Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Murdaugh Murders: Car Movements Poke Holes in Murdaugh Alibi?

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

After very technical testimony on the movements of Alex Murdaugh's car, his best friend took the stand explaining to the jury about finding out about Murdaugh stealing money. Chris Wilson also testified about how he found out about the double murder. Wilson said he never realized Murdaugh had a drug problem. Murdaugh could be seen crying during the testimony.  Later in the day, the son of the late Murdaugh housekeeper, Gloria Satterfield, took the the stand to explain how his family was swindled out of millions by Alex Murdaugh.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Joshua Ritter - Criminal defense attorney, partner at Werksman Jackson & Quinn LLP, former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney, Twitter @joshuaritteresq, joshuaritter.com Mike King - Former Police Commander, Host of ProfilingEvil on YouTube, Author: "Deceived, An Investigative Memoir of the Zion Society Cult”, www.ProfilingEvil.com, Instagram/Twitter: @Profiling Evil Brian Darr - Senior Forensic Engineer & Tire Expert- U.S. Forensic, TireExpert.com Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com  Anne Emerson - Senior Investigative Reporter, WCIV ABC News 4 (Charleston, SC), Host of Award-Winning DAILY Podcast: "Unsolved South Carolina: The Murdaugh Murders, Money and Mystery,” Twitter: @AnneTEmerson  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are coming to you live from the courthouse and the judge has just announced a lunch break. And this time, it really is a lunch break. I'm talking soups and sandwiches that kind of thing not the break we took yesterday. Take a listen to our cut one. Ladies and gentlemen we have to evacuate the building at this time so we'll be in recess until we discover what's going on. That recess was for a bomb threat. As you all know, you legal eagles, there was a bomb threat right in the middle of the state's presentation yesterday. Gee, I wonder who would want to disrupt the state's presentation.

That said, we now know it was a male caller. I believe it was, Christine, wasn't it from area code 843? But we don't know who the caller was, yet they think it is 843. There was no bomb, but it wreaked havoc in the Murdoch prosecution. Well, guess what? We're back at it. And the judge, as always, cool as a cucumber on the bench. But today in court, it was another matter. Damning evidence pouring from the witness stand.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I'm going to go to the experts in just a moment, but I want you to hear what we have learned about Alex Murdoch, high-profile lawyer and legal heir there in South Carolina on trial for the murders of his wife Maggie and adult son Paul. I want you to hear what the state has just put up on the stand. Take a listen to our cut to. Starting at 9.06.48 p.m. and then into 9.06.50 p.m. So at that point, it actually has an engine running event,

so the car has been turned on. Okay, so 9.06.50 p.m., the vehicle is taken out of park, and then let's go down the line, 19.04.19.04. It was the next event where the vehicle went back into park at 9 22 and 45 seconds in your opinion could the vehicle been moving between those two times yes it could have i have no evidence of that roughly how much time passes between the vehicle taking out of park at line 1672 and put back in the park at line 1904 approximately 16 minutes at 9 22 45 pm and that's line 1904 that's when the vehicle had been placed

in the park correct that's correct 9 43 05 the vehicle is now back out of park correct that's correct roughly how much time passes between those two events? Approximately 21 minutes. Okay, you are hearing an expert on the stand, Dwight Falksovke, and he is an expert in car engines, car systems, car navigation systems. Think about it if you have a nav system in your car. It can tell you directions to get where you're going. It can tell you all sorts of things. Your car is actually pretty smart now. And, of course, Murdoch has a car that's the top of the line.

Joining me is Mike King, former police commander, host of Profiling Evil, and Brian Darr, senior forensic engineer and tire expert at usforensictireexpert.com. I want to go to both of you gentlemen. I'll get to the rest of you guests in just a second. Brian Darr, could you interpret what this expert, Dwight Falkowski, was saying? Yeah, it sounded like he was referring to the infotainment system. The infotainment records all sorts of data, has track logs that it can track your whereabouts as far as when you turn the vehicle on, turn it off, where you actually go, don't go, things of that sort. Okay, listen, I may have a double

legal degree, but I don't know anything that you just said. Okay, unless it's got yellow crime scene tape around it. I don't know about it. Can you bring it down for me? He is saying, and I actually wrote it down. He is saying that there was an engine running event. Is he trying to say Murdoch turned his car on? Correct. Okay, that's an engine running event. Is that what you call it?

Yes. Yeah, the engine's running. The car's running. Okay. So the car has been turned on and that is 906.48. And these times are very, very important, Brian Darr. Hold on, Mike King. I'm coming. The vehicle was taken out of park. And let's go down the line, he says. The vehicle was taken out of park and put back into park. Now, how can you, Brian Darr, look at data coming from the vehicle and tell me exactly the second that the car was taken out of park and put back into park. Well, the system within the car, each manufacturer is different.

So each manufacturer records different things. But it dates and timestamps it. So that's why it's recording it down to its relative to the clock in the vehicle. It's amazing to me that all of this is kind of like a black box on an airplane. So they can even tell us. And let me go to you, Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney, partner at Worksman Jackson and Quinn, former L.A. County Deputy District Attorney.

