Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'MOUNTAIN DEW BABY BOTTLES' MADE BY MOM KILLS DIABETIC TOT

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Karmity Hoeb becomes lethargic. The normally busy 4-year-old is not active at all. After four days, her symptoms getting worse each day, Karmity turns blue and stops breathing. Her mother finally calls 911 for help. First responders can revive the little girl, who is taken to Children's Hospital. Karmity Hoeb seems malnourished, and her teeth appear to be rotted out.  Doctors order a brain scan and determine that the little girl with a big personality is brain dead. An autopsy is done and reveals that Karmity died from a diabetes-related brain injury. Investigators determined that Karmity has never been formally diagnosed with Diabetes.  Investigators discover her mother, Tamara Banks, has been feeding the 4-year-old a mixture of Mountain Dew and baby formula through a bottle long after she should have been weaned off the bottle, causing her teeth to rot. Her teeth are almost all rotted, but no record can be found of her parents taking her to a dentist. Joining Nancy Grace today: Troy Slaten – Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC; Twitter/X: @TroySlaten Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst drbethanymarshall.com, Instagram & TikTok: @drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive, Appearing in the latest season of “Paris in Love” on Peacock – BOOK: “Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor Dr. Michelle DuPre – Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff’s Department, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;” Forensic Consultant Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, a Mountain Dew bottle baby, four-year-old little girl, Carmody, dead of acute diabetes after mommy feeds her baby nothing but Mountain Dew baby bottles. The baby's teeth rotted out. What, nobody saw that? All I can say tonight is there is a very special car to hell for mommy. And daddy, you're riding shotgun.

Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Her overall care was so poor that it resulted in her death. Her diet was absolutely terrible. She has what's called baby bottle caries. It's sort of tooth decay that's caused by drinking a sugary liquid, usually out of a delivery system, sort of like a bottle.

Well, it turns out this four-year-old child was drinking Mountain Dew out of a bottle every day. So much so that it rotted all of her teeth away. That's our friends at Local 12 WKRC-TV. And you are hearing the description of what was done to a four-year-old little girl, Carmody, a.k.a. Mountain Dew Baby Bottle Baby. Mountain Dew Baby Bottle Baby? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are hearing right now. But first, what happened when this little baby girl was rushed to the hospital?

Toward the end of January, Carmody Ho becomes lethargic. The normally busy four-year-old is not active at all. After four days of her symptoms getting worse each day, Carmody turns blue and stops breathing. Her mother finally calls 911 for help. First responders are able to revive the little girl, and she is taken to Children's Hospital. Carmody Hobe seems malnourished, and her teeth appear to be rotted out. Her overall care is so poor, it results in her death. Her diet was exclusively baby bottles full of Mountain Dew. Really? How many grams of sugar are in this thing? Whoa, 77 grams of sugar in a 20 fluid ounce bottle. The baby's teeth were rotted out after drinking Mountain Dew baby bottles.

She had exclusively Mountain Dew baby bottles. She got diabetes and she died after the diabetes affected her brain. That doesn't just happen overnight. Okay, with me, an all-star panel, Carmody Hobe, a four-year-old little girl, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, now dead. Back to our all-star panel. First, I want to go straight out to Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative journalist and star of the Outlier podcast. You can find her on YouTube. Lauren, thank you for being with us. What happened?

Yeah, so this is a case of neglect, as the prosecution stated. And look, poor Carmody. There was no evidence that her parents had ever taken her to the dentist before. She didn't go to the pediatrician for regular visits. I mean, the photos you see of Carmody, there's Dorito bags everywhere. There's the Mountain Dew stacks. I mean, it's so sad. So this was a true case of neglect here. And as you stated, her mother wasn't even going to take her to the hospital until she saw that she wasn't breathing and she turned blue. And then obviously

we know she later passed away. It's completely tragic and could have been prevented. Again, with me, an all-star panel. I'm trying to figure out how this happens. What do we learn upon autopsy? Listen. Carmody Hobe arrives at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center after being revived by first responders at her home. Doctors order a brain scan and determine that the little girl with a big personality is brain dead. An autopsy is done and reveals Carmody died from a diabetes-related brain injury. Investigators determine Carmody has never been formally diagnosed with diabetes. Okay, let me understand what I'm hearing. Joining me, Dr. Michelle Dupree,

a renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and importantly, former detective with the Sheriff's Department. She is the author of multiple books, including Money, Mischief, and Murder, the Murdoch Saga. That's all about Alex Murdoch. Do I need to relive that?

