Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Murdaugh to Get New Murder Trial? Stephen Smith Cause of Death Reveal

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Will Alex Murdaugh get a new trial?  So far the possibility is up in the air, as allegations of jury tampering have been levied against Colleton County Clerk of Court Rebecca (Becky) Hill.  Hill has denied any wrongdoing. At the same time Hill's son, Jeff, has been arrested and is facing charges related to wiretapping.  SLED agents accuse Jeff Hill of illegally recording conversations of deputy county administrator Meagan Utse.  She served as a liaison between the county and the court during the Murdaugh murder trial. Jeffrey Hill is the technology director at Colleton County Administration. New information is also coming in on the death of Stephen Smith. The 19-year-old was found lying in the middle of the road.  His car was found three miles away. The coroner's office ruled the death a hit-and-run.  After having her son's body exhumed and a new autopsy performed, we learn Smith was killed by blunt force trauma. Forensic Pathologist Dr. Michelle Dupre, who oversaw the exhumation, reveals the findings Joining Nancy Grace Today: Sandy Smith - Stephen Smith’s Mother Ronnie Richter – Attorney for Sandy Smith, Satterfield family, and other victims of Alex Murdaugh; Partner, Bland Richter Law Firm; Twitter: @BlandRichterSC Caryn Stark – NYC Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Twitter: @carynpsych, Instagram: carynpsych, and FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Dr. Kenny Kinsey- Kenny Kinsey & Associates LLC, Forensic Expert in Murdaugh murder trial; Orangeburg County Chief Deputy, Crime Scene Reconstruction Expert, and Former SLED Special Agent; Twitter: @DrKennethKinsey Todd G. Shipley, CFE, CFCE – Cyber Crime Expert, and Author: “Investigating Internet Crimes: An Introduction to Solving Crimes in Cyberspace;” Twitter: @webcase Dr. Michelle Dupre – Forensic Pathologist and former Medical Examiner, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide”, Ret. Police Detective Lexington County Sheriff’s Department Jennifer Wood - Director of Research at FITSNews; Twitter: @IndyJenn_  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Will Alex Murdoch somehow manage to finagle a new murder trial in the cold-blooded killings of his wife and son, Paul and Maggie. Is that happening? Again, his son, his living son, Buster Murdoch, denies involvement with Stephen Smith's death. This as we have the result of yet a second autopsy on Stephen Smith, and we learn a rape kit was conducted on the teen boy. All of this swirling while the clerk to the court, Rebecca Hill, denies all allegations that she somehow tampered with the Alex Murdoch jury.

What will a new autopsy reveal? Is it true that teen boy Stephen Smith actually died of a blow to the head? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. With me, an all-star panel. But first, I want to go out to a special guest, Jennifer Wood, Director of Research, FitzNews.com. Jennifer, is Alex Murdoch getting a new trial? Lord, help us all.

I know. I mean, I think every every week the more that comes out the more i lean towards it being a possibility but there's still a lot of what ifs we're still waiting to hear which judge gets assigned to oversee it by the supreme court we're still waiting to hear if there will be an evidentiary hearing but with the arrest of clerk of court Becky Hill's son Jeff Hill for wiretapping it's not looking great okay wait wait wait explain that guys we're talking about Alex Murdoch the legal heir to an incredible legal dynasty in South Carolina who was charged and convicted of double murder. Is he getting a new trial? And a lot of it swirls around and they dug deep, the defense did, and they came up with a grounds for reversal, or so they think. And that is that somehow the clerk of

court, Rebecca Hill, who I met, she seemed very professional to me. I find it very hard to believe she would do anything to tamper with the jury. But their claim is she, let me just say, goaded the jury into a quick verdict. Would you say that's the claim, Jennifer Wood? I think that's, I think that's the gist of it, yes. Joining me, high profile lawyer out of that jurisdiction who is partnered with the Bland Richter law firm and the lawyer for the Stephen Smith family and the Gloria Satterfield family. Ronnie Richter joining us. Ronnie, what do you make of the defense claims by Alex Murdoch that somehow the clerk of the court tampered with the jury and there has to be a new trial?

