Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Murdaugh Murders: WAS MAGGIE MURDAUGH KILLED WITH FAMILY GUN?

Episode Date: February 3, 2023

Both emotional and technical testimony today in Alex Murdaugh's murder trial. The day started with Alex Murdaugh's defense lawyer grilling ballistics expert Paul Greer  Greer testified older shell casings found on the Murdaugh's estate and those found near Maggie Murdaugh's body were shot by the same weapon.  Defense lawyer Jim Griffin Greer challenged the testimony on the accuracy and creditability of what he called the "subjective" techniques used in firearms examinations. Alex Murdaugh's former best friend, Chris Wilson, shed tears as he recounted how Alex Murdaugh asked for money as allegations of financial crimes came to light. Wilson also testified that Murdaugh admitted to opioid addiction.   Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Criminal Defense Attorney, Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com, Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw Sheryl McCollum - Director and founder Cold Case Investigative Research Institute  ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Irv Brandt - Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch, Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs; US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica, Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE AVAILBLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY, ALSO "FLYING SOLO: Top of the World" Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com   Kelly Skehen -  Fox Nation Senior Producer  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Another day full of bombshells in the Alex Murdoch double murder trial. The jury has just taken a lunch break and we are live at the courthouse bringing you the very latest. Got an all-star panel of guests to break down what is happening in the courtroom right now as Alex Murdoch, flanked by his fleet of lawyers, listens as the evidence pours from the witness stand. A lot happening in court today. Today, for the first time, we see the family of Gloria Satterfield speaking out. And when I saw, I mean, he looked like a young boy to me on the stand,

talking about how nearly $4 million was stolen from his family after Ms. Satterfield falls to her death down the Murdoch steps. You know, I'm surprised he didn't break down crying about the death of his mother. And I can tell you another thing. I love the way this judge is handling the courtroom. He's moving it along, moving along, never rude, never curt. But the minute one witness finishes, he says, call your next witness. He keeps it moving. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, straight out to the front of the courthouse, standing by Kelly Skian, senior producer with me at Crime Stories. Kelly, thank you for being with us.

Kelly, we were on the cusp, the cusp of hearing Ballistics match up. Did you hear the last questions being asked of Agent Greer? And I really like this guy because there's a lot of male testosterone prancing around the courtroom. And this guy is very low key. He's very mild mannered. And he comes across as very believable to me. And when he said one of the last items he was talking about was from the left shoulder and the head of Paul Murdoch. That really brought it all home. What this is all about, Kelly. Who is this guy and what do you think he's going to tell us? Nancy, this is Special Agent Paul Greer. And actually in a pre-trial motion, the defense tried tooth and nail, really tried to throw out one last Hail Mary to block his testimony from being allowed in court.

What we are expecting to hear, based on what we've heard from him before the trial started, is he is going to say that the gun that Maggie Murdoch was killed with is a gun from the Murdoch property. So we are expecting him to say that the markings on the 300 blackout shell casings actually match markings on other 300 blackout shell casings that were already on the Murdoch property. And what we heard from Paul Murdoch's friend earlier this week was that the two of them actually used a 300 blackout months before the murder. So they are going to try and match those shell casings to the ones found near Maggie Murdoch's body. And like I said, this is a witness that the defense did not want to be allowed at trial, but here we are. Hey, if I could get

Christine in our New York control room, can you show Greer video again? This is the witness that I like so much. I mean, I've liked a lot of the witnesses, but this guy comes in, he's all business, but he's very laid back and mild mannered. And I like the way he's speaking to this jury. Very conversational. And that's what jurors need to hear, frankly, from every witness, but especially from a witness that is dealing with scientific data. And that is why, and let me throw this to you, Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer, joining me out of Jacksonville, and this is something that I like about Dale Carson.

Not that he's a defense attorney. Don't like that. I like that he's a former agent with the FBI. Dale, that is why I know they hated to see that old county crown Vic pull up to the front of the crime lab or the morgue, because I would be getting out Dale Carson to go through their report line by line to try to encourage them to speak regular people talk and not scientific talk. That's what I like about this witness Greer. He's making it easy for everybody to understand, even if they don't have a ballistics background. I think he is being very simple, and it conveys well to the jury. And I heard him use the word decontaminate, and then he immediately followed with the word touch, which is what he's talking about.

So he's removing all the extremely complicated scientific terms and speaking directly to the jury. And in that way, he makes himself extremely credible. And, you know, you said he's making it simple. He is by no means a simpleton, because when I heard his background and how he has already conducted thousands and thousands of ballistics comparisons. This guy is anything but a simpleton. Joining me also, Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, knows her way around a shotgun, I can tell you that much, and director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

Way in, Cheryl McCollum. You know, what he's doing is a beautiful job in explaining something that could be, for somebody that's never handled a firearm, somewhat confusing. So he's going to explain very clearly what this birdshot is. So when you have a shotgun and it's filled with, you know, birdshot or buckshot, these little bitty pellets, and if you stand two feet from a door and you have a handful of, let's say, a hundred, and you throw them at that door, it's going to be a tight pattern. They're not going to spread very far.