Double Homicide. But important for me, Homicide Investigation Field Guide and Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide. How? I don't totally understand diabetes. I know you can be born with it. I know that it can develop over a period of time. I know my dad was borderline diabetic and we had to watch every gram of sugar in his yogurt, in his food, in his everything. But how does diabetes affect your brain? I don't understand that, Dr. Dupree. You know what? You just need to start at the beginning about what happened with Carmody, Dr. Dupree, if you don't mind. Sure. Well, diabetes is basically too much sugar in your blood. Sugar is used as energy for the cells. Your liver processes the sugar. When there is not enough insulin to help the liver do that, then the liver becomes overburdened and actually begins to burn fat

instead of sugar for energy. When this happens, the person goes into something called ketoacidosis and keto is from the fat. You know what, Dr. Dupree, really? Ketoacidosis? Dummy down, woman. I'm just a trial lawyer. I did not go to medical school. I haven't performed 10,000 autopsies like you. How does diabetes affect your brain? Because when that happens, the blood brain is broken and that is toxic to the brain when you have too much. And so your brain begins to shut down. In fact, some of the symptoms of this are lethargy. You become convulsive even. And eventually you go into a coma

because it depresses your central nervous system. And then if it's not taken care of, if that isn't resolved, then you can actually die from this. And unfortunately, that's what happened in this case. Too much sugar. Listen to our friends at Crime Online. The cause of death for Carmody Hobe is listed as diabetic ketoacidosis, which

spread to her brain. Imminently treatable, her death could have been prevented had she received proper medical care. While denying Carmody proper medical care, her mother, Tamara Banks, did not deny her own medical care, regularly filling prescriptions and even getting her doctor to make a house call to their apartment to make sure her health needs were met. What? So no pediatrician, no dentist, no anything for Carmody? While the mom actually somehow finagled house calls from a doctor? I didn't know they even did that anymore in addition to lauren conlon joining us investigative journalist and dr michelle dupree dr bethany marshall is with us renowned psychoanalyst star on tv author of deal breaker went to Work on a Relationship and When to Walk Away. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com.

Dr. Bethany, so mommy actually somehow wrangled house calls from doctors, but she never thought to say to that doctor, hey, could you look at my little Carmody? What's wrong with her? She's lethargic. Sometimes she seems like she's in a coma and all her teeth have rotted out. You think she might do that? Nancy, did you notice in the picture of Parmody sitting in the tub that it was equipped with a handicap handle?

It had that white handle going over the side. So that tells us that somebody in that household was being cared for. The mom was extremely obese and probably needed that ladder to get in and out of the bathtub. Back on the mom. It's me, me, me, me, me, me, me. According to this mommy, forget about the baby. What were you saying, Dr. Bethany? Okay. Well, so the mom was taking care of herself medically and that, but because of that, we can rule out mental illness or personality disorder. She knew what medical care was, and she purposely deprived Carmody of that. Fatal starvation is extremely rare.

It's the most rare form of child abuse. And you know what I find in clinical practice, Nancy? Children who are hit, children who are beaten, children who are raped fare better than children who are starved. And the reason for that is that when the child is raped, beaten, I don't know, verbally abused, they at least know they exist in the eyes of the parent. They know there's some attachment, even if it's a rageful or a sexual attachment. Whereas when the child is starved and neglected, the child feels like an it. The child feels like there's no attachment with the parent. The parent does love them and

that they're not even a person. And so these types of neglected children grow up into adults who are very, very compromised. By the way, this kind of starvation disrupts all of the brain circuits, the developing brain. So even if Carmody had lived, she would have had gross dysfunction in the areas of learning, problem solving and attaching to other people. Speaking of the pictures, Dr. Bethany Marshall, that's a really good idea. I'm sorry, Liz, can we go through the photos one by one? Because I'm noticing something in these photos. Let's see the photos. Okay. Look around at everything you see.

