Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mother obsessed with conspiracies murders her 3 children to "save" them.

Episode Date: April 19, 2021

A California woman accused of killing her three children, openly admits she drowned her kids. KGET 17 News spoke exclusively with 30-year-old Liliana Carrillo, at the Lerdo Pre-trial Facility. The children’s grandmother came home from work and found them dead inside a Reseda apartment. Carrillo had already fled the scene, but police caught up with her nearly 200 miles away. Carrillo explained that she did everything she could to protect the children from their father, Erik Denton. Denton filed papers with the courts saying Carrillo was suffering from mental health issues. A judge ultimately signed an emergency custody order, mandating that Carillo hand the children over to Denton. Carrillo reportedly believed she was protecting her children from being targets of a pedophile ring.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy - North Carolina, Family Attorney, www.ncdomesticlaw.com  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women  Dr. Michelle Dupre - Forensic Pathologist and former Medical Examiner, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Ret. Police Detective Lexington County Sheriff’s Department Justin Boardman - former Detective, Special Victim’s Unit, West Valley City Police Department, Boardman Training & Consulting, JustinBoardman.com Eytan Wallace - News Reporter, KGET-TV 17 News, Bakersfield, CA, Twitter: @Eytanwallace Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Three little children are dead, ages three, two, and just six months old. As of right now, we are hearing multiple reports of cause of death, COD. Stabbed, bludgeoned, drowned. What happened to these three children? And why is it so important that they die? Police swarming this apartment complex along Reseda Boulevard after an unthinkable crime. Three children, ages three, two, and six months old, found dead, discovered by their grandmother.

I can't even fathom that. It's devastating. It's hurtful. Not even know the people. The initial call coming in as a stabbing. Many neighbors, moms themselves, having a tough time hearing what happened. My heart is broken. Like every time when I see news about children like this, my heart breaks in pieces, you know. And now it's like right in front of my building. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable is absolutely correct. That's where we were first hearing that the cause of death of these three little children was stabbing. Again, I'm Nancy Grayson. Thank you for being with us. I know that sometimes cases, especially cases involving children, are very

difficult to grapple with. But the reality is that we want justice and we don't want this to ever happen again. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. Veteran trial lawyer, Kathleen Murphy, joining me out of North Carolina. And you can find her at ncdomesticlaw.com. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. And you can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Michelle Dupree, former medical examiner, forensic pathologist, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide and others. Justin Boardman, former detective, special victims unit, West Valley City PD. Now at Boardman Training and Consultant at Justininboardman.com. But first,

to Eitan Wallace, news reporter, KGET-TV, 17 News in Bakersville. And you can find him on Twitter at Eitan Wallace. Also, all you have to do is plug that name in online and he pops up everywhere. Eitan Wallace, first of all, take a listen to our friends at ABC7. On the sidewalk outside this Reseda apartment building, people leave flowers, toys, and candles in memory of three children, the victims of a horrific crime. Their heartbroken godmother placing photos at the site, identifying them as Joanna, Terry, and Sierra Denton.

They were the most happiest kids I ever had around in my life. identifying them as Joanna, Terry, and Sierra Denton. They were the most happiest kids I ever had around in my life. Man, I never thought that we would have to lose them so soon. The grandmother of the 3-year-old, 2-year-old, and 6-month-old victims found their bodies after returning home from work Saturday morning. Back to Eitan Wallace joining us from KGET-TV 17. Eitan, tell me about the area where these children were found murdered, and there's no doubt they were murdered. Nancy, this is the Reseda that's in the West San Fernando Valley, part of Los Angeles. Reseda is a neighborhood in the San Fernando Valley near L.A.

It goes all the way back to 1912. Beautiful neighborhood. What can you tell me about it? Is it industrial? Is it rural? Is it suburban? What is it? Certainly a lot of people who live there, I would say it's not rural.

A lot of people live there. This is the West San Fernando Valley, not far from the 101 and 405 freeway. Definitely a lot of people live there. And it's a place that I can tell you for one that I know a lot of people who grew up there. So certainly a place where people, a lot of people live in Los Angeles. It's a favorite of the film industry, thanks to all the parks and communities there. It was originally founded for agriculture, as is much of California. Absolutely stunning.