But the reason people use these for hunting birds is the further it goes, the more they spread out. So you're almost guaranteed to hit your target. You know, Cheryl McCollum, when you're striking a jury, you should never, ever judge a book by its cover. But when you said he's making it easy for people that don't handle firearms to understand, there's one lady, I love this lady, the judge keeps the courtroom so cold, bat me up, Kelly Skin, so the jurors will stay awake. I know that for a fact because I had an insider tell me that. And they get up and they get down, they stretch their legs to keep them awake. There's one juror in there, Cheryl McCollum, that she brings a blanket

with her and she pulls it all the way up, kind of like this, up in the juror. And, you know, she's all bundled up and I see those eyes looking over that blanket, staring at the witness. She never nods off. She never, I've never seen her blink. But I don't see her out on the range coming guns loaded. You see what I mean? So I like the way this guy is talking. So back to you, Kelly Skin.

Tell me one more time how you think he's going to zip it up. How is he going to, you know, button it up at the end for me? Sure. So what we are expecting from this witness after the break is essentially, in a nutshell, the point that he's going to make is that Maggie Murdoch was killed with a family gun that had previously been at Moselle. We are expecting him to say that the markings on shell casings next to Maggie's body match other shell casings at a different location on the property. And to your point about the courtroom being very cold, I did notice that juror had a blanket today. And I also even noticed the judge yawning at some point while there are bombshell after bombshell after bombshell in this trial.

There's also a lot of just kind of monotonous testimony whether it's financial crimes or the types of casings on the bullet or you know the types of casings the types of bullets the types of guns it's a lot of stuff that people don't yeah kelly please yes it's not boring it's what we in the biz call laying a foundation and unless you lay that foundation and believe me if not hart pooling and somebody on his team will jump up in a minute and say, that can't come in, they didn't lay the foundation. There's a very clear and intricate foundation that must be laid for every bullet, every shell casing, every item that comes into evidence, and it can be very, very painstaking.

And speaking of yawning, Miss Kelly, I just saw Hart Pullian, the lead defense attorney, yawn. I mean, when we were little, little in kindergarten, we were taught, don't yawn, it's rude. Couldn't he stifle it for Pete's sake? He's the lead defense attorney. He's yawning in front of the jury. He might be yawning in front of the jury, but something else I saw today is Alec Murdoch is definitely not yawning. He is looking at every single one of those jurors as they file into the courtroom and following them all the way to their seat. He stands.

He's very tall. You cannot miss his presence. He's not yawning. He's even pointing out exhibits on the screen. And like we talked about yesterday, playing a very active role in his presence. He's not yawning. He's even pointing out exhibits on the screen and like we talked about yesterday, playing a very active role in his defense. Well, maybe he can give Hart Poolean a little elbow action to keep Hart Poolean awake once they teach Hart Poolean how to work an iPhone. Christine, out of the control room, could you please, let's take it out of order. Let's go to our cut nine. Take a listen to this, everybody. If you had the passcode, right? Yes. Open it.

Without the passcode, typically you can't open it, correct? No, sir. You agree with me? I do, yes, sir. Okay. I'm sorry. So if you had that passcode, you could open it, delete photos, delete phone messages, delete text, delete whatever you want, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. And when you found that phone, it was locked? Yes, sir, it was. Okay. And was there any evidence that you saw that anything had been deleted from that phone in any of your, after your download extraction?

Again, I did not download or extract the contents of the device. The only thing that I saw was the home screen and made sure that the airplane mode was applied at that point. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. If you had the passcode, right? Yes, sir. Open it. Without the passcode, typically you can't open it, right? Yes, sir. Open it. Without the passcode, typically you can't open it, correct? No, sir.

You agree with me? I do, yes, sir. Okay, I'm sorry. So if you had that passcode, you could open it, delete photos, delete phone messages, delete text, delete whatever you want, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. And when you found that phone, it was locked? Yes, sir, it was.

Okay. And was there any evidence that you saw that anything had been deleted from that phone in any of your, after your download extraction? Again, I did not download or extract the contents of the device. The only thing that I saw was the home screen and made sure that the airplane mode was applied at that point, and then it was placed into an evidence bag. So, Kelly, is someone on the defense team unfamiliar with an iPhone? It seems to be, Nancy.

