Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Murder by SLEEPWALKING!

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

Can you kill someone while you are asleep? That's been the defense in many notable murder cases. Today, Nancy Grace and her panel look at the possibilities, including the prosecution of Scott Falater. He was accused of stabbing his wife, Yarmila, dozens of times and shoving her body into the family pool. He says he was sleepwalking. Was he?Joining Nancy Grace today: James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective, Swat officer Lawyer www.ShelnuttLawFirm.com Dr. Jenn Mann - Marriage and Family Therapist, Host 'Couples Therapy' on VH1, "The Dr. Jenn Show” on Sirius XM, Author: "The Relationship Fix: Dr. Jenn’s 6-Step Guide to Improving Communication, Connection and Intimacy"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips  Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com Dr. Mark R. Pressman - Sleep and Scientific Evidence Specialist, Pressman Sleep and Science Forensics dot com, Author: "Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior, and Reliable Scientific Evidence" Kristy Mazurek - Emmy Award-winning Investigative Reporter, President of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Murder requires specific intent. It can be implied or specific. But there must be intent to do the act. But what about a recent spate of murders committed while the killer is sound asleep? And believe it or not,

some jurors are actually buying it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Am I understanding this? A jury actually acquits someone of murder because they claim that they sleptwalked through the entire ordeal. First of all, take a listen to this. I'm 911. What's your emergency? There's something going on with a young boy and my son-in-law. We need help. We need ambulance and police. Please.

Okay. We have a dearly emergency. There's a young boy, my grandson, four years old. We can't wake him up. The father is locked up in a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming. Wow, that must be some sound sleeper because everybody is screaming and daddy's still asleep.

Listen to a little bit more of that 911 call. And tell me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's up there screaming. Her husband is in his study. He won't come out. And now there's a young boy, his son, four years old. We can't wake him up. Okay. And I don't know what's going on. We need emergency as fast as possible. Sir? Yes. Say, I'm going to follow with me, okay? I will. Some information for you. Someone else Yes. Stay on the phone with me, okay? I will. I have some information for you.

Someone else is going to get him on the way, okay? Okay, sir, how old is your, is this your grandson? My grandson is four years old. My daughter is trying to break into a door. We don't know if he's alive or not alive. Well, I can answer that much. He's dead. The four-year-old little boy is dead you can hear screaming and wailing in the

background uh with me an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again but first of all let me ask cheryl mccollum director of the cold case research institute joining us forensics expert the defense says daddy's asleep hold on chatellite down. Christy Mazurek with me, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter. Christy, is that correct? Well, you know, if you'd like to believe the defense team, that's what they're claiming. Sleepwalking, right? But these are some tragic tales to this evening. In fact, the daughter, Alexis Alexis had to fight her father off.

This is just almost too much for me to take in. Guys, let me finish introducing our panel. With me, Dr. Mark R. Pressman, Sleep and Scientific Evidence Specialist, PressmanSleepAndScienceForensics.com and author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior, and Reliable Scientific Evidence and FYI. He's an expert on many of these sleepwalking cases.

James Shelnut, 27 years on law enforcement, police force, now lawyer. You can find him at ShelnutLawFirm.com. Dr. Jen Mann, therapist, host on VH1. She's the host of Dr. Jen Show on SiriusXM. She's an author of The Relationship Fix. Wow, I don't have enough paper to give you her resume, but Dr. Jen Mann, therapist, is joining us. As I said earlier, director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

Let me know when her satellite issue is up. You missed your first question, Cheryl. I hope you weren't asleep. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Let me know when her satellite issue is up. You missed your first question, Cheryl. I hope you weren't asleep. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert. Dr. Tim Gallagher. I can't wait to hear what he's got to say about this. He's the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, and you can find him at pathcaremed.com. And I already went to our Emmy Award winner investigative reporter, Christy Mazurek, President of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications, and I would call this a crisis. Cheryl McCollum, I don't know if you could hear us, we could not

hear you, but I just played part of a 911 call. And just for you, Cheryl, I'm going to play it again. Take a listen to this 911 call. And just for you, Cheryl, I'm going to play it again. Take a listen to this 911 call. 911 call. There's something going on with a young boy and my son-in-law. We need help. We need ambulance and police, please. Okay. We have a dearly emergency. There's a young boy, my grandson, four years old. We can't wake him up. The father is locked up in a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming.