I think it's problematic. I think if it is proven true that the madam clerk herself walked into the jury room and said to the jurors that they're about to hear testimony that they should disbelieve. I think that is presumed prejudicial. I don't see any remedy other than the grant of a new trial. If that's proven to be true. Let's analyze exactly what has been said. And let me remind you, with me is Dr. Kenneth Kinsey, the expert on the Murdoch murder trial. Also with me, Dr. Michelle Dupree, who can tell us everything available to the public right now regarding the second autopsy of Stephen Smith, including his

cause of death. Todd Shipley with me, cyber crime expert and author, and Karen Stark with us, renowned psychologist. But Jennifer, I want to back it up to the claim that Becky Hill somehow tamed the jury. Exactly what is the defense arguing? So the defense is arguing that in, you know, during the time that the jury was in panel that she said things like watch, watch Alex's body language when he was testifying. And, you know, other things that could have been prejudicial to the jury. But, you know, some jurors say that they never saw that happen. Some jurors say she did say that. Well, let me understand one more thing, Jennifer Wood.

Is this allegation coming from the juror that was and her ex-husband that was thrown off the jury? One of them, yes. One of those jurors is that juror, the egg juror is how we refer to her because when she was leaving, she asked to bring a dozen eggs with her. Yes, I was there for that. And I think the judge didn't understand what she was saying at first, as many of us did not. She wanted to go back into the jury deliberation room to get the eggs she had brought in that morning for the jury. She did not want the jury to have the eggs, the 12 eggs, since she was getting thrown off the jury. That's the only way I could take that is that if I can't have them, no one will.

So she was given permission to go back in the jury deliberation room to get her eggs. Now, hold on. She was already thrown off the jury. So I would argue that would taint her credibility. But how does her ex-husband fit into it, Jennifer Wood? So her ex, I mean, this is all convoluted, but allegedly her ex-husband, the clerk of court, Becky Hill, saw a Facebook post on a local Facebook group that her ex-husband had made that she was speaking about Alex Murdoch and his guilt or innocence outside of the jury room. And she reported that to Judge Newman, but that really wasn of hers when she was delivering a refrigerator over the weekend about Alex Murdoch's guilt or innocence. And they were brought in to, you know, they completed affidavits and were brought in to testify under oath about that in camera.

Wow. And what was it she allegedly said to them? She was just, you know, espousing whether or not she believed Alex was guilty or innocent before the end of the trial. What, you know, they're not supposed to talk outside of the... Absolutely not. Joining us is Ronnie Richter, high profile lawyer with Bland Richter there in South Carolina. Ronnie, there has to be an evidentiary hearing for all I know. They've already had one behind closed doors, but we haven't heard about it yet. There has to be an evidentiary hearing to make a record in case a new trial is not granted so the appeals court can review the evidence.

Yeah, no doubt. And I can tell you there has been no evidentiary hearing. And I know that because we currently represent four of the jurors who deliberated on the murder conviction. You may recall that there was a point in time where Dick Harpootlian had gone public about this and made some comment to the effect that if you're on that jury, you might want to lawyer up. And so we extended our services for free to anybody who felt like they wanted to. Now, why did the defense attorney, Harpootlian, or one of them anyway, he had a fleet, why did they tell the jurors they needed to get lawyers? I don't know. We thought it was stunning to say such a thing.

There's no legal exposure for anybody on that jury. But to the extent any of them felt concerned by that, we threw it out there to the world that we're happy to do that for free. And so far, four jurors have signed up. So I can tell you there's been no evidentiary hearing. At any evidentiary hearing, all of the jurors will be impaneled and question about what they heard back in the deliberations. Well, I know this. I know the clerk, Becky Hill, has denied any jury tampering allegations. She has spoken out. She says she did not tell them to watch Alex Murdoch, that they should reach a quick verdict, that she did not speak to them singly or as a group. So I've got to weigh what

she's saying against what the juror, the I want my eggs juror is saying. And Jennifer Wood, are you telling me other jurors agree that Becky Hill tampered with their process of reaching a verdict? So I believe in the state's response, they included statements from most of the jurors except for one and there were two other jurors that said that she i don't know that they specifically said she had but that they had heard outside of of the courtroom to watch alex's body language while he was testifying they can't just make a blanket allegation that somebody somewhere told them to watch his body language. I mean, that's not going to hold any water, Ronnie Richter. You've got to have a name, a direct allegation, and then that direct allegation has to be weighed in court and tested under cross examination to determine, did it happen? And if it did happen, did it affect their impartiality? It's not just did it happen.

