Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Murdaugh Murders: Did Murdaugh Discard Bloody Clothes?

Episode Date: February 3, 2023

The chief financial officer of Alex Murdaugh’s former law firm took the stand today, testifying that she confronted Alex about missing money the same day his wife and son were killed.  Jeanne Seckinger told the court that she and Alex discussed structured settlements regarding the boat crash involving Paul. Alex reportedly sent those funds to Forge Consulting and was putting money in his wife’s name. Alex allegedly said he was sending the money to Forge as a favor to a friend, Michael Gunn, who was a top employee there. In February 2019, Paul reportedly crashed his boat into Archer’s Creek Bridge killing Mallory Beach. The teen was ejected from the boat; five other people aboard were injured. Paul was charged with felony boating under the influence.  Also, did Alex Murdaugh change clothes before police arrived at Maggie and Paul Murdaugh's murder scene? Paul Murdaugh's video shows his father in long pants and a colored shirt. The video of Murdaugh's statement with police shows him in shorts and a white t-shirt.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Aimee Zmroczek - Attorney for Curtis “Cousin Eddie” Smith; Twitter: @azmroczek Robert Crispin - Private Investigator, Former Federal Task Force Officer for United States Department of Justice; DEA and Miami Field Division; Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator; “Crispin Special Investigations;" Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations, Inc.    Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department: Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;" Forensic Consultant Kelly Skehen- Fox Nation Senior Producer  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What a morning in the courtroom. I hope you've been listening to it live. I'm telling you, you you know it's one thing to say wow Alex Murdoch got disbarred or Alex Murdoch stole from his clients but when you hear that witness on the stand I took down so many notes about how much money he stole it was a very elaborate process where he would create a fake

forge account forges the name of an actual business but would create a fake Forge account. Forge is the name of an actual business, but he created a fake Forge account and he would funnel a $279,000 settlement, $247,000, $750,000, $183,000. It goes on. I've got 20 settlements that he made, 20 awards for clients, at least, that all went into his fake Forge account. And let me tell you something else. That lady witness on the stand, there was no love lost between her and Alex Murdoch. She was ready to drop the hammer on him. And I only wonder if the witness knew Maggie Murdoch, because remember, Maggie worked there in the office as a bookkeeper. A lot more, a lot of arguing between the lawyers, but boy, talk about motive for murder. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime

Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But the big thing, the big bombshell, in addition to all of this financial misdoing leading up to the murders of Maggie and Paul. In addition to that, guys, I consider this the single most important moment of the trial. Finally, somebody stands up and says it was Alex Murdoch. Now, I looked online last night

and I saw all these entries on Twitter and Facebook and Insta saying, we're not afraid here in Colleton County. We're not afraid of Alex Murdoch. But when I was sitting outside the courthouse and in the courtroom in break, people would come up to me and say, my best friend was in the jury pool and she was afraid. She was afraid to be on the jury. She was afraid that somehow Murdoch would get off and come after everybody on the jury. Then I was at a restaurant eating dinner right one block from the courthouse. And another woman, a different woman, came up and told me, Yeah, the Murdoch relatives, they're not talking.

We were with them two weekends ago. They don't even bring it up because they're all scared they might have to testify to something. But finally, somebody did stand up and say, I recognize that. That's the voice of Alex Murdoch. Placing him at the crime scene. Somebody that wasn't afraid to stand up and tell the truth.

I want you to listen to our cut too. In November of 2022, did law enforcement ask you to come in and look at a video? They did. And did you watch that video? I did. And what was on that video? It was the video. Paul was supposed to take a cache. Cache was on the video.

And did you hear, recognize the voices on there? I did. Did you recognize the voices of your second family? I did. And what voices did you hear? Paul's, Miss Maggie, Miss Taylor. And how sure are you now? Positive. 100%? That's correct. 100% positive. And more. Take a listen to our cut three. Who's voices did you recognize on that video? Paul Murdahl, Maggie Murdahl, and Alex Murdahl. And how sure are you? 100%.

The person whose voice you recognize on there that you identified as Alec Murdahl, do you see him in the courtroom here today? Yes, sir. Can you point him out for the jury? He's sitting right there. Your Honor, please let the record reflect he's identified the defendant. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What video are they talking about? Well, if you are illegal-legal, then you know what video we're talking about.

The murdered son, Paul Murdoch, had a friend's dog. It was Rogan Gibson, Rogie, Gibson's dog. And there was something wrong with the dog's tail. I've looked at the video. I don't see anything wrong with the dog's tail, but they apparently do and in that moment Rogi asks Paul take a picture take a video and we're going to give it to this lady vet that we know see if she can figure out what it is by the video that's what we're talking about and in the background you hear a third voice. Paul, Maggie, his mother, and we believe Alex Murdoch. Okay, you take a listen and you hear a distant third voice. That, according to two witnesses, is Alex Murdoch's

significance. This is about a minute before Paul and Maggie are murdered. Take a listen. Get back. Get back. Quit, Cash. Come on. Quit. Come on. Come on, Cash. Come on. Come on. Hey, he's got a bird in his mouth. Come here Cash. Shit. Come here.