And three little children dead doesn't really fit into that scenario. But what we know to Justin Boardman, former detective special victims unit, is you can be in a completely rural area with a low crime rate and it doesn't matter. Crime can find you. It absolutely can. And thanks for having me. This is it can happen next door neighbors. It can happen out on the streets. This sort of crime is not obviously it, it's not predictable, and it could

be anywhere. Yeah, you know, when you say out on the street, when we hear of murders, we think, oh, you know, this was during a robbery, this was during a burglary, this is related to drugs. I will never forget in New York when the news hit me that in a posh neighborhood in Atlanta, at the gates of a country club, a guy was getting an Uber from a wedding party and got shot down by somebody looking to carjack and rob. And you would have thought it was the first murder that ever happened. It was such a shock to that neighborhood because there had never been a murder there before. But it does happen.

And right now we are talking about in a family neighborhood, three children found dead. And at first we are hearing that they are stabbed. You know, the reality is to Kathleen Murphy, to find three children dead is highly unlikely. That rarely happens in their own home. I mean, I don't know what to say, Nancy. It's becoming more and more common as we read our news. And I would simply suggest to you that there's a problem out there that we're going to discuss today. You know, straight to Dr. Angela Arnold. Earlier, Dr. Angie, we were hearing from our friends at NBC LA and then from ABC 7.

And it's very interesting that we're getting conflicting accounts of how the children were killed and that almost immediately there is an outpouring of balloons and flowers and candles outside their home. People do that, what, from the hope to solve the case, from shock, from sympathy. The shock of the community here, I think, is very important. Yes. And Nancy, I think, is very important. Yes. And Nancy, I think that people do it because somehow they want to be a part of it. You know how complete strangers will come and they're curious because even though these things continue to happen and people continue to be unaware of the warning signs to look for, people are always amazed when something like this happens, like, oh my God, this is the first time it's ever happened.

And people really do weirdly want to be a part of it. Well, I think not in a weird, prurient way, but in a way that they want answers. And like all of us, don't want it to happen again. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, has written Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, tell me, if you were to walk into that scene as not a medical examiner, but as a medical examiner investigator, what do you do with a scene like that? How do you process a scene with these little children's bodies and manage to keep going and not breaking down? And what forensics do you look for? Nancy, you have to be very professional. And this is when those children need you the most.

So you have got to keep it together. One of the things, well, many things that that you look for you process the scene as professionally as you can and you look for every single detail you look for clues of what happened where are the children found you know what are the circumstances you look at every single thing and you photograph and you measure and you do very very detailed work so that this does not go unpunished. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, Joanna, age three, Terry, age two, Sierra, just six months old, found dead.

First reports that they were found stabbed dead. How does that happen in a suburban family setting? Take a listen again to our friend Kim Tobin, NBC LA Cut One. Police swarming this apartment complex along Reseda Boulevard after an unthinkable crime. Three Children, ag old, found dead, discover I can't even fathom that hurtful. Not even know th coming in as a stabbing.

themselves having a tough happened. My heart is bro when I see news about children like this, my heart breaks in pieces, you know. And now it's like right in front of my building. It's unbelievable. The search for the killer is on. And then a sudden twist in the case. Take a listen to our new friend from KGET 17. It's the shocking admission now making headlines around the world. Liliana Carrillo says she murdered her three children Saturday at this apartment complex in the San Fernando Valley. I drowned them.

I did it as softly, or I don't know how to explain it, but I hugged them and I kissed them and I was apologizing the whole time. I love my kids. During the emotional one-on-one interview in both English and Spanish at the Laredo Kern County Jail Facility, Carrillo broke down in tears, saying she drowned her children to protect them from their father, with whom she was in a bitter custody dispute. She alleged he was involved in human trafficking. I don't want them to be further abused. Okay, I'm getting so many conflicting reports. Let's go to the source of knowledge. Here we go.

Eitan Wallace, news reporter, KGET-TV 17. Eitan, again, thank you for being with us. When you first learn, while the man hunts on for the killer that mommy says she, quote, killed, drowned her children softly. I find that hard to believe because even when Andrea Yates drowned all of her children, her little bitty baby girl, Mary, who was just a few months old, maybe 10, 11 months old, was covered in bruises where the child tried desperately to live. Okay, so I doubt anything was done gently. When you first learned mommy had admitted to three murders, what did you think?

Well, Nancy, first of all, it's tragic. I thought it was tragic, number one. But, you know, my job as the interviewer was to follow up and ask further questions, you know, to take me more through this. So it was tragic, number one. And I tried to let her speak as much as I can throughout that interview. So she spoke to you directly, Eitan? Yes, she did. It was an in-person jailhouse interview at the Laredo Jail in Kern County, north of Bakersfield, California. Eitan, what was her demeanor? Because she sounds very calm.

