Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - MULTIMILLIONAIRE PERV JEFFREY EPSTEIN NECK SNAPPED. What will autopsy reveal?

Episode Date: August 16, 2019

Broken bones in millionaire Jeffrey Epstein's neck leads to much speculation that he did not commit suicide. Joining Nancy Grace today to look at the evidence is California Prosecutor Wendy Patrick, Forensics Expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Florida Medical Examiner Dr Tim Gallagher, Former FBI Special Agent Jeff Cortese and Radar Online Reporter Alexis Tereszcuk.           Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. and again this is a percentage call more likely that it was a homicide than a suicide but it can be both it can be either rather it can either be a suicide or a homicide still that hasn't been confirmed i am now more suspicious than ever that this could be a homicide number one because of the bones that answer is going to come to us bill because if someone is attacked you see signs of the attack on the body that hasn't been discussed discussed yet. It hasn't been released yet. I'm waiting to see that. If someone holds you down and strangles you, you see evidence on the body, bruises. Now, my source, undisclosed source, is not going to go into that right now.

That question will be answered. Wow. You're hearing it from an expert. That was Dr. Mark Siegel on Fox News. If I had a nickel for every time I studied an autopsy report regarding strangulation, asphyxiation, suicide, I'd be a millionaire right now. And that's what it's coming down to. Did multimillionaire perv Jeffrey Epstein commit suicide or was he murdered? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. At the get-go, I was so irritated with all the pseudo-intellectuals, especially talking heads, yakking about how conspiracy theories

of a murder were far-fetched. That's not true. Our minds should be open to any and all possibility. With me, an all-star panel to figure it out as best we can, California veteran prosecutor Wendy Patrick, professor of forensics Jacksonville State, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher. Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent. And joining me right now, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter, Alexis Tereschuk. Now, Alexis, I'm looking to you for the facts, but let me just point out at the get-go, Epstein was deeply considering cooperating, naming names of the powerful people that he handed over,

that he trafficked underage girls for sex reasons. He had already been found unconscious in his prison cell earlier. He indicated to some he had been attacked. He was taken off suicide watch. He was in isolation. Isn't that unusual for a suicide risk? The cameras malfunction. Are you kidding me? This is where El Chapo was held this is where Madoff was held this is where ISIS and Al-Qaeda have been held I mean even the guys in Mexico

who let El Chapo ride off in a tunnel in a motorcycle had video of him going down his super secret hole he built by his commode. Really? I mean, a murder? Okay, Alexis, bring me up to date. Jeffrey Epstein was found dead in his cell, the Metropolitan Correctional Center. This, as you said, is where the top criminals in the whole country are held. The thing was, though, everybody... In the world, Alexis? I think, okay, check your IFB. I just said ISIS, al-Qaeda, al-Chapo from around the world are held here.

They are monitored very carefully. They don't commit suicide. How did he commit suicide? And not this night. That's what you say they're monitored very closely this night Jeffrey Epstein was not so what police sources have said is that the two officers that were assigned to monitor him were asleep for three hours they these were guards that were not okay no wait a minute whoa whoa whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. Right there, I believe that. To Jeff Cortese, FBI special agent, you know I'm on the side of law enforcement, okay? But falling asleep on your post, I could totally see that. Totally. They're overworked, they're underpaid, they've worked night shifts, blah, blah, blah. But we're all overworked. Everybody on this panel

is overworked. Alexa Tereschuk, she has a little boy and a husband and a house and a this and a that and a full-time job. You don't think she's tired? I hardly even know my name. This morning, I couldn't even remember what day it was I was so tired. Of course they're tired. I could totally see them falling asleep. You know, that's why you have things like mucinex to jack you up, to keep you awake. No, you're absolutely right. And it's something that, you know, I've been through three law enforcement academies and in both academies, complacency is what they drill into our heads is the root of, you know, our biggest vulnerability. Complacency kills. And in this case, you know, it's really hard to tell if whether or not they were awake, Jeffrey Epstein

would still be alive, but sleeping through it certainly didn't help. But what is the likelihood, Wendy Patrick? And Jackie pointed this out. I can't take credit for it. Remember, Jackie, nobody likes to know it all. But that said, Wendy, they both fall asleep at the same time. Yeah. With Epstein, who's already been either attacked or tried to commit suicide a couple of feet away. They both fall asleep at the same time. And the camera malfunctions. Isn't that too much coincidence? Well, that is exactly why we're talking about it as much as we are, as we should. When we house inmates, we take a duty to protect them, sometimes in this case, from themselves. And that means we don't let things happen, like have two guards that are overworked.

