Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - More clues in Tampa serial killer probe; Did lawsuit loser kill attorney? Odd 911 call after murder!

Episode Date: October 27, 2017

Tampa police hope new security video will help identify a person of interest in a series of street shooting deaths in the Florida city. Nancy Grace looks at the suspected serial killer case with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, WFLA-TV reporter Meredyth Censullo, and co-host Alan Duke. Reporter Scott Kimbler joins Grace and her experts to discuss the shooting death of Kansas City lawyer Tom Pickert. Grace also listens to a series of unusual 911 calls connected to the stabbing death of an Ohio teacher.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. We will hunt this son of a bitch down until we find him. The three victims gunned down less than half a mile apart. I can't believe my son is gone. Tampa's mayor doing what he can to reassure the public saying that they've added a thousand streetlights to the Seminole Heights neighborhood and that they won't stop until that killer is caught. Nobody comes into our house and does this. Not now, not ever. Authorities pouring over, raining surveillance video for clues,

looking at this person of interest walking alone, wearing a hood on the night of the first killing. I need that Seminole Heights community to stand up and I need them to point out who that man is. You guys go hunt him down and bring his head to me. Fear of a serial killer is paralyzing a Florida community. As it stands right now, three dead within 1,000 feet of each other. Joining me right now, Meredith Censulo with WFLA-TV. On the scene, Meredith, what do we know now? We're still looking for answers.

All we know is that three younger adults were killed. They were shot all in the evening during weekdays near a bus stop in the neighborhood of Seminole Heights, which is about five minutes from downtown Tampa. We do have Tampa police out in force throughout the neighborhood. They've also pulled in law enforcement agencies from throughout the Tampa Bay area to patrol. And the mayor here very worked up. He wants answers and he's very angry that someone is terrorizing our area like this because it's like a phantom came into this neighborhood. Someone is shooting people and disappearing into thin air. One of those victims was shot within blocks of one of those heightened police patrols. Officers actually heard the shot,

ran to try to help. And when they arrived, a young autistic man was laying there dead. And we just don't have any answers. Right now, what Tampa police have done, they are calling for all surveillance video from anyone's home in the neighborhood, whether they think they've captured something on camera or not. They want all of that, and they are literally watching these videos in real time just to look for anything. Right now, the only thing that's been released

is one video from the night of the first murder, and on that video, you can see what appears to be a man walking down a street. We don't know who that man is. There is a reward for information to anyone that can lead them to this man. But at this point, that's the only person of interest there is in this case. And we don't even know if that person was involved in these murders. Take a listen to the morning roll call at the police department.

We're going to get this son of a bitch. You heard me say it the other day. We're going to hunt this son of a bitch down until we catch him. And it's going to be you guys. And it's going to be great police work doing what you guys do every day. Every day. This guy is not going to win. He's not taking over this neighborhood. He's not taking over these streets. You guys go hunt him down and bring his head to me. All right? 22-year-old Benjamin Mitchell, dead. 32-year-old Monica Hoffa, dead. 20-year-old Anthony Neboa, dead.

All of them, we believe, victims of the so-called Tampa serial killer. When will it end? How did it start? Are there victims preceding this to Cheryl McCollum? Do you think it's feasible that there have been other victims of the same guy that are not connected that occurred before these three? I absolutely believe he has attempted something before, whether it was an armed robbery to see how it went or whether he used a knife the first time. I don't think there's any question he had something prior to these events, no doubt. Every morning, Tampa police watching over children as they wait at their school bus stops.

City workers have cleared away debris from alleys. Burned out streetlights have been replaced. It's going to make it harder for anyone to hide in the shadows but this guy was caught on video if it's the right guy and there were lights and there was video surveillance. Tampa Police Chief Brian Dugan released new video last night showing this person of interest and an odd habit this person seems to have, repeatedly flipping the smartphone with the right hand like a nervous habit. Listeners can see the new video in this story that accompanies our podcast on Nancy's website, CrimeOnline.com. Here's Chief Dugan.

