcloth. They were all suffocated.

I don't get how it was just naturally assumed they, what did you say? They naturally assumed they died of what, Levi? Natural causes, I guess guess because of their age you know that doesn't sound kosher to me you just assume somebody dies of natural causes and then the bodies start piling up up to 12 take a listen our friends at WSOC TV Catherine Wood walked out of this federal prison in Tallahassee today released over the objections of the relatives of the women she helped kill they fear that she'll kill again TALLAHASSEE TODAY RELEASED OVER THE OBJECTIONS OF THE RELATIVES OF THE WOMEN SHE HELPED KILL. THEY FEAR THAT SHE'LL KILL AGAIN.

IT'S MORE THAN 1,000 MILES FROM THE OLD ALPINE MANOR NURSING HOME IN WALKER TO THE TALLAHASSEE FEDERAL PRISON THAT WOOD HAS CALLED HOME FOR MOST OF THE LAST THREE DECADES. BUT CONDITIONS OF WOOD'S PAROLE SHOW THAT SHE WON'T BE COMING BACK TO LIVE IN MICHIGAN, AT LEAST FOR NOW. decades. But conditions of Woods' parole show that she won't be coming back to live in Michigan, at least for now. Instead, Target 8 has learned that she is headed to live with her sister in Fort Mill, South Carolina, a city of 17,000 people just outside Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm glad she's not coming back here, okay, but on the other side of the coin, I sympathize with the people that's going to be living around her wherever she goes. Attorney John Engman's son-in-law, victim Mae Mason, helped lead the fight to keep Wood locked up after the Michigan parole board in 2018 ordered her release.

I guess they did fight. I find it very difficult to believe. To Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV, you can find her at ashleywilcott.com, that over the objections of the victims, five victims that we know of, potentially 12 dead bodies, they opposed this so-called serial nurse killer getting out. Why let her out, Ashley? All right, so we all know that the goal is if the parole board finds that they're not a threat to society and it's safe to let them out, that they let them out. But when you have victims protesting, and in this case, Nancy, don't forget, she had been denied parole eight times because they found she was still a danger. So I cannot figure out what changed for them to say, oh, she's no longer a danger. I think it was still a danger. So I cannot figure out what changed for them to say,

oh, she's no longer a danger. I think it was a misstep. Take a listen to our friends at Wood TV Target 8. The parole board had denied Wood's release eight times before, finding she was a potential danger and was not remorseful. If I was a neighbor, I'd want to definitely know that we have a serial killer living next door." Retired Walker Police Sergeant Roger Klingiak, who helped investigate the

murders at Alpine Manor Nursing Home in 1987, fears that the 57-year-old Wood could kill again. She's a serial killer and she could do it again and most of them do. Wood spent most of her adult life in the federal correctional institution in Tallahassee kept separate from her accomplice in the murders Gwendolyn Graham who is serving life without parole in Michigan. She testified against Graham saying that Graham had suffocated the victims with washcloths as she acted as a lookout, but investigators believe that Wood was more involved and there could have been as many as a dozen victims.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace i believe that kathy wood was the mastermind she was the one that was uh pulling strings on gwendolyn graham gwendolyn graham uh handled the the dirty work and Kathy Wood was the brains behind it. They killed to bind their love and at first tried to spell murder with their victims' initials. The victims, ages 60 to 98, all suffered from dementia or Alzheimer's disease. Kalaniak's partner in the investigation, retired detective Sergeant Tom Freeman, believes that Wood has earned her freedom. She got 20 to 40 years in prison in exchange for her testimony, but Kaliniak disagrees. It's a horrific crime that these two people were involved in prison forever. My fear is that she will find some old person, old people,

incorporate herself into their family, take their property, take their lives, and move on and do it again. You're hearing our friends at Wood TV. That's Target 8 reporter Ken Kolker. They wanted to spell out M-U-R-D-E-R like a game. Some of these women as young as 60 years old. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, what did they hate? Old people? I don't understand. I've never heard of that before.