And more of that 911 call, please, Jack. And tell me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's up there screaming. Her husband is in his study. He won't come out. And now there's a young boy, his son, four years old. We can't wake him up.

Okay. And I don't know what's going on. We need emergency as fast as possible. Sir? Yes. Stay on the phone with me, okay? I will. I have some information for you.

Someone else is going to get him on the way, okay? Okay, sir, how old is your, is this your grandson? My grandson is four years old. My daughter's trying to break into a door. We don't know if he's alive or not alive. Stay on the phone. Are you kidding me? Cheryl McCollum, he needs to go break that door down.

You hear screaming and wailing in the background. Cheryl McCollum, I'm going to go to Christy Missouri in just a moment for all the facts. But are you buying this? Are you actually buying this? That the perp is asleep. He needs to break the door down. And no, I don't believe he's asleep. You can hear everybody in that house screaming and having a fit and calling for more help. And he's going to sleep through it. I don't buy it. I mean, Cheryl, as you know, I have slept walkeded. I sleep talk. I sleepwalk.

But it doesn't take a lot to wake me up. I don't get very far is my point. I just find it very difficult to believe you can go in a room, lock the door, murder your four-year-old child while everybody's still trying to bam the door down and screaming and you sleep through it all to chrissy missouric investigative reporter and president of successful strategies pr and crisis communications let me just start with this case start at the beginning pick it up at the 911 call what happened so it all starts with the daughter blasting into the parents' bedroom saying, you know, mommy, how old is the daughter? Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

How old is the daughter? Mid-teens, right? He has two older children, 13 and a 10-year-old. Okay. So the teen girl blasts in. Into her parents' bedroom. Okay. Saying, mommy, help us.

Help us. Daddy's trying to hurt us. She tells police that her dad came into her room that night wearing a Halloween mask. Uh-uh. No, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yes. Stop everything.

Did you hear that, Jackie? I did. Did you hear that? I did. Okay. Wearing a Halloween mask. It will be a cold day in H-E-double-L that I believe this guy slept through finding a Halloween mask. First of all, right there.

How am I going to find a Halloween costume? That's not going to happen until next Halloween. At spirithalloween.com. When I go out and buy one, The Lord knows where a Halloween costume is. But he gets a Halloween costume and puts the mask on around his head. Correct. Okay. I just wanted to make sure I understood that.

Go ahead. Chrissy, Missouri. I can't wait to hear what happens next. So she's asleep. She's asleep. And she wakes up dazed and confused to her dad on top of her wearing a Halloween mask, pushing her head between her bed and a wall. What do you mean on top of her? On top of her to molest her? On top of her to kill her? To try to smother her.

Pushing her head between? The bed and the wall. You know, if your bed's up to the corner where the wall meets the joint, he's trying to push her head in between the bed and the wall, trying to smother her. She passes out. Moments later, he screams from her brother. She sees her father attacking her brother. She bites him, tries to rip him off of the brother. That's when she goes to get her mom. The mom thinks that her husband's having a nervous breakdown and is unaware how serious four-year-old Blake's injuries are.

That's when the grandpa gets riled up and calls the police. Now remember, I told you, the daughter Alexis fights her father off of her brother, and the dad takes off Halloween mask and toe and barricades himself in the home office. So he leaves the bedroom, Christy Mazurik, and goes and hides in the home office? That's right. That's right. Okay. You know, to Dr. Mark R. Pressman, sleep scientific evidence specialist, author of Sleepwalking Criminal Behavior and Reliable Scientific Evidence. Dr. Pressman, there is no way that this guy is sleepwalking. I don't care what science may say.

And, you know, I just don't. How could he do all that and still be asleep? Well, to say that he's asleep is not exactly true. This is not normal sleep. This is sort of a weird mixture between deep sleep and waking that occurs because of some problems in the brain of sleepwalkers. So sleepwalkers, you would not expect them to act just like anyone else who's asleep. crime stories with nancy grace guys take a listen to our friends at wral this is erin hartness joseph mitchell is accused of doing something almost unimaginable to most people deputies believe he suffocated his four-year-old son, Blake, and then stabbed himself multiple times.

