Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MONSTER MOM DROWNS DAUGHTER, 7, WANTED "ALONE TIME"

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The so-called monster mom drowns her daughter to seven years old because she wanted alone time. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. A Nashville mother fed up with motherhood, wanting to be left alone, now accused of drowning her seven-year-old daughter. When EMTs arrive, this is what happens. Henderson police get a 911 call and arrive to find mom Brandi Elliott performing CPR on her seven-year-old daughter along a popular trail. The girl is soaking wet having been pulled from the water. Piper Elliott

Starting point is 00:00:51 is taking by ambulance to a local hospital just before noon. So all of this happens even before lunchtime. Joining me in All-Star panel but straight out to Lauren Conlon, host of Prime Time Crime on YouTube. Lauren, thank you for being with us. Lauren, where did this happen? Nancy, this happened in Hendersonville, Tennessee at Drake's Creek. It's about a two minute walk and they walked over there. The creek is very shallow. So let me understand what I'm hearing. This was actually a walk away from the apartment because when this first became known, many people assumed that the little seven-year-old girl actually drowned in the bathtub. But no, she actually drowned in a shallow part of a lake. So what exactly happened that morning? Listen. It's Saturday morning and seven-year-old Piper joins her mother sitting on the steps

Starting point is 00:01:50 outside their apartment. It's just the two of them. Her father, a disabled Iraqi war vet, is in the hospital. The two set out for a walk along the greenway next to Drake Creek. The 3.9 mile trail is considered an easy route taking about an hour and 11 minutes to complete. But instead of heading home, mom Brandy Elliott makes a gut-wrenching

Starting point is 00:02:11 call to Hendersonville police. She tells them she's doing CPR on her daughter who has drowned in the shallow end of the waterway. Again, an all-star panel with us right now to figure out what happened to this little seven-year-old girl, Piper, to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, renowned chief medical examiner of Tarrant County, that's Dallas-Fort Worth, plenty of business at the morgue there, a lecturer at the esteemed Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Dr. Kendall Crowns. The shallow part of the water, I take that to be three feet and under shallow. It could even be less. It could be less than three feet. So a little girl age seven, normally grown according to growth charts, how tall would she be? Probably about around four foot, a little taller than that. She'd definitely be higher

Starting point is 00:03:12 than that three foot level of water, so well above that creek level. I'm looking at more surrounding that morning. It's Saturday morning. Seven-year-old Piper joins her mom, just the two of them. The father, a disabled Iraqi war vet, is in the hospital. Listen. John Elliott was injured during his time with the Marines and stays home with Piper while Brandy Elliott supports the family with her job at McDonald's. When a complication of his injuries lands John in the ICU, Brandy is left to take care of Piper between shifts. After a week in the hospital, John is stable enough to move out of critical care. Piper is so excited to finally visit her dad, she spends all day drawing pictures to decorate his hospital room. Piper gives her

Starting point is 00:04:01 dad plenty of her famous hugs during the visit before mom says, it's time to go home. So let me understand Lauren calling the dad who has spent a lot of time raising Piper while mom is at work. He's disabled. Yes. He's not there to protect her. It's just her and the mom, right? Correct. Piper and Brandy spent time together during the period that John was in the hospital. But normally, John is the stay-at-home dad. Okay, how did the whole thing start? Listen. Marine veteran John Elliott meets the love of his life, Brandy, in Hendersonville, Tennessee. Within a year, John has proposed and the couple has a big white wedding at Grace Baptist Church. Brandy's a wonderful stepmother to John's son and soon after, the couple welcomes their own child,

Starting point is 00:04:49 Piper. By seven years old, Piper is known for her ability to put a smile on anyone's face. Piper loves to dance, fish with her dad, dress up as Disney princesses, and binge Gordon Ramsay cooking shows. Taking a look at Piper with her dad, I'm just wondering what type of feeling of helplessness or isolation he was feeling in the hospital. He spends every single day with daughter Piper until he lands back in the hospital with a complication due to war injuries. No more Piper. She comes to visit him, giving him all of her drawings and big hugs, and then the two leave. Listen. When Brandy Elliott gets home with Piper from the hospital, Elliott wants some time alone. Elliott tells Piper she'll be back in a few minutes, leaves the