Hey he's got a bird in his mouth. Baba. Hang on Baba. That's a guinea. That's a chicken. Come here Baba. Come here Cash. Come here Baba. quit.

And according to not one, but two witnesses, Rogie, Rogan Gibson, and Will Loving, both say that is Alex Murdoch, the accused killer. With me, an all-star panel, but first, I'm going to go to Kelly Skihan, who's been in the courtroom from the get-go with Fox Nation. Kelly, that was a moment I will never forget. Describe to me what happened,

because like so many moments where you and I are sitting there literally on the edge of our seat like those two inches are going to make a differencellywood movie when that video was played everyone in the court was on the edge of their seats and something that i noticed is alex family almost they were taken aback local reporting says that they actually confirmed that that was alec murdoch's voice on the tape before we even heard it in court his sister you can see her in the feed almost grimacing she she knows that that is her brother. Now Kelly I'm going to put you on the spot right right now. You were with me at the restaurant the other night and we were talking to friends of the Murdoch family and the person we were speaking with had been with the Murdochs a few weeks before. And these are second, second, third cousins. And they were afraid. They didn't want to talk about it. They wouldn't speak about it. They

acted like nothing was happening because they're afraid. They do not want to get involved. They're afraid, Nancy. And we've even been speaking to sources on the ground here where when one person starts talking, the other person literally covers the other one's mouth. They don't want to be connected to this case. They're still scared of the Murdochs here, whether it's the extended family or they're scared of if Alec gets out, what's going to happen to them. No one wants to talk. Even people, I was hearing in court today that Alec Murdoch during jury selection, when the lawyers were asking if they could form, you know, opinions of this, not form opinions of this case, and they would say no and they were dismissed, Alec would look at them with this stare. So he definitely still has his talents in this town.

You know what, Kelly? You just reminded me of that. I saw that, too. We were talking to a witness, a person not on the witness list, not that kind of witness. We were talking to someone affiliated, friends of the Murdoch's. And the other person started talking to us and telling us things we had never heard before. And the other one literally, as Kelly Skin just told you, reached over and went. And that was it.

No more talking. That was it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace guys today we've heard a lot about financial misdeeds but i wanted you to hear that video and that sound um also i want you to take a listen now to a snapchat. Take a listen. Is that the video you saw? Yes, it is. That was on the afternoon or the evening of June 7th, 2021? That's correct. Clothes that he was wearing, at least in that video you saw on the evening of June 7th, 2021? Yeah, those are the clothes I saw on the video. Long pants and a shirt?

Yep, yes, sir. And those particular shoes? Yes, sir. And you watched that video in real time when it came in from Paul's phone that evening, is that correct? That is correct. Guys, I'm very taken aback. We heard rumors of this at the get-go, but Kelly Skin, is it true that reportedly Alex Murdoch had a wardrobe change that he was wearing one thing before the shootings and something entirely

different when police arrived after his 911 call? That is true. So in this Snapchat video, you see Alec Murdoch pushing over a tree and you hear Paul Murdoch in the background laughing. Alec Murdoch is wearing a blue short-sleeved shirt and long pants. Then when you see this video from inside of a police car later that night, when Alec is being interviewed by police about what happened. He's in a short sleeve white undershirt and shorts. We don't know where his clothes went from earlier that night and we don't know if we will ever find them. Well, you know, Kelly, I'm glad you put it like that because we were just showing a split screen of what he's wearing in the video that afternoon as identified by Will Loving and what he was wearing just a few

hours later when police arrived. So did Alex Murdoch discard bloody clothes? In addition to my Fox Nation senior producer who's been with me through thick and thin, Kelly Skin, also with us is a renowned attorney. I know you've heard her name before, Amy Zimracek. Why have you heard her name? Because she is the lawyer for Curtis, aka Cousin Eddie Smith. As you will recall, you first heard the name Curtis Eddie Smith when Alex Murdoch somehow mysteriously ended up on a rural road way out of his way and then an unknown stranger came and shot him in the head and miraculously he lived listen I got a flat tire mm-hmm somebody stopped to help me and when I turned my back they

tried to shoot me okay will you shot yes I mean, I'm okay. You shot where? Where were you shot at? Huh? Did they actually shoot you or they tried to shoot you? They shot me. Cousin Eddie is charged with assisted suicide, assault and battery, on and on and on.y zimmercheck you've got your work cut out for you what is the status of mr smith's case right now it is still pending uh all of his cases are still pending the he has state grand jury cases as well as local uh hampton county the roadside shooting occurred in hampton county and so uh he's got a pending speedy trial motion there and that has not been heard. Okay, that was really smart of you, Amy Zimmercheck. Okay, jump in. This morning in court, I saw Alec Murdoch's defense team walk in with a big,

big file and the label Eddie Smith on it. So I think that he will be called to testify pretty soon here as a witness and it is one that we are definitely watching. Well you know what I don't know about that Kelly Skian. I think you're right but I would always walk into court with a big file that said defendant's rap sheet on it just so they would know that's what they were looking at if he took the stand. Of course, they already knew that. That said, back to Amy. Thank you, Kelly.