Lots of toys, but you can't see Carmody's teeth. Keep going. She's got a smile. Okay. There you go. They're rotting. Why are her teeth rotting? Is she not going to the dentist? And of course,

okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. This little girl only has many of her baby teeth. She doesn't have all of her adult teeth and they're not falling out naturally for the tooth fairy to show up. They're rotting out. There's mommy in the background teeth falling out some of these we got from the funeral home look around you heard Lauren Conley okay that one strikes me you can buy multiple beanie babies but you you can't take your daughter to the dentist or the doctor in every shot she has teeth problems and she's getting thinner and paler in every shot here she is with a little it looks like a disney looking guitar and toys in the background but in one, look how pale and look at her teeth.

And some of them that Lauren Conlon pointed out, you see junk food everywhere lying around. Right there, the teeth are practically all gone. But mommy's smiling for the camera, like she doesn't know anything is wrong. So what happened to baby? Oh, there you go there. Look at all that junk food. I would do a backflip if my children were having junk food day in, day out. As a matter of fact, Dr. Bethany Marshall, let me go back to you. The other day, John David and I had it out. My son, now 16, one of my twins, had it out means we sat at the kitchen table and had a discussion, shut up. We don't say that. And the other S word,

not what you're thinking, get your mind out of the gutter, is soda. I got wind that John David Lynch, my big boy, had gotten soda at school. Okay. So then I had to show him all the articles online about what it does to your stomach how it rots nails if you leave the nail in the soda for an extended period of time just on and on and on about soda of course he probably ran out and got another one as soon as I wasn't around. But that said, what this child had nothing, nothing but baby bottles full of Mountain Dew. Dr. Bethany? Nancy, this child was not a person to them. This child was an it. And all those toys you see, you can get toys for free. You can go to a shelter. You can go to a toy giveaway. You can go to the neighbors. You know, toys get tossed around and, you know, passed from household to household.

So that didn't cost them anything. Food cost them something. And they resented any need this child had. They didn't want that child there. This child was a prop. And Nancy, look at how Carmody is smiling in all of those photos. Tragically, tragically, she loved her parents, even though her parents did not love her back. That's what children do. They want the love of the parent, even when the parent does not care about them. But this fatal starvation, I think, is worse than just deprivation. These parents wanted to see this child deteriorate because there were visible signs of it.

I think at some point they wanted this child to die and they were hoping she would just go away. And the toys is to distract her so they don't have to play with her or take care of her. The lack of medical care for Carmody shocks investigators as they find Carmody's mother, Tamara Banks, had nearly lost a child 10 years before the death of Carmody in much the same way. At that time, a four-year-old son of Banks falls into a coma from previously undiagnosed diabetes. Even after that child recovered, Banks continued to neglect his medical needs, failing to have him seen by a doctor and never attended any of his follow-up appointments. As is so often the case, this is not the first time. A baby girl, Carmody, dead after living off nothing but Mountain Dew baby bottles. Nothing. Troy Slayton is with me.

High profile LA criminal defense attorney. It's Slayton lawyers named after himself. No one would claim that's narcissistic at all. But Troy Slayton, this is not her first time at the rodeo. Did you hear the reporter, the investigative reporter? They find out that Carmody's mother, Tamara Banks, nearly lost a child 10 years before

Carmody's death the same way. A four-year-old son, same age as Carmody, falls into a coma for previously undiagnosed diabetes. Even after that little boy, Banks, recovered, she continued to neglect his medical needs. A, why did the children get to stay in the home? But B, there's no way she can claim what? Diabetes?

Her son, then four, almost died the very same way. What about that, Troy Slayton? What are you going to do at trial now? After I bring in that similar transaction on you? Because you know I will. The death of any child is a tragedy. And the death of that beautiful little girl is absolutely a tragedy. But for us to sit here on our high horses with our advanced degrees, you and me with

Juris Doctorate degrees, everyone else here with Doctorate degrees, and you with the smarts to know that you're not going to feed your child soda, I don't think that this was an issue of a mother not loving her daughter. This is a situation where somebody was just dumb. Somebody was really, really stupid. And stupid does not equal criminal. This is somebody who clearly wanted to provide. She wanted to provide for her kid. There's toys everywhere. There's smiles. Yes, there's Doritos stained fingers, but this is a person who was stupid, not a person who wanted her child to be dead. Are you through? I hope so, but I'm just checking. Irv Brandt joining me. I'm so glad he's with us tonight. Former U.S. Marshal in the International Investigations Branch, author of Flying Solo, Top of the World.