Starting point is 00:05:39 seven-year-old inside their apartment, and sits at the bottom of the stairs leading to their door. Worried about her mom, Piper follows Elliot downstairs and starts talking. Elliot gets up and crosses the street to a greenway along Drake's Creek with Piper following behind her. I can just see that, like little ducks following the mommy duck. Piper's following along behind mom. And why shouldn't she? Joining me, renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, so far, this sounds like a normal

Starting point is 00:06:15 mother-daughter relationship. Now, I guess I'm different. I never want alone time. Once I had the twins, you know, that's what I want. I want our family together as much as we can be. But I'm thinking about this mom and she's the breadwinner in the family. The husband is disabled. I'm sure he's getting some sort of a disability check, but still, that's never enough for a family. So explain to me the alone time phenomenon. What does that mean? You know, Nancy, I have a feeling that from what you've described, she doesn't spend a lot of time with her daughter. The father takes care of the daughter most of the time. And perhaps she, you know, alone time. I mean, like you said, who the heck has alone time when they have a child raised, particularly when you said that the woman was going from work to taking care of the child while he was in the hospital. So this is not a time when any mother that has any motherly feelings inside of her should crave alone time. This is a time when she has to step up and take care of her child out of necessity. So I'm not quite sure what was going through her mind that she thought that this

Starting point is 00:07:34 was a time in her life when she got to be alone, when the family apparently needs more support than that. But generally speaking, Dr. Angie, I'm not familiar. I've never felt my desire to have alone time away from the twins. I just don't feel that. So explain what that means, not just to this mother, Brandy Elliott, but in general alone time. I've got a friend, super smart, started a business, a reload, a reload business relocation, like a big company wants to go from New Jersey to New Mexico. Okay. She built this company where she takes on the whole corporation and moves them, finds them schools, finds them apartments, finds them homes, the whole shebang. Okay. You know what she does for alone time when she goes to the grocery store,

Starting point is 00:08:32 when she's not handling the business that she created and go shopping during that 30 minutes or so walking the grocery aisles, that's her alone time. Okay. So what is the mental need for alone time? I don't have it. Explain it to me. Well, Nancy, there are people who are more introverted than extroverted, and they actually need time all to themselves to recharge. In other words, being around a lot of people wears them out. Perhaps this woman said that she needed alone time because her routine was different and she was having to go and see the husband at the hospital and she needed to be actually alone to recharge her own batteries. And like I said, people that are more introverted than extroverted do require that kind

Starting point is 00:09:26 of time. I'm asking you for a medical opinion because here's another example. I have another friend. Okay. When she gets home, when she gets home from work, she sits in her car with the doors shut and locked in the garage, which is all closed for like 20, 30 minutes before she comes in. All right. I don't know what that is. Doesn't she get hot? Isn't she worried about carbon monoxide poisoning? That said, that's what I'm seeing. See, I just jump out and run in and boots on the ground, right? Everybody's not like that. And I'm asking you not for some vernacular you heard, let's see, at your bridge club, but recharging.

Starting point is 00:10:16 What does it mean to take a mental break? There are people that if they are that are introverts and there are people who are extroverts, people who are extroverts gain their energy from being around a lot of people. They actually get energized from that. OK, so, Nancy, we would describe you as an extrovert. You need that. You don't get tired from being around people. Then there are people. I don't need it, Dr. Angie. I'm perfectly happy

Starting point is 00:10:46 alone. I lived alone for years and years in New York. I never even thought about a husband or children. Didn't even cross my mind. Now that I've got them, it's wonderful. I don't need that. Let me think of some other way to pose this question. What about decompression? Does that ring a bell when your mind has to decompress from one situation, one stressful situation to another situation then to watching the child, to going to the hospital. It was too much for this woman. So she needs, she literally needs no stimuli in order for her brain to rest. And as you said, decompress. She needs a lack of stimulus.

Starting point is 00:11:41 That's why she had to walk outside and sit on the porch. Unfortunately, that's why she had to walk outside and sit on the porch. Unfortunately, that's why she walked down to the lake and her little girl didn't understand this. So she followed her down there, but she needed no stimuli so that her brain could rest. Is that some sort of a condition, Dr. Angie Arnold? It could be. It's a condition that we definitely see in people that are what we call on the autism spectrum. They cannot take in too much stimuli. They have to rest. They mirror what other people do.