A search warrant says Mitchell's other two children say they woke up with something over their faces and had to fend off their father. Lieutenant Stan Harris says at some point during the attack, Mitchell's wife ran to another part of the house trying to get help for her children. A search warrant says the family was in deep financial trouble and their home was about to be seized by a bank. Whether that played a major role or minor role we're just not at liberty to say right now. Court documents say Mitchell's wife didn't know the extent of the financial trouble. Search warrants show investigators took computers from the home along with copies of life insurance policies including policies for all

three children investigators also took a mask and a knife hold on I can't write that fast I need to learn shorthand but what's really jumping out of me um Dr Jen Mann a wife had no idea about the finances why is that still happening in 2021 B I heard the word life insurance connected to policy. All right. So, and I heard financial troubles. Did you hear all that, Dr. Jen? I sure did, Nancy. And you would be amazed in this day and age at how many couples organize their finances

where one person, usually the person who everyone decides is kind of quote unquote better at those things, handles them. And the other person is in the dark. And I always encourage couples that even if one person is handling the logistics of actually pressing the button to send the check or actually literally writing the check, that the other person be involved so they know what's going on. But you'd be amazed at how often one partner is in the job. And, you know, Jackie's over here rolling her eyes again. Let me just say, it's not always the woman. Do you know my brother with a successful career, very successful career, brags he doesn't know how to use an ATM. And his wife handles all the finances.

When he says that, I'm so proud of my children. They just turned 13, Dr. Jean, and they all look at each other. And it's not a secret. I give them a lot of grief about it. But it happens. He brags he does not know how to use the ATM. I'd give him 50 cents and tell him to go buy some candy. Really.

So, okay, Dr. Jen, that's the first thing. But Shelnut, Jim Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case, now lawyer, life insurance policy. Did you hear that? It was like a siren blaring in my ear. Yeah. Life insurance policies on the children and the wife. So, yeah, I mean, you know, motive, obviously, as you know,

doesn't have to be proven in a case. But when you have a case like this where somebody's saying, oh, I didn't mean to do it or it was sleepwalking, being able to show a potential motive like this is huge. You're in a financial despair. You're about to lose everything. There is a way for you to get this money. And it's through a life insurance policy. I think that goes a long ways towards helping a jury make a decision, at least if it's a rational jury. And to you, medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher, right in your backyard in the shadows of Disney. I don't know if you recall this over in Celebration where the father was going under with all of his businesses. He was committing fraud on the government for like one of those muscle rehab places where after you are injured, you're supposed to get rehabbed. He was cheating the government like nobody's business.

They found out. Everything started going down, down, down. He drove straight down to Celebration, Florida, and murdered his wife and children. Rather than anybody find out, they're all going bust. This is not a new story, Dr. Gallagher. Remember that case? It was recent. Oh, absolutely. And if anyone has been to Celebration, it's a very high exclusive neighborhood in the disney area where houses

are millions and millions of dollars each and of course image would be one of the main pressing factors there if you're going to live you know dr gallagher i got myself and the children and my husband all in the car on a vacation i had an underlying motive I went down there to see this location and see. And it's exactly as you just said. That's what we call where I come from living high on the hog, way too high on the hog. And then when it all started falling apart, it was better to kill his family than admit financial ruin. I want to go back to a special guest, Dr. Mark R. Pressman. Dr. Pressman, I want you to take a listen to our cut number nine. This is Ariel Clay at WRAL. Christine Perolini broke down when recalling the night her four-year-old son was suffocated. I was scared to touch him at first because he didn't look right. I touched his arm. He did not feel right.

Joseph Mitchell's attorneys say he was sleepwalking the night of the incident and questioned Pirolini about trouble Mitchell had at night before Blake's death, including one time when he reared back to hit her. Y'all weren't in a fight or anything like that? No. He was asleep, wasn't he? I believe so, yes. So interesting to you, Dr. Pressman, the only time he has these episodes where he commits acts in his sleep, they're always domestic violence. You don't think that's a coincidence?