You just heard Dylan Hightower. He's with the 14th Circuit Solicitor's Office. And yesterday, he and Dick Harpulitan were going back and forth on how to put a phone in airplane mode. We've heard a lot about a ferro bag and putting phones into airplane mode so they can't be tampered with. There was a bit of a back and forth there about how can you put a phone into airplane mode. And as most iPhone users know, you can do that without the passcode. And another funny moment kind of in court was they were going back and forth about how Maggie Murdoch's phone could have gotten on the side of the road. They were talking about, do you throw your phone overhand? Do you throw it underhand? And Hightower said, I would simply

just fling it out the window like that. And that really seemed to stop Alec Murdoch's defense in their tracks there and they stopped their questioning yeah you know what my 91 year old mother can work an iPhone better than anybody I know so maybe she can give Hart Pooley a lesson on how to work an iPhone speaking of iPhones I don't want to go off on a tangent but sorry Christine once again got to go out of order. Can we please play cut five? Speaking of deleted items on a cell phone, it's not Maggie's cell phone I'm worried about. Take a listen to this. Specifically with Alex's phone, what did you discover when you're comparing these phone records to the phone itself, the call log? Once I started, I essentially built a digital timeline of all forms of digital evidence that we had had during that time frame. On the date in question on June 7th,

I only saw two FaceTime calls on the phone extraction, and I saw a series of around 73 phone calls on the Verizon call detail record. Okay. And what did that tell you when you saw that missing information? It could be a multitude of things. They were either removed by the user or the one responsible for using the device. It could have overlapped from the call log history. It could have been a series of things. So you didn't recover any deleted artifacts of the phone call that is correct no sir i didn't when i say deleted artifacts what what uh what

does that mean anything that was manually deleted from the device itself overlapped from call log history you know in all my years of using cell phones i've never had that happen. And I've actually never known an instance where I've had items deleted without me doing it myself. So Cheryl McCollum, what are they saying? Because I'm interpreting it to mean that Murdoch deleted 73 phone calls on June 7, the same day his wife and son were murdered. That's exactly how I interpret it. And Nancy, this could be one of those money trees that not only tighten that timeline, but show exactly that this person was trying to get rid of some type of communication that he made with the victims and possibly other people as well, that many.

But let's say he texted her or sent her a voicemail that was less than romantic he wants to get rid of that to show that they won't have any kind of trouble remember their marriage is as good as it can be he doesn't want any voicemail where he was cussing at her or using any type of vulgarity toward her and their situation he wants to get rid of those text messages where he lured her there, where even she told her friend, hey, something's up. He's acting fishy. That is exactly what I'm thinking, because we got it clearly yesterday

that he, Murdoch, lured Maggie there under the guise of, hey, my dad's about to die. I need you to come to Moselle. We need to go visit him. I'd like to point out he didn't go visit his dad that night and she didn't go visit the dad that night that we know of. So that was all just a big ruse. Irv Brandt, senior inspector, U.S. Marshal Service, International Investigations, author with DOJ. I mean, the U.S. government has sent Erbrandt all around the world in prosecutions. Erbrandt, thank you for being with us. 73 missing calls from Alex Murdoch's phone. All right. That could be an accident. But how likely is it to be an accident the night his

wife and son are murdered? In investigations, you don't believe in a coincidence and you don't believe in accidents. This was obviously a deliberate act and it's devastating to the fence. The jurors are going to see it as he's trying to cover up. He's trying to get rid of evidence that doesn't gel with his alibi. You know, you said that so perfectly, so succinctly, Irv Brandt. Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me there in South Carolina, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, former detective and author, and this says it all, of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. She's at dmichelledupreemd.com. Dr. Dupree, thank you for being

with us. I want to circle back to what we heard just before we came out of the courthouse. Paul Greer, Special Agent Paul Greer on the stand. He was just presented state's exhibits and he described them as bullets from the left shoulder and head of Paul Murdoch. I just wanted that to soak in just a moment. Dr. Dupree, how many times have you dug a bullet out of a dead body? More than I can count. How do you do it? Well, you are very careful to not put extra markings on the bullet. So you typically photograph everything, you document everything on a sketch, and then when you remove the bullet, you go adjacent to it to take the bullet out so that you do not place markings on it. But I want to say something about what he said.

He said that plastic was recovered from the left shoulder and head of Paul. This is most likely wadding. And in my experience, I am not a firearms examiner. However, in my experience, wadding that actually enters a body or causes injury from a shotgun typically goes only about six feet or so. Now, it can go much farther than that, but to find it in a body displaces that shooter probably within about six feet of the victim. Dr. Dupree, could you just put it in slow-mo and say that very carefully and slowly what you just said

because I find that extremely important. As do I, Nancy. The autopsy, according to the person that was just said, because I find that extremely important. As do I, Nancy. The autopsy, according to the person that was just speaking, found plastic in Paul's wound in the left shoulder and head. That plastic is most likely part of the shotgun wadding that was described by Agent Greer, who is awesome, by the way. But what that indicates to me is that the wadding can travel a distance, and I'm not a firearms examiner, but in my experience, it typically only travels about six feet or so to enter the body. Gravity takes over and it falls down after that. So to me, this tells me that the shooter was probably about six feet or so from Paul when he was shot.

Six feet or less, because wadding typically travels, as you just said, about six feet. Now, this goes hand in hand with the theory of a close-range shooting, which completely defeats the defense theory that there's probably two assailants. It shows me that all of this was close range. People were moving, and so the trajectory path, the angle of the bullets, means less and less and less. We've got stippling. We've got wadding inside the wound, inside Paul's body. Again, that shows close range contact. And Cheryl McCollum explained what is wadding and how does it get into the body.