Thanks for being with us, Joshua. I mean, this is like, I know you're a defense attorney, so don't take this the wrong way, which means it's going to be really bad, whatever I'm about to say about defense attorneys. But Joshua, this is a defense lawyer's worst nightmare because Alex Murdoch has given this alibi that he wasn't there at the scene of the double murders. And here you've got somebody like Brian Darr saying, well, he cranked up his car at 906.50. There was an engine running event.

Translation, he turned his car on. What do you do with that as a defense lawyer, Joshua? Well, jurors love this type of stuff. You're absolutely right. It begins to recreate the crime for them. It begins to become alive for them what took place that evening and minute by minute. It's pretty incredible how they can get it down to the exact minute and second of what he was doing and when and start to reconstruct this. And you're absolutely right. If that cuts against his alibi, they got big problems but the thing i'll point out is what you've noticed and what i notice is i think i understand this stuff pretty well but i'm still a little bit lost and i'm a little bit confused and confusion plates right into the defense hand and if they can cause some confusion in the jurors

minds that they don't quite understand what this evidence is telling them is he turning on his car is he moving his car what does that mean to have his engine turn on? If that causes any kind of doubt enough that it rises to the level that they don't know what to believe, that could play into the defense hand. I don't like anything that you're saying, Ritter, but you're right. Because if all of us with, let's see, you've got on our panel right now, you've got a doctor, a medical examiner. You've got Ann Emerson, a reporter. You've got Mike King, a police commander. You've got Joshua Ritter. If all of us don't quite know what was said on the stand, the jury's not going to get it either.

But then he tries to, the prosecutor re-asks the question, how much time between the vehicle taking out of park and putting back in park? 16 minutes. And that's when the vehicle was in park? Yes. And when the vehicle goes out of park? 21 minutes. And I guarantee you, there's going to be a big chart, Joshua Ritter, and it's going to explain it in understandable terms what this means.

Guys I want to hear that sound one more time. Christine do you mind playing it one more time now that we've got a little understanding based on what Brian Dar told us. Starting at 9.06.48pm and then into 9.06.50 p.m. So at that point, it actually has an engine running event. So the car has been turned on. Okay, so 9.06.50 p.m. The vehicle is taken out of park.

And then let's go down the line, 19.04.19.04. It was the next event where the vehicle went back into park at 922 and 45 seconds. In your opinion, could the vehicle have been moving between those two times?

Yes, it could have. I have no evidence of that. Roughly, how much time passes between the vehicle taking out of park at line 1672 and put back into park at line 1904? Approximately 16 minutes. At 9 22 45 p.m. and that's line 1904. That's when the vehicle had been placed in the park, correct? That's correct. 9

43 05 the vehicle is now back out of park, correct? That's correct. Roughly how much time passes between those two events? Approximately 21 minutes. Well, look, I don't have the background that Brian Darr has with TireExpert.com, but I can tell you what that means. Straight out to Mike King, former police commander, host of Profiling Evil on YouTube, author of

Deceived, an investigative memoir of the Zion Society cult. Ooh, I gotta read that. An investigative memoir of the Zion Society cult. Because, you gotta read that. An investigative memoir of the Zion Society cult. Because, you know, I don't get to talk about murder enough all day long. I want to read about it at night. Mike King, I can tell you,

and I sure don't know about brake systems and nav systems like Brian Dar does, but he drove for 16 minutes to his mother's house. The car was in park. The car was turned on. It was in park. It came out of park. 16 minutes later it went back into park. 21 minutes later it came out of park.

And he was at his mother's house 21 minutes. That's the way I'm interpreting it. Does that make sense to you, Mike King? It absolutely does, Nancy. And the thing that I'm so intrigued by this, I'm so glad Brian's on because I don't understand navigation systems, but I understand geography and I understand data. And the data is telling us that there's a period of time that when you map this out on a map and you look at those rural roads and that system that would take him from point A to point B. If in fact he really did show up there, the time fits the story. And this is where I think the prosecution needs to maybe simplify the message to the jury. And I love the idea you had about possibly getting this

on a map and showing them and simplifying it that, hey, during this 16 minute period of time, look how far he could have traveled. Yes, he could have traveled to the location of those homicides. Yes, he could have made it to his parents' home. And after the homicides, if all the theories are correct that the prosecution's laid out, including the theory of stopping long enough to displace a telephone, 21 minutes going back isn't out of line either. And the going in and out of park doesn't bug me too much

because to me that talks to the disorganization once this thing has happened of what am I gonna do? Am I going into park, out of park in those seconds that we're playing back and forth? I think it's a really powerful testimony today. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm cross-referencing right now with the ultimate guide to the evidence, which is my little trial notebook where I'm writing everything down. hey Christine can you flip through and said if you could flip through what was the time that Murdoch called 9-1-1 in my head I've got 10 oh six but I want to make sure of that because I'm not seeing

it in my notes I know that at 9 58 a text comes in from the friend Paul Rogan that was never answered but I need to know when that phone call was made and I'm sorry yes did you say 906 is she saying 9 or 10 10 oh 6 10 oh 6 thanks Christine and now it with that in mind and you know that the last text that Maggie read was at 849 she actively read that text and then everything goes dead at 849 35 she read the text at 849 27 Christine could you put the car movements up there again? That was brilliant, the way that you broke that down. Because that's exactly what the jury is going to want to see so they can understand.