That's a great question. That's actually how she struck me, Nancy. You know, she walked into the jailhouse room in shackles. We immediately say hello. I'm standing up there. She's standing up. And she says, you know, I say hi, I actually refer to her as her first name, Liliana. I say, hi, Liliana. She says, hi, Mr. Wallace. Very calm. Both of us say, please have a seat. And thanks for being here.

And then we kind of got right into it. And you are absolutely right. She was very calm. Do you know she was medicated? I asked her that very question. and she claimed that she was not. So she was calm and she was not medicated. I find that very, very interesting. To the rest of the panel, you are the experts. If you have a question for Eitan Wallace, jump in because this mom's demeanor, I mean, as you may know, Eitan, recently my whole family was diagnosed with COVID and I put on a calm front for the children, but away from the

children, I was not calm at all. I find it very interesting that this mother who has just murdered her children remained calm. Eitan, she told you that she drowned the children? Indeed, she told me she drowned the children, and then she proceeded to go through what she said to them in their final moments, Nancy. When you say what she did to them in their final moments, what do you mean by that? Well, she specifically went through what she was saying to them. She said she was kissing them and constantly saying, I'm sorry, and apologizing to them. But then when asked specifically to take us through more of where it happened or how it was done besides the drowning, she then was a little bit more reserved.

But she did take us through what she said to them, including her final words, which were, I love you and I'm sorry. You know, I find it very difficult to make this, make the facts jive, fit together to reconcile. The fact that when the grandmother found them dead, she thought they had been stabbed. Another report says bludgeoned. And mommy is saying she killed them gently

by drowning them. And with me is the man who spoke to mommy in an in-jail interview, Eitan Wallace. Take a listen to more of what we learn was said behind bars. Do you regret any part of it? I regret meeting the father of their kids. I regret accepting to go out with them. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have had my kids and I wouldn't be in this situation.

But you do not regret what you just told me. You do not regret murdering your children? It's not the same thing. Obviously, I wish I didn't have to, but I'm glad that they're not going to suffer. They're not going to be continuously harmed. This is the biggest dump truck full of BS I have ever smelled in my life. I mean, a whole dump truck. Okay, so you ask her, Eitan Wallace, do you regret murdering your three children? And she says, I regret saying yes to the first date with my

husband because he put me in this position. What? I've got to count how many times she said I, I, I, I. It's all about her. Did you just such a long interview, Nancy. And by long, I mean a half hour in English there, raw interview that I asked that question on several occasions. And on another occasion, I said, I asked her again and she said she wishes her kids were alive. Yes. But she also said, do I wish I didn't have to do that? Yes. But I prefer them not being tortured and abused. This is her quote there. Oh, she doesn't think murder is abuse. Let's play that again. It's our cut 16.

Listen to Liliana Carrillo in a jailhouse interview with our friend, Eitan Wallace, KGET 17. Listen to this woman. Do you regret any part of it? I regret meeting the father of their kids. I regret accepting to go out with him. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have had my kids and I wouldn't be in this situation. Stop right there.

Stop. Stop right there. Stop right there. Okay, I really don't know which way to turn, but I guess I'm going to go to the psychiatrist. Dr. Angie, do not start up with me about postpartum depression. This woman had depression and she self-medicated with pot. Doesn't pot make you more depressed? Well, pot can have a lot of different, can actually have different effects on different people.

I have a feeling, I mean, I don't know this, but I have a feeling that the pot may have somehow been calming her down. It certainly sounds like she has some sort of fixed false belief about the father of these children. That's not insanity. Okay, let me just rephrase my question, Dr. Angela. You're the psychiatrist. You prescribe drugs. What was your major other than psychiatry?

My specialty is taking care of women who are pregnant. Okay, well, no, no, I didn't ask you your specialty. I asked you your major in college. What was it? Biology. So you should know the effects of marijuana on a system. I think you should. And it's my understanding it puts you in a, often like alcohol, can end up making you depressed.

It can. I'll tell you, Nancy, believe it or not, it does do different things to different people. I believe you. But it calms a lot of people. Some people it activates and other people it calms. She was probably using it to calm. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, I'm having a hard time taking in that this mother, Liliana Carrillo, age 30, murdered all three of her children to protect them from abuse. What abuse?