That's part of a series of solo novels. Oh, here's a new one. Solo Journey, Buddha Nights, a Jack Solo mystery novel. Okay, Irv Brandt, I'd love to keep going on and on about all of your accomplishments and all of your books about Jack Solo, aka you. But Irv, how many times have you heard a defense attorney, be they a horrible defense attorney or an excellent defense attorney renowned in his field like Slayton, say, they're not bad. They're just stupid. You think stupid people can't commit horrible crimes like letting this little girl die?

Nancy, you're exactly right. Stupid is not a defense. And for defense counsel, I don't have an advanced degree. You see my degree over my shoulder. It's a bachelor's degree. I don't have a doctorate like the rest of you. And so I'll tell you from my point of view, this is horrifying and this is criminal. It's not neglect. It's not a mistake. This is criminal intent when you're talking about this type of abuse. And unfortunately, this little girl, I can't believe that a family member or a friend or someone didn't call Child Welfare Services. If she would have lived long enough to get into school, perhaps that could have saved her life because I know teachers and people like that. You know that this would have been reported if she would have made it into school.

And, you know, possibly, you know, teachers, health care workers would have been able to see her in this tragedy could have been prevented. Well, I guess so, Irv Brandt. All of her teeth were rotting out. That have to know something was very, very wrong. Dr. Michelle Dupree, again, and I know it's really hard for you with all of your medical degree and experience and education to please talk regular English, not Latin phrases or medical phrases, please. What does diabetes do to you? Why are this child's teeth rotted out? Nancy, it's because of the sugar. As you know, sugar causes cavities in our teeth, and she had no dental care whatsoever. She had too much sugar. In fact,

36 grams of sugar for a woman adult is the max. She had much more than that in the Mountain Dew and it basically rotted out. But what does it do to your body? Like why did she and her brother both go into a coma? Again, because of too much sugar and not being able to handle that in your body. Let me see. This is why I had to go over every line of an autopsy report with the doctor until I could understand what she's saying. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me take you back in time. Remember Steel Magnolias? Remember when Julia Roberts, who was

diabetic, fell over and died? She went into a diabetic coma and she died. Okay. Why did she die? I know it's because you have too much sugar. I get that. But what happens to your body? I mean, I can say she had too much sugar, but what physically happens to your body? Why do you go into a coma? Because there's too much sugar overload and your liver then starts to break down fat in our body. Fat produces acid when it's an overload. And that acidic part in your blood then causes you to go into this coma. If it's not resolved, you die from that. Okay.

I'm starting to understand a little bit of what you're saying. This little girl is dead after a very short life subsisting on nothing but baby bottles of Mountain Dew. That's what she had for four years. But what more do we learn about the fingerprint crime committed on her brother? Tamara Banks' oldest son, Jerry Banks, says what happened to Carmody isn't a first for his mother. Jerry Banks says 10 years ago,

his little brother went lethargic, wouldn't move. The only thing he would respond to is sugar. Jerry Banks says this goes on for about 36 hours until he forces Tamara Banks to take his brother to the hospital. Doctors were able to save the boy who was four years old at the time, the same age as Carmody. Looking into the diabetes related brain injury death of Carmody Hope, investigators find the little girl has never been formally diagnosed with diabetes. They also discover her mother, Tamara Banks, has been feeding the four-year-old a mixture of Mountain Dew and baby formula through a bottle long after she should have been weaned off the bottle, causing her teeth to rot. Her

teeth are almost all rotted, but no record can be found of her parents taking her to a dentist. Okay, Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me. Okay, Dr. Dupree, sorry, but I feel like I'm wrestling you on this, but I'm not giving up. I'm going back in the ring with you, Dupree. Does, okay, I know diabetes, you can be born with diabetes, you can develop diabetes, even if you have a good diet. But can a regular diet of nothing but this Mountain Dew, how many grams of sugar does this? 77 grams of sugar in one of these. So if she had three or four, five or six baby bottles a day of this, sometimes mixed with formula, can you create diabetes because of your diet? Can you eat so many sweets and just so much Mountain Dew that that gives you diabetes?