Back to Amy Zimracek, the lawyer for Mr. Curtis Smith. Amy, do you believe your client will take some sort of a plea negotiation in exchange for truthful testimony? That has not been discussed. If my client's called, he will testify truthfully. Well, of course, Ms. Zimmercheck, that goes without saying that he will testify truthfully. Is he actually a blood relative of Alex Murdoch, or is this a nickname? Are they actually related? So his mother's last name was Murdoch.

So he's got, but not a direct relation. He's got a distant relation to the family. Do you anticipate him taking the stand today or in the near future? I know he has been subpoenaed as a witness. He is definitely not taking the stand today. I think that his testimony will likely depend on what this judge rules, what Judgeman rules upon as far as what is allowed either rest just a um or with potential 404b evidence he um i mean he has been subpoenaed he is under subpoena but i think that a lot of what he could testify to will depend on the judge's ruling and from what i understood just as i was watching right before the lunch break it sounds like the judge rightfully so to protect the record is going to have almost a mini trial where he listens to this potential either res gesta or

404b or a combination of both evidence before he decides to present it to the jury, which I think does two things. It probably changes the timeline on when or if my client is called, and I think that it extends his trial quite a few weeks. Well, we're all settled in. I want to hear the whole truth, nothing but the truth. I don't want a Reader's Digest version of what happened. Now, Ms. Zimmercheck with me is a well-known lawyer, and I mean that in a good way.

Amy Zimmercheck, representing Curtis Edward Smith, who is accused of shooting Murdoch in the head, pre-arranged, in order to either take the focus off the murders of Maggie and Paul or to make it appear as if his assailant had been the shooters of Maggie and Paul. A different, an alternative theory going on. Amy, question. Of course, your client at this juncture will not be able to testify about any of his alleged involvement in the shooting of Alex Murdoch, but could he be called to the stand to recount under oath what Alex Murdoch may have told him about the shootings of Maggie and Paul I do believe that that is probably a proper testimony depending on even even regardless of what judge Newman rules about the additional

evidence or or potential bad acts or other bad acts but I do believe that the subject of anything that was said in relation to that could be the subject of this trial. Let me break it down in regular people talk. Curtis Eddie Smith is accused of shooting Murdoch in a staged event. They say to give life insurance benefits to the remaining living son, Buster Murdoch. I think it's a whole nother can of worms. Now, if he's called to the stand, he can't talk about any of that under the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent and not incriminate yourself. And if he doesn't say it, I guarantee you Zemurchek will jump in and stop him from incriminating himself. But that does not preclude him from testifying under oath in

front of the jury about any communications by Alec Murdoch to him about the murders of Maggie and Paul or anything else touching on this court case. He can testify about that and he cannot get out from testifying about that by the Fifth Amendment or any other protection. Guys, we're talking about what is happening in court right now. And I want you to take a listen. I'm telling you, this woman, there's no love lost between this woman and Alex Murdoch. My other guests, hold tight. I see you waiting, but you've got to hear this.

Hour cut 12. We just heard it on the stand, the epiphany that, oh, my stars, Alex Murdoch is stealing. Can you believe that? Listen. You were sitting in your office and you had an epiphany or you know just a thought let's just see what these how many times Alex been his cases have checked going to forge well when you're speaking of epiphany I had started digging through his client list for every fee that he'd brought in and rather than going one by one my epiphany

was let me just run a payment ledger on Forge and see what that turns out rather than digging one by one. Okay. And what prompted you to do that? Because I was trying to look to see if there had been any more settlements that had been written to Forge like this other one with Hershberger so that we could account for him and discuss how we were going to handle them and the look she gave Alex Murdoch I'm telling you looks could kill now listen to more of this witness in our cut eight so on June 7th I was gonna make another run at finding out from Alec if we had their information I went upstairs to his offices on the second floor and he was leaning on a file cabinet outside his office. He turned and looked at me when I came up and said,

what do you need now? And gave me a very dirty look, not a look that I'd ever received from just kind of frustrated with me look, which made me go, oh, you want to know, let's go in your office. I told him that I had reason to believe that he had received the funds himself and that I needed proof that he had not. Received those fees himself? Yes. And I needed proof that they were not?

Yes. What did he tell you? He told me again that he assured me that the money was there and that he could get it. And at that point, I said, I know, I said, I'm just trying to do my job. And if I don't get this paperwork and verify that with these questions, I'm not doing my job. He actually acted like he respected that and again said that that money was there and that he again was trying to decide what he was going to be doing with it. So he assured her the money was there. and that he again was trying to decide what he was going to be doing with it.