I want you to take a listen to more of what we know about this case. Listen. Do you regret your actions? I wish my kids were alive, yes. Do I wish that I didn't have to do that? Yes. But I prefer them not being tortured and abused on a regular basis for the rest of their life. Do you believe your children were physically harmed? Yes.

To add to that, do you believe your children were physically harmed when you say you drowned them? No. I did it as softly, or I don't know how to explain it, but I hugged them and I kissed them and I was apologizing the whole time. I love my kids. I love my kids. I was there every day my first two kids were born and went straight into NICU, and I promised I would protect them. Okay, so she killed them. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina, at ncdomesticLaw.com. Let it rip.

Oh, my goodness, Nancy. So this is the very case that I just had in Wake County Family Court. Our judge gave me an emergency order, but I went to the court and got an order directing the sheriff to remove the children from the mother who had lost touch with reality. And I don't know why there was not an order directing the police to remove the children, but I do know something that's very concerning. And why are they not investigating this grandmother who may have assisted this woman in avoiding this order and misrepresenting the facts to CPS. Hold on just a moment. We're putting the cart before the horse. Eitan Wallace, KGET TV 17. Look for him online. There's a lot to find there.

Eitan Wallace, wasn't there a bitter custody dispute ongoing? You are 100% correct, Nancy. Indeed, there was a bitter custody dispute over the three children. In fact, the children's father was supposed to see the three children once every two weeks on every other Sunday. And, of course, the day before that Sunday, that grisly discovery was made. So, Eitan Wallace, her defense and others. I'd like to step in here, Nancy, with Eitan and clarify something about me. On this panel would suggest that mommy was having depression, had been postpartum and was self-medicating with pot.

But I find it too much of a coincidence, which there is no coincidence in criminal law, that the day before daddy's supposed to have his visit, she kills them. She blames the murders on daddy. She would rather them be dead than let the dad have visitation and custody. She said, I'm sorry at the time that she did it.

And not only that, she goes on a, let me just say, wild chase. What were you saying, Kathleen Murphy? Jump in. I'm sorry. The guy had an order for emergency custody. And so his contact on that, that he was supposed to have every other Sunday visitation, he had an emergency custody order

that she was evading, I believe. Is that correct? Exactly. Exactly. Jump in, Eitan. Well, indeed. And from my understanding, the father,

he actually petitioned the court for custody on March 1st, alleging their mother was delusional and had taken the kids and refused to tell him where they were. Now, as far as the actual agreement there or what the court decided, I hear that they were extremely slow and the father did not get what he was trying to get. That's what he wanted, though, right, Eitan? Yes, that is indeed exactly what he wanted. If you're feeling sympathy, which sounds like Dr. Angie Arnold is starting up with depression and postpartum, take a listen to Alex Bell, 23 ABC News.

The woman accused of killing her three children in Los Angeles and carjacking appeared in a local court today. Investigators say Liliana Carrillo killed her three children amid an ongoing custody battle in Los Angeles County. And after those alleged killings, Carrillo traveled through Kern County, where she was reportedly involved in a carjacking. Carrillo was arrested in Tulare County. And as far as the ongoing murder investigation goes, Assistant DA Joseph Kinzel says those proceedings are being taken into consideration here in Kern. The Los Angeles Police Department is investigating the potential homicide case down in Los Angeles. That investigation is not complete.

While we do liaison with the Los Angeles Police Department to make sure we understand what's going on because it does have an interplay into the charges here. We don't have a complete investigation at this point, so I'm not going to speak for them. Carrillo is being held on a $2 million bail for four felony counts, including carjacking and attempted carjacking. She is due back in court on May 7th. Okay, to Justin Boardman, former Detective Special Victims Unit, West Valley PD. Justin, this is not a woman sobbing into her pillow. She kills her three children and then goes out and carjacks the car.

Don't even start preaching to me about postpartum. Absolutely, no. Power and control certainly plays a part in this i uh this isn't a mercy killing this is out of spite and that's how i'd start building my case but i would also take a look at some of the system's failures or rid of assistance like the attorney was saying earlier why didn't't that happen? And try to fix some of those. Let me understand what you're saying. Justin Boardman, you're a courtroom pro and an investigative pro. When you say writ of assistance and let me just be blunt, blah,

blah, blah. A lot of people don't know what you're talking about. I think what you're saying and legal police jargon is the court didn't move quickly enough. The father was trying to get full custody because the mother kept hiding the children. And the court wouldn't rule. Was that what you were trying to say? Okay. Okay. Absolutely. Yes, ma'am.