In 903, he turns his car on. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, leave it right there. 903, because we believe the shootings and murders occur at 849. At 903, he's still at the house. He is still at the murder scene. The way I'm reading this, his SUV boots up, car's running 9.06. I wonder what he was sitting there in the car thinking. Oh dear Lord in heaven. 9.06, he pulls, and there he goes. Can I see the next one, Christine? 906, he pulls out, takes it out of park. 922, he's made it to his mother's home.

He parks. 943, it goes out of park. 943, it goes back into park. 944, he's leaving his mother's house. He takes it out of park. All all right let's see what happens then so between 44 he gets back to moselle at 10 p.m the car goes into park and i don't know what he's doing right there going in and out in and out multiple times at 1001 do you have another graph or are you leaving it right there, Christine? Is there another? Car goes into park at 10.01. Oh, you've got some more for me. Oh my goodness. He's going in and

out and in and out of park. But somewhere in that time, he calls 10.06. He calls 9. Now that's interesting because can you reverse it, Christine? Exactly what you did not think I was going to ask you to do, to reverse the graph. Okay, look at this. So when does he even have time to go find the bodies? Because Moselle is huge. It's what, 1,700 acres? So he gets there at 10 p.m. He's still going in and out of park in his car. 10-01, 10-01, 10-01, 10-01. Then at 10-04, he's still going in and out of park. And at 10-06, he calls 911. Did he even go to the kennel? Look at that. He's screwing around in his car. Did he even go and look at the bodies? Because 10.06 is the time the 911 call comes in. You know what?

Mike King, former police commander, host of Profiling Evil evil on youtube don't you just love modern technology oh it's fantastic in these kinds of investigations and as you apply apply the behavioral science to it you really start seeing this disorganization and and i'm with you i wonder if he even got out of the car and headed over there before that 911 call if in fact he returns to that location but i can just see in his mind him putting that thing back in gear and out like what on earth am i going to do and the reality of what's happening is starting to unfold in front of him he just gave me an idea i had a viewer write in on social i wonder if maggie had a fitbit or if Murdoch had a Fitbit that would show us anything. I'm hearing in my ear, Ann Emerson is joining us, WCIV, but I want to go back to Brian Darr.

Ann, we've been talking to a senior forensic engineer and tire expert at, is the name of your business U.S. Forensic? What's the name of your business brian it's us forensic that's my employer and i can find you at tire expert.com okay gotcha brian yes what else what all can uh forensics experts learn from your vehicle oh you can there's quite a bit of information you can learn the uh they have airbag modules that record your speed, say if you're in a collision. The infotainment system that's been discussed at hand has a wealth of knowledge that can be obtained from the vehicle. This is amazing to me. I'm looking now inside of Murdoch's Chevy. Look at that. It's a really

big vehicle and you're looking right at the nav system. So I guess Brian Darv has got the nav system. I think it's got. We're going to be able to tell exactly where he travels that evening and what time. Correct? Correct. Wow. Okay. Ann Emerson has just made her way out of the courthouse thankfully today not because of a bomb threat but for a lunch break and emerson is joining us she has an award-winning daily podcast unsolved south carolina the murdoch murders money and mystery which is awesome and i've really learned a lot from your podcast, by the way. And we're just going through everything that we can deduce from the one witness on the stand, Dwight Falkowski, about the movements of Murdoch's car, his SUV.

It's amazing. It is amazing. And Nancy, I love the way that y'all are taking it apart right at the end, too. I'm learning something from what y'all are talking about as well, because as you said, we haven't gotten that visual representation of what this timeline looks like, except for the work that we're doing ourselves right now. We're all doing the same thing as journalists trying to piece together this timeline that is very specific off of this OnStar car information. You know, it's amazing, as you said, what technology can do. And just

coming up with what you were just talking about, that very, very narrow time period of when that car returned to Moselle and when it stopped, I you know when it stopped I mean that is very important and when that 9-1-1 call was placed now what we're hearing today as I'm just coming out of the courtroom is uh is another layer of this information that we can go into with uh the testimony that has now been given by Chris Wilson in court to the jury we We've heard him in camera without the jury present. We've heard him today. This is his best friend. This is Alec Murdoch's best friend.

Has worked with him for years and years personally and professionally. And he adds to this timeline as well. So we've got a whole nother set of numbers we've got to deal with now. Yeah, you know what I was trying to do in court when everything was happening, you know, pouring from the witness stand was taking notes. And when we were doing the cell phone data a couple of days ago, it was right down to the second at 849-27. Maggie reads a text on the group thread about Mr. Randolph Murdoch's father at 849 35 the friend Rogie Rogan Gibson wrote but it was never read and that's where I'm getting the time of the murders between 849 27 and 849 35 And now we've got this overlay of the car data where Murdoch is in his car

fumbling around at 906. So that's 16 minutes later. He's already, we know he's there because we saw the Snapchat video. We know he's there in the kennels. He's made his way all around from the kennels to where his vehicle is parked. Oh, Christine, could you give me an aerial of Moselle? Because when many of us think about dashing out and getting into our minivan or car, it's just a few steps, but not so with Moselle. It's, oh, wow. Okay, there it is. The cars are parked off to the left and you've got the kennels. It's huge. It's a huge property. So, you've got to get from the kennels where the bodies were all the way to your vehicle by foot. So, you've got basically $850 and then he's in the car cranking up at 906. But yet he says he wasn't there when the murders occurred.