Starting point is 00:12:12 This lady does not have autism. You asked me, are there conditions in which this exists? Yes, there are. One of those conditions is the autism spectrum. Okay. I didn't say she has autism, but that is a condition in which this exists. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Ben Powers joining me, guys. Renowned criminal defense attorney. You can find him at LegalPowers.com. Ben, serious question.

Starting point is 00:12:45 Could burnout be a defense? Of course it's not. I'll just give you the answer right now. Burnout. I'm burned out. So I killed my child. Yeah, that's not going to work. But could some derivative of that burnout?

Starting point is 00:13:01 I mean, the woman works at McDonald's all day long. Have you seen the way some customers act at McDonald's? We're always seeing videos of them jumping over the counter. If you don't give them their condiment, climbing through the, forcing themselves, like ejecting themselves out of the, through the car, from the car, through the drive-thru. I mean, stress, right? Because you're dealing with the public. Does that and then comes home. But typically the husband is there taking care of Piper, right? So during this period, while he is in the hospital, Iraqi war vet. She's working and taking care of Piper. Burnout ain't gonna cut it. Okay. For lack of a better phrase, but could it be spun out? Uh, you know, like rumple stilts

Starting point is 00:13:56 can just spin out that straw and get gold. Is there a way to spin that out to a defense? So you're going to have to anchor that to a mental health condition to show that she essentially just snapped. Because to be able to establish an insanity defense. I'm sorry, you made me choke on my tea. Did Ben Powers, who's won a lot of cases in court, did he actually just say snapped? That's a show on oxygen. Snapped. snapped okay that's not a real defense i don't care what oxygen tells you i snapped i snap about 50 times a day but it is not a defense to murder ben so you can't snap on me because i know that's not a defense well so snap to a pronounced degree to where you disassociate you become delusional you don't appreciate what's going on in that moment. Not SNAP as in a frustration about the day, but SNAP truly, you have an out of body experience almost to where you don a serious medical condition or mental health condition or mental health defect. And because of that mental health defect,

Starting point is 00:15:10 you don't appreciate the seriousness of your current actions in that moment. So if the strain of her day somehow exacerbated a mental health condition to where she snapped in the sense of disassociated from the situation while she was doing what she did, then that could be the grounds for an insanity defense in this situation. That's a lot of woulda, coulda, shoulda, a lot of ifs, buts, maybes. Listen. When Brandy Elliott gets home with Piper from the hospital, Elliott wants some time alone. Elliott tells Piper she'll be back in a few minutes, leaves the seven-year-old inside their apartment, and sits at the bottom of the stairs leading to their door. Worried about her mom, Piper follows Elliot downstairs and starts talking. Elliot gets

Starting point is 00:15:55 up and crosses the street to a greenway along Drake's Creek with Piper following behind her. The mother allegedly tells police she was having a bad day and Piper would not give her what she wanted. Time alone. Time alone. Now, Piper's dead. And according to reports, her mother, Brandy Elliott, compared her daughter to a, let me make sure I've got this right. A large mouthed bass in the water. Listen. Seven-year-old Piper continues following behind her mom on the trail and asks where they're going several times. Then Elliot grabs Piper by the wrist and leads her down to the creek.

Starting point is 00:16:37 Elliot holds Piper's head under the water and tells her to be quiet. When Piper finally stops struggling, Elliot pulls her from the water and starts CPR and calls 911. Piper is rushed to TriStar Centennial Medical Center, but it's too late. The little girl dies and mom, Brandi Elliott, is immediately arrested for murder. Okay, these comments didn't help at all. Lauren Cullen joining me, investigative reporter and star of Primetime Crime on YouTube. Lauren, apparently the mom stated her daughter was like a large mouth bass under the water and that she held her mother, Brandy Elliott, the so-called monster mom, holds her daughter under the water, Piper, until she, quote, felt her bubbling. I'm getting this from court documents. What can you tell me, Lauren Conlon? Yes, in addition to that, Nancy,