It travels with the bullet when you're talking about a shotgun for sure. Absolutely. And this shooter left nothing to chance he was not going to shoot from a distance so when the projectile is released from the weapon the wadding comes with it and it will be separated usually you'll find it you know near but in this case we have evidence of it being in paul's body which if you include the length of that weapon, you're talking the shooter might have been six feet away, but that weapon could have been three to two feet away. Nancy, it's a plastic cup in which all of the actual rounds, either the birdshot or

the nine ball from a buckshot centers in. So the buckshot comes right as a cup out of the firearm, and that's what we're talking about here that went into the body. And Cheryl's absolutely right. You know, that shows extremely close range. And the fact that there are 48 actual pellets found in the shoulder area means that it has to be close range. Anything over that, you're going to have not quite so many actual rounds in the body.

Absolutely. So, Nancy, think of a saucer, and then a plate, and then a platter, and then it's bigger than that. So you're talking about a saucer that's how tight these projectiles were in a in a mass christine in the control room could you show me a picture please of paul and maggie or a single shot of each one of them because it's easy when we're talking about wadding on bullets. I found this bullet and I found that cartridge. These people were shot brutally, repeatedly. Look at Maggie.

Kelly, how many times was Maggie Murdoch shot? She was running. She was running, Kelly. She saw her son shot first, I believe, according to what we know right now. She saw and heard that. And she's running for her life. And when I look at them, I look at their faces and I imagine seeing your son, your child shot. And then suddenly you're running for your life. You're torn between

trying to save him and running. And then you're gunned down and you know who your killer is. This isn't some hypothetical. This lovely lady, this devoted mother to raising these two boys to working, to being a mom, is gunned down in a dog kennel along with her baby boy. And yes, I say baby boy. My son is six foot four. Well, he's six foot five now, and he's still my baby boy. I mean, is that getting lost on anybody in the courtroom, Kelly? This is the basis for the premeditation, too. You're right. I'm going to circle back on that. Go ahead, Kel.

So we know that Maggie was shot at least five times. And what we've learned from the prosecution is that she was shot second. So in all likelihood, she saw her own son, Paul, being shot, tried to run away and was shot five times. Some of those shots were execution style. Okay, I think that was you, Dale. Go ahead, jump in. It wasn't. You know, the premeditation becomes rather obvious. If he is, in fact, guilty, then he had to stage the weapons, and he had to have them present in the area where everybody would be when they're tending to the dogs and he's able to grab

the shotgun shoot his son first and then he has the other weapon in case there's a flaw with the first shotgun and then he can use the second gun as his wife runs away because of course distance makes it more difficult to kill somebody with a shotgun so that all plays into the premeditation that the prosecution will ultimately bring to bear against the defense. Nancy, can I jump in? Go ahead, dear. Dale's 100% right. And if you listen to what Alex Murdoch said

in his statement to police, he told us how he did it. He said that he and Paul had been out on the four-wheeler looking for hogs to shoot. Well, both of them would have had a weapon. He would have circled back around with that four-wheeler. Those two weapons were right there at the ready. You know, Irv Brandt, joining me, you've seen so many cases all around the world, but I'm just thinking about the dynamic between Paul and Maggie. Maggie has been standing by for years watching her marriage deteriorate. And if you really love

your children, you want your marriage to work. You want their father to be there. And she has stood by and seen alleged drug abuse, stealing money, exorbitant spending. And if you are on drugs, you have these wild mood swings, losing the money, just losing everything. And all that leads to this moment where she is gunned down in a dog kennel. That's exactly right, Nancy. Everyone has a breaking point. No matter how much you love your child, no matter how much you love your husband, the amount of things that are just stacking up and keep stacking up would drive her to the point of confrontation, maybe threats, then she obviously becomes a liability and also her child becomes a liability. And like I said before, with two weapons, if you have them staged out, that was a cold-blooded

act to use the shotgun first, then to pick up the rifle because you didn't want to take the time to reload the shotgun, then go to the rifle, then bring a person down, then walk up and do a close-range kill shot. Just completely, completely cold-blooded actions and premeditated actions. Kelly Skian joining me. Kelly has just walked out of the courtroom. So did Murdoch start crying again today? You know, I'm looking at the back of his head, so I did not see him crying today. But what I did see right before I left is an older lady, who I'm still working to identify, blew him a kiss.

She was sitting with the Murdoch family. He gave her a very, very big smile and a thumbs up. It's one of the first kind of shows of emotion outside of crying or just giving somebody the steel-eyed stare that I've seen from Murdoch so far. And I want to say one more thing about Maggie Murdoch. What we've also learned is that in all likelihood, she actually picked up and bought the weapon that she was murdered with. And I think that just speaks to the tragedy of this entire thing. Guys, I want to go back into the courtroom for you to hear the testimony yourself. Christine, I'm trying to get us back on on track.