You know, I've got so much more data evidence, but I want to go straight to what Ann Emerson from WCIV just brought up, because she's right. It was riveting. You couldn't take your eyes off this witness testifying. It's Chris Wilson in our cut 10. Listen to this. We were standing around in the driveway talking, and I think it was Lee Cope, Mark Ball.

I don't remember if Ronnie Crosby was in that conversation, a couple other people, and there was some discussion about Alec's interaction with SLED. And the discussion that was had was, look, he probably doesn't need to interact with SLED by himself because he doesn't know what state of mind he's in and doesn't know what the circumstances are, but he also doesn't need seven or eight lawyers trying to advise him or deal with him. I made it very clear that I wanted to be his friend and not his lawyer, that I didn't feel comfortable with that, and that one person needed to be, for lack of a better term, the point person.

He was destroyed. He was upset. And I don't know whether he was able to talk with SLED at that point in time by himself or not, but I knew that that's not something that somebody should do. Why did his best friend not want him to speak to SLED, South Carolina Law Enforcement Division? Why? Because, you know, Ann Emerson, if someone in my family, God forbid, had been murdered, I'd want to find out who murdered my husband, who murdered my child. And no matter how upset I would be, I would want that person caught and brought to justice. So why would Chris Wilson not want his best friend Murdoch to speak to SLED? Well, he didn't say that he didn't want to speak to SLED. He didn't want him to speak to SLED without an

attorney present. And he didn't want to be the attorney present. That's the way I kind of read what he was saying. But there was a lot underneath there. It's one of those optics that are coming across that all of his friends were lawyers. All of them that were there, that were his close friends that we've been hearing about in this testimony were also lawyers. So they were trying to figure out, okay, who's going to deal with this basically? And from what we could gather, this was not something that Chris Wilson was prepared to do for whatever reason. this was not something that Chris Wilson was prepared to do for whatever reason he was not going to get into the middle of this so I think that that he was also concerned I don't know why and we haven't heard all of it yet but you know Chris Wilson was

obviously very concerned because he was in his his friend Alec Murdoch, was in such terrible shape that night when he was talking to Chris. There was no way he was going to get a story out that was that was going to be of any benefit. So I think that's where they were going with it from there. But, you know, really, I thought the prosecution, Nancy, setting up the whole backstory with Chris Wilson and they really went through it. I mean, this was hours of testimony this morning that he was on the stand really setting up this relationship and how he trusted him implicitly. There was no, there was no question that Alec Murdoch was in his mind, a good guy and would do the right thing every time. It was, it was incredible to hear how this all took us all the way through these double murders.

And, of course, Joshua Ritter, when you have a faithful and loyal best friend on the stand, the first line of cross-examination is, you knew him so well, but I bet you didn't know that he had an opioid problem, did you? I bet you didn't know that he had outright stolen about eight million dollars from his clients and his law firm. Did you know that? Did you know he persuaded someone to shoot him in the head to try to get insurance benefits? You knew him so well, but you didn't know that, did you? That's exactly where the cross can go. A hundred percent. I mean, this has turned itself into a character trial,

which is kind of unfortunate, I think, for the prosecution. They may have gotten a little too cute by half by trying to introduce all of that financial crimes evidence because they've really turned it into a character trial. And now it's going to come down to a question for jurors, partially at least, does he have the motive to do this based upon his character, based upon all the evidence we've heard about him before now, the troubles that he was dealing with, but also being such a good person? Do we believe this is the type of person to commit this crime? And I don't know if that is the direction the prosecution intended when they first started

out on this trial. Mr. Ritter, you are familiar with motive evidence, evidence that under some circumstances would be disallowed because it touches on one's prior reputation or past bad acts, typically disallowed at trial, unless it proves motive, course of conduct, frame of mind. True? Yes? No? Isn't that true? Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. So it can come in. A bad act can come in to show motive, frame of mind, course of conduct, intent, yes? Yes, but I think where the prosecution may have some trouble here is what is that motive? I'm having trouble connecting the dots of he was in a bunch of financial trouble, he had some drug problems, and therefore that caused him to kill his wife and child. Where is the benefit to his life by ending their lives? I can tell you that, Joshua. And I don't know that the prosecution is going to state this plainly, but as another lawyer said, and I'm quoting him, problem solving. He had a massive multi-million dollar lawsuit filed against his family because of his son, now murdered,

was drunk as a skunk and high as a kite on a boat, and a beautiful young girl, Mallory Beach, goes spinning off the boat to her death. That lawsuit, guess what? After Paul's murder, that suit was settled. Maggie reportedly was seeking out a divorce lawyer, which would also call in a forensic accountant. And all of his stealing, lying, embezzling would come to light. So now there's no more divorce. Yes, please jump in. Nancy, there's something that we have to talk about, too, is the testimony that we've already heard that has to go in front of the jury still of some of the victims of these alleged financial crimes.