For all I know, they could ride by a billboard and see a 1-800 number for tips on the Murdaugh case. Someone could have yelled out on their visit to Moselle, the jury visit to the scene of the crime. Hey, he did it. But did that affect their verdict? It's not just did it happen, Ronnie. It's did it affect their verdict? It's not just did it happen, Ronnie? It's did it affect their verdict, Ronnie Richter? Well, I think you're 100 percent right there. Without violating any privilege, I can't tell you the folks we represent will not support any allegation of jury tampering.

I do think, however, though, that if they can prove this allegation. Oh, there's going to be a new trial. Oh, there's going to be a new trial. Yeah, there's going to be a new trial. It's going to be presumed prejudicial. So I don't think we get to the cut about, you know, did it affect the outcome or not? I think the jury tampering itself is so prejudicial to the process that we have to throw out the result. But the question is, can they prove this actually happened? Exactly. Exactly. OK. This is what I'm saying. If I have to weigh credibility like the judge will and like an appellate court will, you have to decide between, you know, amorphous claims somebody told me to watch body language. That's not going to cut it. It's got to be something firm.

There's got to be a direct speaker. It has to be tested in court and shown in court. But if it is shown, then there will be a new trial. So you've got to weigh the credibility between the court clerk, Rebecca Hill, and what the I want my eggs juror is saying. That's how that's going to go down. But now, on to another, another twist in the Alex Murdoch case. Does it ever end, for Pete's sake? First of all, take a listen to this. Hampton County 911, where's your emergency? Hello, I just called down at Parkerville Road.

I see somebody laying out. What road are you, what's the name of the highway that you're on? I see somebody laying out. What road are you, what's the name of the highway that you're on? I know it's Crockettville Road. You just know it's Crockettville Road? Yeah. Hold on just a second. And which way are you headed?

Okay, I'm going back where the code is. Are you going towards Brunson? Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay, you're on that road just before you get into Crockettville? 10 o'clock will be the right. That's right. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace hampton county now one where's your emergency hello um i just going down the wrong pocketville road i see somebody laying out what road are you what's the name of the highway that you're on uh i know it's crockerville road just know it's crockerville road that you're on? I know it's Crockettville Road.

You just know it's Crockettville Road? Yeah. Hold on just a second. And which way are you headed? Okay, I know the back way to go to Horton, Brunson. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay, you're on that road just before you get into Crockettville? 10 o'clock will be there to meet that right.

You are hearing the 911 call out of Hampton County regarding the discovery of the body of Steven Smith. As you will recall, Steven Smith, a teen boy that lived in the area, founded not too far from the same location, Moselle. That is the Murdoch hunting lodge. And the Murdoch family has been forever hounded by claims that somehow they were part of this. And Stephen Smith's mother. Ms. Smith, I want to thank you so much for being with us. First of all, I want you to tell us what it has been like

for you to finally have been taken seriously regarding an autopsy for your son. Yeah, so at the beginning, it was just me crying, you know, and begging people, and nobody would listen. And finally, we got the GoFundMe to do what I've always wanted to do, and that was to get a second opinion on his autopsy. I was absolutely surprised of how quick the GoFundMe grew. And we were able to take part of that money and start a scholarship in Stephen's name. And right now, that's the best part of this adventure that I've been going through.

With us is Stephen Smith's mother. You never believed he was hit by a car. Why? Because he wouldn't have been in the roads. He was very skittish of people. And if there was a car coming, he would have hit in that cornfield or in the woods. He would not have voluntarily walked down that highway. And he had a cell phone. He would have called his twin sister. His wallet was in the car. And if you're walking to go get gas, you would not leave your money in the car because the only

thing on him was his cell phone and his car key. What happened the night that Stephen Smith was killed? His body found a stone's throw from the Murdoch Family Hunting Lodge. What do we know? Take a listen to Hour Cut 65. Neither Sandy Smith nor the investigators with the South Carolina Highway Patrol believed that Stephen Smith had been hit by a car. The initial incident report noted Smith had suffered blunt force trauma to the head and while Smith's body was lying on the center line of the roadway, the responding officer saw no evidence of a vehicle accident. His notes indicate there was no vehicle debris, skid marks or injuries consistent with someone being struck by a vehicle. Also, Smith's shoes were on both of his feet and loosely tied.