Starting point is 00:17:33 it absolutely disgusts me. I mean, I have an eight-year-old daughter. I can't even imagine. But the reports actually say that Brandy tried to shush her daughter as she was holding her down. She actually was like, shush, shush, shush. She wanted to get her to stop making noise, stop struggling. And so I believe

Starting point is 00:17:53 once she realized Piper was gone, I'm obviously not a doctor, but she snapped out of it. She realized what she did and then she called 911. Hold on just a moment. You, Lauren Conlon and Ben Powers keep bringing up the verb snap, using it as some sort of defense. You claimed, you stated, Lauren Conlon, and I just want to be very clear about this, that when she, after she snapped and she came out of it, came out of what? She told her daughter, I want alone time. Go away. Leave me alone. She comes home from the hospital. She's driving perfectly fine. She's talking to the daughter.

Starting point is 00:18:33 Daughter, they're communicating. She decides to go for a walk. Everything's fine until she quote, gets fed up. Her words, not my words. That is not snapping. And then you come out of it. I'm fed up right now because none of this is a defense for drowning your daughter, your seven year old daughter, and comparing her to a large mouth bass. I agree. I agree. I just think that when something is so horrific like this, that we don't know what else to think except for something came over this woman. Something happened inside her brain that didn't happen before. It's just so horrific. That's how I think of it. something came over this woman. If that were a defense, everybody in Rikers right now would be walking free because something came over them. That's why I'm not a lawyer. I remember a rapist told me he broke into a home and the woman came out and went, Oh, who are you? And quote, my little nature got up and he raped her. Something just

Starting point is 00:19:46 came over him. Yes. An erection. That's what happened. And now she's dead. Okay. Something came over me. That's not a defense. Even Ben Powers, veteran trial lawyer, cannot spin. Something came over that woman into a defense. Ben Powers, please tell me you cannot. Well, so to dovetail off what Lauren was saying, she's the type of juror that I would want a trial because she's able to understand that this is so unhuman, so counter to being a child's mother, that there must be something wrong because there's no other logical explanation other than there's a disassociation. There was some kind of disconnect by the mother in that moment because it's so

Starting point is 00:20:29 horrific to think that you're capable, capable of this. So, okay. You see a woman, I guess, Ben Powers charged with murder and you immediately play the mom card with the jury. I know where you're coming from. Did you hear that, Lauren Collin? I hope you're proud because he wants you, the defense attorney wants you on the jury. You know what? Let me go to Julie Gates joining us. Major law enforcement crime scene investigator, forensic science program coordinator, instructor at Southern Crescent College, Julie Gates. Thank you for being with us.

Starting point is 00:21:09 Could you explain the evidence in this case? Am I the only one that believes that snap and something came over her is not a defense? I mean, think about it, Julie Gates, how long it takes, which I'm going to have to get from Dr. Kendall Crowns, how long it typically takes for someone to die of drowning. That's how long, you know, Julie, you've heard this argued to many a jury. Intent can be formed in the twinkling of the moment, the blink of an eye, the time it takes you hold a gun and pull the trigger that fast. It does not require some long drawn out plan such as poisoning someone over a period of weeks or months. It can be formed just like that. She held the child under the water

Starting point is 00:21:59 until she was, quote, bubbling, told her to, quote, her words, be quiet and that the child looked like a large mouth bass under the water. That's plenty of time to form intent. And she clearly knew what she was doing. Help me, Julie. I agree with you totally. I think she knew what she was doing the whole time. And if I'm the doctor can correct me on this, but I think it takes anywhere from three to five minutes to drown. So you at least have three to five minutes. She's holding her under that water.

Starting point is 00:22:30 I am not a parent myself, but I know you just don't have time. I have a needy dog. I know it's not a comparison to a child, but this dog requires attention from the time I get up in the morning to the time I get go to bed at night. So, I mean, the same as with with kids. And like I said, I'm not a mom, but my mom had three children and I'm an identical twin. So I know she had it. I know she had. Do you have to be a mom to understand stress in your job with major law enforcement, crime scene, investigator, you have a lot of stress because if you screw up, the wrong person could go to jail or nobody goes to jail. The right person doesn't go to jail. So that's a lot of stress.