Well, it certainly could be. My approach is very different. I want to know whether his behaviors that night are consistent with what we know sleepwalkers can or cannot do. And so typically sleepwalking violence, the sleepwalker does not go to the victim. You know, all this sort of cartoonish stuff about the sleepwalker walking with his arms out and maybe a knife in his hand and, you know, yelling kill, kill, kill while he looks for revenge or something. That doesn't happen in almost all of the cases of sleepwalking violence. The victim actually comes to the sleepwalker. Sleepwalker is up and about and the victim basically tries to get them to turn around or they block them or they do something and they accidentally trigger sleepwalking violence, which is actually defensive because the sleepwalker doesn't recognize sleepwalker can't recognize faces. They don't know who this person is. This person is just a potential threat that they have

to deal with on a very primitive level. And also, there are no reported cases ever of violence of more than one person at a time. The fact that he came into the room, very unusual and abnormal. The fact that there are three victims all at the same time has never been reported and is not consistent with what we know about sleep. And coincidentally, although I couldn't get you to commit to a coincidence, very wise of you, doctor. Coincidentally, there were three life insurance policies as well. Okay, Dr. Pressman, I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for this. Let's hear cut 10.

This is Tamara Gibbs, ABC 11. The jurors we spoke with are so concerned about the public's reaction to their verdict that they asked to remain anonymous, and they tell us if manslaughter had been on the table, Joseph Mitchell would still be in jail. On one side of the courtroom, a relieved defendant. On the other, a grieving mother. And inside the jury box, 12 conflicted men and women. It was the reasonable doubt that they'd gotten this man off. This juror who asked us not to reveal her name or show her face says initially

there were a few holdouts, but ultimately the panel agreed Joseph Mitchell did not act with malice, intent, or premeditation that's required for a first or second degree murder conviction. Our justice system failed this family. I don't think the jury failed. I think we made the decision we had to make based on the laws and the instructions we were given. Well, they can tell themselves that when they try to put their head on the pillow. To you, Cheryl McCollum, you know, when a jury or a juror has to hide their face when they leave the courthouse, when they don't want their name known, they know they did the wrong thing.

Here's what drives me crazy about what she said. She doesn't believe her own verdict. Why in the world would you say there's reasonable doubt when there's not with you? That's insane to me. This guy did not go to bed with a mask and a knife. He waited until the wife was asleep and everybody in the house was asleep. He went and attacked two children and then fled after the murder, locking himself in a room for self-protection and then claimed, oh, I didn't know what I was doing. I was sleepwalking.

And my question for that is, had he ever sleepwalked before? Had he sought medical help for it? What steps did he take to prevent this? I bet nothing, because it was preplanned. I bet nothing, because there was no previous sleepwalking problem, unless he tried to pull one over on his wife and pretend on an earlier occasion he had been sleepwalking. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

For those of you that did not hear it, the jury found this guy not guilty. Blake Mitchell, the little boy who lost his life just four years old, his dad, Joseph Anthony Mitchell, 50 there in Durham, North Carolina, has walked free. But that's really just the tip of the iceberg. And, you know, and I want to go back out to you, James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case law enforcement, now lawyer. James, the judge specifically instructs the jury in every single criminal felony case. You are to use and apply your common sense. Almost verbatim. And you are to reach a verdict to a moral and reasonable certainty.

Moral and reasonable certainty. Reasonable head. Moral heart. In other words, if you believe it, if you believe he did this thing, then the state has carried their burden. Yes or no, Shelnut? Oh, I agree 100%. And, you know, I find it odd for this juror to say, oh, well, if manslaughter would have been on the table, then he wouldn't have left the courthouse. He'd have went to jail. You know, malice of forethought can be formed in the blink

of an eye. It doesn't take days or weeks or hours of planning. It can happen in an instant. And quite frankly, sometimes you just get bad juries. You get bad juries that don't use common sense. You get bad juries that may not understand what they're doing. And you get bad juries. You get bad juries that don't use common sense. You get bad juries that may not understand what they're doing. And you get bad juries that sometimes are anti-police, anti-prosecution. And it just seems like this was a bad jury that made a bad decision on a case where a man should have been convicted of murder. This jury reeks. Guys, that was in North Carolina. Let's cross the country to Phoenix, Arizona. Take a listen to our cut one. This is Breonna Whitney.