I'm using the word allegedly still, even though Chris Wilson was talking about how he was hearing Alec tell him that he had stolen money. So we're now getting those kind of witness accounts to what Alec Murdoch has said. But, Nancy, the testimony that we are going to hear if they come in of Tony Satterfield, this young man who lost his mother and then Alec has already admitted to owing money that he stole $4.3 million from these kids from an insurance settlement that he helped Manufacture not only that but you know who I saw and I don't know if you know this name right off the top But Elena Plyler, I just saw her walk into the back into the witness area of the courtroom This is another young woman who was completely Taken to the cleaners at times by the financial manipulation. So these are, what the prosecution is doing is setting up this, if they are looking at character,

let's look at the character of how these crimes were committed and the state of mind of the defendant during that period that he could completely divorce himself from all of what was going on in the world. Like, in order to go on a holiday or pay a credit card off, we're talking about 99 alleged financial crimes right now that he's facing for money laundering, financial fraud. These are, as my legal analyst, Charlie Condon, who's a former attorney general who I've been working with on this case as well

and talking to quite a bit, he said these are white-collar crimes that have just turned red blood. They are red-blood-collar crime. That is what the prosecution is trying to set up. And he was definitely going to be disbarred, ruining his family's reputation, the father, the grandfather, the great grandfather, judges, prosecutors, lawyers, until screeching halt with Alex Murdoch.

Aside from that, and I hear you, Ritter, I hear you loud and clear. How are the financial crimes motive for murder? But I think the prosecutor is going to lay it out the way Ann Emerson did. But I want to circle back to something that you can't argue with, and that is hard, cold data. It's my understanding, Ann Emerson, that it took an expert about a year to put together this car evidence that we're hearing today. It was a year. Yeah, absolutely. You're right, Nancy. It took them a year to get into this, to unlock this system. They literally said they had to reverse engineer

the entire infotainment system in order to start pulling this information out. And they still weren't able to get it all from what they were, what we gather so far. But what they did get were these stops and starts with the car, which were so interesting within this timeline. But you know, Nancy, this is something else that we're sort of deducing from what we're hearing now. And we were talking about this amongst ourselves a little bit is that the um this timeline um of when uh we actually heard about an arraignment for these murder charges for the double murder charges we all down here were wondering why is it taking so long for the prosecution because we had been hearing rumors forever that they were going to be going after Alec Murdoch. Now we know. It took them a year to unlock this system of navigation. It took them how long? Nine months after the murders to unlock Paul's phone.

We know how important that dog video and audio is now with the defendant's, what several witnesses have already said is the defendant's voice let me circle back to brian dar senior forensic engineer and tire expert with tireexpert.com i'm curious as to how you became a forensic engineer but that is for another day brian dar i heard that it took about a year to unlock all of the data we're getting from Alex Murdoch's Suburban. And it's a lot of data. I can tell every time he turned the car on, when he put it in park, when he took it out of park. The nav system can probably tell me where he went, what time he got there, what time he got back in the car and drove again. Why would it take a year?

Did you hear her and Emerson State? It took about a year to reverse engineer the infotainment system. What does that mean? The what it means to me is that the the data was somehow encrypted and that they had to go in basically line by line, maybe write an algorithm to understand the data that's there and quote unquote reverse engineer it. Okay. When you said encrypt and unencrypted, now I understand why it took them a year. You know, Mike King joining me, former police commander, host of Profiling Evil on YouTube and author. Mike, you know, we hear it all the time when members of the public, and I agree with them as well, saying, why is there an arrest?

We know Phil in the Blank did it. Why is he behind bars? Now we see. Why? Because it took a year to crack this encrypted code on Murdoch Suburban. They had to crack the code on Paul's cell phone. A lot of technical data. How do police handle it when the public is, you know, running at them with pitchforks and torches and spikes we want justice how do you

handle that yeah that's a lot of pressure that's placed on investigators and frankly the administrations to move the case along faster but i think you've said it before nancy i've heard it many times you really only get one dip at the well when you take this thing to trial so you gotta have all these pieces and parts lined up and you gotta have them ready to go in a way that the jury can understand them because all it takes is a couple of people in some places one in many to say i just don't buy it and i love analyzing all the data we're hearing uh first of all, I'm hearing from a courthouse source right now that Eddie, cousin Curtis Edward Smith, is in the courthouse. Could he testify this afternoon? That Murdoch was seen intently listening to the car testimony as if he were learning something new.

Now, at least he's not chewing on something and eating. I got flooded with social media questions about what is he eating? Why is he eating? Right in front of the jury. And you can hear their stomachs growling and Murdoch is eating at the at the table. Guys, we're trying to overlay what we know about the car data, which shows that he didn't leave Moselle until about 906, went to his mother's, turned right around and came back. He was only visiting his mother 21 minutes. Okay, but now an overlay of Maggie's phone activity.