And then you're going to see his hand, his right hand. He appears to flip his phone, and it's significant, we think, but it could be a habit. Maybe many people do it. So just watch this and work through me with this, and we want everyone at home to start looking at this video and tell us what they think of it. You see, he takes the phone.

I think it's a he, but it could be anybody, out of the right front pocket. Watch his right hand. The flip of the phone, I think it's a he, but it could be anybody, out of the right front pocket. Watch his right hand. The flip of the phone. Now it looks as if he's looking at his phone or her. This is all before the shooting. And you can see where some of the video is not clear. But in my opinion, if you knew who this person was, if that were me in that video, I have to believe that my neighbors would be able to identify me. Okay?

Now, this is important. The next video clip that you see is going to be very important, and you're going to see why we think this is a person of interest. I am completely comfortable in calling this is a person of interest. I am completely comfortable in calling this person a person of interest. Now we have video of this same person that we believe is now running from the area. And this person is running just seconds after the murder. We believe that this person has ties to this neighborhood, and we want to speak to them. So let's look at when you think about this person running. Why are they running? There are probably, I've come up with four reasons

why this person is running. One, they may be late for dinner. Two, they're out exercising. Three, they heard gunshots. And number four, they just murdered Benjamin Mitchell. Outside Faith Baptist Church, there is one of those signs that you can change the letters on, and it says, do not murder. Why, to Joseph Scott Morgan and to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, first to you, Dr. Bober, are people arguing this isn't a serial killer, Dr. Bober? Well, it's based on the number of victims.

And, Nancy, in these cases, we want to look at commonalities and patterns. You know, it's probably easier in this day and age to catch a killer like this than it would be, say, you know, when you had the son of Sam where he was caught pretty much accidentally by a parking ticket that was left on his car. With all the surveillance video and all the electronics out there, there's a much higher chance that something captured this guy and he will, you know, be apprehended. To you, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, weigh in. This is my thing, Nancy, and this is very important. I want to know what the ballistics are in this case because that's going to show us some kind of pattern, some kind of connectivity relative to the striations on the recovered rounds.

That is, if they have actually recovered rounds in every single case, I think that they probably have, and extracted from the bodies at autopsy. I want to know if those rounds match up, because that's going to tie it back to a single weapon. And that's going to be very important moving forward. Again, that shows this connectivity through and through, and the pattern that the doctor was just referring Mitchell Monica Hoffa Anthony Neboa the only common thread the only connector between them Cheryl McCollum was the route nine bus and that's the bus that goes north south on a route from the University of South Florida to downtown Tampa and back day in day out I'm wondering Cheryl if this guy was not on the bus with them and then gets off at the stop and then shoots them.

Or is he waiting, waiting in the shadows behind trees, bushes, fences, structures for somebody to get off so we can just pick him off like a sniper, Cheryl? Well, he certainly is familiar with that area in the routine and the bus schedule. There's no doubt about that. So again, Nancy, what's very clear to me is the person that's on video has been shown every night on the nightly news. It's all over social media. Whoever that person is has not come forward. Whoever that person's family is has not come forward. Friends have not come forward.

That tells me other people have a sense of who this could also be. You know what's interesting, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, this video of what appears to be a man wearing light-colored pants and a dark hoodie over his head is walking alone through the neighborhood, and he is glancing at a cell phone. You can see the cell phone light up when he touches it. What kind of person is that that guns somebody down, then walks off and starts checking their messages? Someone who is absolutely cold-blooded and absolutely has no remorse for their actions.

But again, you point out something else, you know, a cell phone, again, there's another way that this person could potentially be tracked is by their cell phone. It's most likely someone that lives or at least feels comfortable in that geographical area. So I think that there's a lot of clues here that could potentially lead to this person's apprehension. Meredith Censulo, my fear is if I don't want the killer to do anything else, but if the killer doesn't do anything else and no one comes forward, Meredith Censulo, WFLA-TV, how can he be caught? You know, we've seen this in so many cold cases where no one talks for years. No one talks and

secrets are kept. And I think that there is definitely a fear in this community that that will happen. I know right now people in the neighborhood are not only scared, but now they're getting angry. You hear it from our mayor, you know, I want his head. He is ticked off, you know. People want to know what's happening. And, you know, now I believe that Tampa police, although they haven't come out and said this directly, it's been implied they're going back and looking at other cases, you know, other shootings that have occurred, maybe not in Seminole Heights. But is there anything to link those shootings with what's occurred here? Yeah, it's at this point, unless this happens again, which we all hope it doesn't. But the only thing to do is look at the existing evidence and look at other cases that have not been solved and see if there's any links there. But you're right. If someone knows something, it's very unlikely that it's only this person that knows what's going on.