So he assured her the money was there. But guess what? It wasn't there. We're about to play our cut 11. What happened to all the money? I'm talking about big money settlements. One of them off the top of my head. Kelly, jump in if I've got the numbers wrong. There is one for $1.2 million, $125,000, $183,000, $338,000. I've got so many numbers here. $750,000. It goes on and on and on. Kelly, did you add all that up

while she was talking? I did not all that up while she was talking? I did not add it up while she was talking, but we have heard that that number is up to $10 million. And I have to tell you something that happened during the break as we are going through these financial crimes line by line by line by line. stands up and looks at Eric Bland who is representing Eric or representing the family of Gloria Satterfield the Murdoch family nanny who died in a trip in fall he looks at Eric Bland and says quote none of this sh IT matters so as the prosecution is laying out this case against Alec Murdoch for all of these white collar crimes, allegedly, his defense is saying, it doesn't matter. It's fine. It's fine. He's stealing from clients.

You know what, Kelly Skin? You just said a white collar crime. And you know what? Alec Murdoch might as well have just gotten a gun and held it to the head of his clients. Just think about it, Kelly. Let's just say your mom or your dad is in a crash and they have life-changing, life-changing damages. Maybe they have a problem walking. Maybe they can never go back to work again. They're on disability forever. And then Murdi gets a nice little settlement

for $1.2 million. And then every time you call him on the phone, you, Kelly, you're paying your mom and your dad's way. You're paying their house payment. You're paying their car payment. You're paying for their groceries. Everything. And he keeps saying, well, it's coming.

It's coming. You know what? You know what? Just come on and rob me. Put a gun to my face. Don't sneak around and steal my money. So when you say white collar crime, he stole money from these people and the law firm found out and the law firm had to cover it. Guys, take a listen to our cut 11. Let's talk about the Badger case. What was the total settlement in that particular case? $3.1 million.

What was the attorney fee that he received in that settlement? He received $1,240,000. The firm did? The firm did. The firm did. That would be ultimately on his books at the end of the year. It would be credited to him. What else did Alec take?

$1,325,000. And how did he go about doing that? Checks were payable to Palmetto State Bank that were then converted into personal items. And down here we have Palmetto State Bank payment to fund structure for client request is that right? That's right. And that's the 1.325 million? That's correct. And did that go to the client? No. An email to ELEC which was forwarded to me and my accounting staff asking if we could recut the $1.3 million check into four different checks. And they were made out to what entity?

Palmetto State Bank. And then after they were made out to Palmetto State Bank, what happened to them? They got converted to personal usage for Alec Murdoch's benefit. Personal usage for Alec Murdoch's benefit. For what? What was he doing with all that money? Was it drugs? Was it gambling? Was it other women? Millions and millions of dollars. And why did the other partners stand by and let it happen? Did nobody notice what was going on? Take a listen to our cut nine. On the morning of Friday, September 3rd at Lee Cope's house with the majority of the partners

and myself present, we discussed what we had found and showed everybody the documentation that we had recovered. And then the choice was made. We needed to talk to Alec that it looked like he had stolen. And it was my understanding that Alec admitted it and that it was determined he would resign. I think he tried to do a few other things before resigning, but we made him resign. I wonder what she meant by do a few other things. Now, this is where Amy Zemmerchuk, high profile lawyer for Curtis Cousin Eddie Smith comes in. Wait for it Amy. Take a listen. Just as they're trying

to iron out all of Alex Murdoch's stealing, embezzling, outright just taking right out of the bank accounts of his clients. Take a listen to our cut 10. The next thing I heard about Alec was Alec had been shot in the head

and was being flown out to Savannah. Was that on the side of the road at Old South Cahatchee? That's correct. What's the first thing you thought when you heard he had been shot? You know, nobody knew what to think. A lot of thoughts went through, but fear went through. Was this retaliation? Was he involved in something bigger

that was going to get more of us in trouble? And just fear. You know, Robert Crispin, former homicide detective, Miami Field Division, now at CrispinInvestigations.com. You know, Robert, if I heard, God forbid, that you were shot on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, oh, is this part of a bigger crime? Is this retaliation for wrongdoing by Robert Crispin? But this lady, and she's just telling the truth. They all went, uh-oh, uh-oh, what's this about? They immediately thought, well, you know what? Somebody got him back for all the, well, I quit cursing when the twins were born.

For all the, let me just say, shenanigans that Alex Murdoch had pulled. That's their first thought, Crispin. Well, yeah. So let's talk about this witness who's testifying today first. What a solid witness. And the defense is going to have a big time problem with her. And she is going case by case, client by client and showing the theft. And again, it goes back to digital evidence. This is digital evidence. You're not getting out of this. It comes back to him.

Now let's speed things up. Let's go to the attempted suicide. You know what really hurts him on that? And law enforcement, I guarantee you, from the time they showed up, knew that something was up with this. In his 911 call, what does he do? He starts to talk about his alibi. He doesn't talk about being shot in the head until several seconds deep inside. The 911 operator even asks him, have you been shot? And there's a pause.