Or remember, one of them was actually assigned that shouldn't have been. It was a substitute. A substitute watching the highest profile prisoner, perhaps in the world at this point in time. Those are the kind of facts and circumstances that make this such a priority. And remember, even the Attorney General Barr is saying, we're going to look into this, and I cannot wait, and I'm sure we'll be talking about it on the air with this same panel, what they're going to find as to how this perfect storm was able to be put into effect that allowed Epstein to kill himself, if in fact that's what happened.

Well, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. I'm going to get into it with forensics in just a moment, because I've got a lot of questions about that hyoid bone for Gallagher. But, Joe Scott, I mean, I've never been a conspiracy theorist. You know why? Because in my experience prosecuting, for how long have I been prosecuting? I got a law school in 1984. People can't keep their yap shut.

That's why I always say there was no conspiracy of a cover-up in O.J. Simpson. Cops had no conspiracy. By now, somebody would have sold a million-dollar book and told the whole thing, okay? The statute on that's probably passed people cannot be quiet do i think that trump or clinton had him killed no i don't they may have wanted to but no i don't think that they did i don't believe in conspiracies but i'm not convinced this was a suicide, Joe Scott. But look at all of these circumstances, all the coincidences. Yeah, and there's tons of them floating out there. For the past week, I've been doing nothing but entertaining phone calls from people that believe that there is a conspiracy.

And listen, Nancy, when it comes to investigations, I apply Occam's razor, and that philosophy holds that we look for the most simple, obvious thing that we can, and then we work out from that. Do you realize how complex this would be, how complex an undertaking this is that a lot of people are putting forward relative to these conspiracies. I've had people telling me that he's not actually dead, that he's still wandering around out there somewhere, or that he arranged all of this so that he's off of some profit. I think I saw him at Krispy Kreme Donuts. I'm pretty sure that was him. And guess who was with him? Elvis. Hey guys, it's all going to boil down in my mind to the forensics. And when I say I don't think there's a conspiracy, I don't mean there's some vast right-wing or left-wing conspiracy, but I do think there is a chance he was murdered. I think it's all going to boil down to one thing, the hyoid bone. crime stories with nancy grace

we're still awaiting the release of jeffrey epstein's official autopsy report from the medical examiner but the washington post citing two people familiar with the findings reports the autopsy shows multiple broken bones in his neck including the hyoid bone near Epstein's Adam's apple that break can occur in hangings but is more common in those who die of strangulation remember the New York Post reports Epstein killed himself by tying a bed sheet around his neck to his jail cell bunk bed and then strangling himself by kneeling toward the floor. Hanging many times occurs in a prone position. You just simply need to get something around your neck, tie it to the bottom bunk and just slowly slide off the bunk until you slowly pass out. You can

be dead within 10 minutes. You are hearing Brian Yanis there at Fox News with Jack Donson, prison consultant, but with me right now is the medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher. Talk to me, Dr. Gallagher, about the hyoid bone. Well, the hyoid bone is a small bone in the front of your neck. It's just above the Adam's apple. And it does not support any weight of the neck. It's just basically a point of not support any weight of the neck. It's just basically a point of contact for the muscles of the tongue. So it allows the tongue and the muscles around it to

operate. Okay. You know, I love you, Dr. Gallagher, but I don't know anything you just said because I was too busy trying to find an Adam's apple. Now, hold on. Wait, wait, wait just a moment. You know, I thought the hyoid bone was just below the adam's apple just above it actually are you sure could you please consult your what so i'm about two inches off uh so just above your adam's apple there's a bone in your neck right Right. Why can't I feel it? Because it's a very thin bone. It's a very flexible bone, and it's surrounded by a lot of soft tissue. So it's very difficult to actually feel it. But it's there on x-ray, and it's there in real life.