We do believe it is someone that is very comfortable in the neighborhood. Given the fact that he's disappeared into thin air, the third case, as I mentioned, police officers heard it happen. They were in the neighborhood with their saturated patrols, and there was nothing found, no evidence. The guy escaped. You know what's interesting? Let me throw this to you, Cheryl McCollum.

I keep looking at the video over and over and over, and I think it's a male. Serial killers, not always, but are typically a white male. And you can very often tell by the race of the victims because serial killers usually kill within their own race. But here, that's not true because you have caucasians and african-americans so i'm looking at it and i can't tell if it's the lighting and i hate to call it but it looks like a light-skinned person to me because they're walking away they keep keep walking. They keep walking. They pass a tree. They're walking along, you know, parked cars. They pass a tree and they're a little hidden

behind the foliage and they come out from behind the tree. And right then it looks like a light skinned face. But I can't tell if the person is white or not. I can't tell. Well, Nancy, there's another piece of evidence that I'm certain that the police are on right this minute, and that's the actual bullet, the projectile. So he had to load that weapon. There could be a fingerprint. There could be other evidence that is really unique, not just about the trajectory or the striations, but there's other things that Bullitt

can tell them to narrow this down. So for example, let's say it's a very unusual weapon that recently was stolen from somewhere. They may be able to connect him to a burglary. They may be able to connect him to a purchase of a weapon. There's a multitude of things going on at the exact same time with this person, not just the video and not just the cell phone pinging. They're doing all of the above. Nancy, go ahead, Joe Scott. Nancy, something just occurred to me that is rather troubling. I'd like to also direct this at Cheryl as well.

When you were referring to him looking at that phone, I'm not saying that this is what he was doing. Looking at a news account. Let's just consider this for a moment. I think he was looking at a news account. Well, yeah saying that this is what he was doing. Looking at a news account. Let's just consider this for a moment. I think he was looking at a news account. Yeah, that's what this is going to. I'm wondering, I am wondering, Nancy, if this guy is not receiving some kind of thrill off of himself in the news and seeing this in real time. And there have been documented cases of serialized events where individuals really,

really get juiced out of this idea of committing these horrible acts and then seeing how this impacts their community. And a reporter that's on with us had mentioned this specifically that this guy knows this neighborhood. And I don't know what kind of animosity that an individual might have, but I think that it's really compelling here is this guy waiting. He kind of absorbs, you know, all of the impact, the initial impact until it builds up again. And then he has to go out and shoot again, almost like a thrill, thrill killing. And I'm really wondering if that's something we're not looking at. He's getting that because I can tell you, you know, as a reporter, our station has somebody now parked in the neighborhood 24-7, you know, because we want to be there if something happens.

And, you know, so he's, if that's what he wants, that's what he's getting. Because all of us, all of the local stations are doing the same thing. You know, the other day, I was the one that was sent to sit there and wait, you know, wait for the morning. And I was by myself. And I got to be honest with you, I was frightened. I specifically chose a church parking lot that backed up to a busy road and not to be, you know, make fun of it or anything. But I thought, you know, at least if the vehicle is backed up to a busy road, I have witnesses if something happens. I was actually watching something on the news that really troubled me.

I mean, it scared me down. It just scared me. There was a reporter interviewing a gentleman in front of his home. And he was in full face. And he was talking about how scared he was and all these things. And I'm thinking, this guy lives in this neighborhood. There is no way on God's green earth that I would appear on camera to demonstrate how bold or fearless or anything I was at this point in time, particularly if this guy is looking to receive a thrill out of terrorizing

people. It's just, it's horrible. Absolutely horrible. Hey Nancy, that's something I tried to allude to. We spoke yesterday. I believe he will reach out to the media.