After the pathologist's autopsy, at least two investigators disagreed with the hit-and-run determination. Their notes also indicate the county coroner disagreed with the finding as well. And there's more. From the South Carolina Highway Patrol, Lieutenant Thomas Moore speaks out. A former South Carolina Highway Patrol Lieutenant Thomas Moore responded to the scene the day Stephen Smith's body was found on a Hampton County road, and he tells WJCL that he knew at the beginning the 19-year-old Smith was murdered. He further claims that SLED, the sheriffs, and the Hampton County Coroner's Office didn't do their jobs that day. It took new evidence in the Murdaugh murders to bring about a reclassification

from the hit and run that Moore says was never right to the homicide that he believes it always should have been. Moore says it didn't appear Smith was hit by a car. His road rash was minor. His shoes were still on his feet. Moore says he took the case as far as he could and nothing happened until now. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning right now,

including Dr. Michelle Dupree, who oversaw the second autopsy on teen boy Stephen Smith, and Dr. Kenneth Kinsey, forensic expert in the Murdoch murder trial he shot to fame then, former Orangeburg County Chief Deputy, now owner-operator of Kinney Kinsey & Associates, former SLED Special Agent. Dr. Kenneth Kinsey, what do you make of the findings that Stephen, the original findings that Stephen Smith died of a hit and run? Well, Nancy, I think that battle is a battle that's seen a lot in our state where, you know, highway patrol, is it theirs? Is it the sheriff's office?

Is it the local authority? And I'm used to that battle. And I'm not even going to say it's wrong because you're trying to ensure proper jurisdiction in an incident like this. And unfortunately, it gets passed around because those jurisdictions and responsibilities aren't highlighted enough in our legislation. But as far as Stephen's death is concerned, this is an atypical incident. And though I agree and, you know, I come into this thing with with an open mind, the evidence is what the evidence is. OK, you didn't answer at all. Do you think he died of a hit and run or no?

Let me help you along, Dr. Kenneth Kinsey, with Dr. Michelle Dupree. I'm trying to politely cut you off before you give an answer you may want to change in five minutes. Oh, but hey, before I go to Dr. Dupree, Dr. Kinsey, I sat through the trial. I heard the evidence. And it's very difficult for me to believe that anyone of sound mind can actually believe that Alex Murdoch is innocent. Now, there's some wild cockamamie theory floating around that he owed drug debts and that the, you know, unnamed anonymous drug lord killed Maggie and Paul and made him watch. Okay. You don't think that big cry baby would blurt that out between then and now?

Murlog would, he'd be telling that in a New York minute. Kenzie, that's just like the same thing with O.J. Simpson. Let's see. There's a theory that the sun did it. There's a theory that dopers did it. Oh, there's so many theories. None of them are grounded. In fact, do you actually meet people, Dr. Kenzie, that believe Murdoch didn't do it? I do, Nancy. I do. And generally, their thought process is a parent won't kill their child. And we know that's not true. We see it all the time. You know, I would go to Ronnie Richter right now, but I don't think I'd like what I would hear. Let me go to something grounded in fact. Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me.

We're now pathologist, medical examiner, former detective, author of Money, Mischief, and Murder. The Murdoch Saga. The rest of the story is on Amazon. I've started reading your book and at times it's painful, Dr. Dupree, because I'm having to relive all the BS the defense floated during that trial. But that said, it's wonderfully written. You are also the author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, you supervised the second autopsy of teen boy Stephen Smith. And it took his mother, Sandy, who is with us, eight years to get the money for a new autopsy. And if it had not been for the bland Richter law firm, it may never have happened

because they really put it out there that she's trying to raise money, but it did happen. Tell me, Dr. Dupree, about exhuming his body, taking it for a new autopsy, and what, if anything, you can tell us. First of all, tell me about the exhumation of the body. I thought it was going to be a very sad day, and I was so surprised that it was not. It was a joyous occasion. Sandy was there. Some family members were there. Of course, SLED was there, the funeral home. And she was so happy that this was actually happening. I just can't say enough about how strong she was. And the exclamation took place without incident. SLED was there. We took the body immediately from the cemetery in the vault that it was in.