Yes, essentially, Nancy, you're absolutely correct. Because again, the sugar overload is what causes you to start then not being able to handle it. And your body starts breaking down fat, causing the acid. You know, our body is in a state of equilibrium between acid and base. And when one of those is out of whack, then it causes serious injury to the body. And in this case, it's over acid. And that's what caused the body. And in this case, it's over acid. And that's what caused the death. I've been trying to figure out exactly how the mom could have not known what was happening.

Back to Troy Slayton, dare I do it. Troy, your argument that, hey, she doesn't have a PhD like all of you do. I hear you. And if I were you, since you have nowhere else to go, I'd probably argue the same thing if I was a defense attorney. But that said, duly noted, what about the fact that the same thing happened a few years before with Carmody's older brother when he was four years old? He went into a diabetic coma after being fed the Lord only knows what and almost died. And the mom was forced to take him to the hospital by family members. He was in a diabetic coma. Same thing. So how can you argue with a straight face?

She didn't have a PhD where she knew this because it happened before to her son. So this is what we would call in the defense business, Nancy, a bad fact. That's something that you're going to have to deal with. This is a woman who clearly couldn't deal with her own self. All the pictures that you show, she is morbidly obese. Her own teeth are decaying. She's brought into courtroom in a wheelchair. She can't even support her own weight. This is not the picture of health.

Guess who else just got wheeled into the courtroom in a wheelchair? Harvey Weinstein. You think I care that he now has his lawyers buy him a top of the line wheelchair to get rolled into the courtroom? H-E-L-L-N-O. And the fact that this mom comes in in a wheelchair? Really? You know what? I don't care.

I don't care because even in a wheelchair, this mom could have ordered this child food. She didn't have to prepare it. And in all the photos you see, she's not in a wheelchair. She's in a wheelchair now, now that she's charged with the death of her child. She couldn't keep her house clean. She didn't know how to manage her own weight. She didn't know how to manage her own teeth. Her husband, also not the picture of health. These are not people that knew how to take care of themselves, let alone know how to take care of a child. You really think that's going to win over a jury? Okay, you know what,

Dr. Bethany Marshall, can you hear him? Yes. It's like a mosquito buzzing around my head. I keep hearing it and I can't catch it and make it stop. Respond to him. Okay, Nancy, when defense attorneys use the word stupidity, it drives me crazy because this was not stupidity. That's not a defense. This is a mother who resented the needs of her child. That is the psychology of this. She did not want to provide for her child. So she was hoping that her child would die as soon as possible. That is the bottom line. You can't get around it. If you look at, okay, Troy, look at any scholarly article on fatal starvation.

And what you'll see is called spill aside. Oh my goodness. She had every toy available for her child. She had the Mickey Mouse guitar. She's in a sea of Minnie Mouses. No, no, no. A lot of those came free from McDonald's. Go ahead.

Okay, so if you look at the literature on fatal starvation, it's interchangeably used with filicide. So all the scholarly literature really links starving a child to purposely killing the child. This is everywhere in the literature. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do research when you go into court. You cannot get around the psychology of this woman. This woman was also a hoarder. So she did not even take care of her house, herself, her child. But I want to say furthermore, she did not want this child to have needs. She did not. She used the cheapest form of keeping a child alive so she wouldn't have to spend her own money. I mean, how shallow is that? And you know what? Hey, okay. You know

what, Troy? All those toys, she was trying to keep the child busy so she didn't have to take care of the child. I would like to point something out, guys, very quickly. Troy Slayton, you got to think again about your argument. And I know what you're doing, Troy. You're doing what any good defense attorney would do when your back is against the wall. You have nowhere to go. You make something up. My mom, my brother and sister and I are first generation college. Okay. My mother didn't have a PhD. She didn't even have bachelor of arts or bachelor of science or four years. She didn't even have a bachelor of arts or bachelor of science, a four-year. She didn't have an associate's degree, two years. Okay. She grew up working on a farm with an anonymous donor

providing her music lessons so she could go on to play cello and the symphony and the piano and the organ where you play with your hands and your feet at the same time. She never, ever had the kind of education you're talking about, nor did my dad. But on the weekends, you know what we did while other kids are out at arcades? We were in the fields of our friends, our neighbors and our church friends, because they would allow us, because my mom played for the church for free, to pick produce and then we will cook it and then we would have it. Fresh veggies, fresh fruit that we would pick ourselves.