And this is significant. Take a listen to our cut three. First call from Alex. What are the times for the call that's associated with lines 11 and 12? They are the same time. It is 6-7-20-21 at 9- 9-04-23 p.m. It has the name of Alex. Direction shows incoming.

And it shows there was a missed call received on 6-7-2021 at 9-06-51 p.m. 9-08-58 p.m. from the phone number 1-803-942-1227, Alex, to Maggie Murdoch. What does that text say? It says, going to check on him, be right back. The last call from Alex occurred at 9.06.51, correct? Yes. And the text came from Alex at 9.08.58, correct? Yes.

That entry is at 9.47.23 p.m. And what is that? It is a text message that was received on that from Alex. It says, call me, babe. And was that text ever read? I know that's referencing the previous report. No, sir, that text was not read. Well, it wasn't read because Maggie's already dead.

And I believe, like the prosecution, that she was dead when Murdoch pulled out of the house, out of Moselle. To Ann Emerson, I want to overlay what we just heard to the car starting and stopping, going in and out of park. Christine, do you mind putting up those entries one more time? Because we've got Murdoch at 904-23. And this is Maggie's phone we're looking at. An incoming call from Murdoch at 904. Now, we know he's cranking his car the car is running and the car is taken out of park at 9 0 6 50 right at 9 0 7. then we have a text to him i'm going to go check on

m which is mom i guess be right back and that is at 9 0 8 I believe can we advance the chart so at 9 0 8 he's texting all right that means he is in route he's driving at that time because the car goes back in park at 9 22 and now we've got him texting at 908 all this time he's saying back and forth with maggie of course they're unread because she's dead there's another entry at 947 where he writes call me babe what does this mean to you and emerson as you overlay the evidence on top of each other to create a timeline? Well, we are down to seconds, aren't we? I mean, we're down to seconds and minutes, you know, and that is far, far, far away from where we were just a couple of weeks ago. We had no idea that the prosecution had really narrowed this down so hard with these with with technology as you were saying

we got a whole nother layer of it today if uh from chris wilson as well because of course chris wilson was one of the people that he called uh when he was in that car and they know that through verizon records and they know that through um through his phone they say that he talks about a conversation he had with him at 9 11 p.m. as well and that they talked again at 9 20 he said 9 11 he had to call him back at 9 20 we heard that he had just gotten to his mom's house so this this absolutely is starting to line up they They are going to give us a blow-by-blow description from the state of exactly where Alec Murdoch was. What they're saying is we know where you were the whole time. We know when these phones stopped, and we know how these people used their phones.

These people were not, including himself, were people that used their phones all the time. All the time. So Chris Wilson is actually one of the people that Murdoch is calling that night, many would argue, to establish his alibi. I want you to hear about Chris Wilson, Murdoch's best friend, talking about calls from Murdoch the night of the murders. Take a listen to our cut seven. Does that reflect calls from Murdoch on the night the murders. Take a listen to our cut seven. Does that reflect calls from Alec Murdoch on the night of June 7th, 2021? Yes, sir.

He said, hey, you know, hey, Bo, is normally how he would greet you. Hey, Bo. Did he sound normal to you? Sounded normal, yes, sir. So you said, hey, I'm busy right now. Let me call you back. What did he say?

He said, that's fine. 9.11 p.m. incoming from his cell phone. Called Alec back. 9.20 p.m., incoming from his cell phone, called Alec back. 9.20 p.m., I generally say, hey, Bo, too. And, you know, hey, Bo, calling you back. He said, hey, I'm about to get to my mom's house. Can we talk a little bit later? I told him, sure.

That's from Alec to me at 9.52 on June the 7th. He says, call me if you picked up the phone and gave you a call. He said, hey, Alec, I got your text calling you back. How's your mama? He said, you know, she's doing about like normal, I think. I mean, she'd been doing poorly for years. And he said, I'm about to get back home. Can we talk tomorrow? Pretty shortly after that, I went on to bed. So if the state is correct, Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney joining us out of L.A., if the state is correct in their allegations that Murdoch murdered his wife and son, he is able to act perfectly normal on the phone with his best friend.

Yeah, that's that's hugely impactful evidence for the defense and something I'm sure they're going to drill home. Listen, you're saying that a man, by the way, didn't just commit an everyday type of murder here, murdered his wife and child and it's cool as a cucumber on the phone with his best friend who doesn't have a hint that anything is wrong, that's powerful evidence for the defense. I don't care how you cut it. And I think it's certainly something they're going to remind jurors of when they get into closing argument that, listen, a lot of this doesn't line up with the prosecution's theory of what was taking place and when. Well, I think it lines up exactly with what the prosecution says. The calls, the data from the car that our

new friend Brian Dar is explaining to us, it all fits together. What doesn't fit together to me is that he is so calm when he calls his friend knowing he just killed his wife and son. crime stories with nancy grace you know when you think it through to uh mike king very often you see defendants act really calm after a murder. I mean, do you remember Scott Peterson? Do you remember Drew Peterson? I mean, so many, they're calm as a nun. I remember sitting with professors at Harvard University talking about this transitional thing and when people finally make a decision there's a sense of calmness that comes even completing something like this might bring that calmness and yet I think still when you look at some of the other evidence especially