Just heard her yelling and you could hear her rolling around in the rocks. Scott Felater's next door neighbors jolted away. We went outside to see if we could hear if somebody needed help or something. And then the screaming quit. Police got to the house to find Falater waiting for them. His wife, Yarmila, dead in the pool, 44 stab wounds to her body. Falater told them he had been sleepwalking and couldn't remember anything. But the next door neighbor told police he watched Falater stab his wife,

drag her to the pool, hold her head underwater, and then... Quieting the dog, going up the stairs, turning on a light, taking clothes off, going down to the garage, getting things out of the garage. He stashed the bloody knife and his bloody clothes in his car, all while his 12- and 15-year-old children were asleep in the house. You're hearing our friends there at True Crime Arizona, another sleepwalking murder. Okay, guys, 44 stab wounds. Take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition, our cut two. It was a murder that shocked the nation. The notorious sleepwalking killer, Scott Felater, stabbed his wife 44 times, then drowned her in the pool. His defense? He was sleepwalking. When Phoenix cops got there, they found Falater at the top of the stairs in his pajamas. He made remarks to the extent of, what's going on? What are you doing in my house? That is all about Scott Flader.

Let me go back to Christy Misurik, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter. What happened in Arizona? It depends on what tale you want to believe, whether you want to believe Scott Flader or the neighbors that watched a methodical murderer in action. Let's start with the know, as that. Let's start with the neighbors, Christy. Right. So they hear some noises in the neighbor's backyard and look over the fence to find Yarmila laying on the ground.

They watch Scott walk very calmly back into the house. And as mentioned in the clip, you know, turn lights off and on as he's making his way through the house, changing clothes. But one detail that came out in testimony is that Greg Coons, the neighbor watched Scott for later done a pair of gloves before he comes back outside and drags his wife's body over to the pool and drowns her. The very critical fact. Removes the gloves, takes off his clothes, puts them in a Tupperware container along with the bloody knife. When the cops show up, he's standing at the top of the stairs with a crisp white T-shirt on.

Okay, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert, jump in, feet first. Pre-meditation. Again, everything he did after the murder was to save himself. So you're talking about a calculated, I've got to have gloves. I've got to drown her to make sure she's dead because she's not dead from the stab wounds. Now I've got to hide the clothes that I was wearing when I committed the crime. I'm going to change clothes so I look fresh and clean so they'll never suspect me. This is not somebody out of it asleep that

doesn't know what they're doing. These are criminals acting out crimes we see every day the exact same way. I mean, don't you think, Dr. Tim Gallagher, that after 44 stabs, the jarring of the stabs, crunching through bone, cartilage, tendons, muscle, human organs would have woken him up? Well, you know, my patients really are not, you know, alive. But I would think that by using common sense, which all of us on the panel have, that yes, one stab wound, one poke, even a poke in the eye or a sharp poke in the chest would wake me up. Certainly 44 stab wounds would wake me up. No, I mean the defendant, the husband, the jarring motion of 44 stabs dragging your wife around, changing clothes.

And then when the police get there, you're like, what? What happened? I mean, to Dr. Mark Pressman joining us, author of Sleepwalking Criminal Behavior and Reliable Scientific Evidence, I must make a confession. My nephew, a real brainiac, as a child would sleepwalk. And I remember one episode, we all went to Jackson Hole, Wyoming for my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. And that night, my nephew was sleeping in the room with me, and I heard the door opening. And I looked up and immediately sprung up. This is when I was still a prosecutor. I ran out in the hall and there is my little nephew, maybe nine years old, walking down the hall. And I called his name and he didn't turn around. I called his name again.