And he says, yeah, in the head. I'm sorry. The 911 operator even asks him, have you been shot? And there's a pause. And he says, yeah, in the head. I'm sorry. I've listened to thousands of 911 calls, and I've responded to several shootings. Listen to the 911 call. People are screaming, I've been shot, I've been shot. Or they're trying to scream out what their offender looks like. You don't put your alibi up front.

That's exactly what happened here. This is exactly what happened during one of his first two interviews notice he's a former prosecutor he always puts that alibi out front first because you know if i had been shot and i was afraid i was dying the first thing i said would not be hey i got a flat tire that's not how that would normally go down and remember his then lawyer told everybody that he had had horrendous life-changing injuries with a brain injury. Then he showed up with a band-aid. A flesh-colored band-aid. Now this is where Amy Zimmercheck comes in. Amy again you've got your work cut out for you. I do not envy you at all, but that's why you have such a good reputation.

You manage to somehow turn lemons into lemonade every time. Amy, your client, Curtis Edward Smith, stands accused of shooting Alex Murdoch at Murdoch's request. Let me ask you this. When your client comes before this jury, and we have every reason to think that he is, what is his potential testimony? Well, certainly I can't divulge any attorney-client privilege. I think that that,

you know, will, I think that what, depending on what the judge's ruling comes in, I think that what you'll see and what you'll, and hopefully what the jury will begin to understand is just like you've already picked up, is the res geste, is the background behind what kind of person says and does things over and over and how they do them and why they do them, why they go into a self-protection mode or an alibi mode. And I do believe that if it's argued correctly by the prosecution, that that does fall squarely within the res geste, within the why do we have to bring this information in? Because it's not just about one incident. It's not just about the financial crimes. It's not just about, you know, the roadside shooting incident. It's about all of these things together and what they

did to, in the mind of Alec Murdoch, to have us land here in front of those 12 jurors that are going to make that decision. Res geste, of course, is a Latin phrase that lawyers throw around. And what it means very simply is the facts and circumstances that are so intimately connected to the crime itself. It could be hearsay, but it's res geste. It's said basically at the time or just before or surrounding the crime. That is an exception to the hearsay rule. There are many exceptions to the hearsay rule, but it is allowed in because it is res geste. It kind of helps explain the nature of the crime, and it is allowed into evidence. you know uh first of all we got

to look at the actual injury to alex murdoch that afternoon on that rural road and two i mean you got to wonder if he would arrange that shooting what else would he do i want to go to you dr michelle dupree is joining me there in South Carolina, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner, detective, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. She's at dmichelledupreamd.com. Dr. Michelle, thank you for being with us. Do you remember when you and I looked at Alex Murdoch's so-called brain injury?

It was a Band-Aid. It was a band-aid it was a joke nancy i do remember that and whoever supposedly tried to shoot him they need remedial marksman training yeah you know that uh amy zimmerchik you might mention that to curtis eddie smith that he needs to go take a little time at the uh target at the range because he was meaning to kill Murdoch. He's a bad shot, but you know what? I'm glad he's in a court of law right now so we can get some answers. Kelly Skeen is joining me right now, Fox Nation producer for Crime Stories.

Kelly, of course, the jury did not hear everything that was happening today, correct? No, they did not hear. So yesterday what happened is Jim Griffin, Alec Murdoch's defense attorney, asked Paul Murdoch's friend, could you think of any reason why Alec Murdoch would kill his wife and son? The friend said no, but essentially Alec Murdoch's own defense team kicked that door wide open for all of this other evidence on other crimes to be admitted into court to talk about Alec Murdoch's character. So you can imagine he's probably not too happy with his defense team in this very moment. Okay, Kelly, slow it down and repeat one more time why this is happening.

All of the witnesses, the witness that you're just seeing talking about financial misdoings, in other words, stealing, siphoning, embezzling millions of dollars from his law firm. As I heard that witness describe it, a brotherhood of lawyers from his clients that trusted him. How did this happen? Because typically we wouldn't see this. You were talking about opening a door. Tell me again in slow-mo what exactly happened. Sure. So yesterday when Paul Murdoch's friend was on the stand, Alec Murdoch's defense attorney asked him,

can you think of any reason why Alec Murdoch would kill his own wife and son? The friend said no, but that opened the door for the state to ask a question about, did you know anything about the financial crimes? They said no. The defense team objected. The judge called the objection totally inappropriate and said we would address it this morning in court. We did, but none of these arguments can be heard in front of a jury because technically, the case that they're hearing right now is the murder trial. They are not hearing about Alec Murdoch's financial crimes. So the state and the defense team are going back and forth on whether any of this will be admitted in front of a jury.