We took it to the vault company and took the casket out of the vault and immediately transported it with a sled escort all the way to Tampa, Florida. Why did you feel that his body needed a sled escort? Because we wanted to maintain a chain of custody. We didn't know what we were going to find, and we wanted to start from the beginning. We wanted to look at any and every possibility and not be clouded by, oh, this is just an exhumation. We wanted to do this right, and we did. Tell me about the autopsy itself. Where was it conducted? How was it conducted? Tell me the whole thing. Okay. It was conducted in Tampa, Florida, by a forensically trained pathologist. We took the body in the casket. We did not open the casket until we got to the facility where the autopsy would be done. SLED was there the entire time, as was I.

We photographed everything. We documented every procedure and everything that was done. SLED was even in the autopsy suite during the autopsy, as was I, taking the photographs and documenting the evidence. And we did a complete, and when I say complete, I mean from head to toe. We did the exact same thing that you would do if it was the first autopsy. It was a little more difficult because, of course, the organs had already been examined, as had the body. But we were still able to get a complete and thorough second autopsy and get all the information that we needed. Who performed, as you supervised, who performed the autopsy?

A forensic pathologist named Daniel Schultz in Tampa. And what is his background? He is, again, forensically trained and board certified. He has been in practice for several years. When I worked in Miami, I actually knew of him. I did not work with him, but he is well respected in the community and has been practicing for a long time. Are you happy with your results? Absolutely. And who else was in the room? There were SLED agents that had accompanied us. Three SLED agents accompanied us all the way from the grave site to Tampa and then all the way back to the grave site that same weekend. How long did the autopsy take, Dr. Dupree?

The autopsy took approximately six hours. And after that, we looked at the findings. We discussed the results that we had so far. Some tests were still pending, and we received those at a later date and received a report from Dr. Schultz, as well as I submitted my notes to SLED, the same thing. Now, isn't it true that you found a 7 1⁄2-inch fracture on Stephen Smith's skull? On his right forehead, yes. On his right forehead. What's the significance of it being on his right front? Now you're saying his right front, not as you're looking at it, but his right front. That's correct. His right front, right above the eye.

Right above his right eye, going back or going to the side? Going upward. Seven and a half inches. Is that correct? Yes. I know you said he's got a seven and a half inch skull fracture on the right side, starting above his right eye and going upward and backward. Did that cause a brain injury? That in and of itself did not. Did he have a brain injury? Yes, he did. Would that technically be the cause of death, injury to the brain? Blunt force trauma, head trauma that did cause injury to the brain, yes. So when you have blunt force trauma to the skull and the brain, why does that kill you? Does the brain quit telling the body to perform? It does. There's several different mechanisms, and the one in this case was because there was such significant damage to what we call the basilar skull, which is inside where the brain sits on top of.

That skull was fractured like an eggshell, and so this was an unsurvivable event. It causes brain swelling. It causes brain swelling. It causes some bleeding. It causes death almost instantaneously. To Sandy Smith, this is Stephen Smith's mother. You had long believed that your son, Stephen, had been tortured. Were you surprised by Dr. Dupree's autopsy findings? I don't know much, but I do know that Dr. Dupree told me

and comforted me in knowing that Stephen was unconscious. So he didn't realize what was going on and that kind of, because I always thought he went through torture, you know. So she did put my heart to rest on that part when he didn't suffer. And what do you mean by that, Dr. Dupree, that he didn't suffer? Nancy, when he was initially struck on the front of the head and pushed down to the pavement and a secondary fracture caused that significant damage, he would have been unconscious. We do think that he was breathing just for moments

until his death. Sandy Smith, Stephen's mother, waited eight years to hear that, Ms. Smith. Exactly. And it's like, I waited eight years to hear those words that I was right. You know, not that I wanted to be right, but I wanted, you know, a little peace of my heart knowing that what I said was the truth. And now I have people in my corner that is willing to help fight for Stephen. Stephen's death was not in vain. There's going to be some good that comes out of this. To Karen Stark joining us, renowned psychologist, TV, radio trauma expert, and consultant at KarenStark.com, Karen with a C.