Nancy, I've thought so much about this crime, and part of the report is that they had a lover's pact, but I don't believe that. If two men kill in concert, do you say they have a lover's pact, or did the D.C. snipers have a lover's pact? No, it's the same psychology as we see with two men killing together. There's usually one ringleader. It's a stronger person that leads the other person along. And I think Wood was the

ringleader. Graham did her dirty work. But I also think there's a layer. This is very layered. I think that they resented that these older women were getting their needs met. They were getting their meals. They're being their meals, they're being nurtured, they're being visited by their families, and there was a tremendous amount of envy. And this is what we see when caregivers kill their patients. Whether it's a nurse killing a patient or a nanny killing children, usually they feel that this vulnerable person who's receiving nurturing and care is getting something that they're not getting. It makes them envious and they want to strike out and torture and kill. I wonder, Dr. Bethany, if it was that they had to wait on these ladies,

these elderly, all day long and frustration and resentment grew. What about that, Dr. Bethany? I think so. There was a case we covered on the Nancy Grace Show many years ago of a woman, a nanny who was taking care of an infant who could barely sit up. If you remember this footage, she would throw a ball at the infant all day long. The ball would bounce off the infant. The infant would fall over. She'd prop the infant up, and then she'd throw this ball at it all day long. And we talked about this very thing you're bringing up is that here she had to render care to the infant. She had to,

in a sense, wait on the infant, nurture for the infant, care for the infant. Sometimes some of these caregivers have very low wages, and instead of accessing a part of themselves that can be nurturing, they fall into a state of horrible, horrible resentment. Joining me, special guest, Chief of Police from Warner Robins, Georgia, Chief John Wagner. Chief Wagner, how do you believe as a career lawman this makes the police and investigators feel when they go through all of this? And it's tough to get an order of exhumation, Chief Wagner. You know that as well as I do. Very, very tough. They go through all of this intricate detective work, follow all the leads, do all of the investigations, and finally secure convictions

on five female victims, helpless victims. And now this woman walks out of jail, is about six years behind bars per dead body. That's for five victims. I'm not even counting the other seven victims. We believe these two nuts killed. It's terribly demoralizing for law enforcement in general. You put in so much time and work. It's time away from family. It's time away from working on other crimes. It's a lot. And it really is demoralizing for all of law enforcement, you know, altogether, but as well as the detectives and officers that work that personally. You remember all these crimes, and specifically this one, you know, this is a serial criminal. This is somebody that's going to do it again.

Why do you say that, Chief Wagner? Why do you say she'll do it again? Because I remember when Jorn Vandersloot left the country, left Netherland Tilly's and took off. I said, mark my words, I don't know when and I don't know how, but he'll kill again. He will. And he did. You know, they've already, you know, were successful with five. You know, the rumor is that there was at least a dozen. So they were always trying.

And in some cases, they were trying to get better. These five ladies died and they were listed as natural causes. And only by speaking to an ex-husband did anybody ever find out or suspect that there was another person or that these deaths were criminal in themselves? And you're right. We had to – you have to get warrants to get these folks exhumed. There's a tremendous amount of work that you have to do with the judge and paperwork to get persons exhumed and then to go back and to do another autopsy and find out what was wrong because in most of these cases with with natural natural cause um death you're just gonna do a body inspection you're not gonna do an autopsy and and in in some cases um you know they just may be looked at and and do their age and and their medical um problems they you would never suspect that a crime had been committed.

Well, indeed, you find out after you've dug up five more bodies and find out that they were suffocated. And a lot of that stuff you find out through lab results. But again, sadly, that's an expectation of what's going to happen in the nursing home. And you've preyed on a person that has Alzheimer's or dementia, the ones that you were unsuccessful with. How are you going to interview them? You know, they have dementia.

They couldn't even remember what had happened before, or they have Alzheimer's. It's expected for them to not remember. So it's really a terribly sad case. You know what? You're absolutely right, Chief Wagner. What I don't understand, Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, you've got to write another book. I mean, I've already read Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I need more, Dr. Dupree. That's something fun for you to do in all your spare time. Dr. Dupree, why wouldn't they do?