Okay. Okay. Absolutely. Yes, ma'am. Okay. And when you just said something, it really struck a nerve in me when you said this was not a mercy killing. And that reminds me of Andrea Yates. Take a listen to Hour Cut 18. This is Fox 13. Precious, precious kids. A father's tears as he returns home where Wednesday his entire family was destroyed. He was at work when his children were killed. His wife, Andrea, says she did it.

You know, then I called my wife again, and I said, what's wrong, Andrea? And she said, you know, like, you need to come home. I said, has anyone hurt? And she said, yes. And I said, who? And she said, the children. And she said yes I said I said who and she said the children and she said all of them veteran police officers went into shock after seeing the beautiful children laid out on the bed the oldest still in the tub they had all apparently been drowned by their mother this is a harsh call

I've ever been on and I know for the for the other officers that they made made the first response that were the first response, the first ones here, it was very difficult. I mean, you don't expect something like this. Now, Andrea Yates was undergoing a lot of mental illness. I believe she had five children very quickly. She had been living in a school bus instead of a home when her husband decided to eschew modern trappings and a comfortable lifestyle. Long story short, however, she waited until her husband left to go to work so she would be alone with the children. She locked all the

doors. She took them systematically one by one by one so the others could not interfere. And she did it in a method so she would meet the least resistance, which shows intent to kill. Now, in this case, however, Eitan Wallace, KGET TV 17, you can find Eitan online. Eitan, we're getting so many conflicting reports that the children were stabbed, the children were bludgeoned dead, and the children, according to mommy, were drowned gently as she apologized and told them she loved them. Well, that's just a crock of BS. Okay, let me just, that's a technical legal term, Eitan. I don't know if you've ever used that before. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

For those of you just joining us, a mother has admitted to murdering her three children. So what is it, Etan Wallace? Is it stabbing? Is it bludgeoning? Is it drowning? Well, Nancy, I wish I had the exact answer to that question. But from what the mother told me in the jailhouse interview that Saturday morning, she woke up and she drowned the children. She said she drowned them to death. But, you know, to you, Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, there's no mistaking when you go in and you think a stabbing or a bludgeoning has occurred, there's no way a drowning would look like that.

A drowning probably would not be referred to as a grisly crime scene. Nancy, that's true. And one thing that we have to remember is that in order for a medical examiner or someone to certify a death as a grisly crime scene. Nancy, that's true. And one thing that we have to remember is that in order for a medical examiner or someone to certify a death as a drowning, we have to exclude every other cause. It's called a diagnosis of exclusion. So if there is some other reason that these children are dead, then that would be the cause of death and not drowning. You know, another issue to you, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. She is at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, why would she lie if she did about how she murdered them? Well, I don't know if you're going to like my answer to this.

I can tell right now I'm not, but go ahead. But I'm wondering if she even recalls bludgeoning them. And then she drowned them, and that's the part she remembers. That's just my psychiatric take on this. I have not spoken to this woman. Okay, Dr. Angie, actually, I don't feel one way or the other about what you said. And you know why? Because I don't feel one way or the other about what you said. And you know why? Because I don't care. I don't care if she doesn't remember that she drowned them or bludgeoned them or however you put it. The reality is that it was a, quote, grisly crime scene.

The children were first reported stabbed. Now there are reports that they were bludgeoned. She says she drowned them in a soft and gentle triple homicide. How could she not? I think she's trying to minimize what she did to them by saying she drowned them gently. I know. I know. And probably a lot of people think that. But Nancy, my problem with this whole thing is, why was this not picked up on?

Why didn't somebody take these kids away from her? Well, I'm glad you said that. I'd like to jump in on this one too, Nancy. Because it was back in February that the father was awarded custody. And apparently, Eitan Wallace from KGET-TV17, she has been keeping the children from the dad and he was getting fed up with it? Well, from what she said, Nancy, in the JLS interview was, yes, she definitely was with the children for a lot of it and did not want the children to be with the father. That's exactly right. Kathleen, was that you jumping in? Yes,

and I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'll tell you why he didn't have the children. It's because the family court system that we presently work with doesn't work. It absolutely does not work. And if the court took it seriously, they would have given him an order that allowed him possession, which would allow the police to pick up these children. The grandmother knew where these children were. And I'd like for that whole matter to be investigated. Was she a part of keeping these children and knowing that there was an order out there that granted the father temporary emergency custody? And Nancy, we have so many situations like that all the time where emergency custody orders are, in fact, denied by the court. So here we have the dad coming to get

the children the next day. In the past, it would have been for visitation. Our understanding is that mommy would hide the children. The dad then gets custody from the court, but mommy keeps hiding the children. Those are the facts that we are discerning because the facts aren't clear yet. But listen to this. Take a listen to more of KGET 17's Eitan Wallace in a jailhouse interview with mommy, our cut 15. Well, I tried to drive myself off a cliff. On Saturday? Yes. Well, I tried to drive myself off a cliff. Talking about Saturday. Yes. I tried to kill myself so I can be with my kids, and it didn't work.

