Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Mother Pleads For Help as Husband of Missing Daughter, The Last to See Her, Says He Doesn’t Know Where She Is

Episode Date: August 5, 2021

Jepsy Kallungi, 24, was last seen on March 20, 2019. Her husband. Dale Kallungi told his wife’s mother that he thought she might have gone to visit friends. Kallungi wasn't sure however, his wife had gone to Mexico, Chicago, or her native Philippines. She did not take her cell phone or any identification. Jepsy Kallungi hasn't been seen since.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Nicole Deborde Hochglaube Criminal Defense Lawyer (Houston TX), Former Prosecutor, Twitter: @debordelaw, HoustonCriminalDefense.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women  ME - Dr. Todd M. Barr, M.D. - Deputy Medical Examiner/Forensic Pathologist at Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office (Cleveland OH), Twitter: @ToddBarrME Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips Sydnee Stelle - News Reporter, KRDO News Channel 13, KRDO dot com, Twitter: @SydneeStelle Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young woman literally travels the globe for true love and finds her dream man. Now she's missing. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Where is Gypsy? Take a listen to this. Tonight, a mother in Hong Kong holding out hope that her daughter, 26-year-old Gypsy Amaga, of Colorado Springs, will soon be found safe. She's been missing since March 20th with no trace of where she might have gone. Margie Amaga says she and her daughter talk regularly.

So when a few days went by without hearing from Gypsy, her suspicions started to rise. And now, 26 days later, she's just hoping for the best. I am so worried and I cannot sleep. I cannot concentrate my work. The emotional toll is mounting for Margie Amaga, her daughter, 26-year-old Jepsey Amaga, missing for nearly a month in Colorado Springs while she watches on from Hong Kong feeling hopeless. It's very hard for me. It's very painful for me because I am very far. I cannot comfort her and I don't know where I find her. I don't know. I'm only alone. I can only imagine the pain of that mother far away from her child learning that Gypsy is missing. Again, I'm Nancy Grace.

Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation Series XM 111. Let me introduce you to an all-star panel to make sense of what we know so far. First of all, Nicole DeBoer-Hotchglobe, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor joining us out of Houston. And you can find her at HoustonCriminalDefense.com. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. And you can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com, Dr. Todd Barr, deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, joining us out of Cleveland.

And you can find him at Thin Places, Essays from In Between, at Twitter, at Todd Bar M.E. Cheryl McCollum joining us, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. And you can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. But first, to Sidney Stell, news reporter, KRDO News Channel 13. Sidney, thank you so much for being with us. We were just listening to Rob Quirk and Elizabeth Watts at KOAA News 5 speaking to Gypsy's mom. I understand that Gypsy traveled the globe to meet her true love.

Tell me about that. Yeah, so she lived in the Philippines, and she had a great job. She had a bachelor's degree. She was the breadwinner for her family. She's got six siblings and a mom, and she was helping support them financially from the Philippines. She meets the guy, Dane Kalungi, online. And very quickly, she moves to the U.S. She moves and marries him in 2017. So she moves and leaves everything behind to come to the U.S. to be with Dane. Wow. She traveled all the way to the U.S. to marry her true love. You know, Dr. Angela Arnold, a lot of people poo-poo online dating.

A lot of couples don't want to admit they met online. But I've got a success story. My nephew, smart, smart, smart, double major in chemistry and IT, tech, meets a woman online, they date, they get married, they now have an almost four-year-old little boy perfectly happy. They just bought a house, couldn't be happier. It does happen, Dr. Angie. Well, of course it does. And Nancy, if it didn't happen, then online dating wouldn't be such a huge thing. Good point. The huge thing that it is, right?

So certainly there are success stories, but unfortunately it is such a medium for people to fool people about who they really are. Yeah, and there are a lot of rules to follow with online dating, what to reveal and when to reveal it. But in this case, she travels the world, she meets her dream man, and they do get married. And then she goes missing. Take a listen to Sam Kramer, KOAA. The Colorado Springs Police Department tells News 5 they are investigating this as a missing persons case. They're calling it an active investigation as a mother 7,500 miles away pleads for help from anyone that can. I just want to

find as soon as possible my daughter. I need her. So I need someone to help me. You know, I'm looking at a shot of Gypsy right now, and she looks like a model. Of course, that doesn't matter, Cheryl McCollum. You know, we take our witnesses and our victims the way we find them. I remember one witness coming in to court. It was in an arson case, Cheryl McCollum. And if I could, I'm going to remember her name in just a moment. She came into court mid-August in Atlanta.