Thank you for going with me. Let's go to our cut three. I'm just wondering how, if, if and how Alex Murdoch discarded his bloody clothing. Take a listen to Special Agent Katie McAllister on searching the house. Once I arrived on scene, myself along with Special Agent Croft were asked to go up to the main house to do a search of the property or of the home did you have a search warrant there was a search warrant yes was that search warrant executed it was not why not at the time of my arrival multiple family close friends were at the house rather than executing the search warrant and

displacing all of those people, we asked for consent and we were given it. And were a lot of people at that residence at the time? There were. You could give us kind of a rough estimate of the amount of people that were there. I would say maybe 20 or 25 people were in the home. When you walked through the house, were you alone? I was not.

Who was with you? I believe it was John Marvin Murdoch and Lee Coates. So John Marvin Murdoch is Murdoch's brother. Guys, they had permission to go into the home, but Dale Carson, that does not impress me at all that Alex Murdoch or one of his family gave permission. They're all lawyers. They know how bad it looks. If you go, hey, no, you're not coming in our house. You got to go get a search warrant because they know SLED's already probably got a search warrant as it is. So they gave permission. Even so, they should remove everybody from the house that's seen contamination. When you have other people at your shoulder watching what you're doing, you're not going to perform exactly what needs to happen. And that means a thorough search.

And that doesn't happen amid a bunch of people. It happens when you put crime tape around the house and you really do a thorough search. And the fact that they didn't do that makes me wonder why they simply allowed somebody to consent to the search. In Florida, you're commanded to execute the search warrant. That's a judge's authorization telling you to go do it. And it doesn't allow for taking someone's consent because that affects the actual carrying of the evidence, the location of the evidence, all of those things are affected by all these people being

in the house. I don't know if the people at Murdoch's place stayed in the home or not if they left to do the search. Go ahead, Dr. Dupree. Well, that's exactly right. This is very reminiscent of the JonBenet Ramsey case where the same thing happened and that crime scene was a disaster from

the beginning. And I'm wondering about this search. You do not allow other people to be in the house. Well, I haven't heard anything suggesting that there was a bad search other than Dale Carson and Dr. Michelle Dupree. Do we know anything about a bad search? Kelly Skinner, Cheryl McCollum, because I haven't heard a word about it other than people were walking around in the dog kennel. I know that. But when you find two dead bodies, for Pete's sake, your first concern is not, hey, back off. Your concern is, are they dead or alive?

What can we do, if anything, to save them? Is there a shooter on the grounds? I mean, there's a lot to take in. So second-guessing everything they do, I don't know if that's appropriate. Well, it may not be a bad search, Nancy. But it certainly is something that needs to... I'm asking, does anybody have a scintilla of evidence that

there was a bad search? Now, if there was, fine. We'll deal with it. But if there's not a bad search, then let's move forward. Does anybody have even a shred of evidence that the interior of the Moselle hunting lodge was the subject of a bad search? Yes? No? Okay, let's move forward. Sled agent McAllister looking for potential bloody clothes.

What, if anything, did she find? Take a listen to Hour Cut 4. Did you search the bedrooms? I did. You find any clothes, shoes, any evidence of clothing that would have blood on it or indicated had blood on it or tissue, anything that you saw in any of the bedrooms? How many bedrooms? Several. Several. You looked at all of them? Yes, sir, I did. Looked under the bed? I did. In the closet? I did.

See any evidence of any clothes that had been involved in any sort of altercation that had left blood or tissue or brains? See anything like that in any one of those rooms? No, sir, I didn't find anything like that. Okay, guys, I'm reviewing my notes, and guess what? You're right and I'm wrong. Okay, deal, guys, and I reviewing my notes, and guess what? You're right and I'm wrong. Okay, Jill Garson, I'm eating a dirt sandwich. Wait a minute. I'm eating a dirt sandwich here, all right?

Okay, well, let me listen then. And to you too, Dr. Dupree, there were all those people in the house during the search. You're right. And that's a very bad move. That doesn't mean anything was done inappropriately. That doesn't mean that the evidence was not secured. But it gives you a much higher likelihood, Dr. Dupree, that things can go wrong. And yes, it is reminiscent of the John Bonet Ramsey case when witnesses were not asked to leave. There were family friends there. A lot was happening. They needed to all leave and then take the witnesses separately and interview them

immediately. And I'm looking at my notes here and there were 20 to 25 people in the house during the search So you're right and I'm enjoying Dirt sandwich right now. Dr. Dupree Nancy one of the things that they forgot to do was to check all the drain lines and that's something you always do in a Case like this to determine whether or not there's any biologic material in the drain lines. And you do that with luminol and other processes, and that was never done. You're right. What about it, doctor? Yes, that is certainly one thing that should be done. You would always check for that in case

the perpetrator took a shower. There will be evidence of blood or other biological material in those areas. And we know that Alex did change clothes. I don't know if you guys remember the Chris Pine case where a young man was accused of murdering his own mother. There's a long backstory to that. But I remember blood being found in the drains. And it turns out that the killer had taken a nice long bath and probably shave, but definitely a long bath or shower after the murder in the home where the mom was murdered. So again, what killer would do that if they were worried about being discovered other than someone in the family that knew their way around the home and knew nobody was coming home. What killer commits a bloody murder and