He didn't turn around. I ran to him and got in front of him and grabbed him by the shoulders. He looked so afraid and he ran back to the room, jumped in the bed and hunched up and put a pillow over his head. He was asleep. But when I touched his shoulders, he was groggy. But he ran back to the room because he looked around in the hall and didn't understand what was happening around him. But by the time he got back to the room, he was awakened from his sleepwalking. So explain to me, you're the expert, Dr. Pressman, how someone could conceivably stab their wife 44 times and claim they were asleep. Wow. I was the prosecution expert, so I don't think he did. At trial, I presented 60 different instances of behaviors he had. Remember, this trial was very unusual

cause the next door neighbor was in the backyard watching what was going on for a good 20 minutes. The lights go on and off. That's evidence that you never have in cases like this. So the important thing to know about a real sleepwalker is real sleepwalker does not have uh what we call higher cognitive function real sleepwalker cannot form a memory cannot retrieve a memory a real sleepwalker cannot plan a real sleepwalker cannot form an intent real sleepwalker has no social uh social abilities all

that part of the brain that has those, you know, where those abilities reside, it's turned off in the sleepwalker. It's deactivated. So if the sleepwalker does something that can only happen with that part of the brain activated, then they're not asleep. They're not sleepwalking. They're not asleep. They're not sleepwalking. They're awake. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, we are talking about murders committed while the defendant is allegedly asleep. You were just hearing about Scott Felator. You'll be happy to know that he was actually convicted. But I want to talk to you about another case, the case of Deborah Lazarine. To Christy Mazurek, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter, president of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications. Tell me about the case of Deborah Lazarine. So this is, again, the children are involved, and they're really the ones that kind of perpetuate the 911 call.

Raymond Lazarine calls his son Nathan. It's the middle of the day, afternoon, urging him to come to the house. He said he's having a dream that he shot and killed his wife. It was not a dream. Nathan arrives. He finds his mother, Deborah, dead on the floor, shell casings scattered all around her. She's shot a half dozen times, two shots to her head, one in her back. He finds his father in the bedroom with a gun. Raymond Lazarine, when the police arrive, he tells him he doesn't know what was happening. He was dreaming.

But here's the thing. You know, when the cops talked to Nathan, Nathan said, look, my father's threatened my mom in the past. He's very controlling. We never filed a complaint. Didn't know if it would rise to this. And at the time of this shooting, Raymond Lazarin was under psychiatric care and taking prescriptions for psychotic episodes. Straight back out to Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Didn't OJ Simpson have a dream that he killed Nicole Brown?

I believe so. And let me tell you something, Nancy. It's funny how these dreams work. If it weren't so tragic. I guess they're all clairvoyant, Cheryl, because all these dreams come true. They do kill their wives. And they know exactly how they killed them. It wasn't like, oh, man, I had a horrible dream.

She fell off a cliff. No, you knew you shot her. Amazing. And you just happen to be sitting there with a weapon in your hand when your son finally shows up. I mean, it's just baffling. And, again, if it weren't so tragic, it would be laughable. The level of BS that this arises to is just unbelievable. Everybody on this panel that is married to a man knows that most of the time they couldn't find a

mask or gloves or bins or phone numbers. They always come to us, but not these. Much less a mop and a broom. Much less a mop and a broom, But not these guys. Oh, he found a Halloween mask and it wasn't Halloween. The other one has a pair of gloves sitting on ready. The other one's got bins he can put bloody clothes in. Garbage. It's complete garbage. Complete. I can't believe juries are falling for this.

Guys, we're talking about the case of Raymond Lazarine, his wife, Deborah Lazarine. Take a listen to our cut 13. Kelly Hartung at ABC's America This Morning. This morning, an unusual murder trial is underway in Texas for a man who blames his sleepwalking for the death of his wife. In December 2013, Raymond Lazarine called his son and told him he had just had a dream that he shot and killed his wife of 35 years, Deborah Lazarine. But it wasn't a dream. Lazarine admits he shot Deborah half a dozen times. He claims it was involuntary on account that he was asleep. There are other witnesses over there that have seen the manifestation of his sleep disorder and we thought that would be important

for the jury to know. Joining me, special guest Dr. Mark R. Pressman, author of Sleep sleep disorder, and we thought that would be important for the jury to know. Joining me, special guest, Dr. Mark R. Pressman, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior, and Reliable Scientific Evidence, and an expert witness in the case against Raymond Lazarine. What can you tell us, doctor? Well, first of all, they got it a little bit wrong. It actually was not a sleepwalking defense. It was a disorder that may appear externally very similar, but is even rarer and actually scarier. It's called REM behavior disorder. REM is rapid eye movement sleep. Most people are aware that's the kind of sleep when you typically have your