I'm not telling you a hard luck story. I'm glad that happened. But my mom didn't have what you're talking about, a PhD. Her mother grew up working in a tile factory for Pete's sake, working a farm. They didn't have a PhD, but they cared about their children. And you want to tell me everybody on that jury wouldn't care about their children? It's complete BS. I don't think you're being fair to all the parents out there that didn't have the benefits and luxuries my parents gave me to get through law school.

Because most parents have basic common sense, which clearly this woman didn't. Most people have a basic modicum of an understanding of basic nutrition, but that doesn't mean everybody does. I would venture to guess that this woman wasn't working and that she was on some sort of disability welfare program. She was just being given money. She didn't have the street smarts that your mom and grandma had. She didn't have that institutional knowledge in her family. She just gave the child what she thought was needed in that moment to make the child happy, to put a smile on the kid's face. When you give a kid candy, does the kid smile?

Or does the kid say, oh, no, I don't want to eat that candy. That's not healthy for me. The kid's going to gobble it all up, whatever they can. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Carmody dies as a direct result of neglect and abuse from her parents. Carmody dies from diabetic ketoacidosis, or DKA, which is an extreme complication of untreated diabetes. Left untreated, it can cause coma and death, as in Carmody's case. So day by day, she watched her little girl

get more and more pale. She watched her daughter's teeth rot out one by day, she watched her little girl get more and more pale. She watched her daughter's teeth rot out one by one, and she continued to feed her nothing but baby bottles full of Mountain Dew, 70 plus grams of sugar for one of these. How many of these did the baby girl have every day? And it's not just Carmody. Carmody's older brother went into a diabetic coma when he was also four years old and had to be rushed to the hospital in a coma. He lived. But after that fateful night, mommy continued to ignore the child's medical needs. And hey, Daddy, I'm not letting you off the hook. You're going down too.

You're just as responsible as Mommy. I'm trying to figure out how this was kept from relatives, family, friends, neighbors. I'm very curious why people don't come forward. Irv Brandt is joining us who has traveled all around the world apprehending dangerous criminals. You know what I think part of it is, Irv, and the reason I introduced you that way is people have in their minds who is a killer, what that killer would look like. You might think of a sex pervert as a guy wearing a trench coat at the corner of a children's park. You may think of a killer as showing up in a balaclava over his face or carrying, you know, two guns. You don't think of the mommy in the home next to you or in the apartment next to you.

The mommy that smiles at you as she goes to her car during the day or you spot her at the grocery store. You don't think of her being a killer, right? But you've seen killers in all shapes and sizes way in. No, that's exactly right, Nancy. It's just what you said. In your mind, you have a preconceived notion of what this person should look like, what this person should act like, an evil person, you know, something from the movies, something from a novel. And there is no type. I'm sure this woman, the neighbors, if you went and talked to the neighbors about how nice she was, and they can't believe that this happened because they dying right in front of them. To watch her

waste away like she did until she finally went into a coma and couldn't be revived. That's the part that I just can't understand. And it's so tragic because it was so avoidable. Parents that think they're doing the right thing, could they really be thinking that? I don't believe it. This mom is by far not the first to kill their child by what they feed them. Listen. Sheila O'Leary calls 911 in Cape Coral, Florida, seeking help for her 18-month-old son who is cold and not breathing. Authorities arrive and the malnourished child is pronounced dead. O'Leary tells police they are vegans on a raw food diet of mangoes, bananas, and avocados,

but the toddler had not eaten solid food in a week due to teething, so he had just had breast milk. The medical examiner says the boy weighed just 17 pounds and died from malnutrition. Sheila O'Leary is convicted of first-degree murder and more, sentenced to life in prison. Okay, what about that, Slayton? Feeding the baby a raw food diet of mangoes, bananas, and avocados until the baby dies. What about them? They're enlightened vegans. It's the same.