I believe that's part of his thing. If you think of Zodiac, he gave himself a nickname. Son of Sam gave himself a nickname. I think he might have even filmed what he did. And you think that may be because we see the cell phone? Absolutely. You think that could have been what he was looking at playing it back? No question.

If you watch what he's doing, his thumb is just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. It might have been a series of photographs. It might be something. But to me, there's a great possibility, and I'm telling you, the media will be involved. He wants it. Dr. Daniel Bober, help me get a profile on this guy. Well, you know, Nancy, I agree with what a lot of your guests are saying. I mean, this is clearly someone who gets gratification from the attention of these crimes. And, you know,

with the proliferation of social media over the last 10 years, it's even more pronounced. You know, you do something now and it's all over the world in seconds. And so it's very possible that while he was on his phone, he was looking at pictures. He could have been doing any number of things. But, you know, these serial killers very often, they, you know, have an axe to grind. They are very often people who feel marginalized and inadequate. And the only way they could feel powerful is to fill that void by committing violence towards others, and it's the ultimate act of control. The tip line 800-873-TIPS, T-I-P-S, there is a $25,000 reward. Our investigation would not be possible without our partners who make our SiriusXM 132 program possible.

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This is what we know right now. Tom Pickard found murdered outside his home in Kansas City. The 39-year-old's wife was at home and found him dead on the front porch. Oh, my stars, I feel so bad for her. Police hunting the killer, who witnesses say sped away from the scene in a white Chevy van. The van was registered to a guy named David Jungerman, J-U-N-G-E-R-M-A-N, who was a defendant. That's who you accuse of wrongdoing. It could be a civil defendant, which is often called a respondent or a criminal defendant in a case. Now, this guy, the lawyer, Tom, Tom Pickard, had represented a homeless man. The homeless man was suing Youngerman for shooting him and causing him to lose part of his leg.

So the homeless guy was shot and lost, actually lost part of his leg. For the rest of his life, it's gone. So the lawyer, this guy, now dead, a father, 39-year-old husband and dad, is dead? He's dead? He won the case for the homeless guy, and it resulted in Youngerman having to pay 5.75 million dollars in damages Pickard found murdered just outside his home in Brookside at 8 a.m on a Wednesday morning to crime scene investigator director of the cold case institute Cheryl McCollum analyze first of all we're going to want to know what weapon was used in this latest murder.

Is it the same type caliber that was used when he shot the homeless man? We know in that incident it was an AK-47. We're going to also want to process that van. There's going to be latent prints. Do they only belong to this particular suspect or do they belong to someone else? They're also going to go into his home. They're belong to this particular suspect or they belong to someone else. They're also going to go into his home. They're going to get his computers. They're going to see what he was texting about, what he was

posting about, what he was angry about. Because again, there's 5.7 million reasons motive here. Well, I know this. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, I know this. At 8 a.m., that is not a random killing. You don't wake up at 7 o'clock, have a cup of hot tea, and then grab your.38,

grab your.9 on the way out the door. That's not how that goes down. That was planned. You're absolutely right. This is another curious thing. It appears that, obviously, that this is a targeting event. Keep in mind, the gentleman that has been killed here had just walked his kids to school. And then upon returning, upon returning home, the wife reports that she heard a single shot, a single shot that was focused on this

parent, on this individual, apparently focused well enough that he dropped this individual dead out in front of the home so there's a lot of things coming into play here as far as targeting goes a specific individual and your old lawyer tom pickard from walking his children to school to dr daniel bober forensic psychiatrist dr bober of course my legal career my whole legal career was spent in public service first as a law clerk to a judge, then with the feds, then as a violent crime prosecutor in inner city Atlanta. However, many lawyers I dealt with that handled civil cases, this was a civil case, the homeless guy was suing for money, Said they'd rather do a criminal case than a civil. I remember one of my best friends, Cheryl, you know the story, Renee Rockwell was handling a divorce between a very, very wealthy couple in Atlanta. And she would come over and stay at my pathetic little place, Cheryl, during the divorce trial because she was afraid the husband might take a shot at her. Because people get that crazy during divorces and lawsuits over money.