Why would the hyoid bone make a difference in this case? Because he had several snaps in his neck, which I find very disturbing. Well, you know, just two things, two points to make, I would guess, is that the actual report from the medical examiner is pending, and it's unusual to release any information from the autopsy during a pending report. Are you suggesting that his neck was not snapped in several places? Well, I would say it's curious as to how these details got released to the public on a pending report. But be that as it may, there was also a report of him having a neck injury two weeks prior. So if in fact the bone is broken, when was it broken? Was it broken two weeks ago

during the alleged injury in his cell? Or is this a fresh break? So the medical examiner's report can help elucidate that. Let's go with fresh break. Let's analyze that first. And I'm going to go with the reports that we are getting out of Washington Post that there were several snaps in the neck and that the hyoid bone was broken. What does that say to you? Well, it says a few things. Number one, I would like to know where the bed sheet or the alleged bed sheet was around his neck when they found him. Was it high up on the neck? Was it above the level of the hyoid bone?

Was it below the level of the hyoid bone? Or was it at the level of the hyoid bone? So where was this bed sheet? And then this bed sheet would have to have left a mark, a very deep mark in the muscles of the neck. So it would be very easy to determine where the bed sheet came across his neck. So if it came across his neck at the level of the hyoid bone, and the hyoid bone was fractured, then yes, that is suspicious for suicide. Not fractured. Not fractured.

It was broken. And in laypersons, I mean, I don't know if that's fracture and break is the same to you, but to me, I think they're different. But I don't understand in the suffocations, asphyxiations, strangling deaths that I have prosecuted, and there have been many, they did not necessarily involve breaking of the bones. Now, we know that he had particular hemorrhaging, which is very simply, that's autopsy talk for the blood vessels in your eyes pop because your air supply is cut off. But that could be from suicide or murder.

That means nothing to me. What does mean something to me is that his neck had been broken in several places, including the hyoid bone. That means something to me because in the strangulations, the homicides I prosecuted, I see a very big difference in homicide versus suicide. With suicide, I don't believe I've ever seen a broken bone in the neck, much less several, Dr. Gallagher. That is true. In my practice, I unfortunately have done hundreds, maybe pushing up to a thousand autopsies on people who have hang hang themselves or who have died of asphyxiation. And then, um, those who have hung themselves from a ligature, um, I, I, I can't recall a single incident, maybe one or two in the distant past, you know, where I found a fractured hyoid bone, but in cases where somebody was strangled manually, um, a documented cases where somebody

was strangled manually, I have case is where somebody was strangled manually. I have found a fractured hyoid bone, a freshly fractured or freshly broken hyoid bone. You know, guys, you know, when I listen to a medical examiner, it's like playing an orchestral symphony. I could listen to him all day long. This is Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. On the other hand, just like opera, they're speaking in Italian. What are they saying? Joe Scott, break it down, please, in regular people talk. Remember, regular people talk. Go ahead. I think Dr. Gallagher's done a fine job. Yes, he did, but break it down again. I will break it down. And understand that the hyoid is so highly positioned.

And when I say high, just remember, it's more proximal or closer to the jaw than it is to the chest. Okay? And it's deeply seated in the neck. As Dr. Gallagher pointed out, it's surrounded by all manner of soft tissue. As you know, it's the only bone in the body that doesn't actually articulate with another bone it's free floating it anchors our tongue in place did i not just tell you regular people talk why did you say it's not articulating to another bone okay there's why do you say things like that i don't know how your marriage has survived you need to