Starting point is 00:23:17 It doesn't matter what the stress is. Stress equals stress. It's a common denominator with all of us. But do you ever want to just strangle your dog and kill him? Nope. I sure don't. I love her to death. Before we get too deep into your feelings about your dog, I want you to hear how this mother, if she can be called that, changes her story. Speaking with Hendersonville police after her arrest, Brandy Elliott says she was having a rough day and Piper would not give her what she wanted, time alone. Elliott says she

Starting point is 00:23:50 held Piper under the water, quote, like a large mouth bass until there were bubbles. Elliott claims she then realized what she had done, started CPR and called for help. Dr. Angela Arnold, did you hear her state that I held her underwater like a large mouth bass until she was bubbling? In other words, the bubbles coming out of her daughter's mouth and then they quit because she had a, quote, rough day and because she was, quote, fed up. So Nancy, if I may have a minute to explain something to the viewers, there are five reasons that have been identified by someone named Dr. Phil Resnick, who's a famous psychiatrist. There are five motives or reasons for someone to kill their child, and that's called filicide. One of the reasons is what two of the guests have been describing, and that is acute psychosis. There can be there. And that is what they are describing as snapped. Okay. If the mother has been under a tremendous amount of stress, if she also has a history of a mental

Starting point is 00:25:00 illness, she can have an acute psychosis that takes over because of that stress. She can be having, typically they're having command hallucinations that tell her to hurt the child. That is one of the five reasons for filicide. The other ones aren't appropriate here. An unwanted child, fatal maltreatment, altruism. In other words, you think the child will be better off dead than alive and spousal revenge. That's the rarest reason for filicide. In this case, as two guests have described, the SNAP, she could have become acutely psychotic. And as we've said on many other shows before, people can come in and out of psychosis. So she described, we know that she was stressed this day.

Starting point is 00:25:52 Something stressed her out. We also know that she has a history of a mental illness. So could she have acutely become psychotic because the little girl would not leave her alone and she drowned her. She was asked in court, as was her lawyer, do you want a mental competency or insanity test? The lawyer and she, the mom, said no. She has no history of depression other than seven years before when she had postpartum. There was no hallucination, which is one of your reasons that you cite for killing your child. She had no mental illness. She had never complained of mental illness.

Starting point is 00:26:34 She has been observed by the court. No mental illness. There was no altruistic reason, which is one of the reasons you mentioned. And there was no spousal revenge. To go forward and advance the theory that you are stating acute psychosis, a jury would have to believe that she went into psychosis immediately when her daughter wanted attention and then was out of that psychosis 20 minutes later when EMTs arrived. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Starting point is 00:27:16 Henderson police get a 911 call and arrive to find mom Brandi Elliott performing CPR on her seven-year-old daughter along a popular trail. The girl is soaking wet having been pulled from the water. Piper Elliott is taking by ambulance to a local hospital just before noon. Brandy Elliott reportedly tells her daughter Piper to be quiet as she holds her underwater quote like a large mouth bass. And what about the dad lying in the hospital, the Iraqi war vet? Listen. Marine veteran John Elliott meets the love of his life, Brandy, in Hendersonville, Tennessee.

Starting point is 00:27:57 Within a year, John has proposed and the couple has a big white wedding at Grace Baptist Church. Brandy is a wonderful stepmother to John's son, and soon after, the couple welcomes their own child, Piper. By seven years old, Piper is known for her ability to put a smile on anyone's face. Piper loves to dance, fish with her dad, dress up as Disney princesses, and binge Gordon Ramsay cooking shows. John Elliott was injured during his time with the Marines and stays home with Piper while Brandy Elliott supports the family with her job at McDonald's. When a complication of his injuries lands John in the ICU, Brandy is left to take care of Piper between shifts. After a week in the hospital, John is stable enough to move out of critical care. Piper is so excited to finally visit her dad, she spends

Starting point is 00:28:42 all day drawing pictures to decorate his hospital room. Take a listen to what he has to say. This is from our friends at WTVF. They came into my room and told me that she'd drown, that her mom's going to jail. I'm proud of the little girl I raised. I'm just sad she's gone. I miss her. Speaking with Hendersonville police after her arrest, Brandi Elliott says she was having a rough day and Piper would not give her what she wanted, time alone. Elliott says she held Piper under the water, quote, like a large mouth bass until there were bubbles. Elliott claims she then realized what she had done, started CPR and called for help. Joining me in All-Star panel, but back to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner,