Karen, it's horrible enough to lose someone you love. Then to learn that you've lost them through a horrible, horrible act like the loss of teen boy Stephen Smith. Was he targeted because he's gay? Was he in a relationship with someone that wanted to keep it a secret? Is that why he was killed? What happened that night? Can you imagine Karen Stark not really knowing what happened to your child? I can't think of anything worse. We know, Nancy, that when it comes to children and that kind of death, a premature death, your children are not supposed to die before you. They're supposed to outlive you. So torturous for her and not knowing details and really having that instinct

that only a mother has, that something happened, that it was different, that she really needed to know what the true facts were. So I think I can't think of anything worse than what you went through, honestly, and I'm so sorry. Sandy Smith speaking out now that Bland Richter, the law firm, has pushed her GoFundMe to get justice for her son. Dr. Michelle Dupree personally oversaw the autopsy. It had to be so incredibly disappointing at the time, where even people within the investigation in the pathologist's office did not agree on your son's death. Right. And it was, I know the mate team, you know, tried, but they're not homicide investigators. So there was only little that they could really do. But my biggest problem was sled had his body and just turned it back over to the highway patrol, no one that it was not a hit and run.

So I mean, it was his death investigation was screwed up from the beginning. And nobody answered my calls, you know. So, I said, well, I'll write the Department of Justice. I'll write FBI. I'll write whoever I have to. Because his death investigation is not getting the attention it needs. And here we are, eight years later, going on nine soon, and he's human. No matter whether he was gay, straight, I didn't care. But he was my son,

and I loved him. And somebody took him from me. And I was going to fight. And I will fight until I take my last breath. The struggle for eight years to get the second autopsy had to take a horrible, horrible toll on you. It's been hard and struggle. But now that I've gotten that second autopsy and a new team working his case, I'm still a little bit more at ease, but that part of my heart, I'll never get back. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is Todd G. Shipley, digital cybercrime expert, former detective sergeant, author of Investigating Internet Crimes, an introduction to solving crimes in cyberspace. Todd Shipley, thank you for being with us. You can find him at darkintel.info.

Todd, how could, and it's eight years later, how could digital evidence help improve what happened in the Stephen Smith case? Well, from reviewing the publicly available documents, there's a lot that probably could be determined from it. The phone still exists. I don't know where the other items still exist. The iPad, the computer that are listed as evidence. But I didn't find reports of law enforcement actually going through those things to determine any potential probable cause for why this occurred.

There's a whole lot of evidence I think I can glean from it. It was unfortunate, though, that in reviewing the reports, that they made requests six months later for some of the information from Verizon that should have been appropriately requested at the time because the records they were looking for don't last on those networks very long. And so I didn't see a great effort by law enforcement to identify the potential for this digital evidence to show where he was that night. And the cell phone is going to show that.

And I know there was some looking at his social media, too. There's a whole lot of information that was not obtained that could be, you know, very instrumental in identifying what occurred that night. Wow. Okay. Straight out to Dr. Kenneth Kinsey, forensic expert in the Murdoch murder trial, former county chief deputy in Orangeburg, and now owner-operator of Kinsey & Associates, LLC. Dr. Kinsey, what do you make of that? Is there any way to put Humpty Dumpty back together again eight years later? Nancy, it's always salvageable, and someone knows some details.

Definitely the computer work and the data on those devices is always there. I mean, it does go away, but but I mean, there are people that know. And as I've said all along, there's someone out there that knows the details of this. But that someone has been out there all along to Ronnie Richter. The someone that knows what happened to Stephen Smith has been out there for eight years and hasn't come forward. So how are we going to dig him up now, Ronnie? Well, I think it's got to be the worst kept secret in Hampton County. So whether it's one or more people who are involved in this, it's a secret that would be too big to keep. So we know that whoever was involved has told other people. And I think the push here is that with as much pressure as you can apply,

get someone to break finally. I mean, if there are people out there with material information and they're not forthcoming, they could face their own charges for obstruction. So that's kind of the approach. When we got engaged with Sandy, and we'd met her a long time ago with the Satterfield family, and she broke our hearts. But when we finally got engaged, the approach was, let's just try to start from zero.