It's awful. It's tragic. And it's awful. It's tragic. And it's clearly people that don't understand how to nourish a human. I mean, we can have days of discussions versus veganism, versus carnivore, versus all types of other diets. But clearly, this is just another parent who didn't have the brains to know how to take care of themselves, let alone take care of a child. I bet you that mom wasn't living off nothing but soda. I bet she was having full on meals and the dad too. So why not the child, Dr. Bethany Marshall? You know, this mother,

besides not wanting this child to live, the mother was not bonded with this child. I've treated mothers in my practice who are not bonded with their children. They love to go out in public, go to parties, smile, get a lot of attention. One woman did this past week. A female patient said, you know, my happiest moment today was when I was grocery shopping and saying hi to everybody and seeing people I knew. Meanwhile, she spoke viciously about her child. So not only are these mothers not bonded, but I think we have to consider that homicide can be formulated at an unconscious level. So while she may not even consciously say, oh, I'm going to starve my child to death,

at some level, she's thinking, oh, goody, my child is not going to starve my child to death. At some level, she's thinking, oh, goody, my child is not going to be here at some point. That's why a fatal starvation, child neglect through starvation and filicide are all linked. They are one and the same. They're not two separate things. Homicide and, go hand in hand. Carmody Hobe is a four-year-old with a big personality. Nicknamed Boogie, she loves being silly and taking pictures, smiling big and saying cheese. Waking up with great joy and energy, she loves playing with her Mickey buddies and racing car. Carmody is the type of child that warms the hearts of everyone she comes in contact.

You know where we got those words, those exact words? From four-year-old Carmody's obituary that was written by her mom and dad that killed her by Mountain Dew. The Mountain Dew baby bottle baby, four-year-old Carmine, is now dead from horrible implications resulting from diabetes brought onto a four-year diet of nothing but Mountain Dew and a baby bottle. Sometimes mixed with formula, but it's by far the first time a parent has killed by ingestion. Listen. An obese three-year-old weighs 66 pounds. His mother is warned about proper diet. She feeds him junk food, telling teachers at school he's too sickly to do any physical fitness. As a teen, he's hospitalized with a heart condition brought on by obesity. In the hospital,

mom sneaks fast food to her son until he dies of heart failure at 15. Parents of another morbidly obese boy are warned he could die if he doesn't lose weight. At 7, his body mass index should be 14. His is 30. Parents ignore doctors and give the boy junk food until he weighs over 175 pounds at 10 years old and has a heart attack and is declared brain dead. Dr. Bethany, what is wrong with these people? You know, it's hard to even say, Nancy, you know, a little hard because there's so many motivations. But always, always at the root of it is not wanting the child to have needs and feeling that the child is unconditionally bad. I once treated a mother who was not bonded with her children.

They were all in a business together. And whenever it came time to pay the children their paychecks, she would come in and insist to me that her adult children were stealing from her. Okay. So she didn't see that she was providing for them. She thought they were stealing from her. Furthermore, children that are subjected to fatal starvation, you almost always see that there's a padlock on the fridge. Have you seen that where the parents put chains on the fridge? Because they do not want their children to have food. They do not want to provide.

Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and a former detective with the Sheriff's Department, you've conducted well around 10,000 autopsies. Does it ever matter to you clinically or medically whether the perp has a PhD like Troy Slayton was pointing out or not? No, Nancy, it never does. And sometimes in these cases, we also find that this can be a personality disorder of the mother who is trying to get attention for herself because her child is always so sick. It's called Munchausen by proxy. And that may also be a fact. But no, this is absolutely, she's able to take care of herself. She sees a doctor. That's no excuse. The stupidity is not an excuse. Investigative journalist Lauren Conlon, what happened to these two demons from hell, the mom and dad? So Tamara got sentenced nine years and her husband is due back in court in the middle of June

and he could face up to 13 years. So let's see what happens. I'm ready. Nine years, nine years, Carmody is dead and she got a reduced plea to involuntary manslaughter. On nine years, she'll be out in about four. Count on it. We stop and we remember American hero, Deputy Sheriff Michael Brown from Cordele, Georgia. Just 26, Sheriff Brown shot and killed in the line of duty on a traffic stop. An Army National Guard vet, Deputy Sheriff Brown leaves behind a grieving mother and stepfather, Christina and Tom, brothers Jason and Jeff, and his beloved dog, Jenny. Sheriff Ty Brown, hero. I want to thank all of our guests for being with us tonight, leading us on a very rocky path to justice. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend.

This is an I Heart Podcast.