And there were a lot of inadvertent car accidents along the way because of blood loss, I'm assuming, where I passed out. And that, unfortunately, didn't do anything. And so I tried getting to the top of a cliff so I can drive myself off and die. In the process did you attempt to carjack or carjack anybody in Kern County? In the process my car got stuck in a ditch and so I did want to basically kill myself so I intended on making it, getting it done. And doing so on Highway 65, did anybody try to help you?

Yeah. And what did you say to those person or people? I didn't want to help. And you took their vehicles? I did. So let me understand this, Eitan Wallace, KGET-TV 17. Mommy's so distraught that

she murdered her three children that she tries to drive off a cliff when in fact, she ran the car into a ditch. You know what, Nancy? In fact, what was interesting is that she actually told me she tried to die by suicide there in Reseda, in the San Fernando Valley. She claimed that was unsuccessful. So she then drove two hours north up to where we are in Kern County near Bakersfield, two hours north of Los Angeles, where whatever unsuccessful suicide attempt she had, she was bleeding. She claimed then she was in and out of consciousness, supposedly, at which point she crashed her car. Then when Good Samaritans tried to help, she said no.

And she claims that she stole their vehicles and tried to then go up into the mountains. Obviously, she was arrested in those mountains. Go up into the mountains. But somehow the children die and she's alive. So would you describe the mountains as a place where someone could hide out akin to, for instance, the Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph, who stayed hidden in the mountains for years before he was caught? That's a great question. Indeed, we're talking about the Sierra Nevada mountain ranges here where they have. It's not very well populated in some parts of these areas and high elevations.

Yes, you could definitely hide out in those areas. OK, between the carjack, the claiming to drown the children when actually they were found either stabbed or bludgeoned, according to reports. The blaming the husband who was nowhere near the scene, fleeing the scene. It all is adding up to premeditation, which is really hard to form if you're insane at the time. It's not the first time a mom has killed her children. Take a listen to Hour Cut 23. This is our friends at ABC Action News. Does the name Julie Schoenecker ring a bell?

A good mother, an image Julie Schoenecker still clings to, and the stunning reason for murdering her own children, Calix and Beau. In her first interview since her arrest, she tells me she sees herself as a savior, not a killer. That's the only thing I can think of doing to protect her. Steering at the floor, the 54-year-old mom held fast to claims she saved Bo from a molester, though she offered no names or evidence. And she claims through murder she saved Calix from rape and from mental illness, two demons Schoenecker says she experienced. She doesn't expect anyone to understand.

They'll never understand. The mother says the moment she pulled the trigger, she knew her plan worked. I saw them, their body, their little soul went right out of their body and went to heaven they never died okay um yeah i don't understand she also blamed the husband the father in that case because he was away on travel all the time. So often the mom kills the child and blames the dad somehow. And she is by far the first. Was that Kathleen jumping in? No, it was, it was Angie Arnold. Nancy, Nancy, nobody understands this. It is, it is not understandable, but I'm telling you, Nancy, I have treated these people. I thank the ones that at least get to seek some sort of treatment. Nancy,

I have listened to women in my office, postpartum women, look at me and say, when are the witches going to stop coming out of the air conditioning unit? Nancy, postpartum depression can turn into postpartum psychosis. If it's not treated. She had three children very close together. The husband was afraid of her being depressed, and it just doesn't get better on its own. It just gets worse and worse and worse.

And I know that it's a horrific, evil act, but Nancy, I'm telling you, these people think that they're either hearing voices or something telling them to do this, and they think that what they are doing is truly saving their children. What I blame is the system. I hear you, Dr. Angela Arnold. And as much as I would like to go ahead and convict her and send her on to the death penalty, I also want to know, was she mentally ill? I do not want a mentally ill person, woman or man, dad, mother, put in a general population with other inmates that would tear them apart. That's not justice. But I keep thinking about these three children now dead,

and I want answers. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crumstory signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.