It had to be 101 degrees outside. She had on a huge fake fur hat, and she reeked of booze. I know. When she walked past the jury, they all went, pfft. Okay? But she was one of the greatest witnesses ever because she saw what happened the night of the arson. Oh, by the way, it was a whole apartment complex. The whole thing went down in flames.

So she was the only eyewitness. So you take your witnesses and your victims as you find them. Now that was on one end of the spectrum, Cheryl McCallum, but this woman, Gypsy, she's gorgeous, beautiful, long, straight, silky black hair, perfect smile. I don't know if that's natural or if that's $20,000 worth of orthodontia, but this woman is gorgeous. She is beautiful. She's also well-educated. She's a hard worker, and she's devoted to her family. She's the breadwinner. So this is not somebody that's going to be flighty, that's not dependable, that you just have to question

what her motives are. She's a solid person that if you look at her pattern, that's what you've got to rely on right now is that pattern. Is she the person that dips for a day or two here and there? And if not, you've got to concentrate on that. I'm glad you said that about pattern evidence too. Nicole DeBoer-Hochglobe, criminal defense attorney joining me out of Houston and former prosecutor. Yes, it's true. Lady Justice is blind.

And I frankly don't give a fig if somebody is a debutante or a hooker. When it comes to a missing person or a murder or a sex assault, Lady Justice doesn't care and neither do I. There is one very critical point to a victim's background. It's exactly what Sheryl McCollum just said. Does she go from place to place willy-nilly? Does she not report into her mom? Does she not call home or FaceTime? Does she hold down a job? Is she predictable? Or does she club every night? Does she sleep in one place, one apartment, one flophouse after the next? That matters when you're

trying to catch a kidnapper. That's completely true. I mean, the reality is, is that there is some amount of inquiry into what happened to the victim in terms of, you know, is this somebody else's responsibility or did they just disappear because it's their habit to do things that are unpredictable? In this case, we know that she was very predictable and had a very stable lifestyle. So there's no reason to believe that she would just up and leave her family. Another thing about this woman, Gypsy, just gorgeous woman, hardworking, a smart degree, everything you could want. Another thing about her is that she always kept in touch with her family.

So when mom, who is back home, all from the Philippines, when she doesn't hear from her, she's suspicious. She has no idea what's going on. And Dr. Angela Arnold, that's excruciating. You know, my children just went away for the first time without me as a volunteer to scout camp. I nearly died not being there. Of course, they were fine. And I knew up here they'd be fine. But being away from them for the first time and me not being there to save them if they needed it, it was excruciating. Can you imagine what this mom's going through? Oh, dear God. And she's so far away. And there's no way for her to get here.

And when she gets here, who's she going to talk to about this? And then there's the whole lot. I mean, there's a language barrier in all likelihood, right? Well, she must just feel at such a complete and utter loss it's helplessness that feeling of helplessness is overwhelming crime stories with nancy grace we're talking about a beautiful 28 year old woman jeff c Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We're talking about a beautiful 28-year-old woman, Gypsy Kalinji, that goes missing seemingly into thin air. And this woman has traveled the world.

As a matter of fact, she travels all the way across the world after meeting her true love online. And she gets to the U.S. and it works. They marry. So how does she go missing once she makes it to the U.S.? And we're talking about her mother being so far away, not being able to be in touch with her. It reminds me a great deal, Cheryl McCollum, of Natalie Holloway's mother when she describes finding out Natalie is missing on a high school trip in Aruba. And here she is in near Birmingham, Alabama, and it's not right there on the scene. It also reminds me of Jessica Chambers' dad when he finds out something is horribly wrong and he's racing to the hospital after his teenage daughter, the cheerleader, has been burned and trying to get there to see her before she dies. That feeling of helplessness, it's awful.