vivid dreaming and okay wait a minute let me understand how finally you're splitting this hair you're saying this is not a sleepwalking defense this is a an rem defense you have REM rapid eye movement so everyone when you're asleep everyone has REM sleep okay and one one brief he is saying he was asleep when he killed he's claiming he was in REM sleep at the time and there's one could you tell me what difference does that make he's still claiming he was asleep when he did it well it's uh there's an enormous difference in why it occurs and what kind of behaviors someone who has REM behavior disorder can have. One of the least known things about normal REM sleep is that people who are dreaming are unable to move. For all intents and purposes, everybody who dreams is essentially paralyzed while they dream.

If you weren't paralyzed, you might be able to essentially act out your dream. And just think of the last dream you had. What would happen if you acted that out? So what he's saying is that for some reason, a problem in the brain that we actually know what is wrong in the brain in these cases, that the mechanism that causes the paralysis didn't work. And for some reason, he got up and retrieved the gun and searched for his wife, et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Pressman. But none of that is possible. Yes, I'm sorry.

I'd like to ask you a very simple, this is a yes, no. Doctor, in the case of... You must be a prosecutor asking me a question like that. Yes, I've got you on the hot seat. You're on cross in my mind anyway. Yeah, you want me to answer yes or no? I never answer yes or no. Dr. Pressman, isn't it true that in the case of Raymond Lazarin charged in the murder of his wife, Deborah Lazarin, in that case, you were an expert witness? And isn't it true that at the time of the death of the wife, Lazarin claimed he was asleep? Well, he claimed he was since dreaming his sleep.

Yes. He claimed he was in a dream when he was since dreaming his sleep yes he claimed he was in a dream when he did it yes yes now i understand you're saying or i think i do anyway they didn't teach me this at law school you'd have to be an md for this but i think what you're saying is let me throw this to you dr jen mann the parsing of the words, the splitting of the hair, is that the defendant claimed he had an REM, rapid eye movement, problem. But the reality is he still claims he was asleep when he murdered his wife. Are you understanding that the same way I'm understanding it? I am, but I don't know that this guy had a rapid eye movement problem. I think he had a domestic violence problem because there is a history of other incidents where he was violent with his wife.

And as a therapist who I don't specialize in sleep disorders, but I have a long history working with domestic violence survivors. That's what I look at. And there is an incident where his wife asked for a glass of water. And next thing she knew knew he was on top of her with a gun under her chin to you uh christy mzurik emmy award-winning investigative reporter isn't it true that this defendant the husband raymond lazarene had a long history of being a a nasty and hateful and abusive drunk he was an abusive alcoholic who regularly threatened his wife with violence isn't that true according to his son nathan uh he broke down too many instances to list the problem was they never called the police out of maybe their own personal fear but the father would

habitually pop these prescription medications and you know slug back a couple shots of whiskey. You know what's interesting Cheryl McCollum you know all the years that I prosecuted including domestic homicides and ag assaults and and worked at the Battered Women's Center on the hotline. So often, it's typically men, but it can be women too, blame beating their partner on alcohol. I don't buy that. It's not the alcohol's fault. Alcohol makes you more of what you are. So when women say, oh, he's a good man when he's not drinking. The problem is he ain't never not drinking. And if you drink enough, again, it heightens who you are.

If you are fun and just the life of the party, the more you drink, the more fun you are. If you're just a piece of crap who's looking for a fight, as soon as you start drinking, you're just slugging the first person you see. To you, Christy Mijuric, what happened in the case of Raymond Lazarine? He was convicted, you know. PTL. Look, we're all safer to have someone like that behind bars. You know what? And to my understanding, multiple defendants across the U.S. have gotten off scot-free, walked scot-free, claiming sleep disorder, sleepwalking. Today, we examine the case of Scott Falater, who managed to slip through the fingers of Lady Justice as compared to Mitchell and Lazarine. Long story short, all of these guys still, whether convicted or acquitted,

insist they were sleepwalking. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.