I always said I couldn't stomach civil lawyering. I'd rather try a serial killer than work on a divorce case or a med mal case or a case like this. People get crazy, Dr. Daniel Bober, in these civil cases over money. You're absolutely right, Nancy. In fact, it's been my own experience, especially in these child custody cases, there is so much rage that I would rather be involved as an expert in a murder case than absolutely in any kind of child custody case or any case where there's large amounts of money. The tensions are so high and there's so much anger that sometimes all this expressed emotion boils over into violence. And this could be a situation that it seems to be where there is so much vindictiveness on the part of this defendant

that he obviously went all the way and took this attorney out. You know, to Scott Kimball, Crime Stories investigative reporter, the homeless guy was allegedly trying to steal copper wire at the time he was shot. What do we know about that incident, Scott Kimball? Yes, we have the two men were in the business and were stealing the copper wire. And we understand that the business owner here, Jungerman, arrived with an AK-47 and shot the two men, badly injuring them. What we know about the victim is this. 39-year-old Pickert, married with children, had won this case for his client,

which resulted in a $5.75 million verdict. Court officials state the process last week of seizing Youngerman's property occurred in both his home and his business. How mad do you think he was? Jackie is telling me here in the studio that he answered a silent alarm and discovered the two guys stealing copper and opened fire with an AK-47. Then he gets this nearly six6 million verdict against him. Now, this past week, court officials were seizing property from his home and his business to pay this nearly $6 million verdict.

I know that the victim's wife worked as a doctor for the University of Kansas Health System. I'm just beside myself about the children, the two little boys that we know of, to have their dad gunned down on the front porch. You know, I'm looking at a picture of David Jungerman, and he looks like, you know, if you put a beard and a red hat on him, Cheryl McCollum, he could play Santa Claus. He's smiling. He's got red cheeks.

And, you know, if you dressed him up right, he could be Santa for Pete's sake. Me too. This case is so heartbreaking all the way around. But, you know, it makes me think of Sarah Tokars a little bit. And all I can say is at least the shooter waited until the children were at school and not with him. We're taking a look at this guy, David Jungerman. He made the news when he shot two homeless people

in his Missouri property with an AK-47 after he caught them thanks to a silent alarm stealing copper wire. Then there was another incident where he had painted a sign on a semi-trailer calling Democrats, quote, parasites. allegedly registered to this 79-year-old Kansas City business owner, is linked by witnesses to the shooting death of a young lawyer who had won a huge civil judgment against Zjungerman. This is what we know. And we're looking at photos of him. We're trying to figure out what he's all about. Tom Pickert, 39, was a partner in a well-known Kansas City law firm and had just gotten back from walking his children to school. Neighbors described shots

ringing out and hearing a woman screaming. Then a neighbor says they saw a white van, quote, crawling down Pickert Street the night before the shooting. What does that say to you, Joe Scott Morgan? Sounds like he was casing the scene. Yeah, he wanted to get, whoever did this, wanted to get a perspective on the targeted area where this young man was shot and specific to where he was going to pounce on this individual. I'm going to be interested in seeing the forensics here, particularly where the entrance wound is on this fellow

and what the relationship is as far as the shooting. Was this an incident that this weapon was fired at close range or was it something that was fired at a great distance? Did he wait until this guy was about to walk into the house? You know, or was he face to face with him when this when this event occurred? This says a lot about the individual that's doing this. We also know that the van has been recovered. The white Chevy van has been recovered empty.

I want to go back to Cheryl McColl mccullum crime scene investigator and director of the cold case institute cheryl i want to hear your thoughts on this we've got a wife now a widow and two little boys still so young they have to be walked to school without a dad nancy i believe this shooter shot from the van so we use the van as his cover to try to be unseen and sped away very quickly. Again, we know he's capable of shooting people. We know he's capable of shooting

people over property. So if he's going to shoot somebody over copper wire, what is he going to do when it's $5.7 million? Cheryl, are you sitting down? In 1990, he was arrested for holding juveniles at gunpoint after he found them fishing in his pond.