Starting point is 00:29:28 Tarrant County. Dr. Crowns, I not just anecdotally, but statistically have learned that very often when mothers kill their children, it is through drowning. Have you observed that? Yes, I have. Over the course of my career, I've seen several instances where mothers have drowned their children, also drug them and stabbed them as well. But drowning is a fairly common one. You know, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, I've noticed that, and this is also statistical, I can follow this

Starting point is 00:29:58 up with Julie Gates. Dr. Kendall-Crowns, I've noticed that when women commit murder, very often it's a, quote, soft kill. In other words, there's not stabbing. I mean, sometimes there is, but typically there's not. There's not stabbing. There's not shooting. There's a lot of poisoning, a lot of drowning, a lot of suffocation, but not like clubbing the victim dead, such as Ted Bundy did in the Chi Omega house. Have you noticed that as well? I learned this before I observed it when I was reading Method and Assessment of Homicide and Suicide. There is absolutely a

Starting point is 00:30:41 statistical correlation between drowning and mothers that kill. I don't understand it. I'm not a shrink, but I know it to be true. And you're saying you've witnessed that as well. That's correct. Usually males have a higher level of brutality when they kill an individual and females don't. So especially with the individuals where they kill their own child, we don't see the extreme examples of violence. Although occasionally with individuals with mental illness, there will be a high level of mutilation and things of that nature. But typically it's a drowning or poisoning. How long would it take for a child to drown or anyone? So in this situation with the mom pushing her underwater,

Starting point is 00:31:28 child's struggling. So because she's struggling, she's going to use up oxygen quicker. So she may begin, her mind will actually become starved of oxygen and will force her to breathe. That could happen after about 30 seconds to at the far outside three minutes.

Starting point is 00:31:46 Once your mind forces you to breathe, you inhale all that water in, and then you vomit the water back out, you inhale it again, and you pass out in about 30 seconds. And then after the five-minute mark, you're pretty much brain dead. So you're looking at a total process from start to finish about anywhere from three to five minutes. Dr. Kendall Crowns, what would the drowning victim experience during the drowning? Well, they would be conscious.

Starting point is 00:32:11 They would be afraid because they're forced underwater. They'd be trying to hold their breath while struggling to get back above the surface to get to air. And then finally, their brain is going to force them to breathe in. And at that point, you're going to inhale all that oxygen and gag and begin vomiting it back out and then go into unconsciousness. So it'd be a lot of fear for about that three to five minute range. Three to five minutes. And what happens to the human brain when they're deprived of oxygen?

Starting point is 00:32:42 It basically, when the brain's deprived of oxygen, the brain will want oxygen, so it will force you to breathe, of course. And as it can't get oxygen, it will make you go unconscious. Piper's father, John Elliott, a disabled Iraq War veteran, says, I will miss my baby girl forever. Not the first time a child has been murdered by

Starting point is 00:33:10 mom. Of course, she's innocent under our jurisprudence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Will a jury by defense that mommy snapped after she said she was, quote, fed up and had a, quote, bad day and held her daughter under the water like a, quote, large mouth bass. That will be up to a jury. And then and only then, if they return a guilty verdict, will she be, in fact, a killer. It's a technical legal term of art. Will a jury buy it? I don't know, but I do know this is not the first time a child has been drowned at the hands of their own mom. For instance, let's take Esperanza Harding. Esperanza Harding is trying to enjoy a bath when her eighth-month-old son Mateo starts crying inconsolably from his playpen in Harding's hotel room.

Starting point is 00:34:06 Tired of his incessant screams, Harding drowns Mateo in her drawn bath, then sends a picture of the baby floating face down to her boyfriend. The boyfriend comes to the hotel room and helps Harding shove Mateo's body in a backpack, then suggests she throw the bag in a dumpster like she's just taking out the trash. Wow, did you hear that, Dr. Angie? Esperanza Harding drowned her child because he, quote, ruined her bath. Again, Nancy, it can these. First of all, it's different when it happens to an eight month old baby versus a seven year old child.