work on communication okay all right All right. You've got a beautiful wife. Don't mess it up by talking like a bone articulated. What? It is, it is seated in a very, uh, in an area that is just surrounded by soft tissue. That means the, the bone itself, it's bird-like in shape. Uh, it's not connected to any other bone. It's just kind of free-floating in there, and it serves a single purpose of anchoring our tongue. You know, Dove telling what Dr. Gallagher had said, it's so deep in there that it takes a tremendous amount of force to break this. I think that in my experience of working for the corner in New Orleans and for the ME in Atlanta, it's that I worked other than a really bizarre car accident where a guy's neck slammed into a steering wheel in a 1974 Pontiac that were not associated with some type of manual strangulation. Probably if you go back in time when we still did judicial hangings, where guys

would drop through a trap door in a gallows, I could see the hallway being fractured like that. But let's keep in mind, Nancy, Epstein was in this jail cell with a bunk, and that's what he was supported off of. The only thing that I can think of, the only thing that I can think of relative to that would generate this kind of force is if he in some way stood on the bunk and jumped off. But still, that's kind of running far afield here, I think. Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here. I remember every night before I would go to work at CNN HLN, I would bathe the twins, and that was a special time for me anyway. I would teach them their ABCs, their 1-2-3s.

Lucy would only eat dinner in the bathtub. I had to feed her dinner in the bathtub. I would give her one full hour and John David one full hour. Then I would actually go to work soaking wet. It was one of the happiest times of my life. And I guess that's why I gravitated to Emily Mason. Emily Mason, gorgeous young professor at a local college, Swainsboro, Georgia, East Georgia College. I traveled to Swainsboro to investigate her death, and this is what I learned. Emily was bathing her two little girls in the tub. When someone came into her home, chased her from room to room, the last thing her little girls ever heard from their mother was Mommy running, screaming for her life. Those are their vivid last memories of mommy.

She was brutally murdered. And you may ask, where was her husband during all this? Well, her husband, also a professor at East Georgia College, a P.E. professor, a P.E. coach, happened to be gone. He just happened to leave for a local Walmart or Home Depot or Lowe's, and in that short window of time, he comes home to find his wife dead in the home. The children, one was nonverbal, could hardly describe a thing. What happened to Emily Mason? Her story really has touched me. The mystery surrounding the death, the brutal death of this young mom, Emily Mason. This Saturday, we will be Facebooking, Instagramming, and tweeting live throughout the episode.

This Saturday, Oxygen, August 17, 6 p.m., Eastern 5 Central. Please join us. Thanks, friend. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Multimillionaire was supposed to have been checked by guards every 30 minutes, but that procedure was not being followed the night before he was found, according to the New York Times, which also reported the facility had transferred his cellmate and allowed Epstein to be housed alone. The report says Epstein had been put on suicide watch after staff found him semi-conscious in his cell just over two weeks ago in an apparent suicide attempt but recently he was taken off it. Sources at the jail tell CBS News they often rely on certain inmates to assist guards in monitoring other inmates due to a lack of manpower. According to those sources Epstein had told authorities he feared powerful people might be trying

to prevent him from cooperating with authorities. You are hearing our friend at WLNY TV that's Rena Roy. Now take a listen to my longtime friend from Court TV at CBS News. The details also that have come out that I find frankly very disturbing was the condition of how he was monitored at the MCC, which is the Metropolitan Correctional Center, on the SHU, as we call it, the Special Housing Unit, where the most high profile, the most notorious criminals or people facing possible prosecution are housed. El Chapo was on that floor. Paul Manafort is still on that floor. And in fact, if I were Paul Manafort right now, I would not be very comfortable because you have guards, one of them, one of whom was really not a correctional officer at that point. Their excuses,

they were very understaffed. They were working multiple overtimes. And so what that tells me is they were asleep. Well, I agree with Ricky Klingman, and that practically never happens. I want you to also listen to what Jessica Layton at CBS2 News has to say. The attorney general promised a thorough investigation, and this is really just the tip of the fallout from this apparent jail cell suicide. The Department of Justice confirming late this afternoon the two guards who were supposed to be keeping a close watch on Jeffrey Epstein have been placed on leave, and the warden of the Metropolitan Correctional Center has been reassigned, at least temporarily. All this after what Attorney General William Barr described as serious irregularities at the federal detention