Let's exhume his body. Let's get the best team we can, Dr. DeGree, Dr. Kinsey. Let's start as if this was the beginning of the investigation. And I will say that SWAT has poured all of its resources back into this. We know that they're engaged. And hopefully with time and pressure, somebody's going to break. Man, I hope you're right. And, of course, there's always the rumors swirling

that somehow the Murdoch family is involved. And there are so many dead bodies connected to the Murdoch family. And let's just say it's not a leap of faith to think that somehow they're involved, especially with Stephen's body being found not too far from Moselle, the Murdoch hunting lodge. But so far, that's all it is. Rumors. You can't try a case on rumors. And everyone's searching for answers, including Stephen's mother, Miss Sandy Smith.

What do you make of it, Sandy? Well, when I first heard that it was the Murdoch boys, there's a bunch of Murdoch boys. What do you make of it, Sandy? would even be associated with my son. I mean, Stephen and Stephanie went to school with Buster, and then Paul's name come up. I never even knew Paul existed. So it was like, when rumors start, there's a source behind the rumors. And maybe the person who started the rumor knows more than anybody else. Well, that's true. So as you're saying, as Ronnie Richter is saying, if the rumor is not true, and there's a very big chance it's not true, we can't confirm it.

You have to look at who started that rumor, pointing to a Murdoch being involved, Buster specifically, who has denied any involvement, and figure out why that person is trying to point at Buster Murdoch. Because, again, it's all just rumors, Ms. Smith. I have no facts. All I have is people telling me and telling the world. They're putting up, and I don't see the reason why you would ruin somebody's reputation but my thing is about the murdochs is you had eight years so far but if somebody would have brought my son's name up into a homicide, I would be doing everything I could to clear his name. And they did nothing until SLED reopened the case and they still didn't say anything.

And then it was when SLED was making the announcement that it was a homicide that Buster comes up with a stupid letter. The letter was him saying that he didn't have nothing to do with Steven's death. You had eight years to do that. And you wait until attention's on Steven to write that stupid letter. I don't even know if he wrote it. I think Jim wrote it, but. And then you're going to get on TV, you know. It just makes no sense. You had eight years to do that. I would have been clearing

my child's name. I keep sweeping it under the rug. And I felt they were really heartless by doing that to take away from Stephen. So now all of a sudden you want to clear your name? Why didn't you do that at the beginning when your son's name come up the first time? Well, Jennifer Wood, director of research at Fitz News, who's been on the case from the very beginning. Jennifer, it may have had to do with the last thing Alex Murdoch or Maggie wanted to do is speak out and bring attention to themselves in any way, because all of Alex Murdoch's dirty laundry would then be forced into the public. He wanted to just keep his head down and keep doing drugs.

That's a really good point. I mean, that could be exactly why they didn't say anything. Another issue, Jennifer Wood, joining us from Fitznews.com, is the whole jury tampering claim is slowing down the SLED investigation into the death of Stephen Smith. Would you agree with that? I would hope SLED has enough agents to handle both investigations simultaneously, but it does seem to be slowing things down quite a bit. Ms. Smith, I can't help but believe that a jury tampering investigation, which is going to require an evidentiary hearing, which means both sides have to get ready and go to court with witnesses. That's going to be a big deal.

I don't know if that will be open court or in camera. We'll ask Ronnie Richter that. In camera means behind closed doors with the judge. But I know that you feel very strongly that with a second autopsy, you are going to get justice. Is that correct? I do believe that with all my heart. My attorney, Eric, talked to Chief Keel and he reassured us that they are still working this case.