the move in the vehicle in and out of park so many times Nancy I've said it a couple of times I think that is so indicative of the disorganization that's starting to happen as the reality of what he's gone through, as the adrenaline starts to drain off. Those kinds of things are going to play and I hope as this thing goes forward and as we start looking at cellular location and other things in the case. Now joining me, a renowned expert, Dr. Michelle Dupree. Now, not only is she a pathologist and a medical examiner, she's also a former detective. And let me tout one more thing. She is the author of the Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Now, Dupree, no aspersions to be cast on the rest of our guests, but I'm saving the best for last.

That's you, medical examiner, pathologist, detective. Now that you've heard some of the technical data as explained by Brian Darr, the argument by Joshua Ritter, and our former police commander, Mike King, the facts from Ann Emerson. What do you make of it? Well, Nancy, I think this is very interesting. I think that a lot of these things are what we call forensic countermeasures, which is Alex trying to diffuse the situation, trying to cast doubt on him and refer that to someone else. Remember early on in the investigation, he offered a reward, $100,000, to find the killer of his wife and child.

Yet he put a time limit on it. Who does that? Also, he was very cool, I think, and rather calculating the night of the interview. He's sitting in the in the car being interviewed by the officer and he's almost thinking about everything that he's saying before he says it. To me that's just another indication of how cool this person can be under such duress. I do think that the movement of the car back and forth in and out of park, he was starting to unravel. I mean, this has to be a horrific scene, you know, horrific emotions, even after he has done this, allegedly done this. Now, Dr. Michelle Dupree, you just reminded me about that time limit on the reward. He gave a $100,000 reward if you can solve this murder in x number of weeks and months. I remember that which I recall we discussed at the time that it was very odd. Could you explain exactly what

you mean by a forensic countermeasure doctor? Sure a forensic countermeasure is something that usually the perpetrator will do. It's almost like staging the crime scene. It's something to throw off the investigation, to make people look in other directions rather than at the perpetrator. So Ann Emerson, she's right. I recall when Murdoch put out the reward and he put a time limit on it. Do you remember that? That time, so much was happening during september as well of course because that was when we had the uh the botched assisted suicide attempt um that was also going on so so already that world was starting to unravel for sure but also don't you know uh it reminds me also of the shotgun that that he was carrying if you kind of follow Dr. Dupree's line of thinking, that shotgun that he had in his hands when the cops got to him the night of the murders,

that was very well thought out from the state's perspective because, of course, that would explain gunshot residue and some other things that were going on when they were testing him. Guys, on the stand today, Murdoch's best friend. Now, I want you to hear where he's coming from, and you have to understand his relationship to Murdoch so you can carefully evaluate his testimony. Take a listen to best friend Chris Wilson on the stand in our Cut 6. One of your best friends? Yes, sir, very much. Not just my best friend, Mr. Waters. I mean, our families were close. I mean, our kids, our wives.

We're close. You had a friendship with Maggie, too. Yes, sir. Very much. You had a friendship with Paul, too. Yes, sir. You had a friendship with Buster, too. Yes, sir. Very much. Had a friendship with Paul, too. Yes, sir. Had a friendship with Buster, too. Yes, sir. Haven't been able to have that since. Not like it was, but yes, sir. Hope to one day. Yes, sir. And more about when he finds out about the murders. Take a listen to Hour Cut 8. How'd you find out? I was asleep.

My wife comes in kind of hysterical. She says, you've got to wake up, you've got to wake up. I don't remember if she was on the phone with Randy's wife or Randy. My wife was telling me what's going on. I just told her, I said, I'll get some clothes. I got to go to Moselle. About what time did you get to Moselle? About 1 o'clock in the morning. I don't know that I knew at that point that this had occurred at the kennels,

but I could see that there was tons of activity there. I think John Marvin and Randy were walking out and kind of waved off and said, go to the house. Was the defendant there? He was, yes sir. Yeah. You talked to him? I did. Hugged his neck and cried. There were a lot of the lawyers that he practices law with, several family members, you know, some friends of his that I knew. There were a lot of people already in the house okay a lot of people may find that odd mike king joining me former police commander host of profiling evil on youtube mike king how many times have you walked into a double murder scene and the place is crawling with lawyers

i don't think i can remember a time that that happened but i thought it was interesting that they said uh yeah we're going to encourage him not to talk to police. Yet he still did. Yeah, I find that very odd. Why would you encourage someone when their wife and son have been brutally murdered, shot multiple times? Maggie was riddled with bullets. Why would you not want them to talk to police? Exactly. And, you know, it really makes me wonder that if it's an arrogance thing,

knowing what he probably should do from a legal standpoint, getting that counsel from other lawyers in the room, deciding he's going to do it anyway, is it an arrogance that he thinks he can talk his way through it, or is it that he actually is innocent? But it makes me really wonder if this guy is going to have the arrogance to go in and try to testify in this case. Oh my goodness, Joshua Ritter, do you think Murdoch would actually take the stand? No way. I don't think so. I think his attorneys would sit on his chest before they