center where Epstein died in Lower Manhattan Saturday. Those guards were supposed to be checking on the multimillionaire inmate every 30 minutes and reportedly hadn't done so for hours. Now remember, Epstein had already tried to take his own life weeks earlier, but had since been taken off 24-7 suicide watch. Again tonight, two guards have been placed on leave. The warden at MCC reassigned. Likely more fallout to follow. Right now I am waiting with bated breath for the full autopsy to be released because like many medical examiners, I want to see what else it reveals. Was there bruising anywhere else on the body to show Epstein had been attacked. Now, the autopsy is being performed by Dr. Barbara Sampson, the chief medical examiner in New York, but under the

watchful eye of Dr. Michael Bodden. I know Bodden very well. He used to work with his wife, Linda Kinney. She was an analyst and legal analyst, a well-known defense lawyer. Bodden, don't always agree with him, but he's brilliant. Alexis Derechak, can we talk about 2 plus 2 equals 4? Because before I go back to Gallagher and Joe Scott Morgan for autopsy issues, Alexis, the camera malfunctioned? Are you kidding me? And one of the most highly, a Supermax. They have a malfunctioning camera.

I mean, this is she we're talking about, where there is a special housing unit. And I know he had been off Suicide Watch, which was a huge mistake. But under Suicide Watch, your sheets are made of paper. So this type of incident doesn't take place. But I want to get back to malfunctioning cameras in cells where El Chapo was kept. Are you kidding me? Well, that's what makes this all so suspicious that the cameras were not functioning. And also the fact that this, this guy, Radar, we were the first to report that he attempted suicide a few weeks ago. And then just less than two weeks later, he convinces the prison that he doesn't need it anymore. He spends the entire day with his attorneys and he's paying them to come in.

So he isn't spending any time in his jail cell. And he is known all of a sudden they're saying, oh, he's happy. He's go lucky. He's smiling. Nothing's wrong with him. This guy evaded punishment for decades. And then all of a sudden is able to con people into thinking that he was absolutely fine again. But yes, you're right. The cameras malfunctioning. That's what people are saying. This is a completely non-working prison. And they're saying maybe it's underfunded. I don't know the reasons, but a guard that isn't normally there, cameras that aren't working, and then a policy that completely failed. You're right.

Why did he have a bed sheet? And they're saying that he was found kneeling down so that he kneeled. And how can that force possibly cause death? Well, comedian Robin Williams, as I recall, Wendy Patrick, tied the necktie to a doorknob and sat or kneeled and then just went forward. As I recall, I imagine that's what they are claiming happened to Epstein. Wendy, is that what happened with Robin Williams? Well, you know, as our two medical experts on the panel have been explaining, there are several ways it could have happened. One thing I would have thought is maybe there wasn't a camera pointed

at him. Maybe he wasn't checked on. But had he jumped off his bunk and done it that way, the noise might have been something that at the very least might have brought guards at least running or at least gotten somebody's attention in order to save his life or at least gotten there before it was too late. What we're operating on now, and this is so frustrating in the day and age in which we live, is sources familiar with the autopsy results. Can you imagine if the autopsy finally comes out and more, so much easier to understand because these sources perhaps aren't completely briefed on it because the necktie question, Nancy, and some of the other things that we've seen over the years doesn't really fit with the fact pattern that we have here with Mr. Epstein. So there has to be more to the story. And I cannot wait to find a little

bit more details to figure out, you know, cameras aside, maybe they didn't check on him, but how did he accomplish it in a facility that is supposed to be suicide-proof? All our facilities are supposed to be suicide-proof. You're not supposed to be able to easily kill yourself. Well, you're right about that, Wendy, because we have determined that there has only been one successful suicide in the past 40 years at Manhattan Correctional Center, much less at SHU, Special Housing Unit. And I want to go to Jeff Cortese about this, the coincidences, okay? Multiple breaks to Epstein's neck, okay? That typically does not happen in a suicide. This guy was leaning, Epstein, the multimillionaire child predator. Apparently, their theory is, was leaning on his knees and just leaned forward. That is not enough to cause