There you go. We now have a clear pattern with this guy. You do not touch his property. And this is probably going to be... Wait a minute, Cheryl. I wasn't quite through. One month after he shoots the two homeless men

at his business, which he admits to, he allegedly shot another suspected intruder. Okay. That's quite a resume, Dr. Daniel Bober. Quite a resume.

You don't have to be a forensic psychiatrist to see the pattern here and realize that this guy has totally disproportionate responses to people touching his property. So it really, if he is in fact a shooter, this certainly would be consistent with his pattern in the past. Where does it stand right now with me is Alan Duke joining me from L.A. Alan, right now, what do we know? Right now, this man has not been named a suspect. What they do say is that it was his van that they found and they're searching the van for clues and they're considering whether to arrest him. We do know that they've been at his business. They've been at his home for some time and we're waiting

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LinkAKC.com. Code Nancy. Thanks, LinkAKC. She has stab wounds on her back. The chilling 911 call, those are the words when a married school teacher is found stabbed dead just before her daughter's wedding. Her husband says intruders murdered his wife. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

First of all, let's listen to that 911 call and see what we can learn. 911, what's the city of your emergency? Strongsville, Ohio. We have people on the way already. What's the address? 17784 Blazing Star. I think someone killed my wife. You think someone killed your wife? Yeah, it looks like she has stab wounds on her back. We've had people trying to break in our house all year, stealing shit. Sir, I need to ask you questions, okay? Are you there right now? I just got in the door with my new son-in-law. My son Kyle was here with her. Sir, what I want you to do is walk outside and stay in the front, okay? You said she's stabbed in the back?

Yeah, I don't want to... Yes, if you don't do it, you can start CPR. I don't think she's... Her face hit the ground and there's blood, there's a pool of blood. Can you see if she's breathing? No, she is not. Do you think she's breathing. Her face hit the ground and there's a pool of blood. Can you see if she's breathing? No, she is not. Do you think she's got CPR? No. Okay, what I want you to do is I want you to go outside.

Everyone in the house, go outside and wait in the front, okay? Bailey, who does this person look? Do you see anyone else in the home? My son Kyle is here. He has Down syndrome. She sent me a text to meet me at Brew Kettle at 425. I didn't hear from her. I didn't expect this.

What the? No, sir, I understand you're upset, but where's Kyle at in the home? He's outside with Jeff, our son-in-law. You know, we've asked people to watch our frickin' area. We've had people attempt to break in just this week. I don't know what's going on in this city,

but this whole shit isn't getting done yet. I understand you're upset, but can you give me your name, please? No, you people dropped the frickin' ball. Sir, can you just

take a deep breath? Is there any... This whole city's getting frickin' taken over. Sir, I understand you're upset, but I need you to stay focused, okay?

You don't think you can perform CPR, correct? She's in the kitchen. I can't believe this. We've had a break in all your things. We're stolen and missing. I saw this chair down. You said she's in the kitchen?

She is in the kitchen? What was the last time you were safe? Sir? I got here. We got home about three minutes ago. You said she's in the kitchen? You saw her. What's your name?

This morning, 7.30 a.m. What's your name? Bruce Flaskovic, I'm her husband. Okay, what's your name? We've had people trying to break in our house, like a lot. They flash our cameras. We're getting targeted, and I don't know by who the f*** is doing this, but I'm pissed. Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute Crime Scene Investigator,

Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Scott Kimbler, crime stories contributor, and Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what do you learn from the 911 call? dead on the floor and that she appears to have been stabbed and stabbed like multiple times. But he's not attempting CPR. And then all of a sudden he goes into in the midst of the 911 call, goes into a tirade directed at the local police department, talking about how they've had burglars over the past year. And he doesn't understand why the community is not being taken care of. All the while, his wife is dead on the floor or close to death.