then goes in to the family bathroom and takes a bubble bath for Pete's sake. So they're both right. Guys, we're talking about what's going down in the courtroom today, but I want you to hear more evidence about motive. Take a listen to our cut seven. It's fair to say that June 2021 and the months after the indebtedness to Colorado State Bank from Alec Murdoch was very, very large. Yes, sir. It's fair to say it also had charged off loans in the past. Is that correct? Yes, sir. If it had come out at any particular time, from let's say 2010 on up to June of 2021, or at any time

that Alec Murdoch had been stealing money from his partners or stealing money from his clients, with this bank have continued to loan him money. No, sir. Okay. Money, money, money. Now take a listen to Chris Wilson on the stand in our cut one. September the 3rd, 2021, about 3 o'clock in the afternoon when Mr. Lee Cope called me,

the first question he asked me was, was I still holding $792,000 in my firm? And I said, yes, I am. And he said, well, we need to get that money paid to us. They had discovered a check that I think I remember him telling me that was from me to Ellick in the firm and that they had discovered that Ellick was stealing money from the firm and from clients. The next morning I tried to call him. He called me back and said he would meet me in Alameda at his mom and daddy's house. Told me that he had had a drug problem, that he was addicted to opioids. He told me that he had been stealing money. I was so mad. I had loved the guy for so long and I probably still love him a little bit,. I was so mad. I had loved the guy for so long, and I probably still love him a little bit, but I was so mad.

Kelly Scan described that moment in the courtroom. Watching Chris Wilson testify against his once best friend from law school, they were even roommates at one point, was absolutely heartbreaking. At one point, he needed to take a break and compose himself on the stand. And when he left, Alec Murdoch was staring at him, waiting for him to look over. This is his former best friend. He just wants to look at him. And Chris Wilson looks down at the ground, would not make eye contact with Alec Murdoch,

and was sniffling on his way out of court. It was absolutely heartbreaking. And something else we learned from Chris Wilson is after that confrontation that he had with Alec Murdoch at his parents' house, Chris Wilson walked away from that encounter thinking that Alec Murdoch was going to kill himself. And not long after that, actually on Chris Wilson's drive home, he got the call that Alec had been shot. Wow. To Cheryl McCollum, you know, so often we see, well, what is claimed to have been an attempted murder-suicide, and then somehow it turns out to be just a murder. The thought that Alex Murdoch would kill himself, I don't see it. He loves himself above everything else. I just don't see it.

It could have been another stunt to engage sympathy. I mean, we saw OJ Simpson do the same thing. Michael Jackson, you know, he acted like he was going to harm himself as well or wrote a note. A lot of times it's just to invoke sympathy for people to say, oh, no, this is how upset they are. This is how much they care about what they did wrong. And sometimes it's just another level of their con. But this is another insurance scam is what it really was, right? If he didn't commit suicide and somebody shot him, then there'd be a double payout to his son Buster. I'm if it was successful. I'll tell you why. If they really wanted to kill

Murdoch to get that money, Curtis Eddie Smith would have just shot him again. I just don't think that's what happened. I think it was intentionally amiss, a grazing. So people would believe that the same person

that killed Paul and Maggie went after Murdoch. I think that was the whole thing. Because if the deal was shoot me dead, I want my only living son to get that multi-million dollar life insurance policy, then he would have just shot him again. That did not happen. Go ahead, jump in. So I agree, Nancy.

This is the South. We learn about firearms and handling guns when we learn our ABCs. If he would have, somebody would have wanted to shoot him dead, he would be dead by now. Yeah, there were plenty of bullets in that chamber. If Curtis Edward Smith wanted Murdoch dead,

he would have been dead. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, another thing happened just before the judge broke for lunch to Kelly Skin, Fox Nation producer joining us, just coming out of the courtroom, there were no fingerprints at all on the gun or the phone. And I'm talking about Paul's phone. And I find that very odd because Paul had been on his phone right up till the time of his murder. Yeah, Nancy, think about a phone. It's in our hands all day, every day. There are fingerprints all over it.

And today we heard from a fingerprint expert that there were, there was, not that there wasn't any fingerprints on his phone, but there was nothing that he could pull off of it. So that strikes me as very odd. He also didn't find any usable fingerprints on any of the guns that he was given. And something that I want to keep an eye on is if you remember when Alec Murdoch was being interviewed by police in the car, he asked police if anybody had gotten fingerprints off of Maggie's phone. So fingerprints are definitely on the top of Alec Murdoch's mind.