multiple snaps to your neck, period. The camera's not working, malfunctioning. The guards happening to be asleep for three hours. Both of them happen to get the drowsies at the same time. Then we learn Epstein was in, quote, great spirits just before his death and actually believed he was going to be bailed out to cooperate with the feds. He had met for 12 hours starting at 8 a.m. with his lawyers. He had not been in a cell and was convinced they would win an appeal to get him out on bail. He was planning to cooperate and bring down powerful men in our country and beyond. There's just no other cellmates saw what was happening? It's just Jeff Cortese, you're the former FBI special agent. This just doesn't feel right to me. It just doesn't add up. Yeah, Nancy, I think just as a rule of

thumb, if it doesn't feel right, it's probably because something's not right. And this particular incident is riddled with red flags. And you pointed them out with the cameras not working, the sleeping guards, so forth and so on. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein was a prime candidate for taking his life, an extremely wealthy pedo facing prison. And we all know that life as a sex crimes convict is not pleasant in prison. So the future was not bright for him. Why he was not in a single cell is a huge, huge question mark. Ultimately, I think the FBI will be looking at this as a possible corruption case. Was it a breakdown in protocol or something else? Whether suicide or

conspiracy murder, the guards here are going to be critical to that investigation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Guys, before we get back to Epstein, may he rot in hell, I want to thank our friends, Jeff Hurley and Craig Stevens at WRAW Newsradio. It's 1340. For adding Crime Stories to their lineup, if you are in Reddy, Pennsylvania, please tune in to WRAW. Jeff and Craig, it's great to be

with you. And now to Epstein. The FBI raid on the mansion uncovered sex toys, a life-size female doll hanging from a chandelier, and hundreds of lewd photos. Bill Cosby, who is now serving three to ten years in prison for sexual assault, used to live in a townhouse directly opposite the mansion. These are pages from Epstein's Little Black Book. They were first obtained by the website Gawker. They show numerous entries for the rich and famous,

Donald Trump, actor Alec Baldwin, and singer Courtney Love. Page after page are headlined Massage Paris, Massage UK, Massage Florida. Below the cities, a list of first names with contact numbers. There are 21 email addresses and contact numbers in the book for former President Bill Clinton, and he's speaking out today. President Clinton knows nothing about the terrible crimes Jeffrey Epstein is charged with in New York, a statement says. In the

statement, Clinton acknowledges he flew four times on Epstein's private jet in 2002 and 2003. You're hearing our friends at Inside Edition. What the FBI found at Epstein's Manhattan apartment, it's that little black book full of names of rich and powerful people he could clearly bring down. Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter. I think we all know what massage means. I think we do. I don't think that these massages were what they were. And in fact, these are underage girls are victims.

These are teenage girls. They're not 18, 19-year-old teenagers either. These are 13, 14, and 15-year-old girls who've come forward and said that they were victims of Epstein's. This is a terrible, terrible assault that took place by this man who was finally caught and was maybe finally going to have justice against him for these victims. And then this untimely death and his victims are furious about this. They say that they find this so suspicious that when they were finally making headway that he has now died. But they still want to go forward with their cases because they feel like he must be held responsible. His estate must be held responsible. Yes, quite the coincidence that before he can name names and cooperate with the feds, he ends up dead. To Dr. Tim Gallagher,

the medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Gallagher, there was a case of a teen boy, Ronnie White, accused of killing a cop. He died in a Maryland prison cell, apparent suicide. Cause of death changed to homicide. Two days later, when the autopsy revealed his hyoid bone was broken. That's why I keep talking about it. And all of the cases I've ever investigated or prosecuted or covered, you don't see three snaps in the neck and a broken hyoid bone on a suicide. I don't know how to make that any more clear or simple. That is unheard of, especially Dr. Gallagher. If he committed suicide by use of a sheet, which is not a harsh ligature such as a rope,