It is awful. And again, just like with Natalie Holloway, she was dependable. She didn't come home late. She didn't sneak out. She didn't have unreliable boyfriends. So her mama knew the instant they said Natalie didn't make it to the airport, she knew something is bad, wrong. Just like this mama. Her daughter has traveled the world. She's, you know, perfectly competent going from point A to point B. So if she does not show up somewhere, something is terribly wrong. And she always kept up with her mama through social media, online, you know, that telephone.

And again, once she broke that pattern, mama knew something was wrong. You know, it's an innate feeling, and you cannot deny it. And I've said it over and over and over that when you have an instinct, don't disregard it thinking it's just a hunch. Follow it. Those instincts are born of thousands and thousands of years of evolution. It may be something you saw out of the side of your eye, a feeling you got, a smell, a sound, a memory. It matters. And this mother knew something was horribly wrong when she did not get that FaceTime, did not get that phone call. Take a listen now to our friends at Colorado Springs PD. On April 4th, 2019,

Colorado Springs Police Department initiated a missing person case report for 26-year-old Colorado Springs resident Jepsey Kalungi. Several unsuccessful attempts have been made by family and friends of Ms. Jepsey Kalungi in the days leading up to the report to make contact with her. The responding CSPD police officer conducted a preliminary investigation and initiated a missing person report. Through that investigation it was discovered that the last contact anyone had with Jepsy was on March 20th 2019. The last contact was in March. Joining me an All Star Panel to make sense of what we know, Nicole DeBoer-Hutchglobe, Dr. Angela Arnold, Dr. Todd Barr, Cheryl McCollum, Sidney Stell.

The fact that she is not reporting to work, the fact that she has not called her mom, very, very big indicators that something is horribly wrong. Now, I want you to take a listen to our cut number three. This is Sam Kramer, KOAA News 5. RG tells me Gypsy moved to the U.S. in 2017 from the Philippines. She fell in love with the man she met online, Dane Kalungi of Colorado Springs, and married him. RG says he's the last person to have seen Gypsy and told her he thought Gypsy was headed back to the Philippines, Mexico, or Chicago to visit friends. She hasn't been seen since. She always talked to me. She always messaged me. So I wonder at the time why she's not online. You know, that is a big

indicator now, whether you're online or not with such heavy social media presence, which is prevalent in our day and age. If you're offline, people find that very, very unusual. And let me talk to you, Cheryl McComb, about what we call routine evidence. And I don't mean typical run-of-the-mill evidence. I mean evidence of routine. Like, what's your routine, Cheryl McCollum, when you wake up in the morning? Or dare I hear it? Start with a little bit of the hair of the dog that bit you?

Little hair of the dog that bit you. Little hair of the dog. Talk to Walt. You know, he always laughs, and I'll have a half a cup of coffee with him. And then, you know, I'm going to be at the police department on duty by 7 o'clock. So that's going to be my routine. And sometimes I'll call my sister Charlene because she's a trauma nurse, and we can talk on our way to work because we're both up driving that early and just checking in on the events that are coming up in the weekend or whatnot. But again, there is that pattern.

And people nowadays with these cell phones, their patterns are very, very clear. And you can go back and see exactly how they operate. So even during COVID, when people were in the hospital and they couldn't have company or visitors, they were still on their line posting, hey, this is what's going on, pray for me, I'm leaving the hospital Friday. So those habits, people make deposits at the bank if they have their own business on Wednesdays or Fridays.

People go to church Wednesday night or Sunday morning. They are creatures of habit. They go to the same grocery store. They go on a girl's trip once a year. So again, with this missing person, when the husband says she's gone to the Philippines, Mexico, or Chicago, is her passport missing? When is the last time she ever took a trip without him? Well, they haven't been married that long, so she hasn't had a chance to really establish a lot of a routine with him. But I could see her going to visit friends in another city.