Another thing about the phone, Kelly, and for right now, I'm talking about Paul Murdoch's phone. Where was Paul Murdoch's phone discovered? Unfortunately, I did see a picture of this, and Paul Murdoch's phone is on the the one who placed it there after trying to turn Paul Murdoch's body over to see if he could find anything or get, find a pulse on Paul. So at a minimum, you would kind of expect for Alec Murdoch's fingerprints to be on Paul's phone since he admittedly touched it. Let me ask you something, Kelly. Would you please say that again? Murdoch says he touched Paul's body. And then in the middle of seeing your child dead, you're worried about where you're going to put his cell phone? Yes. Alec Murdoch admittedly says that he tried to turn Paul Murdoch's body over to see if he could

get a pulse on him. In the process, Paul Murdodock's phone popped out of his pocket and Alec, in his own words, picked that phone up and put it back on Paul's thigh. And that is the phone that fingerprint analyst... There's no way you check for a pulse with somebody who doesn't have half their head. That's ridiculous. Agree! And Kelly, wasn't there blood on the inside of Paul Murdoch's pocket? There was blood on the inside of his pocket. There was a pool of blood underneath his body. So how this phone is clean, I'm not quite sure. Cheryl McCollum, a forensic expert. Weigh in. I can tell you, the phone is clean, just like Alec murdoch's hands are clean because they never touch the blood he didn't check for a pulse he didn't cradle his child he didn't grab him and

hug him he didn't say a prayer over him or nothing else there's no way um i hear you jumping in del carson go ahead yeah there's no way that you would examine your son when part of their skull is missing and they've been clearly shot with a shotgun. Checking for the pulse is a ridiculous impulse. I've seen these things happen before. People who love a child or a person who's injured, they do exactly what Cheryl said. They grab them, they shake them to try to bring them back to life,

and that puts blood all over the individual who is trying to hold the deceased loved one. And so that process probably never occurred, and just because he's a lawyer doesn't mean he knows how to perform the perfect crime. Joining me is former U.S. Marshals Service International Investigator, Chief Inspector Irv Brandt. Irv, what do you make of what you're hearing? Because I believe that as soon as a jury comes back from lunch, Paul Greer, Special Agent Paul Greer, is going to make an analysis and compare what he finds at the scene, cartridges, tool markings, to other cartridges there on the scene

and definitively tell the jury that that night, one of the murder weapons was a Murdoch family gun. It's the nail in the coffin for the defense. They're setting it up. You were talking about it earlier. It takes time to lay the foundation.

It's tedious at times, but it's necessary. And then when they come back from lunch, this is where the hammer drops. They're going to put it all together and the jury's going to see it, you know, for what it is. You start piecing it together and you see it a little bit at a time, a little bit at a time. Then the picture becomes larger and larger. And this is what it's all leading up to. I'm still not over the wardrobe change from yesterday where we see Alex Murdoch in one outfit in the afternoon and then immediately after the

murders he has on a very pristine white t-shirt. There's a wardrobe change in there somewhere and coincidentally in between the wardrobe change a double murder went down. I'd be curious to find out if the clothing on the left of the screen has ever been found. But guys, another son, in addition to Buster Murdoch, lost his mother. And of course, I'm talking about Gloria Satterfield's son, the housekeeper that, by some accounts, was pushed to her death at the Murdoch home. By other accounts, she somehow stumbled down the steps and died. Take a listen to painful testimony on the stand in our Cut 8. Did your family advise you that there was some media reporting about a settlement in the case? Yes. All right. And at that time, had you heard anything from Alec or Corey or Chad or anybody about a settlement in the case? No.

Did you make a phone call to Alec? Yes. And what month was that in? I believe the last time I talked to him had been June of 21. Around the time of the murders? Yes. And what did you ask him? I can't believe what I asked him, but it was still making progress and be ready to settle by the end of the year. Did he tell you that they had already gotten a settlement

for $505,000? No. Did he tell you that they had already gotten a settlement for $3.8 million? No. Had he ever told you that there was an umbrella policy for $5 million? No. Did you give him permission to steal your money? No. You've come to find out that there was a settlement under the umbrella policy for $3.8 million. Is that correct? Yes. And a large portion of that was diverted by Alec Murdoch.

Is that right? Yes. Did you ever get one cent from Alec Murdoch before all of this happened? No. Did you see those empty chairs behind the prosecutor? That's the jury panel where they sit. They didn't hear that. So right now we know more than the jury does.

And I also noticed, Kelly, did you notice that Michael Satterfield doesn't look over at Alex Murdoch? He is not looking at him. That's telling me a lot. But when I heard him talking about the settlement after his mother, she was a young woman. Wasn't she in her 50s? I believe she had a whole life in front of her. Just falls, falls out of the blue after 20 years of working there, falls down the steps and dies.