And we don't know if the jury will hear any of this yet. Kelly, where is the jury during all this? They're in the break room. They were waiting for lunch. The judge dismissed them. The bailiffs took them out and they are waiting. Okay. You know, Amy Zimracek, this is why people hate lawyers. Well, one of the many reasons they hate lawyers.

They have been sitting in that jury room, which is a very small, about the size of somebody's dining room, waiting to come in court while the lawyers do this. I swear, Amy, and I don't know if you agree with me or not, whenever that would happen to me, I would tell the other side, you know what, we need to do this after we let the jury go home and not have them sitting in a room waiting for us to figure out what to do with the evidence. Because I think that's a huge miscarriage for the jury to have to sit there and twiddle their thumbs while the lawyers duke it out in court. They should have done that last night. But did you hear Amy Zimrichek when Kelly Skins said, I mean, I'm not sure which defense lawyer it was that asked this question, but I mean, really? Are you serious? Did they really ask this question to a state's witness, Amy? Can you think of any reason that Alex Murdoch would shoot his wife and son? Well, heck yeah.

I can think of a lot of reasons. They opened the door, Amy Zimmercheck. I believe that they not opened the door. I believe that they fully kicked it open. And not just with the second witness. I felt like Cretin Waters almost missed an opportunity. Jim Griffin did the questioning of both of these boys and they, and that's what they are. They're very young men and they're, I know that this is hard for them because they are close with the family and this is

difficult. But, but, but when, when Jim asked Rogan, you know, can you think of any reason? And I was yelling at, at Creighton through the computer like oh my gosh he just gave you all the reasons all the bring him up ask him about all of them he said that he knew him very well he asked him that twice he could have gone into that but what he did was wait until the second witness um and and i do believe that that was a huge a huge mistake on the defense i was i was in trial earlier this week and uh and there was an opportunity that I had to be very careful with the questions that I crafted on cross because I didn't want to open that door to these other potential bad acts or these other reasons

or these other things and and the defense absolutely did that and and and I believe that that was a huge mistake oh my goodness Amy Zimmercheck let me tell you something whenever that would happen to me I could not even sit at my seat I would jump up immediately and tell my investigator go get this person that person this person this person bring me this bring me that they've opened the door hell has broken loose and I guarantee you uh that they well I don guarantee you, but I bet one of the reasons the state didn't jump on it right then is they don't want to mistrial. I would have sent the jury out and said they opened the door, judge, and I'm fixing to

walk through it with all of my witnesses and all of my evidence as to motive right now. Because let me explain to any non-lawyers, it's real easy. Lawyers want to make it sound hard. It's not hard. Under our Constitution, a case cannot be tried on somebody's bad reputation. No, the jury doesn't know that you did this and you did that and you had a DUI and you cheated on your wife and blah, blah, blah. No, they only hear the facts regarding the case in chief, what you were charged with. They don't want to take the jury with other bad acts unless and until the defense brings it up and tries to say there was no motive was there. Oh yeah, there's a motive, all right, and then the state can come back, guns a-blazing, telling the jury all about motive.

And that is what has happened here. Kelly, which defense lawyer did that? Who opened the door? It's interesting you ask that. It was defense attorney Jim Griffin. And up until this point, we've really seen Dick Harpulitan asking many of the questions, but he's been getting a lot of criticism for kind of bumbling through this trial. He's a very high priced attorney, has a very good reputation, but really isn't kind of showing his stuff in court.

So we've seen him at the table and Jim Griffin doing more of this line of questioning. And also Alec Murdoch has been playing a big role in his own defense. We see him conferring with his attorneys before the jury comes in during court every day. But the lawyer who specifically asked that question was Jim Griffin. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hey, Robert Crispin joining me, former homicide detective, formerly with DOJ, CrispinInvestigations.com. Robert, did you hear the witness talking about the financial misdoing, Jane Seconder? And she's just come off the stand. I don't think they're done with her yet, by the way.

The CFO of the Murdoch Law Firm. And she said she came upon Alex Murdoch and he gave her this dirty look. Robert, can I tell you the look, the piercing looks he was giving Gerards? I think it really made an impact on them. Yeah, a pivotal moment for him and her when she said, well, let's just go into your office and I'll tell you what's going on. I think at that point, he probably realized I've got problems and this girl knows. And I'm going to be honest with you, Nancy, this witness, if there was a list of people to eliminate, potentially could be on that list because it sounds to me like she did her own investigation and she found a lot of stuff and I think at that

moment that was the pivotal moment that he realized I've got problems and I think the perfect storm started to come together and it started to all fall apart well another thing Amy Zimmer check with, a high-profile lawyer who is representing Curtis, a.k.a. Eddie Edward Smith. This goes back to Murdoch getting shot in the head on a rural road. I don't know how familiar you are with the Murdoch law firm or if you know the lawyers within the Murdoch law firm. But I'm wondering if this witness miss Jean second juror he's very articulate she's calm poised and she never breaks I wonder if she knew Maggie I mean she had to know Maggie I know that they were a very close-knit PMP ed

which was the old law firm before now now it's the parker law group but i i believe that they were all very close i think that um you know not only did her husband work there but her brother-in-law uh randy murdoch uh and for quite some time her father-in-law uh randolph uh what they call handsome they they were all you know they were all a very close-knit group um and i think that that's probably a little bit of her anger and her hurt is that all of this is happening and she's learning about all of these things and i would be frustrated and upset as well i wonder if they realize that the name PMPED sounds like pimp. Yeah, don't give it any word today.