using a sheet tied to a bed, and then he leans forward. That would not snap multiple bones in your neck Gallagher. Certainly it would not you know and just one point to make is that it really takes about 12 pounds of pressure across the neck to commit suicide. So 12 pounds of pressure will nowhere nearly break any bone in your body let alone your hyoid bone and several other bones in your neck so um him breaking the bones in his neck via the by the way that they claim uh is very very skeptical i doubt highly as a matter of fact i would uh categorically say no it is impossible for the the high bone to break during a strangulation as described by the report, him leaning forward with a chute around his neck. But then add in, according to the Washington Post, additional bones broken, Dr. Gallagher, additional bones in the neck broken.

I just, I don't see it. That would be a very hard sell. And the jump, the theory of jumping off the bed, I'm looking at a mock-up of his cell right now. It's not a bunk bed. He's not up on top of something to jump down from. And even if he was, if he jumped down, he could stand up. The bunk bed is not that tall. So I don't see him jumping down. And my point with that, Dr. Gallagher, is if you could jump off something with a sheet around your neck, you might get that velocity, that force that could snap a bone. But he doesn't have that ability.

It's just all the coincidences together. And you know what's really irritating, Wendy Patrick, top it all off, is pseudo-intellectuals looking down their nose at people just asking simple questions like this, claiming it's a wild, vast conspiracy theory. It's not. It's just that the theory that someone killed him is very plausible. Yeah, it's plausible the circumstances of what makes it unlikely. And that's why it's a fascinating subject. In this day and age where everything we do is on camera, the gap in any monitoring happens to surround the most high-profile federal prisoner that we had at the time.

So it's implausible when you talk about looking at the medical examiner's report and listening to the experts on our panel. And I've learned a lot just from this last hour, listening to all of it takes 12 pounds of pressure. Can you imagine what this would look like in front of a jury, Nancy? There would be demonstrations, there would be models, there would be all of these ways that were put forth. And then it's a circumstantial evidence, or in this case, the lack thereof, that lends this corroboration that we would need to show that it was murder, even though medically, what I'm hearing is that seems to be the more likely explanation for these breaks. Well, another issue is that he was taken off suicide watch by prison officials, and that would include a shrink that would speak to him, analyze him, determine if he was ready to come off suicide watch.

And his own lawyers weighed in that he was ready. Take a listen to Dr. Mark Siegel on Fox. The other suicide watch situation, which is shocking to me as a physician who has dealt with severely depressed and suicidal patients. Six days on a suicide watch, prison officials reportedly removed it. Prison officials guided by who? What self-respecting psychiatrist would say, OK, he's no longer suicidal? There was evidence on July 23rd that he may have done something to his neck or someone did. Right then, suddenly, six days later, he waves his hand, says he's fine, and he's put in an area where ultimately he's unobserved.

And listen to Fox News' Brian Yanis. New DOJ statistics reportedly show 10 out of the 18 guards working at the Metropolitan Correctional Center were working overtime. This is important because there's an investigation now into whether the two guards assigned to watch Epstein's unit fell asleep. The union representing the guards has said Epstein's death is a result of understaffing. Meanwhile, the attention now turns toward Epstein's inner circle, particularly his former girlfriend, British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell has been identified by multiple Epstein accusers as being his primary co-conspirator,

recruiting and coercing underage girls to have sex with Epstein. Maxwell's whereabouts are unknown, but yesterday, the Daily Mail reported she was living with millionaire tech CEO Seth Borgeson in a mansion outside of Boston. We spoke to Borgeson over the phone while he was on a plane taking off for Europe. He denied the report, Sandra, saying he can't remember the last time he saw her. Wow, everybody seems to forget so much in this case. The guards forgot to check Epstein. They forgot to stay awake.

They forgot the paper sheets. Yeah, we'll see what happens when that autopsy comes out. As for where is Ghislaine Maxwell, she was just spotted in an In-N-Out burger stand, scarfing down a burger. She's not worried. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.