The 911 operator can't even get it verified that she is, in fact, deceased. I hear what you're saying, Joseph Scott Morgan. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, he's right. At first, I would have said that, you know, there's no telling what somebody might say when they find their spouse dead on the floor. They could go off on police. They could go off on anybody.

But it sounds like he very quickly goes from, I think she's dead. You think? You think she's dead? Cheryl, that's the first thing that hit me. There's no doubt about that, Nancy. But like you always taught me, let's start at the beginning the very first thing out of his mouth is we have people on the way already so you called 9-1-1 to tell him you didn't need them what what is that about

and then he goes into I think someone killed my wife but he's very clear that she has multiple stab wounds. So that leads you to think, was there, was she not covered in blood? I mean, he could see the individual stab wound with her shirt lifted up. I want to know how we knew she was stabbed, not shot or something else. He immediately goes to that. The other thing that is very disconcerting to me is in that call, he states very clearly, her face hit the ground. He could not know that unless he were there. Repeat that one more time, Cheryl McCollum. His exact quote to the operator is, her face hit the ground. Now, you find your wife stabbed, bleeding everywhere.

She may or may not have a facial injury, but you know she wasn't punched. You know she wasn't hit with something by this assailant. You know for a fact her face hit the ground. You were there when that happened, if you know that. To Dr. Daniel Bober, a forensic psychiatrist, he could easily say, well, I thought she was stabbed in the back and fell face forward. That's why I said that. Yeah, Nancy, I mean, his behavior is completely bizarre and very suspicious. I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean we know for a fact that he was involved,

but it's certainly highly suggested. Well, right now, no one has been named a person of interest, much less a suspect. This is what we do know. Sixth grade school teacher Melinda Pleskiewicz, was found dead in her home. Her husband calls 911 saying someone fatally stabbed her in the back. The medical examiner's office has identified her as Melinda. She was a teacher at Strongsville Middle School. She was married with three children. It was just before her daughter's wedding. Now, interesting, there have been four documented incidents involving very suspicious activity at their home. Take a listen to her, Melinda, as she is calling police about her car alarm. Listen.

Southwest Dispatch. Yes, I'm calling from about her car alarm. Listen. Southwest Dispatch. Yes, I'm calling from Strongfield. Yes. We just had two people, two big giant adults, trying to pull on our back door. Okay. They're gone. Did you see which way they went?

No. Did you see them look where they ran to? No. We grabbed a flashlight and came out. By the time we got out here, they're all gone. But we live in a common area. Joe Scott Morgan and Cheryl McCollum, Dr. Daniel Boebert. Cheryl McCollum, Dr. Daniel Boebert, Cheryl McCollum to you. So there was an incident in the past year where some teen boys were on the family trampoline in the backyard, and she thought they might be smoking pot. And she said, get out of here, get out of our yard, get off the trampoline. Was that an isolated incident, Cheryl? Or can the same teens be connected to the other incidents? You know

where I'm going, Cheryl. I do. And it's my understanding that no neighbor and no police ever saw any of these people they're alleging to have seen. Not the two adults that attempted to break in, not the teens. To my knowledge, no one has been questioned, caught, arrested, seen. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert. Let's just break it down. Take it in order. This woman is stabbed dead. A sixth grade teacher at a middle school, stabbed dead in her own home when everybody else is gone. I want to find out so many things. But first, I want to find out if she was alive when paramedics got there. What we do know is that she was removed from the scene and pronounced dead at the hospital. Of course, pronouncement.

Did she say anything about who attacked her? No, nothing whatsoever. Okay. There was no utterance from her whatsoever, Nancy. She was removed from the scene, taken to the hospital, and she was pronounced dead shortly after that. Okay. Hold on, hold on. Got a lot of questions.

Let me just rapid fire here. Sure, you go ahead. Let's talk about these previous instances that would seemingly suggest that some type of a vandal who had been terrorizing the family broke in and managed to pull off this murder so far no fingerprints or suggestion has pointed to another perpetrator was there a forced entry joe scott there was the day in the days leading up

to the night of the murder was there a forced entry? No, not to the best of my knowledge. That has been indicated by... Do we know if they had a burglar alarm? No, I do not. I do not know that. The police have not released that information. Simple yes or no is fine.