I had no idea that autopsies were not performed in rest homes. You just assume people die of, quote, old age? Nancy, it's a travesty. But in all honesty, for most cases, if an elderly person dies, dies unfortunately it is assumed that they died because they were old i often say just because they're old doesn't mean they died of natural causes but given the constraints of most medical examiner or coroner offices if they are elderly and they do have a medical history then it does not typically fall under the jurisdiction of a medical examiner.

Medical examiners only assume jurisdiction when there is not a physician who is willing to sign the death certificate. If these patients have been under the care of a physician at the nursing home and they have a history of dementia or other illnesses, they most likely will not get an autopsy and it does not mean that they died from natural causes, as we see here. Listen. On October 6, 1988, a man named Ken Wood arrives at the Walker, Michigan, police department with a bizarre tale. Ken Wood proceeded to tell me that his ex-wife had been involved in some homicides at a local nursing home. Ken's ex-wife, Kathy Wood, is a nurse's aide at the Alpine Manor Nursing Home.

Ken tells police she confessed to helping murder five patients with a fellow nurse's aide during the winter of 1987. Authorities remain silent as he pours out the details of his life with Kathy. After a short courtship with 20-year-old Ken Wood, Kathy, age 17, became pregnant, and the two were married right away. She gave birth to a daughter in February of 1980. As a new mother, Ken is really struck by the fact that she can't seem to bond with the child. She's irritated by the child. She won't spend time with her. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. On October 6th, 1988, a man named Ken Wood arrives at the Walker, Michigan,

police department with a bizarre tale. Ken Wood proceeded to tell me that his ex-wife had been involved in some homicides at a local nursing home. Ken's ex-wife, Kathy Wood, is a nurse's aide at the Alpine Manor nursing home. Ken tells police she confessed to helping murder five patients with a fellow nurse's aide during the winter of 1987. Authorities remain silent as he pours out the details of his life with Kathy. After a short courtship with 20-year-old Ken Wood, Kathy, age 17, became pregnant,

and the two were married right away. She gave birth to a daughter in February of 1980. As a new mother, Ken is really struck by the fact that she can't seem to bond with the child. She's irritated by the child. She won't spend time with her. You were hearing our friends at TV show Wicked Attraction, Our Little Secret. That was Pete Demias speaking. So many questions swirling about a serial killer whose lover turns on her. They have a lover's pact to bind each other together, and they agree to kill, we believe, 12 women in a nursing home. They were prosecuted for five of those murders. That was a twisted and circuitous route to be exposed.

Levi Page, investigative reporter, CrimeOnline.com. Levi Page, how did it unfold? How'd they ever get caught? Because all of these victims, Mae Mason, Edith Cole, Marguerite Chambers, Myrtle Luce, Bill Burkhardt, and we believe seven more were intentionally murdered, and it was chalked off as dying of old age, essentially. So how did it all crack wide open, Levi Page? So Catherine Wood confessed it to her ex-husband, and then her ex-husband went to police, and then police arrested Catherine Wood. They questioned her and she said,

I didn't actually physically commit the murders. I was the lookout and it was my lover, Gwendolyn Graham, that was the actual killer that suffocated these women. They charged Gwendolyn Graham with murder and she turned on her lover and testified against her at trial. Gwendolyn Graham was ultimately convicted. Take a listen to our friends at Wicked Attraction. There was a core group of nurses' aides there that seemed to socialize together, and many of them were gay. They spent a lot of their time hanging out at gay clubs. And Kathy became quickly caught up in that whole social world. Kathy's whole life changed. I mean, she was having fun. They're having parties, going to

gay bars. It's not long before she had an affair with one of her co-workers. She had found in a lesbian relationship the ability to communicate in a way that she never had with her husband. She was on a equal par with her partner and found it much more rewarding than a heterosexual relationship. Ken was humiliated and troubled by Kathy's behavior. That's when he noticed her dark side. You know what? I appreciate all the information, but this doesn't have a thing to do with whether you're straight or gay. This has to do with downright murder. Murder. Take a listen to this. Gwen walked in the nursing home. I didn't pay her much