That's just me. Is that you, Dr. Michelle Dupree? Jump in. Even in court today, she was talking about how they would switch on and off from, you know, being coworkers to being more like friends and family. And I think Amy said this earlier. It really was like a brotherhood. And in the middle of the CFO confronting Alec Murdoch about these funds, she still was saying that she was giving him the benefit of the doubt and thought that these funds existed somewhere else, that he had put them in another account. She never thought, oh,

he blew through all of this money and stole all of our clients' money. Never. Well, we're going to hear a total, and I believe it's between $7 and $8 million that they know of, that was stolen not only from the law firm itself, but from the clients. And what it's going to boil down to is motive for murder. I want to go to Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me, pathologist, medical examiner. And this is important. Former detective, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide.

Dr. Dupree, I've seen murders over $5. I've seen a murder of a mother, a woman sitting outside on her porch over a drug deal a neighbor made. Just things you would never imagine someone would think worthy of a murder. But here we see the law firm has asked him to leave. Everything's coming out of his alleged drug problem. Just so many things are happening. He's swimming in debt.

And now his wife wants a divorce. And she's going to find out all about his financial misdeeds and that they don't have any money left. Motive for murder. I guess you've seen murders for a lot less than that, Dr. Michelle Dupree.

Absolutely, Nancy. And you know, we keep hearing that this is a distraction, that pretty much the whole motivation was a distraction from these financial problems. But I don't think that's exactly true. When we look at this, everything that you've just said, you know, there's a divorce going on. She may have actually found, I mean, she was a bookkeeper at some point in time. She may have told Alex that if she didn't get a divorce, she would expose that. And also, you know, his son, Paul, he's been a problem for a long time.

He's always been in trouble. So I think there are multiple reasons here for Alex to have possibly snapped and committed these murders, allegedly committed these murders. You know, another issue is the hearings in the Mallory Beach death, which you all know is the teen girl that was on the boat with Paul Murdoch. He was drunk and speeding. He slammed into cement pilings and she goes flying off. She died. Hearings regarding that were gearing up.

The divorce, the law firm, the money, the drugs, it was all imploding. To me, he seems like the kind of person. Let me ask you this, Robert Crispin. You've seen so many criminals that he was always finding a way to wiggle out of anything. And I wonder if that day, don't get mad about this, Amy Zimrichek, the day that he allegedly had Curtis Edward Smith shoot him. I wonder if it was planned for him to be shot on the side of his head. Maybe Cousin Eddie was a lot better shot than we know and not actually kill him and then make it appear that the assailant who shot him was the same person that shot Paul and Maggie?

Yeah, well, as an investigator, we call that a diversion. And if they wanted to shoot him in the head and kill him on the side of the road while he's on his knees changing his tire, that would have happened. Trust me. So it was a diversion. As an investigator, I'm going to tell you, they probably saw that as soon as they walked up. They knew everything that's been kind of going on already. Then they listened to that 911 call.

It just didn't fit. And this is why this is all starting to unfold the way it's unfolding. Hold on. We're running out of time, and we haven't even gotten to discuss the change of wardrobe. Guys, can I see that two-screen you showed early? It was so awesome. Thank can I see that two screen you showed early it was so awesome thank you for making that. You see Alex Murdoch outside wearing one outfit and they're obviously looking there you go with a tree falling over and I think you can hear Paul in the background as well and then just a

couple hours later whoa there he is in a very clean shirt with no blood spatters on it what happened to those other clothes where are they did murdoch discard bloody clothes okay kelly skiing fox nation senior producer joining us at the courthouse what about it kelly we have no idea where these clothes are nancy but something that we will definitely hear more about in this trial is the infamous raincoat that had gunshot residue found on the inside and it was found at Alec Murdoch's mom's house so where the clothes are from the Snapchat video nobody knows but what we do know and what we are expecting to hear a lot more about this is an explosive piece of evidence that the state has is that there was gunshot residue on the inside of a raincoat that