And when you hear Paul Murdoch on the phone, he sounds ice cold. There you go. There is Michael with his mother, Miss Gloria. And he just looks so wounded on the stand, Kelly, to lose his mother and then find out the lawyer that they trusted screwed them over, but good to the tune of at least $4.35 million and a possible $9.35 million. Took it all himself and spent it. I mean, talk about heartbreaking, Nancy. This man's mother was also referred to as paul murdoch and buster murdoch's second mother gloria satterfield was with them as the nanny and as the housekeeper and her own son after she dies does not know that his family has gotten any money

until reading it in the news not one cent they're millionaires, Kelly. And we learned today that Alec, well, we've already known this, but what we heard in court today was that Alec Murdoch used that Satterfield settlement money to pay off his loans at Palmetto State Bank. You know, it just turns my stomach how people get taken advantage of, how the rich and the powerful take advantage of those less cunning than they are. And they never have a voice. They didn't even realize they were millionaires. But Murdoch had taken it all and was using it for his own expenses, his own bad loans he couldn't pay back. And from what I understand, there was an extremely strong bond between Gloria Satterfield and

this son, Michael Satterfield. And when I listen, correct me if I'm wrong, everybody, because you've listened to it too. The 911 call when Maggie and Paul were calling 911 about Gloria falling to her death. I remember Paul, I'm pretty sure I remember he said, it's the lady that works for us. This is the woman that helped raise him for Pete's sake. The woman that works for us. Uh-uh. Do you remember that, Cheryl McCollum?

Vaguely, but again, it goes toward where he thinks this person's station is. You know, they obviously felt that way. He did anyway. So when you look at who you're going to steal from and who you're just not going to care about, you know, their children, it goes right with, you know, this story that we've heard from the beginning. He doesn't care about anybody but himself. Nancy, let me mention something about the crime scene. The fact that that shotgun that is purportedly going to be used to show

connection to the shotgun shells that killed Paul, you know, the fact that that shotgun was not discovered there at the actual crime scene indicates that somebody took it back and put it away where it ordinarily would be found later. And the only person to have access to that house after all of this was one person. Alex Murdoch, you know, neither weapon has been found, has been recovered. Those weapons are long gone. Erbrandt, I was about to ask you, you've not only worked with the U.S. Marshal Service and the DOJ, but you have sat by while many a jury is struck. And I guarantee you that jury is not packed full of millionaires like Alex Murdoch. They are people like our families, Workers. Workers that typically work for somebody

else. And they haven't heard one word about all the millions that Murdoch gorged himself on. Other people's money. And it all came to a head. Did you hear? Satterfield State, I called him, and the lawyer says, wasn't this right before the murders? And he says, yes. And I was asking him about that settlement. I read about it in the paper. It was all coming to a head, Irv. Nancy, the answer to all questions is money. We know this.

That's where the trail leads. It's really going to depend on what the court allows in on this testimony of bad acts by the defendant. When the defense opens the door and the state walks through and can start bringing this type of evidence in. And it shows just the amount of greed. And it's always the answer every single time. It's always about money. And they'll say it's about money in this case. Kelly Skian, is it true that the Murdoch family was absent when the jury was absent, even though Murdoch was in there? That's

right, Nancy. I found that very strange. Yesterday and today, only Alec Murdoch's sister was there when the jury wasn't present. And then right before the jury is brought in each day, his brothers, his son and his son's girlfriend file right back into the court. Now, Kelly, you were with me when we left the courthouse and we were looking for a place to eat dinner. It was getting late. And we came upon people that told us the Murdoch family is leaving, I guess, during lunch or at least after court and staying at some mansion that's costing several thousand dollars a day. And I guess eating lunch there away from prying eyes where they can powwow about what's going down. So clearly they knew there was nobody to impress.

The jury wasn't going to be there. And they didn't show up just for Alex Murdoch, who was there, but only came in moments before the jury came in. Am I understanding this correctly? That's right. And I've also noticed that Alec Murdoch's demeanor is very different when the jury is there compared the room and the prosecution is going through all of these alleged financial crimes, Alec Murdoch is pointing at the display screen, conferring with his lawyers, passing notes back and forth. When the jury is there, his head is down and he rocks back and forth and he's very focused. But when they are not there, I see a different Alec Murdoch. Has he ever shed one tear when the jury's not there, Kelly? Not that I can see, Nancy. Not that I can see. However, when Chris Wilson was on the stand

yesterday, yes, when Chris Wilson was on the stand yesterday, Alec Murdoch was very upset. Did he cry? Yes, he was wiping his eyes with tissues. And that was with no jury present. Correct. But I think what we have to think about here is this is a personal relationship that Alec Murdoch has had since the 80s unraveling in front of his eyes. He hadn't seen Chris Wilson since that conversation at his parents' house. He texted Chris Wilson. He wrote a letter to Chris Wilson. So I'm not sure exactly what those tears were for, but I definitely did

see them yesterday when the jury wasn't there. However, I haven't seen them through the other financial crimes that are being laid out. He knows Chris Wilson, has known him for years and years and years. And Chris Wilson himself was tearing up on the stand over the betrayal by one of his best friends, Alex Murdoch. I could see that. Well, okay, here's two words of wisdom to the defense. Number one, teach Harpoolian, the defense lawyer, not to yawn in front of the jury and teach him how to use an iPhone.

And number two, be prepared to give Alex Murdoch the elbow when you need him to turn on the waterworks in front of the jury. And maybe the jury's not watching everything, but guess what? We are. We're getting ready to go back in the courtroom. Thank you for being with us during the lunch break. Let's head straight back in and see who the next witness will be. Thank you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off.

Goodbye, friends. This is an iHeart Podcast.