Starting point is 00:34:42 The conditions can be different. This woman could have been suffering from some sort of postpartum depression. The baby's under a year old. She could have also become acutely psychotic. She may have not wanted the child. We don't know, right? But these are things that mothers do to their child when they're not well and when they are very stressed. Apparently, she was taking a bath to rest. The baby bothered her. We may say pushed her over the edge, but what we do know is she was very stressed. Then there is Karina Mustafa. Listen. Karina Mustafa comes out to the front porch where her husband is playing with their toddler and immediately starts yelling.

Starting point is 00:35:26 Dad let the baby play in a plant he knocked over and the toddler is covered in potting soil. Mustafa scoops up the child and runs to the bathroom, locking the door behind her. When Mustafa's husband manages to open the door, he finds his wife holding their child under the water. Dad performs CPR and the child is stabilized at the hospital. Karina Mustafa, charged with aggravated child abuse. Well, Dr. Angie, the baby did it again. This time, the baby knocked over a potted plant and got muddy. So, the mom just tried to kill it.

Starting point is 00:35:59 I guess that's postpartum depression. Nancy, I know that you and I have often disagreed on this, okay? And I think that we always will. And yes, I think that there are evil people in the world, and I do believe that it is often driven by some form of mental illness, these acts that these women perform. And then there's the mother of all child killers who kills both of her little boys because she wanted sex. Listen. Yes, ma'am. There's a lady who come up that door and she, some guy jumped into a red light with her car with her two kids in it and he took off and she got out of the car here at our Ohio. And he's got the kids?

Starting point is 00:36:45 Yes, ma'am, in her car. I don't, and she's real hysterical, and I just thought I needed to call the law and get them down here. And the car is, we need to know something. We trying to ask her now. A Mazda Protege. What color was it? A burgundy Mazda Protege. Get them going, Pam.

Starting point is 00:37:03 I got two kids. Okay. Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children, Michael, three, and Alexander, 14 months. The vehicle, a 1990 Mazda driven by Smith, was located late Thursday afternoon in Lake John D. Long near Union. To Lauren Conlon, investigative reporter, Lauren Conlon, that's how a lot of women get away with murder. Because it's very hard to imagine. When I think of my mom, I think about nothing but love and sacrifice. What she did to get us three through and put us through college and put us through grad school.

Starting point is 00:37:49 And to this day, sacrificing herself for us. When you see a woman sitting at the defense counsel table, you know that the child is dead. You can't help but think of your own mother in your mind. That's how Top Mom walked, according to me. But Lauren Conlon, is there any evidence in this case, other than postpartum depression, that this woman, Brandi Elliott, had after her child was born of mental illness. Nancy, August 19th, Brandy Elliott appeared to bash against the wall of her jail cell allegedly, and then dive head first from the top bunk to the concrete cell floor. Again, I'm not a doctor, but is that mental illness? it appears that she wanted to harm herself. So we could consider that perhaps.

Starting point is 00:38:45 OK, I appreciate your civilian diagnosis of a woman who wants to get out of general population and a woman who has no history at all of mental illness now behind bars. And can I point out also, Lauren Collin, while you're talking about that let's talk about her reaction when she found out she could get the death penalty take a listen at a bond hearing Brandi Elliott sobs when she is informed that she could possibly face the death penalty Elliott tells the judge she is not currently seeing a mental health professional but previously obtained medication for postpartum depression when Piper was two. Elliott says she lost it, similarly to what happened this time and could not sleep. Elliott was treated at TriStar Centennial Medical Center,

Starting point is 00:39:36 the same hospital where Piper is pronounced dead five years later. Is the death penalty on the table for the fed up mom who held her seven-year-old daughter's head underwater until she drowned. Piper's family starts a memorial along a greenway for the little girl and want to turn the area into Piper's pathway to honor her memory. We wait as justice unfolds. But now we remember American hero, Marine Interdiction Agent Mikkel Maceda, U.S. Department of Homeland Security, shot and killed in the line of duty. Maceda served with U.S. Customs and Border Protection over seven years. Survived by a grieving daughter, parents, and a sister. American hero, Marine Interdiction Agent,

Starting point is 00:40:34 Mikkel O. Maceda. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MONSTER MOM DROWNS DAUGHTER, 7, WANTED "ALONE TIME"

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