Alec Murdoch somehow had placed at his mother's house as well as on the seat belt of his car. You know I like what you just did there Kelly Skin you may want to consider a future in the legal field because I asked you what happened to those clothes, and you immediately went to the raincoat that was found covered in gunshot residue that a witness says Alex Murdoch bundled up and stuffed somewhere at his mother's house. So, I'm wondering, Kelly, because I did not catch it in opening statements, but did the prosecutor mention to the jury in openings that they were going to hear about Alex Murdoch making a wardrobe change, changing clothes from before the bloody murders until the cops got there. He's wearing something completely different. You know, I don't remember that from the opening

statements, but what we have heard from witnesses so far is that Alex Murdoch said that he wanted to check Paul's pulse and he tried to turn his body over. And these witnesses have said, well, one could assume if you are turning a body over, you would be covered in blood. Another witness also said she found it very strange. Alec Murdoch was sweating profusely on the night of the murders, yet his clothes were dry. So this is definitely not the end of the clothes saga in this trial. Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, you've had to turn over plenty of bloody bodies. How come Murdoch had no blood on his hands, his arms, his clothing, and a white t-shirt

for Pete's sake? Yes, nothing! Exactly, Nancy, I cannot explain it and if that is the case, if he really tried to do that, there would be blood somewhere on him. That is a real telltale sign. His son Paul's brains were down by Paul's feet. Now, how in the world could you turn over a body that has been shot that many times, both him and Maggie, covered in blood, and you don't have any blood even on your hands? Nothing? Exactly. I cannot explain it. And obviously, I think that that is not what happened. He would have to have blood on him somewhere. And we don't have those clothes that he was wearing. There was a video of him standing in a field showing him in long pants and a different shirt just a few hours earlier from when the police interrogated him or interviewed him. Well, another thing about that, Amy Zemurchek, guy's high-profile lawyer representing Curtis Edward Smith,

that really will go toward intent. That this was not just a fleeting moment of anger when he shot his wife and son, but intent. He had a change of clothes, if this is to be believed, Amy Zemurchek. Well, Nancy, I think the bigger problem is that the, and I know you haven't seen the picture because it's under protection, but the fact that his phone, his Paul's phone that had these two videos on it, these terrible videos for the defense, was laying on top of Paul because it had fallen out of his pocket somehow and Alec had placed it back on his on his son's deceased body and and i think that that's very problematic well and also the fact that they show blood inside of the back

pocket and you're so right dr dupree i'm hearing in my ear kelly skin i'm hearing in my ear they're about to start court again with or without the jury. Kelly Skian, I want to hear more of Jane Sechinger on the stand because she's awesome. Did you see the way she would cut her eyes over and look at Murdoch when she was talking about all that money he stole? She did, and she even gave it back to the defense attorney a little bit when he was asking her questions. She said, this is money that your client stole. And Alec Murdoch is sitting in court with the glasses on the tip of his nose staring at her so you can only imagine how that meeting went when she

confronted him about the funds to begin with but she is she is spot-on she is articulate she does not miss a beat and even when his defense attorney questioned her about oh so you did your own investigation on this she said well yes I did but so did the FBI we had a forensic accountant and law enforcement has all of this as well so she was not budging she firmly believes and as does the state that alec murdoch i could tell you this kelly all of this money they better not try to bully this lady on the stand because they will put out an arm and pull back a nub. I'm just telling you. And also, juries do not like it when a lawyer bullies an otherwise seemingly nice and straightforward witness on the stand. But I'm thinking about the way she

would look at him in court. Am I wrong or did he start crying in court again today? You know, I'm looking at the back of his head, so I didn't see if he was crying in court today. What I did see was the death stare and the glasses on the tip of his nose as this witness was speaking. Well, I think when they were talking about when she was talking about all the money he stole millions and millions of dollars from not only the clients, but the so-called brotherhood of lawyers that built that firm, that made that firm. Other lawyers who were upstanding lawyers, respected lawyers that look out for their clients. And here he was with his hands in their pockets. I think he started crying.

But you know what? He had plenty of time to think about that every single time he stole another settlement Kelly he did he did he could have thought about the clients that this money should have gone to and we even heard today that he allegedly stole a check from his own brother he cashed a check and then a year later cashed another check for that same amount of money after asking the CFO of his law firm to cut the check again because he lost it. So he's not only stealing from this brotherhood of lawyers, he's stealing from his, allegedly, from his real brother. And I was watching his brothers in court today to see if they had any reaction, but they've been pretty stoic today and didn't have much reaction as they're talking about these funds being funneled

from their law firm. Well, they're sitting there right beside Buster, who's in court every day with, I think, his girlfriend. So I'm sure they don't want to have any outburst in front of Buster. Robert Crispin, when you see a guy like Murdoch, I do, I wonder what in the hay were you thinking, man? You had it all and you did this over and over and over. But I learned about five years into it. Why ask why? Why does it matter? What matters is proving the case. It all goes to greed. Completely goes to greed. Yeah, greed turning into homicide and God only knows what else.

So we have no idea if Gene Sechinger is going to be back on the stand, but we know where the state is headed. I'm just waiting for them to somehow show the jury that Alex Murdoch actually had a change of clothing before the murder and after. I wonder if they've put that together yet. Okay, I'm hearing in my ear the judge is about to take the bench. We are going back into the courtroom. Everybody, we are live at the Colleton County Courthouse with the latest. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.