allowed that to happen. But listen, I've been listening to all of this and I appreciate the idea about these forensic countermeasures and everything else. So what we have here is either a person who is so diabolical that they've planned this all out or a person who is innocent. Right. It's what his defense is going to argue. And if that person truly believes that they're innocent, you might not be able to keep them from the stand. And if he truly is as diabolical as we're all seeming to think, maybe that's the same kind of person you can't keep from the stand. So nothing in this case would cease to shock me at this point. Ann Emerson, I keep getting texts from the courthouse that Curtis Eddie Smith, aka Cousin Eddie, is in the courthouse. Now, in that jurisdiction, is the jail below the court? Is there a jail in the courthouse. Now, in that jurisdiction, is the jail below the court? Is there a jail

in the courthouse, a holding cell? Literally, like, you know where the courthouse is? It's right behind me. If you just go a little bit farther down the hill, and I've done the run, I have done the run to get, you know, some of the defendants in different cases from Colleton County to get pictures of them coming out of that sort of sally port in the back. So really, it's less than a five-minute drive if you literally are just getting them into the car and driving them down there. To run, I think I've done it about two and a half minutes. So it's right there. And this is the Colleton County Jail where we actually, this is the first time I ever saw Curtis Setti-Smith

because I was at that Sally Port and in the first bond hearing when we heard about the importance of who he is and how he was going to play a role in this. And Nancy, I think it's so interesting that you're hearing that from the court right now. I have not gotten that confirmed yet that he's here. I have heard that he's supposed to be coming this week. But if he is here, it makes sense with what the prosecution was doing literally right before we got out of court for lunch. They were taking us up. And they're very good at that. They're taking us right up to that point of the roadside shooting. I mean, we are on September 4th, 2021 right now. We've just heard from Chris Wilson about his last interaction ever in person with

Alec Murdoch ever again. This was the last time he talked to his best friend and the whole wide world was on September 4th, just before all of this went down. Okay, let's take a listen to that in our cut nine. Went out on the front porch and I looked at him and I said, and I'm sure I said F or H or something. I said, what the, you know, what is going on? I need to know what's going on. Because I know about this thing that Lee's called me about. And I need to know if there's something else you've done that involves me that I don't know about. That's a problem for me.

What is going on? Broke down crying. Said, I can't talk. Let me, I can't, I can't write this second, Chris. He walked inside and grabbed a handful of paper towels and came back out on the porch and said, you know, I'm sorry. I've had a drug problem. I've been addicted to opioids for something like 20 years.

There were parts where it was heated and parts where it was silent and parts where it was probably calmer. Admitted he had been stealing money, you know. From who? From his law firm and from clients. Couldn't believe that I didn't know it. Never saw it. Never suspected it. Drugs or money.

And what did he say? just said it had been going on for a long time i was angry i was i didn't know how to feel which leads me back to what joshua ritter a renowned defense attorney from la was just saying ann emerson that his own best friend didn't know anything about the opioid addiction or the embezzling money. This has been going on for years, 20 years. So what else could Alex Murdoch be capable of that his friends would never suspect? Murder? Oh, I mean, I think they're absolutely going to have a problem here, right?

They've got to now, I mean, the prosecution is setting up that no one knew him. I mean, this is a question that the prosecution has given to several of the closest sort of people around Alec Murdoch. Did you really know him? No, I guess I didn't. You know, this is what they keep on saying on the stand. So we've been setting up that he's garnered an enormous amount of trust and brotherhood with the people that he loves his family everyone but did we really know him no is the answer that we keep on hearing but the defense of course is going to be um uh you know fighting this tooth and nail as

they get into it they are they are going to be saying you know they're going to say that he's as as loving of a family that he could ever have in his entire world and Chris Wilson backed that up to Dr. Michelle Dupree how many times Dr. Dupree have you handled cases that end up in the morgue where no one really knew the defendant they thought they did but and they would never have suspected a double murder like this. But in fact, it was true. There are parts to people, especially addicted to drugs, that we can never comprehend. We're trying to apply logic to an illogical situation, Dr. Dupree. Exactly, Nancy.

And how many times is a significant other, a husband or a wife, the one who actually does kill their loved ones? You know, whenever we see these mass shootings or anything horrific like this, family and friends almost always say, we never saw it coming. You know, and if they did, certainly they would have alerted somebody or tried to get that person help. But in this case, everyone is saying the same thing. We never suspected it. And what does that even tell us about Alex Murdoch? He was very, very good at this, at hiding things from other people, even those that were close to him. Guys, I'm hearing in my ear, everybody is breaking camp and going back into the courthouse. Lunch is over.

Now they've got to get those jurors back into the jury area where they sit. We never see their faces. And I'm sure that they've got a lot of emotions and concerns because of the bomb threat yesterday, the unfounded bomb threat. But they're making their way back into the courtroom and so are we.

Goodbye, friend. Thanks for being with us. This is an iHeart Podcast.