Also, what you're saying rings true regarding Philippines. You have to get your passport straight. You've got to get your flight plan for overseas travel. So that takes some doing. You don't just walk up to the Delta counter and go, hey, I want to buy your next flight home. That's something typically I think you would prepare for. But she says she's going to see friends, and I'm guessing he is assuming that it's Philippines or Chicago or Mexico. But take a listen now to our friends at Fox 21, Hour Cut 6. Friends and family of Gypsy Kalungi have been

wanting answers. You know, she's a human, you know, she just believes in love. Renee Ramos was close to Gypsy and spoke to her days leading up to her disappearance in March of 2019. She claims Gypsy wanted to work on her marriage. After her disappearance, her friends tried to reach out to him for help, but he told them Gypsy left for either Chicago or the Philippines. I asked her, like, so why do you really have to go back with him? And then she said, I want to try the Philippines. I asked her like, so why, why do you really have to go back with him? And then she said, I want to try the relationship. I want to give you, I really want to give him a second chance. And you know, as a friend, okay. Okay. Sydney's still joining me from KRDO News Channel 13. You can find her at krdo.com. Sydney, how long had they been married at the time she disappeared?

So they had been married for about two years at that point. Huh. Well, let me just analyze that for a moment. Two years, and you already have to give him a second chance? Is he still under the warranty, Cheryl McCollum? Because if you're already having problems, I mean, like with a car, don't you have a six month to a one year warranty you just take it back yeah lemon loss that's right thank you I

should know that having worked to the Federal Trade Commission lemon law that should be like ingrained in my memory but if you're already having problems where you're giving the person a second chance and you're just two years in Cheryl the first 12 months should be a given. I mean, that should still be the honeymoon phase for sure. So you're talking about the last 12 months. What has happened? And again, we're going back to patterns. How often are they arguing? How often does she maybe spend the night elsewhere or does he spend the night elsewhere? We don't have any of that spending the night out in evidence.

No, no, I'm saying that would be a pattern you would look for if they're having trouble. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For everybody just joining us, we are in the midst of an investigation trying to determine what happened to a gorgeous 28-year-old woman. Her mother lives halfway around the world, is distraught when Gypsy doesn't call. That's her habit. That's her habit. That's her routine. Now, Gypsy, smart, has her four-year degree, beautiful.

All her friends love her. She's well-traveled. She's well-versed. She's extremely articulate, finds true love online, travels all the way across the world to marry the husband. And they do and seemingly are happy but then suddenly she goes missing and of course the first person you'll look at is the husband now we learn those two uh let's say hit a rough patch and gypsy have been talking to her bestie about giving the husband a quote second chance I'm all for second

chances I'm all about second chances depending on what was the problem initially Sydney still KRDO do we know what the marital problem was why he needed a second chance we don't know specifically what their issues were I did talk to friends and family and they told me that he was very controlling with her. So he was very specific about who she could see and when, how she used her phone, who she talked to on her phone. So we know that was an issue.

We also know that they did file for divorce in October before she went missing. And then in January, less than two months before she disappeared, they vacated that so they were having issues but it seemed like they were reconciling okay Sidney Stell you know I'm sure I drove every one of my hundreds of witnesses insane especially sorry Dr. Barr the medical examiners because I had no idea what they were saying. It was like another language to start using Latin phrases in medical discussions.

I'm like, whoa, whoa, stop. If I don't understand it, I doubt people on the jury are going to understand it because they're going to be just like me going, what? With you, Sidney Still, here's your problem. You know too much. So I'm drinking from the fire hydrant from you. So could you just slow it down? And I want to hear that line by line, everything you just said, if you don't mind. Sorry.

No, you're good. Yeah, I've been covering this case now and talking to friends and family. So I apologize. I get a little. I love it. I can't get enough information because you know what's interesting? In a case, a missing person, a murder, any case, that once was able to figure out, not from my own deductions, but from a piece of evidence left behind at a scene, one earring,

explained to me how a woman who to this day remains a Jane Doe was killed, where she was killed. It was very important because I was onto a serial killer. That one earring made a difference in the way the case played out. So just tell me again, Sydney. I'll try to take it in a little bit better this time. Okay. So when I spoke to friends and family, they said that Dane had been really controlling of Jepsey.