attention. But one day I was sitting in the break room and Gwen walked in and that's the first time I noticed her scars. So I started watching her a little bit. She made me feel pretty. She made me feel special. She would do things that I wanted to do. The two had a relationship that lasted nine months before Gwen abruptly moved back to her hometown, Tyler, Texas. That's when Kathy told Ken that while they were lovers, they murdered five patients. Walker detectives don't know what to think. Our friends at Wicked Attraction, well, that lover's pact that was meant to last for all eternity only lasted nine months as the body count rose. Sounds like the co-defendant in this case Gwendolyn Graham quit and left town

wow I wonder why Dr. Bethany Marshall she couldn't get away fast enough well can you imagine your lover encourages you to kill other people and then turns it into a game looking for women whose initials spell the word murder I I was thinking, why don't they just play Scrabble at night? No, but seriously, what this heinous, malicious hatred that you so rightly said, I think is fueled and spurred by the fact that they have to maybe work low wages, work all day long, they'll resentful of their patients. Wait a minute. Hold it.

I'm not buying that for one second. Why did you even say that, Dr. Bethany? You know how many jobs I had at a sandwich shop where I had to mop the floors and clean the bathrooms? And yes, I did wash my hands before I made sandwiches. Worked till 11 o'clock at night all alone in a strip center where everything else was closed. I mean, you name it, I did it.

I never thought of killing the customers, Dr. Bethany. But you know, Nancy, it seems to me that that becomes a rationalization, and it exacerbates an underlying murderous aspect to their personalities. Do you remember the nanny in New York City that killed three children and piled them in the bathtub while the mother was gone taking one of the fourth child to a swim lesson? And I looked extensively at that case because, again, another caregiver killing her charges. And she had a 19-year-old at home who she felt she couldn't feed, she couldn't send to school, whose needs were being neglected. So here she's indulging and taking care of these children that she horribly resents, all the while living with her own sister and not being able to care for the needs of her own child. Now, of course that doesn't make someone homicidal.

Of course not. But that is a factor. That's not really what you said, Dr. Bethany. I mean, Chief Wagner joining me out of Warner Robins, Georgia. Chief Wagner, how much does it get under your skin when someone like Dr. Bethany Marshall says things like, well, they were underpaid and they were overworked. B.S. That's right. Now, we've all worked for little to no wages, and I never had any homicidal thoughts by any means.

Are you sure about that, Chief? I promise you. You sure about that? I promise you. Neither have I. Neither have I when people think I want to kill them. I actually have never actually thought of killing them. Take a listen to this.

Kathy gives detectives the exact same story she told her husband, Ken Wood. Gwen would roll up a washcloth and place it over the nose and mouth of the potential victim and smother them to death. According to Kathy's version of events, Gwen killed patients

in order to, quote-unquote, relieve her tension. She would become very tense, but when she killed somebody, she would always feel better afterward. These are kind of thrill-killings. Thrill-killings are much more an expression of a deviant personality, and if these women killed these people,

it would be foresighted. crime stories with nancy grace they would alter a favorite phrase they have they'd say i love you forever and then it became i love you forever in a day and then it became forever in two days and supposedly each day represented a murder it occurred so after five murders it was I love you for forever in five days and that was symbolic of the murderous bond that they had together but after a while it became more than Kathy could handle according to Kathy she took part as a lookout in these killings because she was so in love with Gwen and wanted Gwen to love her and was willing to do that until it came to the point supposedly that it was Kathy's turn to kill somebody with Gwen serving as the lookout

and that was too much for her that's when she supposedly stopped soon after Gwen left her for another woman well that fizzled out pretty quickly but in the meantime in just nine short months together these two managed to wreak havoc. Listen to our friends at Wicked Attraction. Kathy admits she and Gwen planned the killings together when they invented a new game called the murder game. In the world that Gwen and Kathy existed, they were perfectly matched. Because what the other one lacked her partner fulfilled and so when you put these two chemicals these two things together it created an explosion