It's just been slow because of the jury tampering stuff. And then so SLEC was taken off of Stephen to interview all those people, the jurors. But MFR, I know that they're doing what they can to get this solved. And I know they have a grand jury in panel. And I'm just waiting on that one little truth to pop out so an arrest can't be made. And what are your thoughts about the fact that there are two people of interest right now? really don't know if they had anything to do with it, but I know there's somebody out there that knows something and I know that they're probably parents now. And they wouldn't want this to go through what I'm going through. And I don't want them to go through what I'm going through, but now they need to

put their self in my shoes because you might be a mother, you might be a father. And I pray that if you know something that you're gonna say something, to just expose it. I mean, he mattered, Steven mattered. And it's like ripped our family apart, but we're still holding on for justice. I would like to thank all of the people who have supported Stephen and are still supporting Stephen's story.

Jennifer Wood, what can you tell me about two possible persons of interest in the Stephen Smith murder? So we have heard that the investigation has focused on two possible persons of interest. Whether or not they've gone in front of a grand jury, we don't know because grand jury proceedings are secret. But, you know, I think this case is going to come down to somebody saying something. Somebody knows what happened that night. I think more than one somebody knows. Ronnie Richter, agree or disagree? 100% agree. Yeah, more than one person knows. We've heard the same thing about two persons of interest. The grand jury is a star chamber in South Carolina, so we would never know when it's going to happen. But yeah, the hope is, again, that somebody breaks and finally does the right thing and shares what they know.

Todd Shipley, digital cybercrime expert. If there are two POIs, persons of interest, can't we go back to that night and trace their phones to find out where they were? Well, that ends up being a little more difficult because we don't have those probably in evidence now. And people tend to change their phones, you know, over time. So we may not be able to have that kind of evidence on them specifically. But the existing phone is there and the contacts in that phone are there. There's a lot of information that I haven't seen yet that I don't understand why law enforcement isn't tracing it down. Because that's going to show the phone will show where he was and who he had contact with because we all live and

die by our phones now and so that information is going to be there if we look for it and we haven't seen it yet. Dr. Michelle Dupree joining us again who oversaw the new autopsy on teen boy Stephen Smith. You know, there's never a dull moment, let me say, in the Alex Murdoch saga. There's always a new twist and turn. And they are going to be gnashing their teeth and twitching their tails to get a new trial for Alex Murdoch. I bet you anything, after I sat through his testimony in the first trial, I guarantee he will not take the stand a second time. But Dr. Dupree, regarding Stephen Smith, you say there's a nearly eight inch fracture to his head. What do you believe it was caused by? Nancy, I believe that it was caused by something on a vehicle. Again, a ladder, a extended mirror, even maybe something like a hook on a wrecker, something on a vehicle,

but not the vehicle itself. Because he wasn't harmed from the head down. It was just, if he was hit by a car, there would be trauma all over his body, but it's just the skull fracture. Well, isn't that by definition a hit and run? It is. And so that is, that is the proper designation for the death certificate. It is just, it is at so that is that is the proper designation for the death certificate it is just it is atypical in this case atypical why because the vehicle itself did not hit him i don't know if i agree with that ronnie rector i mean if a part of the vehicle hits somebody that's still uh it's hit and run well it's also called leaving the scene of an accident involving grave bodily injury which is a very serious felony in south carolina so it's also called leaving the scene of an accident involving grave bodily injury, which is a very serious felony in South Carolina.

It's also called vehicular homicide. Has everybody lost their mind? Vehicular homicide. We're saying the same thing. It's a very serious felony in South Carolina. And whether there was intent to murder Stephen or not is a different issue. It would be impossible not to know that you struck him, not to know that you caused serious injury. Oh, Ronnie Richter, don't tune up, please, that same tired song.

I didn't mean to. No intent. You run somebody over. They're lying in the street, the road, dying in the middle of the night. And you take off. Oh, H-E-L-L-N-O. A jury's going to get that person. No matter how much they cry and carry on, they didn't mean to.

They have put his mother through hell for eight years. And that's exactly where they're going to go. So Jennifer Wood, Director of Research, Fit News, is led really on Stephen Smith's case. Do I need to light another fire under somebody's tail? I think keep lighting the fires but you know I do think they are actively working this one. Okay Nancy please jump in Karen Stark. Well I think the most relevant thing here is what his mom said which is that Stephen matters. He mattered and he matters. That's really important. Nobody paid enough attention to this boy.

And that's, it's just not acceptable. And it's excellent that they're doing it now because he matters. He does matter. We wait as the evidence unfolds. Goodbye, friend.