So he was really specific about who she would talk to, who she would see. He was specific about how she used her phone. And so her friends told me they felt like she was in an abusive and really controlling situation. So in October, Dane and Jepsey filed for divorce. So they've been married about a year and a half at this point. Then, you know, they go through some of the filing process and then by January, they vacate that. So they decide that they're going to be back together. And less than two months later, Jeffy vanishes. No one knows

where she goes. No one hears from her. And really no one hears from her again. Nicole DeBoer, Hutch Globe, joining me, veteran criminal defense attorney out of Houston former prosecutor and you can find her at Houston criminal defense com Nicole now I know you and I are on the two different sides of the fence but I think we can agree on one thing do you ever get sick and tired whenever a woman goes missing somebody has to say oh she probably ran off with a boyfriend. Did they always say that? There's all kinds of excuses, you know, that the person made a choice, that they have, you know, elected whatever their punishment was or the disappearance. And in this case, there's just so much information that points to something, a crime, you know? And I think that this is going to be a lot more complicated once we get the details.

You know, it never fails, Cheryl McCollum, when a woman goes missing. People still say it about Stacey Peterson. Drew Peterson's what, fifth wife? I mean, Kathleen Savio, wife number one, was found drowned in a bone-dry bathtub covered in bruises. He got convicted on that finally. There are multiple wives, and now Stacey goes missing. To this day, people still suggest she ran off with a boyfriend, leaving the children behind. I mean, she didn't. She's dead and he killed her. Okay. Why do they always say that about women? Now you've got Gypsy vanishing and people, some people, not me, I hope not you, Cheryl McCollum, suggest that, oh, she just had a boyfriend. She did not have

a boyfriend. There's no suggestion of a boyfriend in texts, in phone calls, nothing. There's zero evidence that she had a boyfriend. Plus, that would not explain why she would stop communicating with her mama. And that doesn't explain why she would stop going to work. And that doesn't explain why she would stop communicating with friends. None of that pans out. None. Now, Dr. Angela Arnold, you're the psychiatrist. You're the MD. I'm just a JD.

But I can see people that have maybe never been, like, lived with someone or been in a serious relationship before rankling at the confines of marriage. You've got to come home to the same place, to the same person, person to the same supper table to the same issues every single day or bail and I could see Mary I don't know marriage stats I only know that mine still together you know praise God but I could see where people marry and they're like whoa this is not what I thought it was going to be. I'm out of here. So filing for a divorce at a year and a half, that seems about right. The new shiny part is wearing off, and now you're stuck with the bills and the laundry

and the cat and the dog and the plants and the this and the that. I could see that happening. But also, this woman was described as a very responsible, very smart woman who's taking care of her family. It doesn't sound to me like she married this man to gain access to the United States. Well, wait a minute. Nobody even said that. You know what? I'm shocked at you. Nobody's even said that. I know that. That's what I said. I said, it doesn't appear that way. But what I'm saying is- No, you put that in everybody's minds. This woman needed a U.S. citizenship like a fish needs a bicycle. Didn't need it. She had everything

going on for her back home. Exactly. And guess what, Nancy? That also means to me that she saw the danger in this, okay? This is what I'm dying to say. When people want to give someone a second chance after they've done something really horrible to them, part of the reason for that is because they're still under that person's spell. This man has taken this much time to control her and isolate her, and she's still a little bit under his spell, and she doesn't want to seem like a failure to her family back home. So he convinced her to pull that divorce decree away. I can promise you that.

You know, I would have a problem with this, with the controlling part. Dr. Angela Arnold, the controlling part. I have a friend whose husband wants to pick out her clothes and jewelry. Oh, God. Yeah, I know. I mean, right there, I say, bye-bye. But that's him, and it's one of his idiosyncrasies. Now, this guy wants to control who she talks to on the phone.

What did you tell me, Sydney, still? She said he was controlling, and how was he controlling? He was really, the way the family told me is they said he was really specific about the way she communicated. So who she talked to, when she met up with them, how she used her phone. He was really controlling specifically about her cell phone. And you know, Nancy, controlling leads to isolation. Right now we're talking about him controlling her. It would have led to isolation.