Okay. Four different family members, to my knowledge, called 911 in the previous 10 months, including the murder victim. Okay. Now, did any of them ever get a description 911 in the previous 10 months, including the murder victim. Okay. Now, did any of them ever get a description of the so-called perp? Only the son.

And what did the son say? The son said. I thought he said it was a man in a hoodie and he didn't see his face. That's correct. And he identified. That's not a description. Well, it's the only description that they have at this point. He identified what?

He identified a male. He was nonspecific about race, and he stated that the individual was wearing a hoodie and that he attempted to push the door in until his dog alerted. That is the son's dog, and the guy ran away. But he never got a look at the face. Now, is that the instance when the man was able to open door the door about three inches yes yes it is hmm never saw his face okay so cheryl mccollum we know that the mom one of those calls i assume was the mom the now murder victim saying that she saw some teens in the backyard on the trampoline and she got rid of them.

Is that one of the calls? Did she call police, Cheryl? My understanding, the daughter is the one that called the police over the kids in the backyard on the trampoline. The mother called for the son-in-law and said two grown, gigantic men tried to, you know, open the sliding glass door. She was answering questions 9-1-1 through the son-in-law. The other question that came about from that call from me is she said that the son-in-law grabbed a flashlight and attempted to go outside. Now, if there's two gigantic adult grown men trying to break into your house, you're just going to grab a flashlight and go look for them. I mean, everything about this is odd. Something does not ring true with every 911 call, Nancy.

Let me ask you this to Scott Kimber, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Were other people in the neighborhood experiencing the same things, break-ins, car vandalism, and so forth? Apparently not, Nancy. What we're learning is that this neighborhood in Strongsville, Ohio, is very quiet, and the police say that they do not have a lot of activity there, but they seem to have a lot of calls

to this house, where in general, it's a quiet, low-crime neighborhood. To Dr. Daniel Bober, what do you make of it? All the stab wounds to the wife in very, I would imagine,

rapid succession, and what do you make of somebody that would, is it the same person that would set off a car alarm to irritate someone? Would that same person go in the home and stab the mother dead? Nancy, there's a lot of moving parts here, and it all seems to not add up. You know, you've got these teenagers that no one saw. You've got this description that's really essentially meaningless, and it all seems to emanate from the family. So there may have been legitimate break-ins. There may have been legitimate vandalism. It could be a complete red herring. It may have no connection to the crime whatsoever. But what is very odd is that no one else in the neighborhood seems to be able to witness any of these things that the family is reporting. Cheryl McCollum, was she raped?

Not that we know of, Nancy. That hasn't been told. But I do need to clarify one thing for you. She was not in that home alone. Yes, you're right. Her son was with her who had Down syndrome and is nonverbal. And there's been at least one report of a grandchild being in the home that is one year old. They were not harmed at all.

But they also won't be very good as a witness. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Cheryl's absolutely correct. She had her Down syndrome son, who's a teen, and a very minor child, who would break in the home and be emboldened enough to commit a murder where there's no sex assault and no robbery that I know of, and know that these two witnesses could not testify against them. Either someone that was part of the family or connected to the family or someone that, you know, absolutely has no conscience whatsoever. Or they didn't know they were there. I mean,

for all I know, they were in the basement playing video games or in their bedrooms or taking a bath. Now, I also know Scott Kimbler on the January 9 incident where there was a break-in. That was to the dad's car and a laptop and some cash was taken. The night of the murder, Scott Kimbler, do we know of any theft from the home? No, the night of the murder, there was not a theft from the home that the police have told us about. Strongsville Police Chief Mark Fender says they do not have a suspect. When asked if there was a danger to the community, he urged people to, quote, use reasonable care. We know that four members of the Pleskovec family have called 911 regarding suspicious activity at their home over about the past year,

10 months from missing car keys to a claim that someone tried to break in to a theft from the vehicle. It all culminates in the murder of the mom. With no apparent sex attack and no robbery, a sixth grade school teacher in Ohio is dead. And we want answers. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.