and in any explosion people die the object of the game was to kill patients in a certain order, so their first initials spelled the word murder. The problem with spelling out the word murder as the homicides occurred was that there were several patients that were very active and struggled, and they couldn't actually kill them. And so the game itself, spelling out the word murder, never got finished. You know what, to think that the life of your mother or your grandmother or your great-grandmother is just part of a crapshoot,

a game that these two women came up with. To Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, it turns out that Catherine Wood, the mastermind, flipped on her lover, Gwendolyn Graham. Gwendolyn Graham is still behind bars. Tell me about the plea deal. What happened? So she got the possibility of parole Catherine Wood did if she would testify for the prosecution against Gwendolyn Graham and she did she testified Gwendolyn Graham was convicted she was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole and Catherine Wood was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole and she's come up for parole many times

was denied and then ultimately was granted parole despite the fact nancy that court documents were released and they were trying to use these court documents to keep her behind bars and they cited the fact that she said they tried to kill at least 10 patients, but they fought back. And Nancy, you have to wonder, how did they get away with trying to kill them? And these people survived. They fought back. Well, when you think about it, maybe that's why they preyed on people with Alzheimer's and dementia, because a symptom of that is hallucinations. Maybe if they tried to tell other personnel at the hospital or the nursing home, hey, I was attacked, the nurses would just say, oh, they're hallucinating. You can't believe them. And that's really sad. What a feeling of helplessness these victims,

these patients that lived must have felt. I mean, Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV, AshleyWilcott.com. Have you ever seen anything like it? No. I mean, this is an unbelievable case. And the thing that bothers me so much is, yes, they pick very vulnerable victims. But I believe individuals like this are going to find vulnerable victims, whether it's in an old folks home or in a daycare. Right? whether it's in an old folks home or in a daycare, right? These are criminals and minds that are not going to not prey on people, but rather they will seek out their victims and kill and kill.

And I'm shocked this individual was allowed to get out of jail. I am too. I mean, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us from Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany, I've always said when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. And I say that usually after one violent offense. Because if you've got that in you that you will commit a violent crime on another person, I don't think you can rehab that away. I think that's something in you.

And I'll use this example. Dr. Bethany, say you're walking along out in Hancock Park and you see a little rabbit cross your path. I don't think your instinct is to chase it down and then tear its neck out with your teeth. Your instinct may be to pet it. But that's the difference between you and someone who is prone to commit a violent crime. There's something in them, and I don't think that can change. Do you believe this woman is still a threat? She's just 57 years old. Nancy, she's a threat because she actually has a compulsion to kill. This is not just a crime

of passion, which I still think is always premeditated pretty much. This is something that they thought out over time. It was very compulsive. It was very methodical. I think she will strike again. And even in not an overt way, such as actually committing murder, small types of behaviors that lead up, like are ritualistic around the final act of murder. For instance, sadism. These two were

sadists. Wood was a sadist. And so we know of these victims who died because they murdered them. But what about all the smaller acts of sadism, maybe like hitting them over the head or, you know, tying their clothing too tightly, pushing food down their throat? You know, a lot of stuff must have happened to these victims before they were finally killed. And so Wood is going to have many vulnerable people around her. I think it's so fascinating that the investigator... Wait a minute. You've got to hear something, Bethany. It's exactly what you're saying. Listen to this. These are games that by all accounts were instigated and led by Kathy. They switched patients from room to room, putting them in the wrong rooms to confuse other staff members.

According to co-workers, Gwen and Kathy's antics went far beyond seemingly harmless pranks. Kathy seemed to get a thrill out of stirring up trouble. She would call the husbands and say, do you have any idea what your wife is doing? And then she would talk to the wife and say, do you have any idea what your husband is doing? Planning half-truths among people,

keeping the place in turmoil, keeping the place in drama. She seemed to get a kick out of exerting control over people's lives. When asked if they thought Kathy and Gwen killed five patients, the nurses' aides are divided. Some of the co-workers thought that possibly these murders did occur, and some didn't believe it. They didn't think that they were capable of doing that. Yeah, I don't think they killed five patients either.