On her part, trying to make him happy, she cut down on her. Yeah, okay, I get it. She cut down on communications to keep him quiet. Guys, take a listen now to our cut five. This is our friends KRDO, News Channel 13. It's been more than two years since anyone has heard from 26-year-old Gypsy Kalungi. Family friend Rachel Jackson said she moved from the Philippines to the United States a few years ago. I know that she has a decent job in the Philippines, that she has a bachelor degree,

and she came over here to the U.S. just because she wanted to be in the U.S. She came over here and married Dane because she fell in love with Dane. Dane and Gypsy were married for about two years before she disappeared in March of 2019. Just days later, Dane moved out of the state to live in California. What? Sidney still? Hold on just a moment. He moves? Sounds to me like he's not expecting her to walk back in the front door. Yeah, very quickly. And that was one of the big things that police, obviously they felt very suspicious, but she goes missing on March 20th. And by early April, he has moved to California to live with his dad. You know what this reminds me of? Sidney's tale reminds me of Scott Peterson, who did murder Lacey and Connor, his wife and unborn child.

I don't care what some cable outfit special wants to say to try to get ratings. He did murder her. But remember, everybody, that Lacey goes missing and then he suddenly tries to sell her car and orders the porn channel like he knows she is not coming home also tries to sell the house I mean it would be a cold day in H-E-L-L-I walk in and catch my husband watching porn on the family tv that's not going to happen over my cold dead body and see that's what Peterson knew. So she goes missing and he moves within a couple of weeks not only moves but moves out of state. Did I understand that correct Sidney Stell? Yeah his dad lives in California and so he moved to live with his dad in California

not even a month after she goes missing. goes back there. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take a listen because suddenly there is a break in the case. Have you ever heard the phrase, loose lips sink ships? Believe it. Dane Kalungi admitted to his ex-wife, Elaine, that he killed Jepsey. Dane's ex-wife told police and then she helped them record a phone call between herself and Dane. In that call, the record showed Dane said he killed Jepsey,

then drove her body to a remote part of Teller County where he buried her. Jepsey Kalungi's body has not been found. Did you hear that? If you didn't hear that, take a listen to Daniela Leon at Fox 21. Through a recorded conversation, CSPD was able to obtain a confession. Kalungi said he grabbed Jepsey and, quote, tried stopping the words from coming out of her mouth and realized he did it for more than a second. Kalungi went on telling his ex-wife he went out to a remote area in Teller County and buried her body after digging a grave for hours. Colungi was arrested in New Mexico shortly after the recorded conversation took place. Colungi then told his ex-wife quote he didn't mean to do it and Gypsy didn't deserve it. Now of Jepsey also reached out to Dane Kalungi to ask for Jepsey's whereabouts.

And he told them she had either left for Chicago or the Philippines and failed to give them an address. Police say this case stemmed from a domestic violence abuse case. Now, court documents also state Kalungi was also abusive towards his ex-wife. Well, I know this will make everyone cringe or as my children say, that's so cringy. When you don't know a horse, look at his track record. He had a history of domestic abuse beating his ex-wife. I got another question. Cheryl McCollum, you and I have worked the streets as investigator and prosecutor for a really long time. Why do people have to yap? That's why I always said there's no way that OJ Simpson was framed by a group of police because not one of them for this long could have kept their yap shut or not do a $20 million book deal. It's not going to happen.

Somebody is going to talk. They have to. They can't help themselves. And here he calls and tells his ex-wife he murdered Gypsy. And let me just say once again, the ex-wife comes through. You pick the person that you were abusive to. Feel your guts about how you killed your latest wife. Yeah. So that's fabulous for the prosecution, first of all. And second of all, that leads to the police being able to not only move this person to the only suspect and person of interest, but gives them a way to now get some search warrants to see what they can find out that he might still possess. You know, Sidney's still joining me, KRD on the case from the very, very beginning. This also reminds me of Peterson in the sense that Amber Fry, his mistress, while he was still married to Lacey, actually recorded their conversations, which helped make the case. Now, this ex-wife in the current case and the case against Gypsy's husband, Dane Kulungi,

she risked her life because she agreed to record a conversation. If they had not arrested him after that immediately, then he could have come and killed her. Yeah, I mean, that's a possibility. When you look at the past abuse, I mean, it's pretty hard to look at. I mean, she, in this arrest affidavit, she goes through, you know, I remember being strangled by Dane. I remember going in and out of consciousness. Her twin sister who lived with them remembers Dane picking her up by the throat, holding her like half a foot off the ground. So he was very abusive to her. And she said that that abuse started back in 2006. So I, it's hard to imagine that when she finds out Jessica was

missing and she hears Dane talk about how it happened, that she didn't think, wow, that could have been me. Joining me right now, Dr. Todd M. Barr, Deputy Medical Examiner, joining us out of Cleveland. You can find him at Thin Places, Essays from In Between, or also on Twitter at Todd Barr M.E. Dr. Bar, thank you so much for being with us. Now, this body, we think, has been buried for a period of time in a grave that took, quote, hours to dig. Given the circumstances that you know, do you believe we will ever be able to prove cause of death once we find the body if the COD is strangulation? Well, you know what I'm going to tell you, Nancy. Say it with me.

I'm going for the hyoid bone. I am looking for the hyoid bone. If this man is strangling her, I read the affidavit, and he said something about looking directly into her eyes as he was doing this and caused severe damage. And you know damn well that his hands on her neck, exerting that pressure, is going to break that hyoid bone. So I've had several cases where people have been buried for up to two years. One case was a Russian woman who was killed by her husband and wrapped in a sheet and buried three feet deep next to a riverbed. She was only in the ground for about eight months.

But remarkably, when we dug her up, she was still pretty well preserved because of the cool earth that was surrounding her for that whole entire time. And she wasn't exposed to the heat and to the flies and the maggots and all of that. Another case I had, the person's flesh had kind of disintegrated into sort of a peanut buttery mix, but we still had all of the bones and we can extract DNA from the bones, from the fingernail beds, and we can do facial reconstruction with forensic anthropology. We can certainly elicit certain patterns that might be found in a skeletonized body, particularly the hyoid bone. If we have a fractured hyoid bone, that's all I need.

Wow, you're awesome. I could listen to you talk all day long. Now, not everybody wants to hear a medical examiner talk about dead bodies, but I think you're awesome. For those of our listeners that don't know, what is a hyoid bone? So the hyoid bone, if you take your finger and run it along your jawline, and you've got sort of the angle of the jaw that makes sort of a U-shape or a V-shape in the front, well, right behind that at the floor of the mouth is where the hyoid bone sits. And it's attached by a number of different muscles

that hold the whole floor of the mouth together. And that's what gives you the shape of the floor of the mouth and the prominence where your chin comes out. So it really is a supportive structure. But it's right above the trachea or the windpipe, as people would call it, and it's intimately connected with all those neck structures. So if you're affecting pressure onto those structures, they're very delicate cartilages and bones in there, and they're very easy to fracture. So is the hyoid above the Adam's apple, between the Adam's apple and the chin? Yes, exactly.

Is it more on your throat or more under your mouth, under your tongue? It's under your tongue at the base of the... It's like where your neck... If you go up, you find your Adam's apple. And then at that angle where your your chin starts to jut out that's where the hyoid bone lives okay between those two like equidistance it's pretty well centered right under your chin got it um so let's just say that she is buried in this grave that he's talked about told his ex

wife back because he couldn't possibly keep his mouth shut. Do you believe she will be skeletonized? It depends on the conditions of where she was buried, how deep she was buried, what the aeration was like. It's quite possible that she, if it's a very arid or dry area, she could be mummified. If she's still wearing her clothing, certain parts of the skin may be a little more preserved than other parts of her body. It really depends on a lot of conditions. But regardless, even if she's completely skeletonized, there's still so much information that we can get.

You know, she may even have, if he's beat her before, she may have skull fractures or facial bone fractures. There could be all, you know, we would be looking at all kinds of surfaces of different bones to look for any kind of injury pattern. And here's the rub. In our jurisprudence system, a person cannot be tried and convicted based on a confession alone. That's the law, whether we like it or not. That's why we need that highway law. That's why we need it. Truer words were never spoken.

Dr. Todd M. Barr, joining me out of Cleveland. Truer words were never spoken. We need that body. We wait as justice unfolds. If you have information, please call 719-444-7000. Repeat, 719-444-7000. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.