I think they killed at least 12 patients. But, hey, that's just me. You're hearing our friends at wicked attraction our little secret i mean circle back to dr bethany marshall changing patients from room to room to confuse patients and staff these old people that are helpless stirring up up trouble, causing a husband, calling a husband, suggesting the wife's having an affair, calling the wife, you know, vice versa, just causing all sorts of drama, planting half-truths among co-workers, and it was all a game to them. What is that? I've never really heard of anything like that, Dr. Bethany. Sadly, Nancy, I have. This is a very core feature of something that we call Cluster B personality style. Cluster B is a grouping of borderline sociopathy and narcissism. These three personality disorders, when they cluster together, what you find,

it usually at the female, that the poison in their mind, they seep into everybody else around them. They love to dump toxic psychological waste on people. Have you ever had someone in your life, Nancy, where whenever you were around them, they just seemed to cause trouble everywhere in your life. And you don't even know how it happened. It just happened at the speed of light. They plant doubt.

They bring negative legal consequences into your life they make you suspicious of your own spouse this is this kind of personality disorder they stir everything wait a minute i've really never been suspicious of david once i broke into his email i thought i was going to pass out my eyes were bleeding it was so boring no i'm not suspicious of david I love him, but no, go ahead. I remember you mentioning that once on air, Nancy. It just cracked me up. But it's true that these people like to push poison into the lives of people around them. And I think it's a part of sadism. I think they're bored. I think they're envious.

I don't think they want other people to be happy. So they keep things stirred up. And I think also these women may have hated men as well. And so to call them the husbands and say your wife's having an affair, and they were also envious of people who had happy relationships, you know, so they're planning a seed of doubt in relationships and people with dementia are very reliant on having a predictable environment, right? Even when we know what sundowners is, when it's no longer light outside and the sun goes down, they start to get confused. So they took their patient's core vulnerability and they preyed upon it. To Levi Page, Catherine is arguably one of the most high-profile U.S. serial killers to get out of prison recently. What do you think she can expect on the outside? Well, Nancy, she is living now in South

Carolina outside of Charlotte, and this is a very high-profile case, Nancy, so you can bet that the tongues will be wagging. She's 57 years old now, and I'm assuming that she would probably if she was smart would lead a very low profile life but who knows a lot of these people they get out of prison and they re-offend even though they were given the chance of a lifetime considering the crimes they committed well true true I mean to Chief Wagner John Wagner joining us from Warner Robins, Chief Wagner, I hope the cops are on her like a cheap suit all over her. If she's so much as jaywalks, I want her back in jail. And I'm sorry it's come to this, but really, police are so thinly distributed. How can they monitor this one woman?

Well, you're correct with that, Nancy. And, you know, I'm sure the parole board will be doing visits with her. But, yeah, local law enforcement would need to know. And that will be always in the back of their ear. Don't you remember the case of J.C. Duggar? Right, right. Do you remember that, Ashley Wilcott? Let me just jog, Chief.

Oh, he's saying he remembers it. This girl had been kidnapped when she was a little girl. By the time the feds finally found her with a convicted criminal that they were supposed to be checking on, he had already built a shed in the backyard, and she had had two children by him. So I'm not relying on home visits by pardon and parole. Please, Ashley, help me. Yeah, no, I completely agree. You also hear stories where sex offenders are living, in fact, close to a school bus stop, right, or a school where they're not supposed to live and

they may be under parole. So it doesn't solve the issue of criminals who are predisposed to the crimes they're committing, which I believe a serial killer is and is not going to just let go of being a serial killer, they are going to continue criminal activity regardless of whether or not someone is checking on them. We wait as justice unfolds. At least your co-defendant is still behind bars. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.